Koi Keeping Basics

[Cowiche Ponder]

Hmmm I have an idea with my pond being in the middle of an active commercial orchard that it may be a good idea to have some of this in the filter system somewhere?
The pond is situated where it has the least possible chance of contamination but I have an idea this would be a smart addition just in case

Gene keep that price for awhile will yah? I need more cash flow before I can spring for that!

[Roddy Conrad]

Activated carbon will absorb all insecticides and fungacides to my best knowledge of the subject. So having activated carbon in a pond near a commercial orchard would be a very good idea.

[KNR]

Roddy good post..... I will print it out and distribute to our club......

Thanks for all you do......

Kay

[Thomas T]

I like to comment on two of the basics ...

The third basic is to keep some alkalinity in the water, meaning a pH over 7, preferably over 7.5, below 8.5, and chosen in a way where the pH can remain very stable. Without some alkalinity the biofiltration bacteria die, and when that happens, goodbye koi. How best to maintain alkalinity is very dependent on the variables of supply water alkalinity, stocking density, and water exchange rate. For those with high alkalinity in the water supply, nothing is usually needed to be added to the water, for those with little to no alkalinity in the supply water, the usual approach is to buffer the water with baking soda.

I undestand the important of KH in maintaining stable PH & healthy bio-filter. KH in moderation, say 100 -140 ppm, will still do all the above without raising PH too high. I'm not a fan of keeping PH higher than 8.0 for two reasons:
1. High PH is deadly to pond fish during ammonia spikes commonly occur in the spring and fall.
2. High PH causes calcification of pipes and equipment making them very hard to clean and maintain. For those with tile lined gunite ponds like mine, it'll leave a white ring at the water line.

The eight basic is oxygen, without enough dissolved oxygen the koi will fail to prosper and eventually die. So some way must be chosen to keep oxygen level up, both for the koi and for the biofiltration bacteria. The ways to do this are many, however! So we don't all agree on the right way to accomplish this basic. Some of use shower and trickle tower filters to supply oxygen to the water and to the biofilter, meaning that is how I accomplish this goal. Some with submerged media filters run air stones in the filters, and I agree that is a very good idea, it just isn't the way I chose to design my filtration system. Some put air domes and air stones in the pond, that helps, but is not as effective as shower or trickle tower filtration.

Of all the basics, I think this is the most important. However, oxygenation must couple with good circulation for its intended benefit. A well aerated pond should have no anaerobic pockets where anaerobic bacteria can flourish. This can be done using aerated bottom drains and wel placed TPRs. I believe most ulceration cases started with self inflicted trauma that progresses to infection caused by bacteria colonizing these anaerobic pockets. The same school of thought here had been used in Hyperbaric chambers (HBO) in woundcare centers where pressurized oxygen environment is used to treat soft tissue infections (i.e diabetes foot ulceration).

Anyway, I enjoy reading your pond keeping basics post and am glad to contribute my thoughs.

TT

[Roddy Conrad]

Quote: I undestand the important of KH in maintaining stable PH & healthy bio-filter. KH in moderation, say 100 -140 ppm, will still do all the above without raising PH too high. I'm not a fan of keeping PH higher than 8.0 for two reasons:
1. High PH is deadly to pond fish during ammonia spikes commonly occur in the spring and fall.
2. High PH causes calcification of pipes and equipment making them very hard to clean and maintain. For those with tile lined gunite ponds like mine, it'll leave a white ring at the water line. End Quote

Okay, let's talk details then. Higher pH can make ammonia more toxic when the biofiltration is not performing well. But, then, biofiltration performs better at higher pH as well. So it is sort of the chicken or the egg, which came first? Obviously if we already have high ammonia, and the pH is low, we don't want to increase pH without chemically binding the ammonia, that is why ChlorAmX and Amquel see brisk sales in trouble seasons. So for the trouble periods you describe, buy a good ammonia binder and USE IT.

