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    Thread: Yogurt in Koi food and water

    1. #1
      Neli's Avatar
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      Yogurt in Koi food and water

      Not much is know on the subject, and I decided to do a bit of research, since I was advised to put yogurt in my food and in my pond(4tbl spoons in filter) by 2 veteran Koi keepers and professional breeders.
      Apparently There are many scientific studies done on this subject, apart for the anecdotal statements that in Japan The MDof ZNA and most Japanese use it *** an additive to pellets.
      Hikari also uses a strain of lactobacillus in their Hikari germ.
      This is part of the scientific studies and experiments done on lactobacillus, for they are just too many to refer to all of them:


      Link to benefits of probiotics and lactobacillus strains.
      http://epubs.icar.org.in/ejournal/in...load/6946/2679
      Here is scientific data, a study done on the effect of lactobacillus on fish.
      Proper scientific study and this is what they say:
      -these bacteria can be useful as
      probiotics in freshwater fish culture.
      -Both Lactobacillus sp. P21 and Bacillus
      sp. P43 exhibited pronounced in vitro inhibitory
      action on many of the opportunistic pathogens
      including Aeromonas spp. and Pseudomonas
      spp. isolated from diseased C. auratus, possibly
      by the production of bacteriocin-like substance
      -The results
      show that the Bacillus sp. P43 and Lactobacillus
      sp. P21 confer benefit to C. auratus and
      X. helleri when administered as probiotics in
      water. Both Lactobacillus sp. P21 and Bacillus
      sp. P43 exhibited pronounced in vitro inhibitory
      action on many of the opportunistic pathogens
      including Aeromonas spp. and Pseudomonas
      spp. isolated from diseased C. auratus, possibly
      by the production of bacteriocin-like substance
      -There was a general reduction in
      bacterial counts with storage in all feeds
      -results suggest that the Lactobacillus sp. may be
      suitable as probiotics and / or biocontrol agents
      in freshwater ornamental fish culture.
      Here it is a reference PDF on probiotics and their ability to suppress aeronomas V=vibrio=aeronoma:
      These bacteria often produce
      bacteriocins and other chemical compounds that may inhibit the growth of
      pathogenic bacteria. The probiotic bacteria isolated can also inhibit the
      growth of fish pathogens such as V , anguillarum and A. salmonicida (Gildberg
      et al., 1995)
      Link:
      http://ietd.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstrea...hapter%202.pdf
      it contains very good info on pathogens too.
      This is what they say:
      -
      Colonization of the fish digestive tract b y bacteria ~ a p a b l e of producing
      lactic acid fermentation may inhibit the proliferation of putrefactive microbes in
      that site, thus protecting the host (fish) from diseases caused by toxins generated by
      proteolytic bacteria.
      -. The inhibitory effect of lactic acid bacteria against fish pathogen is not
      limited to strains isolated in fish. Many lactic acid bacteria produce inhibitory
      compounds against A. hydrophila (Lewus et al., 1991; Santos et al., 1996).
      Cereal grains fermented with lactic acid bacteria, limited the bacterial growth in
      the enrichment medium of rotifers (Gatesoupe et al., 1989, 1990).
      -Inhibitory effects of fish gut flora on bacterial pathogens A.
      salmonicida, V. ordalii, V. anguillarum, V. salmonicida have also be en reported
      in other studies. (Onarheim and Raa, 1990; Westerdahl et al., 1991, 1994;
      Olsson et al., 1992; Austin et al., 1995; Bergh, 1995). The fact that fish have a
      gut flora with inhibitory effects against pathogens may have relevance to fish
      health
      -The immunological properties of probiotic bacteria have been extensively
      studied; certain LAB such as Lactobacillus casei, L. rhamnosus a n d L.
      plantarum enhance both systemic and mucosal immunity (Perdigon et al., 1999;
      2001).
      -
      In recent years, there has been a growing interest in combating or
      controlling disease problems through alternative husbandry methods. One
      method is the use of antagonistic bacterial strains to control populations of
      potential pathogens through competitive exclusion or enhancement of immunity.
      In aquaculture, this may be achieved by maintenance of balanced populations
      of bacteria and by the use of defined probiotics in a number of ways such as
      enrichment of larval food, inclusion in the diet or addition to the water, as a
      remediation agent.
      -The use of lactic acid bacteria (LAB) as probiotics
      (Gatesoupe, 1991, 1994, 1999; Ringo and Gatesoupe, 1998; Robertson et al.,
      2000; Vershuere et al., 2000) and non-specific immunostimulants (Robertson et
      al., 1990; Anderson, 1992) has been proposed, in addition to the effort t o
      improve water quality (Vadstein et al., 1993; Skjermo and Vadstein, 1999) and
      nutrition (Ronnestad et al., 1999), as a means to increase larval survival and
      aquaculture output. Probiotic products are usually standardized based on the
      presumption that the culture viability is a reasonable measure of their activity
      I did a search:
      http://www.google.co.zm/webhp?source...w=1366&bih=643

      and found so many scientific studies on the benefits of lactobacillus and yeas to fish. Just too many.
      So please dont castigate my yogurt, eat it and soak your pellets in it at list ones a week, since it can survive in the gut up to 14 days.
      I said my since it comes from my country. He he he!
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    2. #2
      Neli's Avatar
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      Experiment in progress. To post results soon. My water suddenly turned green very green.Pictures taken>
      I think it is because my filter has finally produced nitrates!
      Lets see if yogurt in food and filter will help.I am feeding and adding yogurt 6 days now (in filter twice 4 days apart)
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by Neli; 09-08-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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    3. #3
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      Mean while it has been brought to my attention that because of my ranting about the goodness of yogurt, a thread was opened on Koibito about it.
      The thing that impressed me most is that Mark Gardner said that Momotaro feeds yogurt mixed with other ingredients to their Koi.

