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    Thread: 40 Dead Fish So Far

    1. #1
      KoiKollector is offline Member
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      Unhappy 40 Dead Fish So Far

      Hi everyone, I had been posting to my original thread titled "Emergency Fish Dying 2 each day!" but I wanted to start over fresh since I'm still losing fish and I've made some new observations.

      My parameters have been and remain normal pretty much from from the start of this two weeks ago.

      Water parameters really do not seem to be the reason the fish are dying 3-6 per day.

      Ammonia: 0
      Nitrite: 0
      Phosphate: 0
      Nitrate: .5
      KH: 4 drops (I know this needs to be higher)
      PH 7.2 at night and 7.8 in the day.

      So far, ONLY my goldfish are dying. I only have a few Koi and they so far are ok.

      They seem to be getting sick and dying in groups of 5-6 fish. They seem healthly then a day or so later a new group is sick. this would be parasites right???? But which one! ZERO visiable signs of anything, except for one or two fish appeared to have some tiny ich on their faces????? The gills are not visibly damaged. If it was ich killing them, wouldn't I see more evidence of white spots??? They start to act listless, hang by themselves at the waterfall and sometimes not, not eating. Then dead in about two days. There is minimal jumping at the surface. I've seen my giant koi jump a few times though.

      I have done two treatments of Praziquantel and it seemed to slow the deaths, but they continue. Maybe I'm not putting enough? I've put two 50mg containers about 7 days apart, and I have another jar on the way this week.

      I'm thinking of using Malachite Green next. Is there any issues with combining the Praziquantel and the Malachite Green? Do I need to do a water change before I add the Malachite Green. Keep in mind, this is a 10,000 gallon pond, so water changes of more than 10% are going to be pretty costly. I'm already paying $300 a quarter just to compensate for the leak/dry summer.

      At this point, I'm thinking it must be something other than flukes.

      The birdbath in the picture now shoots water about 15" high and provides additional aeration to the pond. Birds don't go on it because its shooting a lot of water everywhere and they are scared.

      Any other ideas? I'm running out of options, and fish. This is such horrible torture. I so long for peace in my life again.
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      Last edited by KoiKollector; 10-17-2011 at 10:31 PM.

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    2. #2
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      You really need to do the water changes and dump filters before you add expensive chemicals. If you don't have good water, you aren't doing any good. The kh is too low, do a water change and add some baking soda.

      Have you checked to make sure you dont' have a fish that died some place, fouling the water.

    3. #3
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      I had looked at your other thread, but didn't comment. I recall mention of various possibilities from pH crash, (low KH), carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, lack of oxygen, to your suspicion of flukes.

      I don't know why you thought you had flukes, but two treatments with prazi should take of that, or at least stopped the deaths. You also mentioned adding Melafix and Pimafix, I believe. Don't add anymore of these. I have used Melafix on occasion, but it really doesn't "treat" anything - and - could compromise the gills (breathing) if that is the problem.

      You now give a KH reading of 4 drops or 71 ppm - low as you say. Someone suggested that you add Baking Soda. Did you? Was this reading before or after - if you added BS?

      You also mentioned the gills of dead fish not being red. Well, that's to be expected on dead fish. Have you pulled a live one and looked at the gills? If not, I suggest you do so.

      Have you now vacuumed the pond and removed all the crud? Sides as well as the bottom?

      If parasites, the one/two punch is MG/F (ProFormC) for two/three treatments (water changes in between, groan) and then Prazi in combo with the last dose. Do NOT use this with salt over .1 to be on the safe side. The reason for the water change/s is to rid the pond of mulm, poo, crap, etc. as the MG/F or ProFormC work on the crap making it less effective on attacking the parasites.

      You also say that so far, only goldfish have died. Although small, goldies are really quite hardy little fish. But I guess it's possible that they are more susceptible to whatever is at work in your pond.

      What is your pond temp?

      Prazi is $$$ and I wouldn't add anymore right now. Water is also $$$ which is a concern, but there are cheap ways to "clean" the pond.