For the record, not a lot of ponders run the high pH with baking soda I personally prefer. So I understand my views on that subject are not usually well recieved. Here is the deal in my situation. The water comes in with an acid pH and no alkalinity from the city tap. At my stocking density, shells or anything that has to dissolve can't keep up with the alkalinity demand of the biofiltration system. Unless I add baking soda to the "normal buffered value of 8.2-8.3", I would have to add baking soda daily to keep the pH stable. Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of my days get pretty busy. I don't want to have to measure alkalinity every day or two for more baking soda addition. So in my unique circumstance, the only way my biofilters are going to fed enough alkalinity, and keep a stable pH for the fish, is to run the alkalinity up above 150 ppm with baking soda.

What works best for your supply water, your stocking density, and your water chemistry may also be unique to your circumstance. So I am not arguing, just explaining my views in more detail on this subject.

The Spring/Fall thing. My filters seldom have problems with spring or fall, but they also cycle fast. But when I had poorer filter systems, I had the spring problem, but not a fall problem. I don't understand why a filter would falter in the fall, unless it was simply overcome with leaf fall into the pond, which can create significant filtration issues. The leaf issue is one of a well designed and sited pond, either don't have trees that give a high leaf fall into the water, or put in mechanical filter systems that rapidly remove the leaves. My vortex settling system does a good job of leaf removal. Without it, I would have to net my pond in the leaf fall season.

If you have hard water, then increasing pH will cause calcium carbonate to precipitate out of solution to give the white ring you describe. That is a problem to which I can't relate since my water supply has a non-detectable hardness it is so soft. But I do understand the issue, it makes sense. Usually hard water is also alkaline, if that is the case the better way to handle this issue may be simple water change to maintain alkalinity.

But, hey, the meds are starting to work, I hope I can get some sleep tonight if that chest congestion will let loose long enough during this "creeping crud" flu to allow a night's sleep.

See ya around the pond tomorrow....

[JPR]

Allow me to summarize---

How to properly keep koi improperly

------ or -------

How to properly overstock a koi pond!


( Sorry, the devil made me do it!)

carry on, JR

[Roddy Conrad]

Well, the chest congestion is not allowing me any sleep again tonight.

And, of course, JR has a valid point he makes in passing.

I normally keep high stocking densities of large koi. Right now is the lowest my indoor pond has been stocked in many winters, because Lizzie and I have made it a program to give away large koi for many years now to reduce the stocking density to a more "normal" level. I can keep any stocking density I choose using my techniques of ponding. But at the highest stocking density I ran, namely about one very large koi for each 70 gallons of water, the pond was wall to wall koi and it just was not pretty to the eyes. A more reasonable stocking density certainly "looks better" to the eyes, and is a lot easier to maintain.

Even so, my ponds normally use 10 to 20 ppm alkalinity a day, at my reduced stocking densities and feed rates. If we started with only 100 ppm alkalinity, we would have pH crash in less than a week to kill the koi.

So JR says my lesson is not in "properly keeping koi", but properly overstocking a koi pond, and for the portion of the koi culture he represents, it is a valid point.

I don't think there are very many in the hobby, however, who limit their koi to one koi every 500 to 2000 gallons. The slang in the hobby for these folks are "the five fish wonders", meaning they have learned how to keep 5 koi alive in a 10,000 gallons pond. Doing so is not much of a technical challenge, from my view!

But let's give credit where credit is due, a very low stocking density does make for a better life for the koi, less health problems, and easier koi keeping. That is all JR is saying, and it is certainly a valid point.

How many of you are able to resist that "one more koi" you see in those vats for sale at koi shows? Just checking.....

[Cowiche Ponder]

How many of you are able to resist that "one more koi" you see in those vats for sale at koi shows? Just checking.....

Mainly because I've never BEEN to a koi show I don't know if it is going to help me or hurt me..but my taste in koi has changed in the last 6 months. What I want now will cost more.... ummm it will probably just hurt more in the pocket book...


Roddy is there a thread somewhere with your filtration set up?

[Roddy Conrad]

I don't remember if I wrote a thread about my filtration setups on this board or not.

We have two main koi ponds, and 8 smaller koi test ponds. And we have two water gardens stocked with golden orfes and Sarassa comets.

