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    Thread: concernd about ph

    1. #21
      Graham's Avatar
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      There's no mystery here...it's pretty simple

      My GH reads 25
      KH reads 0
      Source water is 5.3

      Your water has no buffering ability and the algae cycle is pushing your pH all over the place. I'm surprised you don't have dead fish with those numbers. Start adding baking soda every day to slowly raise the pH/KH up into the 7.2 range with a KH of about 80>100ppm. Increase the pH by about 0.2 >0.3 per day

    2. #22
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      Just added 3 lbs of Baking Soda to see how that helps.
      To tell you tne truth, I don't know how to settle on the diosage of the BS.
      .
      I will check the KH in the AM and post.

    3. #23
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      Thanks everyone for your help in working this out. KP is so great!

    4. #24
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      I took readings at 4:30 this morning. UGH

      PH 8.8
      KH 120
      GH 25

      Sure was a lot of foam on top of the pond but water was slightly clearer
      The swing is unnerving though

    5. #25
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      the biggest issue with ph is a large swing in a short period of time. keep the change below .5 per day and you will be fine. my pond is about 4000 gallons, and i use a pound to move the ph about 0.2. if the fish aren't showing signs of emergent need, you are fine, but i'd slow down the change rate. koi are in their element between 6.5 and 9.5 with a blood ph of 7.4. evidence of an excessive swing is typically flashing by several or all fish, not including the feeding period.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by JMorris271 View Post
      Sorry I havent gotten back sooner but have been split ithree ways between the pond, work, and the heat;
      I can find no external factors that would cause a 9.7 reading for PH
      My GH reads 25
      KH reads 0
      Source water is 5.3
      The coping is out of the pond and is flagstone.
      I have 2 vortex fillters that are 200 gals each feeding 2 Bead filters in a 4800 ,liner pond
      No2 and No 3 are 0
      Very very small amt of ammonia.
      No runoff has occured that we have seen and I check.
      The koi can be seen swimming around sometimes but moving rapidly

      Thats pretty much all I know at this time.
      Thanks for everyones input.

      To , make matters worse I have just had 3 new koi shipped to me. Thankfully, a friend has an unused tank set up and is letting me use it to do the quarentine .
      There are two causes of the high pH with these measured values.

      The KH is too low as others said, and needs baking soda addition to stabilize pH at a better value.

      But the GH is way too low for acceptable pH control. GH is a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium. When there is enough dissolved calcium and magnesium, AND when the KH is in an acceptable range (meaning between 80 and 300 ppm), if the pH drifts above 8.5, the calcium and magnesium will precipitate the carbonate ions that are causing the high pH and drop the pH value.

      So if you want the pH to stay below the 9 value you have measured:

      1. Get the KH into the 80 to 300 ppm range by adding two pounds of baking soda per 1000 gallons of pond water.
      2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.

      Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    7. #27
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      Thanks Roddy. Can you get the calcium chloride flake at most chemical stores?

    8. #28
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      Calcium chloride flake is widely available in Charleston, WV for a variety of reasons.

      Swimming pool stores carry it in 50 pound bags for increasing the hardness of swimming pools, since the local water is so soft the pH of swimming pools can go sky high without the addition of some calcium chloride flake.

      Farm stores, Lowes, and Home Depot carry it in winter months since it is the no 1 product to melt snow and ice in driveways and walkways - the calcium chloride flake melts ice at a lower temperature than sodium chloride, the calcium chloride won't tear up the concrete, the calcium chloride does not damage plants. The farm stores and swimming pool stores stock it year round, Lowes, Walmart, and Home Depot stock it in Fall and Winter months for the ice melting purpose.

      The usual price range locally is between $10 and $20 per 50 pound bag for calcium chloride flake.

      It it is not available locally in Columbia, SC, the freight to bring it in will cost more than the material.

      Obviously you may not need a 50 pound bag for ponding, but if you have it and experience a rare ice storm in Columbia, SC, then you will have what you need to melt ice on your sidewalks around your house.

      I am sometimes in Columbia, SC, visiting one of my chemical tolling suppliers (Weylchem). Lovely place....
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      There are two causes of the high pH with these measured values.

      The KH is too low as others said, and needs baking soda addition to stabilize pH at a better value.

      But the GH is way too low for acceptable pH control. GH is a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium. When there is enough dissolved calcium and magnesium, AND when the KH is in an acceptable range (meaning between 80 and 300 ppm), if the pH drifts above 8.5, the calcium and magnesium will precipitate the carbonate ions that are causing the high pH and drop the pH value.

      So if you want the pH to stay below the 9 value you have measured:

      1. Get the KH into the 80 to 300 ppm range by adding two pounds of baking soda per 1000 gallons of pond water.
      2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.

      Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.
      Thanks Roddy, that was my stumper for the am. I couldn't understand the ph not stabilizing at 8.3. We have extremely hard water here so never dealt with it. Question how high would the ph go with soft water?