      So, answer the above questions, try and catch a live one and look at the gills and give us a report. Hopefully, we can get to the bottom of your problem. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to bump the KH with baking soda to buffer the pH - it IS low - as long as you don't have an ammonia reading.
      Last edited by Joey S; 10-17-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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    4. #4
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      Hold off on adding the Prazi until the last dose of F/MG. In your first post, you stated that you had used 2 doses of 50 grams, but the dose level should be 100 grams per treatment on a 10000 gallon pond. There are many parasites other than flukes, and Prazi is only effective on the flukes. The F/MG is effective on all of the smaller parasites. A good scrape and scope would be the best means of identifying which parasite, if any, is the problem.

      You don't say where in Maryland you are located. I know the Mid-Atlantic Koi Club, MAKC.com, has a health hotline with volunteers that will do scrape and scope for members. There is John at Hanover Koi in Hanover PA, that I know has the equipment, and Blue Ribbon Koi near Dulles, I think, and Vienna Aquarium in Vienna, VA I would expect have the equipment, and there are a couple others that I could probably point you to, whether they are able to help, or just able to give a reference, I don't know.
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    5. #5
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      I guess I don't understand the need for the water changes when all the test kits are saying my water is perfect. Am I missing a key issue? This is a very clean pond. I can see every inch of the bottom clearly. All my parameters are zero that are supposed to be. I have a ton of filter media, about 8 sheets of Matala pads in two waterfall tubs plus four bags of ceramic rings, and lava rock in big laundry bags.

      I have been adding one box of baking soda each day, so far I've come up one drop on the test kit. I will add more than I had been adding.

      There could be a dead fish I guess inside one of the hideouts I have. I will try to move them around to see if there is anything in there. There was an aquatic turtle in there this summer. I have no idea how he got there. I haven't seen him for a long time so maybe he is dead in there somewhere. Perhaps he wouldn't float up.

      My pond bottom is VERY clean. I can see the bottom very well and there is nothing down there except the expensive "Aquatic Planting Media" that the koi rooted out of the plants last year.

      I have some muck built up on the sides, but I vacuum that often as needed. This is a very very clean pond, so even harder for me to accept its the water quality. I fuss and fuss over this pond every single minute I am home from work. I even work in the rain sometimes :-( My neighbors tease me because I'm ALWAYS out cleaning the pond or working on the plants. I literally pick leaves out by hand, one by one! There are a few on the bottom, but nothing that could account for this issue.

      I have LOTS of aeration, and if it wasn't all of the fish would be gasping.

      I have not pulled a sick fish to examine the gills. I will attempt to do that in the morning if I see someone struggling.

      Also, the goldfish are HUGE!!! So does that mean they are actually koi??? I'm pretty sure goldfish though, but mostly only my very large 12"+ have died. I buried one on Saturday that literally hung off the shovel at tail and head. I'd say about a 14" goldie. They have flat shaped bodies and slender faces like goldies.

      I will add more Baking Soda in the morning as well. i was afraid to do anything to much at one time.

      Thanks again for the suggestions. I think i will try the Proform C next and then a final treatment with the prazi.

    6. #6
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      Hi Richard. Great Idea! I'm right on the Virginia/DC/MD border. I will contact MAKC tomorrow. I wonder if any of the local folks would come to me, or if i would have to take the fish to them. I will try to find the locations you mentioned in Virginia. they are only about 30 miles from me.

      Also, you are right about the dosage, and it seems I only did half the dose :-( i was supposed to. I don't know my exact gallons, but based on all the calculations I've done, I'm coming in at more than 10,000 so my estimate of 10k is conservative. I need to post a pic of my pond. I will try to do that now.
      Last edited by KoiKollector; 10-17-2011 at 09:56 PM.