All of the 8 test ponds have identical filters. They are simple shower filters run from submersible pumps. They cycle fast, they keep ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate at levels most test kits can't read (below normal detection limits). I use these 8 test tanks to test my theories on actual koi before risking our more valued collection in the two main koi ponds.

The "inside basement koi pond" is simply a 15 feet diameter above ground swimming pool. Four inch pipe goes through a hole in the wall by gravity to a pair of 40 inch diameter settling tanks. Then the flow splits to two paths. One path is through a 4.4 cubic feet bead filter and back into the pond. The other path is into an 8 feet long, 4 feet wide, 4 feet high homemade tank filled with plastic scrub pads and other media. At the end of that homemade tank are 4 submersible pumps each feeding separate 50 gallon trickle tower filters, which dump back into the pond. They are filled with Siporax sintered glass and bioballs.

There is a separate homemade shower filter sitting in the middle of the 15 feet diameter above ground swimming pool. It sits on 6 huge chimney tiles above the water. There are 6 of KoiBoy's plastic shower crates in this shower filter, the bottom layer filled with lava rock, the top layer filled with bioballs. I couldn't lift the lava rock to the height of the top row, so chose the lighter bioballs instead. This shower filter is run from a submersible pump at 3000 gallon per hour flow rate through a homemade spray bar made out of 4 inch PVC.

There is a 1000 watt metal halide grow light on a timer keeping lilies blooming all winter long in the indoor koi pond, the koi love to have the lilies around, or at least that is our perception.

The outdoor koi pond is somewhat more complicated. Another time for it. Maybe some pictures as well, when I feel up to it.

[Koin-Onia]

[QUOTE What about putting some activated carbon in the basket strainer going to a pump?[/QUOTE]

I tryed that. Seriously effects the 'draw' of the pump.

[JPR]

Roddy, you sir are becoming a good sport! Or it may just be the fever! You know I agree with most of your basic beginner points, but not all. I'm all about trying to help the beginner to see the big picture and not just swinging at the 'hard pitches' as fast as they come over the plate! That is where you and I will always differ.

JR

[Roddy Conrad]

Thanks, JR, and I do wish the fever would break, even if it is making me act wierd.

I put this thread up thinking a few may get some useful information from it. I don't consider it significant, just something to occupy my mind to focus on something other than feeling poorly.

I have never tried putting activated carbon in the pump trap. The main worry there is that the activated carbon would reduce flow to the pump. Certainly the activated carbon would have plenty of contact with the water.

[Cowiche Ponder]

I think I will have at least one spot that I have water going through the carbon and planning on having 2. The pond is pretty well protected on 3 sides from where most of the spraying goes on and is more than 30 feet from the 4th side (30 feet is the organic guidelines between organic and non-organic orchards) but I may put up some kind of screen there either trees or even a fence. Will just tell Dad to spray if the wind is blowing and it's coming from the pond and not towards it.

Hope you are feeling better Roddy. I appreciated this thread.

[hacnp]

I don't think there are very many in the hobby, however, who limit their koi to one koi every 500 to 2000 gallons. The slang in the hobby for these folks are "the five fish wonders", meaning they have learned how to keep 5 koi alive in a 10,000 gallons pond. Doing so is not much of a technical challenge, from my view!

But let's give credit where credit is due, a very low stocking density does make for a better life for the koi, less health problems, and easier koi keeping. That is all JR is saying, and it is certainly a valid point.

How many of you are able to resist that "one more koi" you see in those vats for sale at koi shows? Just checking.....

That would be us at this point. Tomorrow will be the 1 year anniversary for having fish in the pond, 13 fish from 8 to 24 in. in a system of over 12000 Gal. Its very hard to resist the tanks of fish and the online fish, but we want to slowly upgrade our collection and I personally cant see having more than about 18 to 20 fish in our pond. This means culling and we have a friend with a 1/2 acre pond that is waiting for our culls. Poor fish!