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      Thanks Roddy, that was my stumper for the am. I couldn't understand the ph not stabilizing at 8.3. We have extremely hard water here so never dealt with it. Question how high would the ph go with soft water?
      The pH typically reaches the 11 to 12 range when the GH and KH are so low. There is nothing to stabilize pH in the absence of reasonable values of both KH and GH.

      There seems to be a big push for getting rid of GH by softening the water or using reverse osmosis to get really low TDS (meaning low salts as measured by conductivity). One of many problems with low TDS is inadequate GH to stabilize the pH.

      There are many ponders who run their ponds at pH values of 10 or so because that is what their water chemistry gives them. I don't like pH values that high for keeping koi. pH values above 10 is okay for goldfish and golden orfes, but it is hard on koi.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    11. #31
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      thank you, printing this off for my notes. Sometimes my old brain doesn't retain w/out notes.

    12. #32
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      If you have been able to keep a stable PH near 8.3 by keeping a stable KH of over 140 is it still needed to boost the GH? My GH usually is near 40 but I add BS to boost my KH to 140+. Also is there any info about KH swings? How long should it take to boost the KH from 80 to 140 as an example?
      Need more Koi

    13. #33
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      Roddy.
      We usually get zip when it comes to show or ice here. Only during a blue moon do we have it.
      I did find the Calcium Chloride Flakes at the Chemical Store in Cayce SC. The have the tablets and the flakes but as you said
      not cheap. I will pick it up in the am.
      Thankyou so much for your help to so many all over .

    14. #34
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davidjensen View Post
      If you have been able to keep a stable PH near 8.3 by keeping a stable KH of over 140 is it still needed to boost the GH? My GH usually is near 40 but I add BS to boost my KH to 140+. Also is there any info about KH swings? How long should it take to boost the KH from 80 to 140 as an example?
      If the KH is over 140 and the algae is under excellent control, the pH will usually stay stable around 8.3. But if the algae gets out of control even with a high KH from baking soda, the pH will shoot up to 10 to 11 range unless GH is also in the 100 to 250 range. Also, in the situation of high KH and uncontrolled algae, the GH will be rapidly consumed and need replacement.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    15. #35
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      I just did some testing today usiing the drops instead of the strip test method for the KH and GH.
      Dr Fishwells brand for aquariums is the only thing we have around here. The dang box was marked 75% off for some reason.
      I don't know why but it was all I could find.

      PH 9.61
      KH 6 drops to turn . 107.4
      GH I added 24 drops and the test tube stayed the same pee color.(sorry for that but it describes it best) Whats going on here. The test conversion chart only goes to 12 drops.

      I was hoping my UV part would be here today but UPS tracking says Friday.


      Has anyone heard of Flagstone leaching and causing high PH? I have had the same coping for 2 yrs and some folks are suggesting that it IS the rock,
      Thoughts please.

      Thanks a heap!

    16. #36
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      Do you have a PetsMart or Petco. Try and find the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits. their pretty good.

    17. #37
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      take a sample of the stone and crush it into a fine powder. an ounce will do. use your tap water - a cup or two is fine. test the water for ph first for your baseline. put the powdered stone in the water and heat to a boil and stir for a couple of minutes. let it cool and test for ph. if the ph does not change or goes down, you have ruled out the stone. if the ph goes up, then its possible the stone is the answer.

      the bottom line is that your chemistry says something is changing your ph, and you have a working hypothesis that its the stone. there may be other possibilities, and here are some thoughts. the other folks on this thread can confirm or deny. if your pond is well maintained and clean, then its something in the structure or something getting into it from outside the pond. you might even take a soil sample next to the pond and see what the ph is for that material. with those chemical readings, water ph doesn't go up in a pond. as for kh, you put 3 pounds of baking soda in the water yesterday, right? i would have expected that much baking soda to draw the ph down toward 8.4. with your fish load and a clean pond, the carbonate doesn't get consumed that fast by the biofilter or alga on the walls.

      i assume your fish remain healthy and are doing well in this process of analysis? as long as they are okay we can work through this with you.

    18. #38
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      need to get the gh up

      2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.

      Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.

    19. #39
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      Good suggestiion on testing the crushed stone. I can see what the koi are doing or look like right now. I did seal the exposed cement on the falls with PL after the cure.
      I am picking up the chems to try to get the GH up today.
      Yes. I did put 3 lbs of BS in yesterday.

      Thanks for work all of the input from everyone. I really do need help and so do my koi.

    20. #40
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      It is routine for pH to get up to the 9 to 10 range when algae is out of control and GH is low. Hopefully the test kit for GH is not working and GH is low, if so, adding calcium chloride flake will drop the pH in a day or two.

      Please be aware as the calcium chloride flake is added, the water "should" turn into a milky white appearance. If that happens, the pH is coming under control, because the way calcium chloride drops pH is to precipitate as calcium carbonate, removing carbonate ions. So a milky appearance of the pond for certainly the first day, and perhaps for several days, confirms the issue was low GH and that the pH should be dropping to the preferred range.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

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