Dry Stacked Block, Surface Bonding Cement, and Xypex C-1000 Admix Quarantine Tank

[pearlharborday]

I have to lean on the side of mike here.......................Zac you did compact the ground with a hand packer or portable compactor and if so what do you think you rate is....under your slab.......your soil testing ,compaction results and total fished weight of the tank on the slab all play a part in how much steel you need....... IMHO once you have gone threw all this trouble with the bond and slab and even using mortatr.....why wouldn't someone just mortar all the blocks???..........not like your saving or shaving major time or money off the project...................JMO I mean you go threw all this then to complete in in half @$$ mode..............................make no sense.................i don't think I could have ever sold a job like that to my greenest of customers threw the years.........thne i must ask ,,since I'm not familar with your parents place......is the pond right on the property line....??????

[CygnusX-1]

I have to agree. Seems like an awful lot of work just to save on some mortar.

[koiman1950]

Well, there's MUCH MORE to it than just being in "Earthquake country". For example, adobe clay soil has a very high moisture retentiveness to is as opposed to say, sandstone or other more porous soil compositions. As such, adobe can "swell" much more, causing the soil to "heave" more. Also, as summer progresses, it can also dry out considerably more, causing separation/cracks in the soil of anywhere up to 5-6" in width, and who knows how deep! I know, just ask my ankle that I twisted while playing golf several years ago. I was walking along and my foot got caught down in a crack, causing me to strain muscle and tendons. Had to have the Marshall come and transport me back to the car in his golf cart.

Zac, I'm not condemning your construction methods here. It may work just fine for YOU, but it may not be as advantageous for others to jump off the financial "cliff" just to save the cost of some steel and concrete.

[Zac Penn]

I am not advocating that anyone do what I do. I am just doing it this way. If someone wants to copy what I do then that is up to them. From what I have read from the manufacturer is that SBC when applied at a 1/8" thickness to a dry-stacked block wall is going to much stronger than a conventionally mortared wall. So I am actually making this stronger than if I used mortar. However, this isn't going to be as strong as a block wall that was filled with concrete and rebar but it will be just fine for my application.

[epse30]

I have to lean on the side of mike here.......................Zac you did compact the ground with a hand packer or portable compactor and if so what do you think you rate is....under your slab.......your soil testing ,compaction results and total fished weight of the tank on the slab all play a part in how much steel you need....... IMHO once you have gone threw all this trouble with the bond and slab and even using mortatr.....why wouldn't someone just mortar all the blocks???..........not like your saving or shaving major time or money off the project...................JMO I mean you go threw all this then to complete in in half @$$ mode..............................make no sense.................i don't think I could have ever sold a job like that to my greenest of customers threw the years.........thne i must ask ,,since I'm not familar with your parents place......is the pond right on the property line....??????

Oh, yeah? I bet you could have......

[koiman1950]

Oh, yeah? I bet you could have......

Yeah, but knowing a bit about "pearl" he wouldn't have, not in good conscience!

[pearlharborday]

Yeah, but knowing a bit about "pearl" he wouldn't have, not in good conscience!

no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,, no comment

[Russell Peters]

I am not advocating that anyone do what I do. I am just doing it this way. If someone wants to copy what I do then that is up to them. From what I have read from the manufacturer is that SBC when applied at a 1/8" thickness to a dry-stacked block wall is going to much stronger than a conventionally mortared wall. So I am actually making this stronger than if I used mortar. However, this isn't going to be as strong as a block wall that was filled with concrete and rebar but it will be just fine for my application.

I am not sure you should be doing this either. From all of the reading I have been doing SBC is used to strengthen existing masonry walls or to create a mortarless block wall but it is not supposed to be used for the structural integrity of the block wall, i.e., you are supposed to fill the cells of the block wall with rebar and concrete in situations that require lateral strength. This would be vessels that holds water...

used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer.

[Russell Peters]

no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,, no comment

I am thinking it will only be as structurally sound as mortar when used on walls in a house or garage...

Here's a good link.

https://www.thenaturalhome.com/drystackblock.htm

[Zac Penn]

no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,, no comment

I forgot I was talking to Steve "I know everything and am never wrong" Knapp J/K

Here is something pulled directly off the Quikwall Data Sheet...


The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength. All other tests the SBC out performs the mortared wall. If we continue to have warm weather then once the pond is finished I will do a cannonball into the tank just for you Steve!

Zac

[Zac Penn]

I am not sure you should be doing this either. From all of the reading I have been doing SBC is used to strengthen existing masonry walls or to create a mortarless block wall but it is not supposed to be used for the structural integrity of the block wall, i.e., you are supposed to fill the cells of the block wall with rebar and concrete in situations that require lateral strength. This would be vessels that holds water...

