• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 40

    Thread: Ammonia Levels in fish ponds and shipping bags

    1. #1
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458

      Ammonia Levels in fish ponds and shipping bags

      Brady brought me 5 new koi from his fish farm near Charlotte, NC, yesterday on my 65th birthday, a little deal Lizzie had arranged.

      When Brady started to dump the shipping bags, I told him to leave them there, I wanted to check the actual ammonia levels in the shipping bags before dumping the water.

      I measured the ammonia level on two independent test kits, specifically the Lamotte fish farm test kit, and the Hanna colorimeter test procedure. Both were off the top of the scale as I expected, the top of each scale is 3 ppm. So I did the chemist 5 to 1 dilution of the sample and retested, the 5 to 1 dilution tested at 2 ppm on both test procedures, meaning the ammonia in the bag was at 10 ppm.

      I tested the pH on a Hanna colorimeter test procedure, the value was 6.7, and that agreed approximately with the Lamotte pH test procedure.

      So the fish were bagged at 7 AM at Brady's farm, taken out of the bag at 2:30 PM at my house, and had an ammonia bath that built to 10 ppm in that shipping procedure. And the pH dropped to 6.7 as the koi exhaled Carbon dioxide to drop the pH in the shipping bag.

      The toxicity literature for fish and ammonia levels for carp, meaning in our instance koi, indicate it takes 4 ppm ammonia levels at a pH of 8 4 days to start killing off the koi. But at a pH of 6.7 in a shipping bag 10 ppm for a half day is no big deal.

      What is the point of the thread? While we don't want to see measurable levels of ammonia in our koi ponds, the fish will live through them if the ammonia levels are not chronically there long term. There is no reason to panic and do huge water changes at ammonia levels in the 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm range. Okay, you may want to think about spending some money on ammonia binders when the ammonia is in the 1 to 5 ppm range during a new filtration system cycle of a new pond or quarantine tank, chemically binding the ammonia makes the water better for the fish.

      In my filtration learning days, when I ran a huge fish load on our indoor koi pond, I measured the ammonia level to be in the 0.2 ppm range for one 15 month period continuously. None of the fish got sick, I did not use an ammonia binder.

      The only point of the thread is to put up REAL data so ponders do not hit the panic button when they measure levels of ammonia in their ponds at the 0.25 ppm level.

      Discussion?
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      savannahrobinson's Avatar
      savannahrobinson is offline Master Photographer of Glare and Bubbles
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      Danbury, TX
      Posts
      10,482
      Happy Birthday Roddy!

      That's good data! But...

      The reason to panic when you have detectable ammonia levels in a pond is that it takes so long to ramp up a filter to deal with it. Its like treating an infection at the first sign of fever... to use a medical analogy. You want to catch it early, because the "cure" can take a long time to implement.
      "To bosom friend, to gracious host
      To those who fall, and those who lift
      To those who give, yet mark not gift
      To healing, hope, and circumstance
      To faith, to fate, to meetings chance"
      -Bob Kublin (who I have not met)

    3. #3
      koi kichi is offline Senior Member
      is FYI dob Jan 24
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      249
      What level do you think they can handle with nitrites when the pond is cycling without causing damage?

    4. #4
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      With salt in the 0.2% to 0.5% range, I have seen populations of koi do fine for months at a time at nitrites that continuously measured over 10 ppm in koi display ponds in local fish stores.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    5. #5
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      Quote Originally Posted by savannahrobinson
      Happy Birthday Roddy!

      That's good data! But...

      The reason to panic when you have detectable ammonia levels in a pond is that it takes so long to ramp up a filter to deal with it. Its like treating an infection at the first sign of fever... to use a medical analogy. You want to catch it early, because the "cure" can take a long time to implement.
      Well, YES, I agree, good point.

      And it did take me a while to learn how to build effective cheap DIY home biofilters to drop the measured ammonia below 0.01 ppm to the non-detectable 0.00 ppm I routinely see on the Hanna colorimeter now.