    7. #7
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      The dealers would require that you take them a fish for sure. The one that I know on the MAKC hotline will not do house calls except for members of MAKC, so you might need to join. I would expect that he would come out and assess the pond as well as scrape and scope the fish. At $30 per year, it would be a cheap price for a house call.
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    8. #8
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      I would love to join. I didn't even realize the club existed. I kind of isolate myself and I'm not normally much of a joiner. This is more than worth $30. I will try to find where to call in the morning.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiKollector View Post
      I guess I don't understand the need for the water changes when all the test kits are saying my water is perfect. Am I missing a key issue? This is a very clean pond. I can see every inch of the bottom clearly. All my parameters are zero that are supposed to be. I have a ton of filter media, about 8 sheets of Matala pads in two waterfall tubs plus four bags of ceramic rings, and lava rock in big laundry bags.

      I have been adding one box of baking soda each day, so far I've come up one drop on the test kit. I will add more than I had been adding.

      There could be a dead fish I guess inside one of the hideouts I have. I will try to move them around to see if there is anything in there. There was an aquatic turtle in there this summer. I have no idea how he got there. I haven't seen him for a long time so maybe he is dead in there somewhere. Perhaps he wouldn't float up.

      My pond bottom is VERY clean. I can see the bottom very well and there is nothing down there except the expensive "Aquatic Planting Media" that the koi rooted out of the plants last year.

      I have some muck built up on the sides, but I vacuum that often as needed. This is a very very clean pond, so even harder for me to accept its the water quality. I fuss and fuss over this pond every single minute I am home from work. I even work in the rain sometimes :-( My neighbors tease me because I'm ALWAYS out cleaning the pond or working on the plants. I literally pick leaves out by hand, one by one! There are a few on the bottom, but nothing that could account for this issue.

      I have LOTS of aeration, and if it wasn't all of the fish would be gasping.

      I have not pulled a sick fish to examine the gills. I will attempt to do that in the morning if I see someone struggling.

      Also, the goldfish are HUGE!!! So does that mean they are actually koi??? I'm pretty sure goldfish though, but mostly only my very large 12"+ have died. I buried one on Saturday that literally hung off the shovel at tail and head. I'd say about a 14" goldie. They have flat shaped bodies and slender faces like goldies.

      I will add more Baking Soda in the morning as well. i was afraid to do anything to much at one time.

      Thanks again for the suggestions. I think i will try the Proform C next and then a final treatment with the prazi.
      IMO water changes are one of the most important aspects in maintaining healthy fish and good water. Imagine living in a closed system swimming around in your own waste 24/7 with several others and never getting any of that bad water pumped out and replaced with new clean water. A pond is a giant "koi" toilet. You should be doing 10% water changes a week at the very minimum. More than that would be better and I'm sure your fish would greatly appreciate it. I bet I do almost 25% a week but granted I do not have as many gallons as you do.

      How many bottom drains do you have on your pond and what is your filter cleaning regiment and frequency?
      Brian



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    10. #10
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      I can't find the hotline number :-( I just joined though. The prorated amount was only $20. I'm happy to be a member. I just didn't know about it. I live in a vacuum I guess.

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    11. #11
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      Sorry to hear your still having the issues, I remember your other posts and was really hopping the problem got solved! I agree with both Cindy & Richard. It's a really good idea to really examine the pond and try to locate any dead fish or even the turtle that could be fouling up the water, with all those plants seams it could be a chore.

      And I also think contacting your local Koi club would be a great idea, and 30$ a year for house calls is indeed a great deal, and might just even put your on the right track and save you from spending a fortune on chemicals you don't need.

      I would also recommend reading Karl's (koi valley) health sticky at the top of the emergency forum. it gives great information that has helped me, as well as gives your proper dosages and intructions for profrom c, prazi etc...

      And as a lot will tell you, just because your levels are good and your water is clear doesn't mean there isn't problems.


      Good luck too you! I really hope things turn around for you and your kids!

