Nitrite spike

**auntiesue** · 08-25-2005

Originally Posted by Lee B

Susan, Amquel+ will not help your nitrItes at this time - please take my word on this. I don't know if Prime will or won't, but the Amquel+ won't.

Karl and I have agreed to disagree regarding the use of salt

. Salt has its uses - and it can be overused and misused, I agree. The chloride ions in salt become more numerous than the nitrite's ions; chloride is easier for the gills to take up; if they get saturated with chloride, they don't take up nitrIte. Salt is cheap and readily available: you have a problem NOW, not next Tuesday, which is when your products from AES will be delivered.

Salt as a medicine is useless; salt for its chloride ions can be invaluable. This comes from a child of the 60's/70's: "Better Living Through Chemistry" was my mantra

. I use chemicals when needed; choride is a chemical.

Maybe this will explain it better: http://www.koiquest.co.uk/nitrite.htm

It's your pond and your decision. We're only here to advise.

Lee

Oh, BTW: if you can rig up a BIG TT quickly, you may be able to gas off the problem in a few weeks.

I agree with Lee and Karl on this one. Salt is cheaper and it works. Prime also did well for me while cycling my new pond. Haven't had good luck using Amquil for NitrIte control either Lee. Wonder what that's all about????

**Lee B** · 08-25-2005

The product is new. Anomalies were noted during its formulation. Further research needs to be conducted to support its claims. There are vagaries and inconsistencies. They're working on it. What works with marine water doesn't necessarily follow with fresh water.

I liked it because it didn't drop DO so much/rapidly as my experience with Prime. To be honest and cut Prime a "fair break", the time I used it, it was not yet claiming to neutralize nitrItes/nitrAtes. Maybe the new formulation is different.

Were you able to support with tests that "now there's nitrItes/now there's not" with Prime?

I hope something works. It would be nice to be able to negate nitrIte without the salt so that if further "chemical assistance" is needed

, the salt won't be interferring with the treatment of choice.

Meanwhile, a big honkin' TT will degas the stuff outta there. Or it should.

Lee

**auntiesue** · 08-25-2005

Good info Lee!!! Thanks!!! I assume you are talking about Prime????? Do you know what issues were seen using this product???

**Lee B** · 08-25-2005

Originally Posted by auntiesue

Good info Lee!!! Thanks!!! I assume you are talking about Prime????? Do you know what issues were seen using this product???

No, I'm referring to the Amquel+. I don't know about Prime because I've always had a bias against it (once it killed my babies one time

) That's why I asked if you could verify tests with Prime. Like I got nitrItes at .5, then I added the stuff and Lo and Behold! no nitrItes registering anymore

Yes?

Lee

**Susan Day** · 08-25-2005

Success! (Partial anyway...) Just got home and did second water change of the day, plus addition of 2nd dose of baking soda and clay, and added two 16 oz. bottles amquel+. Ammonia 0, Nitrite .5, ph 7 and kh still low, around 40. I will buy some salt tomorrow and continue twice daily monitoring, and add salt if needed. The article at koiquest made alot of sense, and I have read about the koi need for salt.

Doesn't baking soda contain sodium? Does this help at all? Or is it a different kind of salt? I didn't order a salt test kit with my order today, so I hope Petco has one.

I added 10 tbsp clay this morning and tonight. Should I add more? I was doing reading about clay for human use online and it said the clay takes poisons out of the body (and medicines) such as mercury, so it seems a clay-murky pond is a good pond.

Is the baking soda at 4 tbsp twice a day sufficient? I don't want to shock them, but I want to get the kh up.

Oh, here are some pics of the pond construction in progress. The latest photos are under "Edging".

http://photobucket.com/albums/b142/SKDay/

**Susan Day** · 08-25-2005

I've been trying to figure out how to add a TT. I was thinking that when the stream is built (hopefully this year) I could locate it at the head of the stream. If I put it with the filter and pump I would need a second pump to push the water to the head of the stream, but that might be a lot less distracting than a big TT at the head of the stream. Hmmmm.....

**Koin-Onia** · 08-25-2005

When you add salt make sure it is solar salt or its equal.

**Lee B** · 08-25-2005

Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is different. You need to add more: your KH is up to 40, but it should be over 200 to help your filter.

Here's one of the Catch 22's: under normal circumstances, lower pH means ammonia is less toxic. But you need the KH to feed the filter, which will raise the pH, which makes the ammonia more toxic. So make sure you have a lot of binder available. Watch your ammonia like a hawk.

A TT at the head of the stream is a very good location. But if you could get one jerry-rigged NOW, it will get your parameters under control before winter sets in. You can permanently place it later.