      http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-f...ogurt-koi.html
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    4. #4
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      First I want to explain what happened to my pond, so maybe U can explain why my water went so dirty. I am using the word dirty, since I dont know if it was an algae bloom or what. But the moment I started applying yogurt I started taking pictures.(7-8 days ago, will check the dates on the pictures. Forgot! experiment where some one forgets when they started it he he he!)
      This are all the facts so maybe U will tell me why my water went dirty. Is it from the PP or it is from the fact that I finally have nitrates, or because the temperature changed and it is hot here now.
      About 15-20 days ago I put PP in my pond, at 0.2ppm. Not 100% sure since I have calculated the volume of my pond with a salt meter.
      I dont have much filtration, Izeki plus a bakki.Izeki is around ??45 days old, bakki 4 month.
      But I think my pond has some how cycled, for I have nitrates, and believe it or not I never had ammonia (water changes)
      My pond is a year old, but I nuked it in June and put my new fish inside.
      In two days after I put the PP brown/green like algae stuff stared floating on top. Lots of it.I collected it all but in 2 days my water turned brown/green that I could not even see a fish 20cm bellow the surface. more and more kept on coming up from the bottom the next several days. I thought OK green water can be good for the fish, so I did not bother about it much.
      I used to have a submersible pump, that I used to drug on the floor and pick all the kaka and debry.It broke down and electrocuted my worker soon after I put the PP in. (maybe it was too much algae for it?????)
      Recently when I posted about the yogurt, some one said experiment and let us know. I did that, and thought that the results will take some time.So I thought I will post all the pictures at ones.
      Today I was very surprised and decided to post what I have seen.
      I put yogurt 7 days ago (+- 1 day for old age fluctuations) and again 4 days later. I actually used sower milk (it is cheaper) 500ml (I was told it is an overdose), liquidized and mixed with water, spread all over the pond.
      My water went milky a bit.
      The second time I just put it in my filter, again 500ml.
      the second time I already saw a slight difference Day 4.
      Since them my water has been improving daily and rapidly, untill today when I found my pond almost totally clear. (80%)Not the usual crystal clear my pond has been since the day I constructed it but I can see the bottom.
      I constructed my pond Oct last year and to date had no algae or green water, but my pond is shallow, in full sun, and here is hot.
      Again it was our winter here. Temperature started changing rapidly here and just about the same time I put the PP and had the algae bloom. (26*C) Could it be from the rapid change of temperature?????
      Another thing I noticed is that I can not see the long worm like Kaka I used to collect from the bottom on daily bases, lots of it.
      What surprises me is that my floor has not been cleaned for 2 weeks, and I should have had hips of it. (no bottom drains)
      I went around today, and called my worker to help me look for Kaka. he even steered with a stick. Could not see even one. But I can see powder like stuff, that when the fish passes erupts like a cloud of dust.
      I have been also feeding my fish yogurt soaked pellets for the same amount of time,
      and maybe Thats why I dont see the worm like kaka.
      This not really a controlled experiment, just observation of what yogurt did for my pond.
      Maybe some one can explain it to me better? What happened, and did the yogurt clear my water.Did I have green water in the first place?
      Can some one who has the same problem do the same and report if his algae or green water has also cleared, since if this thing really works, it can help lots of people.
      By the way, today I received an E mail from a friend, veteran Koi keeper, also here on the forum, who mentioned two more names of famous Japanese breeders, that soak their pellets in yogurt.Forgot their names, so perhaps he can mention their names.
      This is how my water looks today. Not the usual perfect clarity, but not too far from it.
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    5. #5
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      Day 1
      U can see my water. Not possible to see the fish.
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    6. #6
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      Day 3
      I can see my fish a bit better.
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    7. #7
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      This is day 4 U can see around the edges the water is much clearer, and I can see the fish much better. But still not more than 50cm visibility.
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    8. #8
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      First picture is 3 days ago and the last picture is today.
      U can see how much clearer my water is.
      Just to compare.
      So can some one explain that to me.
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    9. #9
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      Sorry the pictures are the other way around.
      I am hoping it will be clear very soon and will post pictures.
      I hope some one else will try it too and report here.
      Last edited by Neli; 09-09-2011 at 05:55 AM.
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    10. #10
      Billy Pounds is offline Senior Member
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      Hi Neli...nice looking herd you have there...it needs another yellow fish and an asagi or a shusui or two to balance your color palette.....kinda Funk shui...lol...Billy

    11. #11
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      Billy Darling,
      I have 7 yellowish fish, starting with an yamabuki and ending with orengi ogon, in varying combinations of GR and doitsu.Just that U need a microscope to see them.He he he!
      Now shusui and asagi I would love to have , but it will have to wait for next year, when I go to SA.
      Thanks for the compliment. It means a lot to me, for I love my babies.
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    12. #12
      jwhit is offline Senior Member
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      Because of the fact that the cloudiness faded so quickly, I would guess bacterial bloom. The bio is catching up.