    12. #12
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      All the plants have been cut back for the winter. I now have my giant 48 x 28' net on, but I can see all the areas very good now. I plan to call the Koi Club first thing in the morning. This is one of those times where you feel great regret for not knowing something so obvious as the Koi Club. I'm spending a fortune on meds and I even bought $100 in charcoal the first two days this happend. I did know to take it out though before putting in the meds.

      Thanks again for the good info. I will do water changes from now on! Thanks for you care also.

    13. #13
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      This hobby is a lot of trial and error. Were all still learning!

    14. #14
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      its just so hard to accept that I killed my precious fishies! I will be a better parent from now on. Lots of water changes (going to just go ahead and invest in second water meter so I don't have to pay for sewage treament also) I just need this to stop. I literally feel it making me sick with anxiety. I'm a walking zombie for the past 10 days. I don't deal with this sort of thing very well at all.

    15. #15
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      For the hotline, look at the October Newsletter Page 4 bottom right. There are 3 in your area I think. The newsletter is on the right side of the MAKC.com page home page.
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    16. #16
      Rich L is offline Senior Member
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      Check with Joey S., above. She belongs to Koi Organisation International. They are a training group that has a whole realm of computer based coarses on koi, Ponds, Filters, Koi Nutrition and helth training.

      The courses are about $25.00 each and will cut years off your learning curve.

    17. #17
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      Glad you hooked up with a MAKC membership and hopefully some hands on help. Although, it does distress me that the local "expert" won't make a call for a non member without compensation. I make many pond calls on my own nickle regardless of club membership.

      Anyway, I see you have been adding the BS and the KH has only come up 1 drop. According to your last tests, the pH was swinging from am to pm - not much - but significant after adding more BS. A large pH swing could be the problem causing deaths. Keep adding the BS to raise the KH and stabilize the pH.

      Also, I would suggest you get out a notepad and start recording your test measurements, any meds added (when and how much), and other basic info. Go back and try and reconstruct what you have done since the deaths started. This will be valuable info for anyone who comes to help. Record everything you can think of...the daily temps, pond temps, rain, water changes...everything is important info.

      I missed the pic of your fish unless it was added later. I can see why you are so distressed...loosing so many...so large...and perfect looking. Can that really be a common goldie? It is huge, bigger than any goldie I've ever seen, but I don't see any barbels.

      So sorry you are having such a nightmare with your fish.
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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiKollector View Post
      PH 7.2 at night and 7.8 in the day.
      What time at night? If it's 4 - 5 am, you might be checking at the low point. Otherwise, you're looking at a minimum swing of 0.6pH units per day, possibly higher. That's a lot of stress on your fish.

      -t

    19. #19
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      I found the hot line numbers! I will call around first thing tomorrow and hope to find someone. I'm at least 35 miles from the VA and MD locations though.

      I did just start a great journal! Yet another thing I can't belive I haven't been doing all these years now.

      So a PH swing could cause the slow 12-24hr death cycles? 99% of the ones that have died have obviously been hanging at the waterfalls gasping constantly for at least a 12 hour period.

      I did just add the pics a few minutes ago. He was a beauty wasn't he. He was the biggest and prettiest so far. I think he is maybe a goldie/Koi hybrid? I have many more like that with the pretty tails. Not that this makes it any better, but most of the ones that died so far were not nearly as pretty or big as this one, but still at least 8" each.

      I have literally killed my brain trying to pinpoint every single thing I've done and I think I may have at least pinpointed the possible source of parasites, if that turns out to be what it is.

      I had bought some frozen food from Petsmart for them as a treat and I had fed it to them just a week or so before the deaths started. It wasn't the good pure Hikari kind. It was some other brand that Petsmart sells.

    20. #20
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      One very important detail as well, my area has had an insane amount of rain since late August/early September. We NEVER get hurricanes in Maryland, and we had two back to back for a total of over 30" of rain in three weeks, we continued to have a lot of rain since then, so that is why my KH dropped so low I think. Now that I know rain isn't necessarily a good thing, I will be sure to add BS as needed. I bought 10 2lb boxes so far, but I've only put in about 4pounds in three days. i think that's right.

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