      So I agree with Savannah, you do need to be learning and installing effective filtration technology as long as the ammonia is easily detectable on a normal test procedure. And, like Savannah says, the filtration cure may take a while to build and implement if the ponder is low on the learning curve.

      So panic to the point of doing some work on the filtration system, or learning how to adjust water parameters to get better biofiltration with the setup you have. But don't spend your time and energy on lots of bucks on ammonia binders and water changes when the ammonia is in the 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm range, instead spend that energy, time, and money on the basic cause of the problem, meaning inadequate biofiltration capacity or efficiency.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    6. #6
      Popfish's Avatar
      Popfish is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, Florida
      Posts
      5,976
      Good thread & discussion Roddy- A very practical approach to the subject!!
      Charter Lifetime Diamond Member #5 of WWKC


      Certified Koi Keeper(CKK)


    7. #7
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Quote Originally Posted by Popfish
      Good thread & discussion Roddy
      OK, Roddy, the temporary high ammonia doesn't kill, but what about long term effects, gill damage, specifically?
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

    8. #8
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I am convinced as others that ammonia is not good for the fish, no argument!

      The point of the discussion is what to do when the ammonia is measurable at what level.

      I see a lot of panic at measured levels of 0.2 ppm to 0.5 ppm with big water exchanges, lots of money spend on ammonia binders, etc. I just think in that range of ammonia the energy is better spent on solving the basic filtration issue rather than activity that does not solve the actual problem.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    9. #9
      koi kichi is offline Senior Member
      is FYI dob Jan 24
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      249
      I need to rephrase my question. Is there an ok level while you are cycling that you don't have to add salt. I have plants but will remove them if even .25 nitrites will hurt my koi.

    10. #10
      stephen's Avatar
      stephen is offline Koiphen Member
      WWKC Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #2
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Location
      Koiphenville
      Posts
      32,139
      Nice thread


      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      Salt has no effect on the toxicity of ammonia, but does reduce the toxicity of nitrites to the koi.

      There is always enough salt in the pond to handle the toxicity of 0.25 ppm nitrite levels, so there is no need to add salt when nitrite is 0.25 ppm.

      If the nitrite is more than 1 ppm for more than a week, remove plants and add salt!
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    12. #12
      koi kichi is offline Senior Member
      is FYI dob Jan 24
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      249
      Thank you very much! I might get this pond right after all.

    13. #13
      jjspond's Avatar
      jjspond is offline Senior Member
      is Retired
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      Tri-Cities, WA. Z. 7a
      Posts
      2,706

      Thumbs up Timely Thread

      I just brought home a panda moor and 2 butterfly koi from the Koi & Goldfish show in Portland. They were bagged from noon to 9pm. I know ammonia goes up and pH goes down, so I do a pH check on my Q-tanks to make sure they're not too overly high to be shocking. So this thread was timely & good news.

      The fish I got were from A's Aquarium (Tommy). ArtL. (Koidoc) gave his approval (which I sweated thru since I'd already put my money down). At first (I think) he was looking thru show quality eyes, but appeared more pleased when he found out it was the genetics I was going for. Now I just have to get her to survive till next summer's breeding time.
      ~ jj
      -----------------------------
      See jj's puddles www.jjspond.us




      K.O.I.

    14. #14
      Dan Cole is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      Location
      Hamilton, ON
      Posts
      113

      Less toxic in low pH?

      I've heard that ammonia was less toxic at pH levels below 7 and I guess what you experienced is a good example of that and probably why the fish survived the trip?

      Dan

    15. #15
      hacnp's Avatar
      hacnp is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      middle of NC
      Posts
      1,438

      Excellent Information

      Many thanks Roddy! We have never had an ammonia reading in the main pond and when 2 large koi we put in a hosital tank were not as bad off as I thought (they spent the first night doin the wild thang) I freaked out because we suddenly had .5 and climbing in 700 Gals. with em still going at it. Got past that and everyone is now back in the main pond with no problems. But knowing this is a lot of help to those of us lacking in hands on exerience. And that little devil of a Male Kohaku is destined for the retirement pond
      Regards, Ken

      The most powerful point of suction in the pond occurs at our checking account. It's all Marges fault!