Regards, Ken

[Roddy Conrad]

One adult koi over 20 inches long per each 500 to 1000 gallons certainly makes koi keeping much easier. For those who understand that early, their koi keeping hobby can be more relaxed with fewer health problems.

At my highest stocking density, I had 70 large koi in a 4000 gallon indoor pond system. Now the same system is running 25 large koi with even more filtration added; koi were given away to other hobbyists until the stocking density "looked right" to our eyes with a reasonable amount of water between the koi so we could see them individually. Needless to say it is much easier to maintain the system with fewer koi. And those who took our excess koi away do seem to enjoy them.

A better" water source also really helps koi keeping! Keith Berland said earlier in this thread how easy ponding is in his locality in the greater Chicago area, and that is because the water supply there is "perfect" for koi keeping. It is loaded with trace minerals, it has the perfect alkalinity and General Hardness balance. So, with that water supply, like Keith says, put a few koi in the pond, do occasional water exchange, and ENJOY! The mistake is to assume others can do the same with inferior water quality sources for koi keeping.

For those who wished me well, the fever broke last night and my breathing eased up to feel much better this morning. I hope to be able to do a few outside Spring things in the bright sunshine this morning, and I do appreciate some sunshine! I don't know for sure what the high fever and poor breathing did to my mind earlier in this thread, if I messed something up, certainly I expect someone to tell me about it!

[Roddy Conrad]

For those of you who may wonder what the "perfect" water supply for koi keeping would look like, you can click up an analysis of the Chicago water supply and read the numbers at:

http://www.cityofchicago.org/WaterMa...mpChm03aug.pdf

The variables of real interest in this analysis are:

Total alkalinity is stable in the 100 to 120 ppm range, ideal for water exchange and providing alkalinity from source water

General hardness is stable at 140 ppm

Ammonia nitrogen is at the 0.01 to 0.02 ppm range

Nitrite nitrogen is below .01 ppm

Nitrate nitrogen is 0.3 ppm

Calcium is 30 to 40 ppm

Magnesium is 12 ppm

Potassium is 1 to 2 ppm

Sodium is 7 ppm

Manganese runs 4 to 5 ppb (parts per billion), but most koi pellet foods already have some manganese formulated so manganese is not a water requirement if the koi food is properly formulated.

Phosphate runs 1 ppm usually, this level of phosphate can promote algae blooms, but is a lot better than the 5 to 30 ppm phosphate in my water supply!

Calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and manganese are all required trace minerals for koi keeping, the water supply from Chicago (from the Great Lakes) is ideal in their content.

The water supply is filtered through activated carbon during summer months.

[schildkoi]

Roddy you ign....... Oops, that is SNL, this is Koiphen

As, I responded to Roddy when he originally posted this (without the additions), There may not be one true way, but there are right ways and wrong ways. Some ways better than others and some worse than others but right is still right and wrong is still wrong. Roddy's original post was farely vague by point but I see he's added some specifics that I tend not to agree with and others that perhaps needed some clarification. So here it is by point:

The first basic is do not plan to keep koi past their second year in a pond less than 1000 gallons. Koi will not develop a good body shape in ponds less than 1000 gallons when they are more than two years old, and it gets pretty hard to keep the water quality up in ponds smaller than 1000 gallons when your koi develop to their "normal" 24 to 30 inches in length size.

“Spot On” Roddy. Although there are exception to every rule, any exceptions to this one would be difficult to achieve since larger Koi need exercise to maintain body shape and smaller ponds have a difficult time in smaller, shallow ponds. Even lerge shallow ponds tend to cause pigeon breasting in body shape.

The second basic is put in enough filtration to keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.5 ppm, preferably lower, at whatever stocking density is chosen to be maintained. There is very little agreement on the "right way" to do filtration! There are many paths to a great filtration system, and most of them are not described in any koi hobby related books. Meaning there are thousands of ways to install a great filtration system, and millions of ways to mess it up!

