• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 39

    Thread: Koi Pond: Dispelling Myths About Concrete Ponds

    1. #1
      mariam's Avatar
      mariam is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2009
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      707

      Koi Pond: Dispelling Myths About Concrete Ponds

      http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ete_Ponds.html

      In this article by Doug Hoover - he answers two questions with interesting answers if true. I like to get your opinions on if he's right:


      (1) "One problem with concrete and mortar construction is that of cement alkali leaching out for some time after construction, poisoning the pond water with high alkalinity. It also leaves unsightly white deposit build-ups at the points of exit and on the surface of rocks in the waterfall."

      NOT TRUE! If the concrete you use to pour the shell is a 7-sack mix with 40% pea gravel and stealth fiber mix, the concrete is so dense that no leaching can even occur. Also, because of the density of the concrete, it is not only waterproof, but stronger than normal 5-sack mix used to pour driveways, patios and sidewalks. Finally, if you coat the finished surface with Thoro-seal, one of several non toxic concrete sealers, it cannot leach.

      (2) "When you use mortar mix to secure the rocks in a waterfall, the water that soaks into the porous mortar joints, leaches out alkali and phosphorescence that poisons the pond.

      TRUE in the past, but not anymore. Regular mortar is porous, allowing water to pass through, dissolving and collecting the cement residue. This had been a major concern of mine for many years. After the completion of a waterfall, I would have to run the waterfall for two or three weeks, shutting it off every 4 or 5 days, and acid-clean the white alkali residue off the rocks that had built up. Then, when we were finished, we would have to acid clean and rinse out the pond.

      Twelve years ago I discovered a secret formula that would render the mortar mix non porous and waterproof. It also makes regular mortar mix three times stronger. It is produced by adding one 45# bag of thinset (used to apply ceramic tile to a shower wall) to two bags of type S mortar mix. Once it cures, it becomes so dense, it is totally waterproof and will not leach any alkali after it cures (3 to 4 days). In addition, this mix is so strong in its holding ability that once it cures, a sledge hammer is needed to remove a rock. In most cases, the rock breaks up before coming free from the secret formula mortar.





      Thoughts?

      For the rest of the article visit the link above.





      Orlando, FL

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
      Kent Wallace is offline The luckiest man in the world
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas NV
      Posts
      4,598
      Hey Mariam, I agree. I have been touting the use of "Versabond" in mortar for years. Versabond is just a Thinset with more polymer additive in it making it even stronger. Good post!

    3. #3
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Basically, all we build are concrete/gunite ponds anymore. Our experiences are similar with the use of Xypex Admix and Concentrate products. Once the Xypex Concentrate is applied to the interior surfaces, no lime or alkali leach. Water is always tested from the tap and the pond, once filled and running for 2-3 days. Ph shows very little difference between the tap and pond water. As far as mortar is concerned Kent, thanks, I'll keep that in mind on our next job.

      Mike
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    4. #4
      mariam's Avatar
      mariam is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2009
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      707
      Thanks so much for the responses. Have anyone here used thoro-seal to coat the interior of the pond?

      What differences are there between this product and other products like xypex?





      Orlando, FL

    5. #5
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC President
      ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is sorry otters exist
       
      Feeling:
      Annoyed
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,942
      Nice link!

      I'm not sure what the definition of "leach" is, or if there's a time limit, but this is just my very limited experience...

      Pond is concrete block w/Xypex...
      PH after 2 days...

      Name:  PH pond water 2 days.jpg
Views: 4812
Size:  59.9 KB

      PH after 2 weeks... and it's been the same since.

      Name:  PH pond water 2 weeks.jpg
Views: 4569
Size:  58.2 KB

      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    6. #6
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
      Kent Wallace is offline The luckiest man in the world
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas NV
      Posts
      4,598
      It looks like it's about 8.0 in the pic. Our water starts out at that here in the desert.

    7. #7
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Yep, in our area, generally the Ph runs around 8.2-8.5 in the ponds. Funny, my tap water, when read immediately with a Ph meter states 7.6-7.8. With all the air going in the pond, it manages to creep up to 8.2 and stays very steady. The readings in the ponds we build are usually within .3 of the tap when first filled. So, not much difference there. We did one pond a few years ago with Eucoseal (very similar to Thoroseal) and the Ph in the pond after filling was 10.0+! It took nearly two weeks of adding vinegar to get the Ph stable. So, my money is still on Xypex!

      Mike
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    8. #8
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Interesting...so a sidebar question. I didn't "mortar" my waterfall in place because I already had fish in the pond. Long story, don't ask. Well after a few years, more water is running under than over the falls. So would I be sort of safe using mortar with the admix to redo the falls - with the fish still in the pond? What precautions should I take with a redo?
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

    9. #9
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Quote Originally Posted by Joey S View Post
      Interesting...so a sidebar question. I didn't "mortar" my waterfall in place because I already had fish in the pond. Long story, don't ask. Well after a few years, more water is running under than over the falls. So would I be sort of safe using mortar with the admix to redo the falls - with the fish still in the pond? What precautions should I take with a redo?
      Joey

      If you can safely isolate the waterfall from the pond so no mortar "falls in" while doing this work, yes, you could. But, do you also have a way to bypass the waterfall while maintaining filtration within the pond while doing this work? That way it would allow you to "cure" the concrete for a period of time. Also, if you felt safe that doing an "acid wash" to the mortar without it going into the pond, you could neutralize the leeching effect in short order after 3-4 days of curing.

