Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
A Koi Keeper has asked SAKKS for help. The Koi are in a 75,000 litre pond. There are about 80 of them. Most have skin lesions, similar to that seen in the photos. I have not seen them personally yet but it looks like papilloma to me. Can anything be done for these poor Koi?
Is that caused by damage from the sun?
Inactivated
Hi Dr. Jim, So I understand, are you saying that all or many of the koi show these symptoms? If so, this moves from an individual health issue to a population dynamics and suggests that these are not tumors as one might first suspect if only this one fish were presented.
I did a post on NI in response to Tim ( aussie koi) about lumps on fish. Check it out and see if the protozoan/fungal description is a more appropiate suspect for diagnosis.
Best Regards, JR
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
Good Day Mr Reilley
I have not seen this pond myself. It is in a school grounds and the keeper says he tests the water regularly and thee readings are fine. The SAKKS committee member dealing with this problem is having the water analysed at a laboratory. Unfortunately, the parties concerned will be away on business for a few days. I was told that the keeper was considering euthanasia for the affected Koi and that there were many that were affected. It is difficult to net Koi in this large pond (at least 75,000 litres) and a seine net is being organised. Unfortunately, I am on permanent call for a while and will not be able to get out to the pond myself. I have no details but the committee member I am working through says he felt the filtration system was small for the size of pond. However, it has been carrying this fish load for several years. Yes, I know Koi grow, so we are testing the water.
I have read that a Herpes virus has been isolated from papillomas. Perhaps, it could spread to other Koi especially if they are stressed?
I will look for your post on NI.
Many thanks for your input.
Busy Bee - I do not think this is sunburn. I am told that it is not a particularly shallow pond, where you might expect problems due to the sun.
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
I think it would be useful to determine whether the lesions are solid tumours or cysts. I will ask the committee member concerned to biopsy a lesion. I can then have it prepared and sectioned in my lab (abuse of resources - again!) for microscopic examination.
That will be my suggestion to the parties concerned.
Inactivated
Definitely helpful Jim, a simple biopsy. But I would look for the Dermocyst content. protozoa/ fungi hydra as well. And of course the last possibility is some carcinogen in the water. JR
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
Thank you
I am not a fish pathologist but I am confident I can identify cysts/protozoa/fungi from a papilloma or solid tissue tumour in a section.
Let us hope the parties involved can organise the biopsy.
Inactivated
Knowing your background, I'm sure you can! On a side note, I'm always impressed and fascinated by the number of interesting and talented people the koi hobby attracts. I don't know why exactly, but we are indeed blessed with an abundance of gifted people. I'm confident that you will contribute great things to our hobby Dr Jim. JR
KHA
This does sound like a population issue. Jason raised the issue of hikui on the KoiVet post. I've never seen hikui in person, and know very little about it, but the lesions seem similar. At least in the photos posted, the most severe lesions seem to be confined to patterned areas, though the fins and tail are also affected. Are all the affected koi gosanke, and is there a trend in where the lesions are found?
What causes hikui? Is it a virally induced cancer (like some varieties of human papilloma virus)?
If you can get a biopsy, it would be interesting to see if there is a difference between the tissue on the fins, and that on the patterned areas.
What is the rationale behind euthanizing the affected fish? Do they seem to be sick, or just disfigured? If it is some sort of parasite, all the koi are vulnerable.
Lynne in St. Louis
Not that I even have a clue :o but I found this on a search...
http://www.dcrf.org/fish.htm
Administrator
Interesting post on using peroxide for viral warts in koi.
http://mid-south.net/pipermail/aquap...14/006676.html
Supporting Member
Hikui - Duncan has a really informative article on his site, found here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....ths//Hikui.htm
What the good Doctor has posted is *NOTHING* like hikui, not even close.The fish would be lucky if that's what they had . . . What these fish have is something pretty awful. A biopsy is definitely in order. It does resemble a herpes of a sort (not the KHV type, one of the OTHER types). It looks like it hurts! (and I don't want to get into the "do fish feel pain" BS - it hurts ME to look at it
)
I hope some determination can be made as to what it is: it would be interesting to add to our repetoire (and hope we never see it.)
Lee
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
Thank you everyone for the input.
I am not absolutely sure, as the right people are unavailable, but I believe the suggestion of euthanasia was raised as the Koi keeper thought they might be suffering. If this is the keeper's decision I am sure he will not object to a biopsy. If a biopsy is performed I will post the findings.
Busy Bee
Thank you for the link. Very interesting, fish with Crohn's-like disease, I have learned something new. I believe, however, in this case, the water is supplied by a municipality and the QA is excellent.
Lee B
I agree this does not look like Hikui to me. I have seen nothing like this before. Papillomas are about the nearest I have seen to this.
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
The latest report is that the lesions do feel cystic rather than solid and can bleed when pressed.
It looks like a biopsy can be performed this coming weekend.
Senior Member
Thanks Jim.Originally Posted by Dr J I Phillips
It should be interesting.
Since the whole pond is infected ??? will you be able to check for a transmissable virus ?
PURA VIDA
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Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
Hi Blammo
The plan is to biopsy a lesion or two and prepare the tissue for histologic examination. There could be indicators of a viral infection eg viral inclusion bodies. A small piece of tissue will be held in reserve that could be processed for electron microscopy. If indicated electron microscopy could be performed to look for virus particles. Until we know more about the nature of these lesions I have no plans for culturing microorganisms.
Inactivated
Hi Dr. Phillips,
It appears to me that the largest lesions are in the cells with most color. I can not tell from the pictures if the very dark lesions are the lesions itself or if it is on top of sumi but it looks that way to me and I just thought it was odd. It does appear that there are smaller bumps on the white but the really bad ones appear on the sumi and hi areas----just an observation....
Ruth
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
Interesting observation, Ruth. When I have seen hikui, it has always been on the red.
It looks like I am going to have to see these Koi for myself. I had other plans for my Sunday afternoon. A spring clean of all 3 ponds, netting examining and scraping all my Koi. Our temperatures are warming up and now is the time for vigilance.
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
I went to see the pond myself. It is in a very nice setting in a school with excellent facilities.
Here is the pumphouse.
Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
One of two settlement chambers.
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