Lee

**Noahsnana** · 08-25-2005

Originally Posted by Susan Day

I've been trying to figure out how to add a TT. I was thinking that when the stream is built (hopefully this year) I could locate it at the head of the stream. If I put it with the filter and pump I would need a second pump to push the water to the head of the stream, but that might be a lot less distracting than a big TT at the head of the stream. Hmmmm.....

Susan remember the TT can be temporary it doesn't matter what it looks like... the kh needs to come up a great deal...you are crashing the fish will die if left unchecked or something done.

**auntiesue** · 08-25-2005

Originally Posted by Lee B

No, I'm referring to the Amquel+. I don't know about Prime because I've always had a bias against it (once it killed my babies one time

) That's why I asked if you could verify tests with Prime. Like I got nitrItes at .5, then I added the stuff and Lo and Behold! no nitrItes registering anymore

Yes?

Lee

Yes, the only way I knew how to verify was with a test kit for Nitrites. I assumed there was no conflict with the regent and the reading was zero after the first dose of Prime. From that point on I dosed the pond one more time 3 days later then waited to see if the nitrites would climb. Just so happened that the pond finished cycling by then so all was well and I didn't need to use it any further. I was very fortunate in that the new pond cycled in less than 2 weeks. It's been steady ever since.

**Susan Day** · 08-25-2005

The TT is a necessity, then. I'll have to get creative with a DIY rig. And I thought everything was getting better and I could relax a bit. Any recommendations for a cheap and easy set-up?

This is so complicated. I had read about kh and baking soda, but I didn't realize it would be such a quick turnaround; I kind of thought I could get my filter cycled and then worry about stuff like kh.....

**auntiesue** · 08-26-2005

When a filter is new it consumes great quantities of bicarbs (kh) so watching this is very important. Add to that you have a bead filter in the system. Once my ponds settle down for the season after spring start up, all I test for is KH. I keep a very close eye on it. I test for the others if I see signs of trouble. But my ponds are matured and have been running for many years now (except for the new pond).

**Lee B** · 08-26-2005

OK Sue, you were able to test and verify (Now you see it/now you don't). I'll pick up some Prime today and see what happens. I'll also check my DO pre/post and see how that does, too.

Being as it appears the storm will miss us completely and I don't have to worry about being inundated with rain, I'll do a healthy water change and then do the Prime to see what I can see!

(Karl - I may have to eat my words about Prime

)

Lee

**Susan Day** · 08-26-2005

Just an update: I've started a new thread asking for advice about constructing a TT on the main board.
Tonight my readings are 0 ammonia, .5 nitrite, 7.5 ph and 40 kh. I put in another 4 tbsp baking soda this morning, 10 handfuls clay, and will repeat tonight.

**Eluned** · 08-26-2005

Susan - your KH is very low. Why are you only adding 4 tablespoons of baking soda at a time? I think you are off by a factor of 10.

You should be running around 200 ppm with a bead filter. Raising by 50 ppm at a time is about the max recomended. Register at click2roark.com to read some of the best info about water chemistry for pond keepers. Roark takes copyright seriously (which is why registration is required). Anyway - he also has some fabulous tools, including a KH calculator. (Pick the units you prefer.)

Carbonate Calculator Results
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compound: Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda)
US Gallons: 2000
Raise KH by PPM (mg/L): 50.0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add the following amounts of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda):
Weight
Pounds: 1.407 lb

Volume
Tablespoons: 39.383 tbsp
Cups: 2.461 cup

**Susan Day** · 08-26-2005

Hi Lynne,
I was adding bit by bit because I wasn't sure how much I could add at one time. It certainly isn't going up at all with what I'm adding. I will go to Roark's site.

Thank you!

**Susan Day** · 08-26-2005

Okay, according to Roark's site I'm in an emergency situation and should add 3 cups baking soda immediately. I will do tomorrow, not tonight, just in case O2 is lower at night; there is some concern with lowered O2 with high doses of baking soda, from what I gather. Also I need to make sure ammonia is zero before I add a big dose.

Thanks Lynne, I will keep adding updates.

**Susan Day** · 08-27-2005

Test results this morning: 0 ammonia, .5 nitrite, kh still 40.
Added 3 cups baking soda + 10 handfuls koi clay
Waited half hour and tested for kh, up to 80.

Going now to get salt to protect against the nitrite, and to get materials for trickle tower.

**Noahsnana** · 08-27-2005

kh is going in the right direction

**Eluned** · 08-27-2005

Sounds like things are going well.

Just a quick note on trickle filters - taller is better and the water needs to be mechanically pre-filtered.

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