Seriously Russell???? That is like me saying "I don't think killing children is acceptable", and you quoting that I said "Killing children is acceptable."

The entire quote from the Sakrete Data Sheet is...
A quality mixture of cement, lime, sand, fibers and special additives. Used to build, decorate and damproof dry stack concrete block walls. Can also be used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer."

Zac

[Russell Peters]

Seriously Russell???? That is like me saying "I don't think killing children is acceptable", and you quoting that I said "Killing children is acceptable."

The entire quote from the Sakrete Data Sheet is...
A quality mixture of cement, lime, sand, fibers and special additives. Used to build, decorate and damproof dry stack concrete block walls. Can also be used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer."

Zac

Don't be silly...show me where it says you can leave out all rebar and concrete from the cells. The strength of the product is it compressive value, nothing else...You do realize that their little blurb about structural stuff is related to anything other than the product was intended for and this product is not intended to be used on empty blocks where the said vessel is holding tons of water back. It has no lateral strength...


Please show me where it states that what you are doing is what is intended by the manufacturer...

[Russell Peters]

Yes seriously...

[icu2]

Personally I'm excited to see what works... and maybe what doesn't. I used SBC on my filter pit without
even filling the cells and it has a lot of strength.

If someone wants to try something different, I don't know if it's for any of us to give our "permission".
I think seeing what happens is a lot of the fun imho...

Zac,
I read that it was recommended that when using the SBC, that the joints specifically not be mortared, but nothing ever
really said why... do you think the concrete filled cells will have any of the effect that they weren't trying to prevent... whatever
that was?
I used it as my skim coat when putting on the Xypex Concentrate coating, and it didn't seem to harm anything.

Thanks for sharing the experiment!

[pearlharborday]

I forgot I was talking to Steve "I know everything and am never wrong" Knapp J/K

Here is something pulled directly off the Quikwall Data Sheet...


The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength. All other tests the SBC out performs the mortared wall. If we continue to have warm weather then once the pond is finished I will do a cannonball into the tank just for you Steve!

Zac

well I seem to know when I read quote[ The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength.]
that vertical strength is needed in a above ground pond......


as for the test.....not you,,,you'd fix it..................I'd want a nuetral party testing it ,,,with 2 cameras ones pointed at the tank and one pointed at you,,,so we can see your look
.....no matter what it is a hokey build that makes little to no sense,,,why anyone would go threw all that effort and not spend the extra what $15 in mortar and maybe 2 hr extra labor.......it isn't a good contracting practice........................andI'd be personally ambarrassed to even post something like that.....................alot of people having lots a questions going threw their heads right now,,,,,what is that kid up to now............going from a pretty dang well design fitration sytems to building half butt ponds to save a couple bucks........................Zac ,,,people are thinking what short cuts is he taking when building his other stuff.......


or is this all smoke screen and the next thing ya know you'll be selling and acting as a licensed applicator for this product.........................brings me back to the beginning of the ceramedia threads.................kinda the same flow going here????


guess time will see

[crsublette]

Nonetheless, whichever way this experiment goes, I'll be learning something. Thanks Zac for doing this. Interesting thread.

@ Zac ... In the first picture on post#1, that Zakki model is no longer sold, correct?

@ Russel and Pearl or anyone that knows .... In context of pond building, how much pressure can a ton of water, in a pond, exert on a wall ?? An equation provided would be very awesome where I can input variable of dimensions etc. Alot of physics here, fun stuff. My guess is we're looking at the compressive, axial loading result of water on wall near the base of the wall ? Nah, that's not right I don't think. I don't know...

[Russell Peters]

Nonetheless, whichever way this experiment goes, I'll be learning something. Thanks Zac for doing this. Interesting thread.

@ Zac ... In the first picture on post#1, that Zakki model is no longer sold, correct?

@ Russel and Pearl or anyone that knows .... In context of pond building, how much pressure can a ton of water, in a pond, exert on a wall ?? An equation provided would be very awesome where I can input variable of dimensions etc. Alot of physics here, fun stuff. My guess is we're looking at the compressive, axial loading.

((( i'm currently googling this right now, hoping i'll come across something ... good )))

Better get out your "special" pocket protector for this one...

[crsublette]

Ugh, my physic schooling is leaving me!! Pull me out coach.

[Russell Peters]

Ugh, my physic schooling is leaving me!! Pull me out coach.

Here is what happened to another block wall pond that was not properly reinforced and filled with concrete. Would SBC have saved this???

[crsublette]

Woh, alot of pressure ... maybe? SBC is the super extra strength polident of concrete, correct?