      Mike
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    10. #10
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Joey

      If you can safely isolate the waterfall from the pond so no mortar "falls in" while doing this work, yes, you could. But, do you also have a way to bypass the waterfall while maintaining filtration within the pond while doing this work? That way it would allow you to "cure" the concrete for a period of time. Also, if you felt safe that doing an "acid wash" to the mortar without it going into the pond, you could neutralize the leeching effect in short order after 3-4 days of curing.

      Mike
      Yes, I can isolate the falls with a make shift drop cloth on a board across the face. And yes, I can easily bypass the waterfall and return water to the pond. As for doing an acid wash, I don't think I could contain the water safely unless it was a "spritz" that would dry and not enter the pond.

      So if I can't safely acid wash...what more can I do? Let it cure longer? My well water is pretty high pH...like 8.2 but also have filtered house water of 7.0. Is the main concern raising the pH? If so, I can deal with that by doing water changes with the house water.
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
      Kent Wallace is offline The luckiest man in the world
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas NV
      Posts
      4,598
      I have added waterfalls to existing ponds when upgrading and you do have to be careful not to get anymore mortar in the pond than possible.
      If a chunk of mortar falls in the pond don't touch it. If you try and retrieve it it just disintegrates into the water. If you leave it alone you can pick it out as a hardened piece the next day.
      With our high ph, acid washing the waterfall with a sponge and rinsing it off won't put enough acid in the water to matter.
      It can be done but you have to pay attention and be careful.

    12. #12
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Quote Originally Posted by Kent Wallace View Post
      I have added waterfalls to existing ponds when upgrading and you do have to be careful not to get anymore mortar in the pond than possible.
      If a chunk of mortar falls in the pond don't touch it. If you try and retrieve it it just disintegrates into the water. If you leave it alone you can pick it out as a hardened piece the next day.
      With our high ph, acid washing the waterfall with a sponge and rinsing it off won't put enough acid in the water to matter.
      It can be done but you have to pay attention and be careful.
      Ok...I read this as I will still need to "acid wash" the falls. What should be used to acid wash? Is vinegar enough to acid wash?
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

    13. #13
      C C is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      340
      So where to find this 7 sack mix?

    14. #14
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Good post Kent. Thanks for chiming in. I would suggest using a spray bottle to apply the acid. You shouldn't need that much as it's just the mortar between rocks, right? If you happen to have a PondOVac or a shop vac, you could have it at the ready, so as you spray the water on the acid washed areas, you could immediately suck the neutralized acid/water up before it could get into the pond. BTW, make sure you keep spraying the acid onto each area until it stops bubbling.

      Mike
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    15. #15
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Quote Originally Posted by C C View Post
      So where to find this 7 sack mix?
      You would need to talk to your local concrete mixing plant for specifics. This type mix is not available in sacks of redimix.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    16. #16
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Quote Originally Posted by Joey S View Post
      Ok...I read this as I will still need to "acid wash" the falls. What should be used to acid wash? Is vinegar enough to acid wash?
      If vinegar isn't strong enough, should I use muriatic acid? I've used this with my swimming pool. Not something I like to work with, but if vinegar isn't strong enough...what Acid to use?
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

    17. #17
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      If you are doing the acid wash, then muratic acid is the right acid. Personally, I wood give the mortar a week to cure, and forget about anything else, unless it is one very long stream. The amount of leaching calcium hydroxide is going to be small based on the shear size, compared to a complete pond. If the KH is good, if the pH goes above the 8.3/8.4 then it will neutralize the calcium hydroxide (pH 13) to calcium carbonate (neutral) and water. There may be a short time for the pH to slightly increase, but it shouldn't be much.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    18. #18
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      If you are doing the acid wash, then muratic acid is the right acid. Personally, I wood give the mortar a week to cure, and forget about anything else, unless it is one very long stream. The amount of leaching calcium hydroxide is going to be small based on the shear size, compared to a complete pond. If the KH is good, if the pH goes above the 8.3/8.4 then it will neutralize the calcium hydroxide (pH 13) to calcium carbonate (neutral) and water. There may be a short time for the pH to slightly increase, but it shouldn't be much.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    19. #19
      prestongohlke is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2009
      Location
      Fort Worth
      Posts
      546
      The way I read the OP if you just wait a few days before running the water fall again it will be just fine, right?

    20. #20
      Pond James_Pond's Avatar
      Pond James_Pond is offline Senior Member
      is Let 'em eat Manda Foo!
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2006
      Location
      Seattle'ish
      Posts
      4,347
      Yup. It's not like mortar is poison or something. It just adds some common trace minerals to the water. I didn't even detect any pH change in my 3400 gallon pond when I turned on the stream over 15 or 20 square feet of concreted stones in the stream bed.

      steve

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •