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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Breeding Budo Goromo

    1. #1
      Zak's Avatar
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      Breeding Budo Goromo

      Hello again all,

      I'm not breeding anything yet. Just doing my homework.

      I wondered if there is anyone that has experience trying to breed their own budo goromo. I'm curious as to how they did it. Whether they crossed budo x budo, asagi x kohaku, or outcrossed (?) budo x sanke or backcrossed budo x kohaku.

      There doesn't seem to much info on how budos are actually made. Which is expected given their limited availability and that this info amounts to a breeder trade secret, essentially.

      Also, please chip in if you *are* familiar with how breeders produce them. I've heard they come from asagi x kohaku spawns. Also read somewhere that they are then outcrossed (?) with sanke (perhaps for the shiroji of the sanke? Not sure why they'd choose a sanke over a kohaku for that purpose). What little I've come across indicated they don't breed well type to type, that is budo x budo. I have no idea why, just read a post of Dick Benbow's somewhere that said the offspring "lose something special".

      To get the consistency of say, Sakazume...I'd have a hard time believing his process for budo is asagi x kohaku. I'd think at least one parent would have to be Budo and display the desired traits.

      Why cross Budo with Sanke though...and not Kohaku? That's bugging me. The only thing I can reason so far is that the Sanke parent perhaps had the desired shiroji (or perhaps a darker hi). Why you'd cross with a Sanke and introduce the potential for spotted sumi is beyond me. Seems like you'd have to cull so many that developed sumi spots. Why not a Kohaku with say, cool white Hoshikin-type shiroji, and a darker red hi?

      ...if you can add something, please do. As always, it's much appreciated. Thanks again!
      Last edited by Zak; 09-19-2011 at 08:59 PM. Reason: terminology correction
      Voted "Sexiest Koi Keeper EVAR!" 2010, 2011, and 2012.

    2. #2
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #3
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Mr. Sakai gets all of his Goromo and Goshiki from the same parents. I have never seen the parents but am really curious at to what they are.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #4
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      Russell, it's a mystery! hahaha! That's kinda cool though.

      They could just be byproducts of asagi/kohaku spawns. Where breeders are trying to make Ai goromo. Breeders may not even try for them specifically.

      I might try simply backcrossing one with an all white asagi. Think about that for a second. Ever notice how the nice budos, when young, have the shiroji where you can still see the blue underneath? That's an asagi trait. If you backcrossed with Kohaku it seems like you'd increase the chances that the offspring *wouldn't* have that trait.

      That's all you can really do I guess at the end of the day. Try it and see what happens!
      Voted "Sexiest Koi Keeper EVAR!" 2010, 2011, and 2012.

    5. #5
      tsunadekoi is offline Member
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      hmm i know a breeder here that i think breeds them i will have to ask. i actually have a budo tosai from him. good question...

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zak View Post
      Russell, it's a mystery! hahaha! That's kinda cool though.

      They could just be byproducts of asagi/kohaku spawns. Where breeders are trying to make Ai goromo. Breeders may not even try for them specifically.

      I might try simply backcrossing one with an all white asagi. Think about that for a second. Ever notice how the nice budos, when young, have the shiroji where you can still see the blue underneath? That's an asagi trait. If you backcrossed with Kohaku it seems like you'd increase the chances that the offspring *wouldn't* have that trait.

      That's all you can really do I guess at the end of the day. Try it and see what happens!
      No thanks, but I will see if I can find out what Mr. Sakai does.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #7
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      Hi
      I tried the Kohaku f x m Asagi back in 2000 the fry were mostly white year one and year two red and blue white base and year 9 still developing colour pattern but mainly all Ai goramo no budo goromo at all and this female Kohau was from a Sanke spawning !
      so to get a darker deeper blue to deep purple i would guess a back cross of a asagi male to a Ai goromo but I have not tried it yet ! but a good one to try !!!


    8. #8
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      Hi
      I tried the Kohaku f x m Asagi back in 2000 the fry were mostly white year one and year two red and blue white base and year 9 still developing colour pattern but mainly all Ai goramo no budo goromo at all and this female Kohau was from a Sanke spawning !
      so to get a darker deeper blue to deep purple i would guess a back cross of a asagi male to a Ai goromo but I have not tried it yet ! but a good one to try !!!

      This is why I am curious to find out what Mr. Sakai uses for parents as he gets all of his Goromo, Ai and Budo, and all of his Goshiki, which are several types, from the same set of parents. It amazes me that so many varieties are coming from the same parents.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #9
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      Looking into the Budo goromo more it looks Goshiki based as i think you would need this as a female to get the darker scale base colours for Budo Goromo the purple grape colour ,and have found out it was first bred by crossing Goshiki to Goshiki but of how dark or light the Brood fish were I don't know !
      but been a Asagi based gene fish you would get a mix I would think anyway that would turn up so if you wanted a darker result in your fry I would try a Goshiki female and back cross with a Asagi male to get a better result but I'm only guessing here !

      if you look at Blackwater creek at koromo it tells you alot and very good info on this sub - type of koi and you can see the scale pattern differances and colour between the two sub types Ai Goromo and Budo Goromo and quite plainly tells you if the sumi migrates to the white skin its a Goshiki not a Budo Goromo so to me tells you its more Goshiki than Ai goromo based as the colour and skin are darker to start with ! but thats my own conculsions of this sub type with stronger Asagi genes !

      and that would explain the large amount of types produced from one spawning.!

    10. #10
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      Looking into the Budo goromo more it looks Goshiki based as i think you would need this as a female to get the darker scale base colours for Budo Goromo the purple grape colour ,and have found out it was first bred by crossing Goshiki to Goshiki but of how dark or light the Brood fish were I don't know !
      but been a Asagi based gene fish you would get a mix I would think anyway that would turn up so if you wanted a darker result in your fry I would try a Goshiki female and back cross with a Asagi male to get a better result but I'm only guessing here !

      if you look at Blackwater creek at koromo it tells you alot and very good info on this sub - type of koi and you can see the scale pattern differances and colour between the two sub types Ai Goromo and Budo Goromo and quite plainly tells you if the sumi migrates to the white skin its a Goshiki not a Budo Goromo so to me tells you its more Goshiki than Ai goromo based as the colour and skin are darker to start with ! but thats my own conculsions of this sub type with stronger Asagi genes !

      and that would explain the large amount of types produced from one spawning.!
      This makes a lot of sense.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    11. #11
      JUDELT is offline Senior Member
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      anyone have pitures of some pretty ones?

    12. #12
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by JUDELT View Post
      anyone have pitures of some pretty ones?
      Yes
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    13. #13
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      very nice Russel ,very nice reticulation in these koi are they sakai !

    14. #14
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      very nice Russel ,very nice reticulation in these koi are they sakai !
      Yes, I get quite a few from him every year.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Mr. Sakai gets all of his Goromo and Goshiki from the same parents. I have never seen the parents but am really curious at to what they are.
      Russ, I know this is an old thread..but, a friend asked what combination was used to breed Budo Goromo's..and I saw this.
      Did you ever find out what Mr. Sakai used to breed?


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    16. #16
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Bump. Really love Budo Goromo but can't figure out how they are bred. Any updates since 2012 or is it an eternal mystery?

    17. #17
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      Hi Zak,

      I've tried Asagi to Kohaku an to say the least not impressed you would need 10 years plus to refine from that beginning, even used a Ai Goromo to kohaku an only got kohaku with little flecks of sumis in them, So after research an talking to friends if you really want to get your hands on a Budo an preferably cross to an Ai Goromo or Budo if available otherwise if you use a Kohaku ( which I'm going to use as well as a Ai goromo this year ) you would only get ai goromo's an kohaku with little shimmies in them ( Not Ideal ).
      My plan is to get some decent Ai Goromo this year but hopefully a few good Budo's
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    18. #18
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Ugh. I'm so new, I know nothing about Koi genetics and I'm actually pretty good with genetics. I need a crash course of some kind. It would be fun to try and breed them down the road.
      I'm not above bribery.....

    19. #19
      Matt24's Avatar
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      I used to have a male and a female budo goromo that I considered spawning, thinking that might be the easiest way to get budo. But I typically don't do more than one spawn per year, and always decided on spawning other variaties.

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