There are really only 3 types of filtration, mechanical, biological, and chemical. Mechanical can be further broken down into active (screens as an example), or passive (vortex or other settlement). Biological is separated into two types, Submerged and shower (throw foam fractionation in here too). Then there is chemical style filters such as activated carbon and zeolite. Most all of these are covered in “good” Koi books, but the “devil is in the details”. Each pond system tends to be unique and a total system must designed for the specifics of that overall system. Although on the surface, I would tend to disaqgree with Roddy on face value that filter systems are not covered in books, when digging in deeper, Roddy is correct that there are a million ways to screw them up due to the far ranging possibilities due to the uniqueness of each individual application.

The third basic is to keep some alkalinity in the water, meaning a pH over 7, preferably over 7.5, below 8.5, and chosen in a way where the pH can remain very stable. Without some alkalinity the biofiltration bacteria die, and when that happens, goodbye koi. How best to maintain alkalinity is very dependent on the variables of supply water alkalinity, stocking density, and water exchange rate. For those with high alkalinity in the water supply, nothing is usually needed to be added to the water, for those with little to no alkalinity in the supply water, the usual approach is to buffer the water with baking soda.

Here’s where Roddy and I get disjointed…go figure!  The actual best range for a Ph within a pond is actually preferred to be between 7 and 7.5. The lower Ph value tends to help the luster of the skin quality of the Koi. This is not to say that higher ranges are detrimental to the health of the Koi and in fact these lower ranges adds complexities to maintaining he system as Roddy suggests…low alkalinity/buffering capacities. Although the “Usual” approach for Roddy and his limited exposure to this area may be Baking Soda, This method of maintaining buffering capacity is typically limited to a very narrow section of the Koi hobby. The more “usual” and universal approach world wide is NOT baking soda, but calcium carbonate more typically in the form of shells, Oyster shells to be exact. Baking Soda IMMEDIATELY changes the water chemistry when added. Although Koi are an adaptive species, changing the Ph from 7.5 to 8.4 in under a minute due to the addition of Baking Soda is NOT a good thing and would be unheard of by “the masters”.
Oyster shells (full or crushed), will dissolve in relationship to the Ph and usage by the biofiltration. As Ph drops the oyster shell dissolves faster adding the needed buffering capacity to the water. The amount of shells needed is dependent on the size of the pond and the amount of water flow through/over the shells….along with the amount of shells employed. BS has become popular simply because it is a “quick fix” or appears to be so. The detrimental effects on the water chemistry and the Koi themselves make this an unacceptable practice throughout the rest of the world.

The fourth basic is to keep control of green water algae with either biofiltration or UV lights to avoid the pH bounce sunrise to sunset (low at sunrise, high at sunset), meaning the pH bounce sunrise/sunset should be kept below 0.3 pH units.

Roddy and I are in agreement here but I would add that the single cell algae is dependent on nutrients, light (duration and intensity), and water temperature. Adding biofiltration is the most preferable method since added benefits are obtained by reducing the ambient nutrient levels (ammonia, Nitrite, nitrate). Shade helps to address not only the light issues, but also the water temperature issues. Lower water temps in turn leads to increased O2 levels maintained within the water itself, another advantage. UVs can be very beneficial during spring start up when biofiltration is still building up. Past that, it typically (but not always) tends to be a band aid for poor system design/operation.

The fifth basic is to keep parasites under adequate control so they don't ruin the health of the koi, there are many different ways to approach that subject, no one true way has to be chosen for parasite control. But an effective way must be chosen. Otherwise, long term health of the koi are likely to be compromised. Parasites run a close second to inadequate filtration as the source of koi health problems.

Well, if there is a way other than pristine water maintained through good system design/maintenance, limited/controlled exposures (QT as an example), I’d sure like to know it. Parasitic infestation occur after introduction simply because conditions warrant such. Limit the exposure and maintain favorable conditions for the Koi (unfavorable for the parasites) and the likelihood of a problem quickly reduces itself down to next to nothing.

The sixth basic is to prevent viruses (KHV and SVC are the most notable) from getting in the koi pond to give a wipeout of the hobbyist's koi collection. The ways to do that get pretty narrow, I must admit! But we don't all agree on the "right way", nevertheless.