    16. #16
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cole
      I've heard that ammonia was less toxic at pH levels below 7 and I guess what you experienced is a good example of that and probably why the fish survived the trip?

      Dan
      The usual explanation of how fish survive trips in bags at high ammonia is the pH drop, which makes the ammonia in its less toxic ionized form. And the ammonia is definitely less toxic at lower pH.

      However, it takes a while even at higher pH to do serious damage to the koi at significant ammonia readings.

      I will surf around and see what I can add in the form of charts to the post.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    17. #17
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad
      Salt has no effect on the toxicity of ammonia, but does reduce the toxicity of nitrites to the koi.

      There is always enough salt in the pond to handle the toxicity of 0.25 ppm nitrite levels, so there is no need to add salt when nitrite is 0.25 ppm.
      If the nitrite is more than 1 ppm for more than a week, remove plants and add salt!
      Do you always have salt in the water? and what level do you usually run? Am only at .03 - just a trace. Yes, I have the decimal point right
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

    18. #18
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      Most water sources test to have between 0.02% and 0.07% salt content by the normal test method.

      And that is usually enough salt to prevent nitrite poisoning.

      But when the nitrite goes above 1 ppm for a significant time period, I prefer to bump the salt level up to the 0.1% to 0.2% range.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    19. #19
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      Here is one technical research reference I find when searching for information of the toxicity of ammonia to carp (meaning koi).

      Please notice the 24 hour LC50, meaning the concentration at which half the carp die in 24 hours, is above 100 ppm at the specific test conditions.

      No wonder the koi survive 10 ppm for a half day in a shipping bag!


      Article New SpringerLink BETA Version
      Explore this article today!

      Aquaculture International
      Publisher: Springer Netherlands
      ISSN: 0967-6120 (Paper) 1573-143X (Online)
      DOI: 10.1023/A:1022408529458
      Issue: Volume 10, Number 4

      Date: July 2002
      Pages: 317 - 325
      Histopathological, serum enzyme, cholesterol and urea changes in experimental acute toxicity of ammonia in common carp Cyprinus carpio and use of natural zeolite for prevention
      R. Peyghan1 and G. Azary Takamy2

      (1) Veterinary Medicine Faculty, Shahid Chamran University, Ahvaz, Iran
      (2) Veterinary Medicine faculty, Tehran University, Azadi St, Tehran, Iran


      Abstract Commoncarp, Cyprinus carpio, was exposed to ammonia in a series of acute toxicity tests at 20–22 °C. 24 -hLC50 values were estimated 123 mg/l total ammonia-N (45.5mg/l molecular ammonia-N). In the lethal concentration of ammonia for common carp (150 mg/l total ammonia), the application of 10g/l natural zeolite prevented the fish mortalities. In histopathologic study, the most important lesions that encountered in the gillwere hyperemia, edema and aneurysm. In the kidney, degenerative changes of tubules and glumeruli, expansion of Bowman's capsules, hyperemia, congestion and hemorrhage were the most prominent lesions. There were hyperemia, degeneration and the presence of some necrotic aria as the only lesions observed in the liver. In the serum the level of alkaline phosphatase (ALP) and urea of experimental groups were significantly higher than the control. There was no significant difference in other enzymes and cholesterol level between experimental groups and control fishes.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    20. #20
      Joey S's Avatar
      Joey S is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      21,987
      Roddy appreciate your time to educate us and all your personal observations and experiments. Please don't try to replicate this test data with your pretty babies.
      For the love of Koi
      Don't Sweat the Small Stuff





      Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #4 WWKC

      JOIN THE WorldWide Koi Club NOW



      Certified Koi Keeper (CKK)

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •