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    Thread: Eric filter......is it really progress....?

    1. #1
      fkn001's Avatar
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      Question Eric filter......is it really progress....?

      In another neck of the woods, there is a discussion about the Eric filter, see http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/pond-c...hi-filter.html warning: Strong language, death wishes and explicit terms, rated NC-17

      I put the thumbscrews on Waddy, and after some initial squealing he most eagerly agreed (at this point the pressure was relieved slightly) that if there was any interest, all right, he will discuss Eric here on Koiphen, and hopefully it can be done in a civil and respectful way, other than that, no holds barred........

      Personally I have no experience with Eric, and are VERY interested in the first user feed-back, especially with regards to the 26-second-a-day-cleaning-that's-all-folks....just pull the stand pipe, no wet fingers and you are done........what do you think.....?

      more here http://www.ericpondfilters.com/ ......it actually says Eric Rocks.....
      /Flemming
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    2. #2
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      Even though Koiphen is by far the best forum on the net, that thread on bito is a hoot !!!

    3. #3
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      Phew!
      Hope you don't mind if I take shelter and get some rest on here.
      Thankfully i've only lost one ear and I have a few lash marks on my back but I still have ammo left.
      A coffee would help.

      Waddy.

    4. #4
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      would like to hear from the lady from France that just got one. I don't have one so can't say whats it like. The thread on koi-bito about eric, well just say, it was like a war zone of word bombs that really upset Waddys wife. Hope to hear more from Waddy about eric.

      Click for Lake Wales, Florida Forecast

    5. #5
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      well I did follow Bito's thread and really the only arguments was two fold.....

      Not a new concept...and...questioned the one minute clean -up???? The rest was throwing rocks at each other........quite amusing but sad to see.
      Jorge

    6. #6
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      I think it would be great if we can discuss the technical aspects of the filter as well as the function operation. If this can be done with out it becoming a knife and gun fight then Koiphen will benefit in the knowledge.
      Last edited by mtsklar; 07-26-2010 at 12:21 AM.

    7. #7
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      I believe there are some innovations on "flow dynamics" that equally distribute the water column through the bio media without channeling....but I'll let Waddy tell us..
      Jorge

    8. #8
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      will be watching this thread. I don't do koi-bito

    9. #9
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      I quit Koi Bito for that very reason. I'm sure we can discuss the merits/pitfalls of this system like we have most all other threads - with civility!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      I quit Koi Bito for that very reason. I'm sure we can discuss the merits/pitfalls of this system like we have most all other threads - with civility!
      Very Nice Post Mike. Folks, I have no experience, expertise or even opinions about the filter in question nor will I post pro or con about it

      But like Mike posted above, I would love to try to learn more about the pro's & cons of it with civility.

      Let's ask questions, give honest opinions & concerns, share pictures & actual experiences.

      Can someone please add a direct link from Waddy's site that points directly to the filtration method currently being discussed.

      Disclaimer: If the link has already been posted and I missed it I apologize. Mary is in North Dakota at the family's barn burning event and I am on HOLIDAY not to be confused with Doc Holiday necessarily

      D2 - some of them links are being closed tighter than a drum http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/pond-c...ond-build.html

      &
      Last edited by stephen; 07-25-2010 at 05:59 PM.

    11. #11
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      OK, to get the ball rolling.

      I believe with this filter it is recommended that the pond is turned over every 2.5 hours. i.e that the whole volume of the pond passes through the filter (or one of the filters if more than one is used) in this time.

      May I ask the basis for this recommendation, and why for example a shorter or longer turnover period is not preferable.
      Gibbo

      Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Buddha

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
      Very Nice Post Mike. Folks, I have no experience, expertise or even opinions about the filter in question nor will I post pro or con about it

      But like Mike posted above, I would love to try to learn more about the pro's & cons of it with civility.

      Let's ask questions, give honest opinions & concerns, share pictures & actual experiences.

      Can someone please add a direct link from Waddy's site that points directly to the filtration method currently being discussed.

      Disclaimer: If the link has already been posted and I missed it I apologize. Mary is in North Dakota at the family's barn burning event and I am on HOLIDAY not to be confused with Doc Holiday necessarily

      D2 - some of them links are being closed tighter than a drum http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/pond-c...ond-build.html

      &
      Stephen, the link to the filter web site is in post # 1
      /Flemming
      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________
      Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

      Eleanor Roosevelt
      US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

    13. #13
      stephen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by fkn001 View Post
      Stephen, the link to the filter web site is in post # 1
      Thanks M8 After me holidays I will make sure to read post #1

    14. #14
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      Gotta hand it to the folks at Bito as they surely try to stop the self-promotion (read free advertising) and look for sound advice and recommendations from actual users. Albeit in a non-professional way sometimes.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by gibbo View Post
      OK, to get the ball rolling.

      I believe with this filter it is recommended that the pond is turned over every 2.5 hours. i.e that the whole volume of the pond passes through the filter (or one of the filters if more than one is used) in this time.

      May I ask the basis for this recommendation, and why for example a shorter or longer turnover period is not preferable.
      Yes, your assumptions are correct and your question deserves to be answered - I'll try.

      Firstly, I make a point to steer away from the 'My unit filters XXXXX gallons', although I do appreciate that is what many like to read.

      The 2.5 hour total pond turnover is what is recommended but I do state up to a 15% plus or minus is also acceptable. This then produces a total pond turnover 'range' from minimum 2.1 hours to maximum 2.9 hours approximately with 2.5 being the average.

      The reasons mentioning the word 'turnover' are threefold -
      1. Simply give the user an indication as to the pump to be used on the system.
      2. To produce a reasonable pond base vacuum effect from the bottom drain in question.
      3. To supply the biological surfaces in the particular filter with a reasonably correct flow rate for those surfaces.

      In short the suggested turnover is to give a 'balancing act' that does justice to both the pond base and the performance of the unit.

      Obviously this is a 'simplification' - perhaps even an 'over simplification' but the website does try to explain in very great detail as to why I give the system the name 'complex simplicity'.

      The very first few parts of the website do not even mention the filters, instead they concentrate on pond base dimensions and then go on to cover water flow patterns.

      As we all know, there are few pond bases that are identical but I do show a diagram that suggests that a 4m x 4m base area with a CENTRALLY-PLACED bottom drain is just about the maximum area for the performance of one drain that can be reasonably expected.

      Of course, we are not going to get anywhere near the performance required if that drain is sited off to a corner.

      The same diagram then shows the water volume that same 4m square pond base area holds at different depths.

      It then goes on to detail the 'passes' per hour that water travels through the boxes etc.

      As I say, it is all covered on the website in great detail.

      Waddy.

    16. #16
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      Thanks for the reply. I appreciate there is a lot of the information on the website but this has left me with a number of questions which it would be great to get the answers to. Your reply also gives me a few more questions but it would be helpful for me to keep to one element at a time.

      I understand the explanation regarding working on a flow rate that is suitable for the bottom drain. Maybe I am correct in assuming that this was your starting point and then you designed the filter to suit the required / necessary flow rate.

      What I am really wondering on this is whether the 2.5 hours is the optimum turnover for a ponds volume, and why this would be so. ( I note the accepted 15% variation )

      I'm not sure if the turnover rate would be specific to a particular filter but maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part?

      What I really don't understand is the theory behind why 2.5 hours.

      Would 1 hour turnover be better or worse. Alternatively would 4 hours turnover be better or worse.
      Gibbo

      Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Buddha

    17. #17
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      In my opinion it is misleading to make such absolute values when it comes to filtering and calculation of pump flow in a koi pond.
      There are too many variables in a koi pond, such as fish density, feeding volumes, flow pattern in the pond. Temperature and location with respect to sunlight and algae tissue will also affect the flow demand.
      Each pond must be treated individually, unless there is a default setup that is tested with a specific fish stocks (which I dont think will come on the market, fortunately).
      There has been a lot of research in filtering of pond in the fish farming industry, but in this field they think the construction of the pond, and how the flow goes in the pond/tank is much more delicate than the filtration. The filtration is quite simple. You only need a volume with a great surface and good oxygenation. It is quite normal they take out the water on tree different places in the pond to make good circulation and good waste removal.
      So let us be honest, the filter is a simple thing. But it has to work, and I think the ERIC filters work, as many others, but most of the people have terrible circulation and a totally wrong flow pattern in their pond.
      My native language is Norwegian, so you must excuse me for typos and bad grammar.

    18. #18
      fkn001's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arne_Norway View Post
      In my opinion it is misleading to make such absolute values when it comes to filtering and calculation of pump flow in a koi pond.
      There are too many variables in a koi pond, such as fish density, feeding volumes, flow pattern in the pond. Temperature and location with respect to sunlight and algae tissue will also affect the flow demand.
      Each pond must be treated individually, unless there is a default setup that is tested with a specific fish stocks (which I dont think will come on the market, fortunately).
      There has been a lot of research in filtering of pond in the fish farming industry, but in this field they think the construction of the pond, and how the flow goes in the pond/tank is much more delicate than the filtration. The filtration is quite simple. You only need a volume with a great surface and good oxygenation. It is quite normal they take out the water on tree different places in the pond to make good circulation and good waste removal.
      So let us be honest, the filter is a simple thing. But it has to work, and I think the ERIC filters work, as many others, but most of the people have terrible circulation and a totally wrong flow pattern in their pond.
      This is also what I have been thinking.....the old 2 hour rule of thumb is fine, but if the flow/circulation is not good, i.e. dead spots, you could in theory re-filter most of the same water over and over. I have 28,000 Liters and have 2 pumps on the gravity filter, 13500 and 12000 Liters/hour respectively. I normally only use 1, which gives a theoretical turn-over of 2-3 hours. this is normally just fine, but if I see any rise in Nh3 and/or NO2 I start the second pump, i.e increase the turn-over, and I believe it is really the increased "turbulence", or better circulation, that actually take care of bringing the water parameters back to where they should be.

      any statements regarding a particular filter and how many Liters or Gallons of water it can handle is simply absurd. Biological load combined with the right circulation is what decides any given filters "capacity".

      Waddy, I saw on the other Fountain build thread that the relatively new DC variable Blue Eco pumps were used, is one of the reasons that turn-over can be increased/decreased as required in relation to water parameters ?
      /Flemming
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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arne_Norway View Post
      In my opinion it is misleading to make such absolute values when it comes to filtering and calculation of pump flow in a koi pond.
      There are too many variables in a koi pond, such as fish density, feeding volumes, flow pattern in the pond. Temperature and location with respect to sunlight and algae tissue will also affect the flow demand.
      Each pond must be treated individually, unless there is a default setup that is tested with a specific fish stocks (which I dont think will come on the market, fortunately).
      There has been a lot of research in filtering of pond in the fish farming industry, but in this field they think the construction of the pond, and how the flow goes in the pond/tank is much more delicate than the filtration. The filtration is quite simple. You only need a volume with a great surface and good oxygenation. It is quite normal they take out the water on tree different places in the pond to make good circulation and good waste removal.
      So let us be honest, the filter is a simple thing. But it has to work, and I think the ERIC filters work, as many others, but most of the people have terrible circulation and a totally wrong flow pattern in their pond.
      I agree with pretty much all that you say.
      It is foolish to generalise.
      Waddy.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by gibbo View Post
      Thanks for the reply. I appreciate there is a lot of the information on the website but this has left me with a number of questions which it would be great to get the answers to. Your reply also gives me a few more questions but it would be helpful for me to keep to one element at a time.

      I understand the explanation regarding working on a flow rate that is suitable for the bottom drain. Maybe I am correct in assuming that this was your starting point and then you designed the filter to suit the required / necessary flow rate.

      What I am really wondering on this is whether the 2.5 hours is the optimum turnover for a ponds volume, and why this would be so. ( I note the accepted 15% variation )

      I'm not sure if the turnover rate would be specific to a particular filter but maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part?

      What I really don't understand is the theory behind why 2.5 hours.

      Would 1 hour turnover be better or worse. Alternatively would 4 hours turnover be better or worse.
      Hi, one hour would be much worse and four hours also much worse.

      I do understand what you ask so I'll try to answer from another angle.

      In the case of the largest box as an example, it 'channels' a large volume of water through a narrow and shallow - albeit long-ish box.
      At the highest flow rate suggested of 2,200gph the large volume of water coming in from the drain travels along the box to the pump pick-up at the end when it is returned to the pond.
      It takes 3.15 minutes to make one full 'pass' and then the next 'pass' follows and so on.
      That works out at 19 passes per hour or 456 passes per day.
      Very little water can avoid coming into contact with the surfaces along the way.
      I do know I cannot produce 100% efficiency in getting ALL the incoming water to contact ALL the surfaces but I do estimate an 85% efficiency and I also do know how to improve on that.
      However it would increase equipment required and also hike running costs.
      But in truth this is not required as the contents of the entire box is dumped after 24 hours.

      The 'turnover' advice of once in 2.5 hours obviously determines the 'flow rate' through the box which is relatively 'gentle'.
      This is around the perfect dwell time I need.
      Reduce it to a 4 hour turnover and the pond base is hardly being serviced.
      Increase it to 1 hour and I do not have nearly enough dwell time.

      Hope this reply works better.

      Waddy.

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