The issue of QT has changed vastly over the last few years. I can remember when Roddy was taunting 3-6 months. I think the current recommendation is back down to the original 4-6 week mark?

The seventh basic is to feed the koi something good for them to eat, at the times they should be eating, without overfeeding them to foul the water. We certainly don't all agree on the details of this basic, but the koi do need food!

The amount of food to feed is dependent on the calories burned and the ability of the filtration system to process the waste. Seasonal diets should be used to match with the caloric requirements needed during changing conditions.

The eight basic is oxygen, without enough dissolved oxygen the koi will fail to prosper and eventually die. So some way must be chosen to keep oxygen level up, both for the koi and for the biofiltration bacteria. The ways to do this are many, however! So we don't all agree on the right way to accomplish this basic. Some of use shower and trickle tower filters to supply oxygen to the water and to the biofilter, meaning that is how I accomplish this goal. Some with submerged media filters run air stones in the filters, and I agree that is a very good idea, it just isn't the way I chose to design my filtration system. Some put air domes and air stones in the pond, that helps, but is not as effective as shower or trickle tower filtration.

I agree with Roddy that maintaining O2 at “saturation” for the given water temp is critical. Lower water temps helps increase this level of saturation as well. Whatever method is employed to accomplish this goal, remember that it is a “system” and any one component interacts with other components. Shower/trickle filters are an excellent way to introduce O2 while at the same time providing filtration. Airstones in submerged media filters or domes, like shower/trickle filters, are secondary to their real purpose though…a side benefit so to speak. Airstones in a submerged media filter actually serve the purpose of keeping the media clean of debris that would otherwise settle upon it and reduce the operating efficiency of the system. Air dome on drains provide for water movement that mixing the pond water and helps to pull solids to the drain for removal from the overall system through filtration, again O2 saturation is a side benefit of this action. The removal of solids from a pond is critical to good Koi keeping and probably the single most important factor in a back yard recalculating system.

The ninth basic is enough trace mineral content for good koi health and coloration. The biofiltration bacteria need the same trace minerals, so this basic is doubly important. In some ponds, the supply water has enough trace minerals, in others it is missing. The usual approaches to the water being lacking in trace minerals are adding bentonite clay (such as Koi Clay), Epsom salt to increase magnesium content, calcium chloride to increase calcium content. The symptoms of low trace mineral content is loss of koi coloration, low GH measurements, and high nitrites since nitrite conversion is more highly dependent on trace minerals than ammonia conversion.

Remember, its “Trace” mineral content. Too much of a good thing can turn bad in a hurry. The addition of uneeded compounds can lead to results other than expected including undesirable algaes. A good bentonite clay should be all that is needed on most circumstances.

The tenth basic is to avoid contamination of the pond by chlorine, soap, pesticides, and polluted rain from the sky. Or, if that is an issue, install on line activated carbon filtration to remove contaminants as they enter the pond.

Here comes a double edged sword. Although an activated carbon filter could be beneficial for emergency situations, left online they can quickly become ineffective and detrimental to the system, trapping crap and building biofilm. In addition, if not thoroughly cleaned after each use, and dried, the reuse could have detrimental effects as well. The real key that Roddy stated is to avoid these things (or minimize the lijelihood in the first place).

The eleventh basic is to find some way to "refresh the water" to avoid pheromone and DOC buildup. Some prefer water exchange, others like ozone, using activated carbon to absorb the pheromones and DOC works. I have another preference in my peculiar situation, namely low level PP oxidation of the DOC and pheromones. As long as it is done well, with proper precautions, any approach can be made to work. If this is ignored, the koi won't grow well and their colors will be poor.

NO, NO, NO! PP is an indiscriminant oxidizer (as is ozone but at least in a more controlled environment) and will oxidize the beneficial components to the water and environment……along with the Koi. This original “low dose” concept was 3ppm but a few years ago and Roddy has dropped this level repeatedly over the last 5 years to this new “safe” level. One lesson in Koi keeping as in the medical community is to “do no harm”. A pond that is repeatedly treated through chemicals that effect its biology can never attain its biological balance and thus becomes more susceptible to shifts in its water chemistry….never a good thing.