    13. #13
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      OK ! I have to listen to every thing U say since I dont understand it. The water was green/brown, if that means any thing.
      Now how do i get a bacterial bloom after i PP the pond. Is the PP not supposed to kill the bacteria?
      What kind of bacteria do U think that was?
      What made it go away?
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      jwhit is offline Senior Member
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      It might have been algae, or a combo of algae and bacteria, good bacteria for the biofilter
      I'm sorry, I know nothing about PP, and I've never used it.
      It would be good to know what your water tests at through the changes you saw. Overall it looks like a good thing that will improve water quality. Tests would probably show nutrients raised, then the bloom, and nutrients went down, then the bloom faded.

    15. #15
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      PP is Potassium Permanganate. I did not think of doing water tests. I only bought 1 test kit and a strip test kit. They are not available here, so I really need to economize them.
      I use them not less than two weeks appart or if I suspect a problem
      What my usual readins are:
      PH 9
      GH 180
      KH 170
      Ammonia 0
      nitrite 0.1
      nitrate 0.2
      That is all I can measure.
      But I can measure tomorrow to see if the yogurt affected my water. Though I did not measure recently, before that.
      I am never using PP again. Unless really serious problem in pond.
      I am sure U know what U are talking about. How did the nutrients went down? What do U think did that? Bacteria in filter recovering????
      What ever it is and how ever it did it, I am glad it did it.
      Thanks for the explanation. It makes it clearer for me.
      I hope some one else will try it so we can figure it better.
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    16. #16
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      Potassium permanganate is a strong oxidizing agent. It breaks down organic compounds. It's dark purple when it hits the water but as the reaction takes place, the purple goes away and the organics leave behind a dark brown residue. You have to do water changes to get it out.

      From my understanding, most bacteria are clear. Atleast the ones I've seen under the microscope. I don't think it was a bacterial bloom, I think it was the PP dissolving all the gunk and fish poop in your system, turning it into tiny suspended particles.

      These probably collected in your mechanical filter over the course of seven days. Have you backwashed or cleaned your filter since then? What did it look like?

      Green water is normally from algae, not bacteria. And I don't think the probiotics would make much of a visual difference to your water color. First because bacteria like to grow on surfaces, not just float around. And second because most bacteria lack any distinct color.

      Also, significant levels of PP should kill ALL bacteria in your pond, including beneficial bacteria. You'll have to look up what those levels are cause I can't remember them off the top of my head.

      Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in. Keep us posted. Nice fish

    17. #17
      Neli's Avatar
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      Thanks for the advise and info. I clean my filter monday and friday. I only have one does it all DIY izekki at the moment, and a bakki.Building.....and it seems I will never finish it.
      So probably I had brownish green water due to PP, dead algae and the green color...????? must be algae then
      Today my water is its usual crystal clear. The yogurt has cleaned all the suspended particles??? in the water, but now they are on the floor, and around 2mm thick. When the fish swims by fast a cloud comes Up.
      I lent my camera yesterday and is not back yet. Will post how crystal clear my water is again later.
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    18. #18
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      Neli, you asked me to look at this thread and lend some insight. I haven't used yogurt in my pond so I'm afraid I won't be much help on that score. I do add probiotics (in powder form) to the paste food for the koi. I don't add them to aid the filtration system or water chemistry but rather to aid the fish.

      I've used PP but not as a parasite treatment but rather as a tool for knocking back potential bad bacteria or to neutralize a treatment.
      Greenclaws is right, as an oxidizer it will go after any bacteria in the pond be it beneficial or otherwise. Depending on the dose you used, you could have knocked your filters back some as evidenced by the nitrite reading you have.

      I wouldn't think the yogurt cleared the water but rather the PP has run it's course and your filtration has trapped the particulates the treatment created. That is typically what my water looks like after a couple days post PP treatment.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    19. #19
      Neli's Avatar
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      Never dome PP before! Now at List U explained what to expect.But my water went green so thats what surprised me.
      Today my water is crystal clear. But I can see some brownish dead algae on the bottom, that I think can float too if steered.
      Have U any idea what bacteria U add as probiotic?(name)
      Thanks Merilyn.
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    20. #20
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I use human grade probiotics, I think the brand is Garden of Life, the product is Primal Defense. I give it to the koi for the same reason I take it, it aids in digestion by keeping a good number of beneficial bacteria in the digestive tract.

      IME green water is not an uncommon effect after a PP treatment. The pond is finding its balance again and anytime my pond is out of balance I see increased algae.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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