The twelth basic is to keep some injectible antibiotics on hand when a fish needs some help recovering from an illness! And the knowhow of how to safely use the injectibles.

Amen Roddy! Nothing worse than to need something (not only antibiotics) and not having it readily available. Even the best systems harbor bacteria and can adversely affect the Koi.

And, hey, the thirteenth or first basic is to have some water for the koi, they do prefer to be in the water! The rules of thumb are to have 500 gallons of water per adult koi, which can be pushed down to 200 gallons per large koi with really superior filtration systems that are well maintained.

No argument here Roddy. The key is educating folks to understand what superior filtration really is and that the a pond is a “system” and should be looked at in a holistic manner.

I was out of town for a few days...sorry it took me a while to respond. I hope you are feeling better Roddy.

Steve
__________________

[Roddy Conrad]

As anyone reading this with interest can see, Childers and I agree on the koi keeping basics about 99.5% of the time. And when we do not agree, "the devil is in the details". So with a very positive response to Steve's well written words, on the one out of 200 times we don't agree on some very small details, here are those details again with my comments:

Steve:
Here’s where Roddy and I get disjointed…go figure!  The actual best range for a Ph within a pond is actually preferred to be between 7 and 7.5. The lower Ph value tends to help the luster of the skin quality of the Koi. This is not to say that higher ranges are detrimental to the health of the Koi and in fact these lower ranges adds complexities to maintaining he system as Roddy suggests…low alkalinity/buffering capacities. Although the “Usual” approach for Roddy and his limited exposure to this area may be Baking Soda, This method of maintaining buffering capacity is typically limited to a very narrow section of the Koi hobby. The more “usual” and universal approach world wide is NOT baking soda, but calcium carbonate more typically in the form of shells, Oyster shells to be exact. Baking Soda IMMEDIATELY changes the water chemistry when added. Although Koi are an adaptive species, changing the Ph from 7.5 to 8.4 in under a minute due to the addition of Baking Soda is NOT a good thing and would be unheard of by “the masters”.
Oyster shells (full or crushed), will dissolve in relationship to the Ph and usage by the biofiltration. As Ph drops the oyster shell dissolves faster adding the needed buffering capacity to the water. The amount of shells needed is dependent on the size of the pond and the amount of water flow through/over the shells….along with the amount of shells employed. BS has become popular simply because it is a “quick fix” or appears to be so. The detrimental effects on the water chemistry and the Koi themselves make this an unacceptable practice throughout the rest of the world.

Roddy's response: Hey, if you can dependably keep the pH stable and above 7.0 by some means other than baking soda, go for it! No argument! But for those of us without any alkalinity in our supply water, and with stocking densities of less than 500 gallons per adult koi, many of us find no other way than baking soda to maintain a safe alkalinity and stable pH. So we while we agree on the principles, we don't agree on the practical details for "every ponder and every pond". There are many in the koi show culture on the NI board who are willing to admit they also have to use baking soda, they find no other practical way to keep the alkalinity in the right range. The shells just won't dissolve fast enough.

Steve:
The issue of QT has changed vastly over the last few years. I can remember when Roddy was taunting 3-6 months. I think the current recommendation is back down to the original 4-6 week mark?

Roddy: I am okay with 4 to 6 weeks quarantine time if all the 4 to 6 weeks are in the 65F to 80F temperature range where KHV will break. If the quarantine is in water with temperatures either below 65F, or above 85F, the quarantine is meaningless. The 3 to 6 months previous figure was to insure the ponder quarantined in water in that temperature range. Okay, Steve?

Steve:
Remember, its “Trace” mineral content. Too much of a good thing can turn bad in a hurry. The addition of uneeded compounds can lead to results other than expected including undesirable algaes. A good bentonite clay should be all that is needed on most circumstances.

Roddy: My direct experience with my water which comes in at zero GH is that calcium bentonite alone will not prevent koi coloration loss in that situation. There needs to be some measurable GH, that is my point. Something at least 40 ppm in a GH test. If the GH is not detectable, I find loss of koi coloration in my specific tests. Get it up to some reasonable value and bentonite clay will fix the rest. The problem is apparently if the magnesium and calcium level is too low, bentonite clay alone won't do the job. Only those with extremely soft water can relate to this specific problem.

Steve:
NO, NO, NO! PP is an indiscriminant oxidizer (as is ozone but at least in a more controlled environment) and will oxidize the beneficial components to the water and environment……along with the Koi. This original “low dose” concept was 3ppm but a few years ago and Roddy has dropped this level repeatedly over the last 5 years to this new “safe” level. One lesson in Koi keeping as in the medical community is to “do no harm”. A pond that is repeatedly treated through chemicals that effect its biology can never attain its biological balance and thus becomes more susceptible to shifts in its water chemistry….never a good thing.

Roddy: In my hands, when PP is used ONLY to use up the DOC content, and is not added in excess, it won't hurt the koi. To do that so precisely takes some knowledge and practice, I admit! I have been doing it for 9 years now, continously, it works for me. My present practice bears no relationship to the use of PP for eradicating parasites. However, cleaning up the pond with low level PP before using "better" chemicals (such as Proform C, Formalin, Supaverm, Dimilin, Flubenol 5% (flubendazole)) cleans up the pond to allow the other chemicals to have a longer lifetime and a much better probability of killing the parasites. So this is a subject I expect Steve and I are "less likely" to come to an agreement.

By the way, low level PP treatment in this context are small doses in the 0.1 ppm to 0.5 ppm range, usually added while watching the lifetime of the dose on an ORP meter and by the color of the water in the pond. When the ORP meter reads a value above 400 (and the water is pink), the PP is active, when the ORP reading falls below 400 (and the pink is gone), there is no active PP in the water. The exact ORP reading for no active PP is temperature and pH dependent, higher temperatures give lower ORP readings, lower temperatures give higher ORP readings, higher pH levels give lower ORP readings, lower pH levels give higher ORP readings. So watching the color is as important as watching an ORP meter reading. Basically the low level PP treatment is to add very small charges, wanting the pink to be consumed in less than 15 minutes. But if the pink only lasts 5 minutes, it is time for another low level charge. The problem with this practice is that it is confused with the high levels of PP used for parasite eradication, which are hazardous to koi health. Those levels are more typically 2 to 4 ppm.

Roddy's last comment: Steve made his points very nicely and well written, and I have no problem with his post. So no attacks on him, please. "We are all getting along, right?"

[ChrisC]

Roddy, you said:

There is a 1000 watt metal halide grow light on a timer keeping lilies blooming all winter long in the indoor koi pond, the koi love to have the lilies around, or at least that is our perception.

My question is this--most people notice the hi or red color fading on their fish when they do not get sunlight. Do you notice the hi fading on your fish when you keep them inside under a metal halide lamp?

I am trying to figure out if hi strength is influenced by the blue or the yellow light spectrum.

My new pond is going to be in a greenhouse where the koi will get natural sunlight. However, I have metal halide and high pressure sodium lights in there too--and I am wondering what that will mean.

[Roddy Conrad]

Most of the koi which spend the winter in the indoor pond spend the summer in the outdoor pond. The red or hi color is better when the koi are in the sunlight. However, the red or hi color does stay very nice in the indoor pond with the metal halide grow light, the difference one must observe on many koi over several years to distinguish the difference. Then there is the other problem, namely that the same koi with the same coloration on the same day, looks much better when it is in sunlight. That is obvious if you bowl a koi, look at it inside, then carry it outside in the sunlight.

In a greenhouse, I would not expect you to need additional lighting to maintain koi coloration. For example, in the greenhouses in the pictures of top Japanese breeders, where their top koi spend the winter, I don't see any significant additional lighting.

In very sunny climates, such as Southern California, often there is a pergola erected over the koi pond to filter the sunlight to make it less intense. When the sun is too intense, some koi actually appear to "sunburn".