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    Thread: Matsunosuke GIN

    1. #1
      Carl's Avatar
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      Matsunosuke GIN

      What is it and how did it develop?
      -- Carl --

      You are cordially invited to apply for membership in the WorldWide Koi Club,
      the parent club of Koiphen.


    2. #2
      dick benbow's Avatar
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      Hi Carl, tough question to answer. Sorry I missed it posted earlier. When the Matsunosuke line started with Toshio's dad, one of the trademarks of the sanke was rows of GR scales. As the line developed, it caused quite a stir in the show circles and would often be submitted in GR by various benchers.
      After much protest a ruiling was made that eliminated this koi from that category. Usually the standard is about two rows of gin up from the lateral line and the GR show ruling is for 3 and more rows.

      What i have found personally while buying tosai of toshio's and growing them up is that with the matsunosuke gin seems to be genetics for a better skin. I found one this spring after sortinmg thru hundreds of his tosai at a local dealer's and purchased it on the spot dispite the poor pattern cause I knew what would happen when it gets large.

      hope some of the ramble is woth while for understanding......

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
      Hi Carl, tough question to answer. Sorry I missed it posted earlier. When the Matsunosuke line started with Toshio's dad, one of the trademarks of the sanke was rows of GR scales. As the line developed, it caused quite a stir in the show circles and would often be submitted in GR by various benchers.
      After much protest a ruiling was made that eliminated this koi from that category. Usually the standard is about two rows of gin up from the lateral line and the GR show ruling is for 3 and more rows.

      What i have found personally while buying tosai of toshio's and growing them up is that with the matsunosuke gin seems to be genetics for a better skin. I found one this spring after sortinmg thru hundreds of his tosai at a local dealer's and purchased it on the spot dispite the poor pattern cause I knew what would happen when it gets large.

      hope some of the ramble is woth while for understanding......

      Thanks, Dick.

      Isn't the "partial" gin distracting? Does this gin remain thru adulthood?
      -- Carl --

      You are cordially invited to apply for membership in the WorldWide Koi Club,
      the parent club of Koiphen.


    4. #4
      Cowiche Ponder's Avatar
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      And Dick where is the picture?? I have no idea what it is you all are talking about and pictures are worth a 1000 words right??

    5. #5
      dick benbow's Avatar
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      I'm sorry mary, I just checked the picture I have of my sanke and it doesn't show in the photo...so hopefull someone who has a pic will post it.

    6. #6
      dick benbow's Avatar
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      I looked at another photo and found i could see some of it. I'm not the sharpest with photos so is there someone I could send the photo to who could get it post and enlatged enough to get a sense, it's not the best to show it off but it will give you an idea what an 8 inch tosai shows and why it's hard to spot at this age.....

    7. #7
      Lee B's Avatar
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      What about the fish that have a single gin scale, usually up around the dorsal ... is that the same thing? I'm sorry; I don't remember the breeder (I'm still at the stage where I buy for the fish, not who bred it). I find it distracting, but was informed that it's this breeder's "signature" and was in fact, a desireable trait.

      This is so? Is it the same thing you're talking about?



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    8. #8
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      Lee, Ive been quite curious about that as well. Ive heard it referred to as fukurin, but that never made sense to me.

    9. #9
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      No, fukurin is when the skin grows up around the scales, like what you see in ogons. It's very striking ... I'm referring to one or two sparkly scales ...



      He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. - Anonymous


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    10. #10
      birdman's Avatar
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      Here's a picture Dick asked me to post.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    11. #11
      dick benbow's Avatar
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      if you look to the left of the circle you can see some gin in the beni. (thanks Steve). Fukerin is actually skin, Gin is a part of the scale. As his cales grow in size the gin will become much more noticeable. Kije i said not the nest pattern in the world but will have the nicest skin when it gets old. I've had the koi for 2 months now and been able to get an inch a month growth on it.
      I cranked the temp up to 77 F today and am feeding saki growth. Will maintain the regiment till late september and begin to drop back. I'm thinking I can get the koi up to 12-13 by then.

    12. #12
      Brady Brandwood's Avatar
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      Here's a pic of Matsunosuke Gin also - in the top right of the pic. This trait and the trait of fukurin travel together. These glittery scales add just a bit of zing to the look of the Koi, without being overbearing or "too much", like true ginrin can be on gosanke.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady Brandwood


    13. #13
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      Here's the same Sanke seen straight on from above. The scales look pretty normal from above, but when the fish turns or is at an angle the scales reflect. It really is a lineage characteristic that causes a lot of confusion in benching, AND in judging, as Dick mentioned. A Koi with these type scales over 30" gets a unanimous "WOW" though.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady


    14. #14
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      Here's another Sanke with Matsunosuke ginrin. This female's mother is from Sakai Yamamatsu, the older of the two Matsunosuke brothers. In this pic (taken when she was 3) we can see the fukurin forming between the scales,... and we can see the glittery rims along the edges of each scale. The two characteristics travel together,... which causes some confusion about what fukurin actually is.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady Brandwood


    15. #15
      Brady Brandwood's Avatar
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      Here's the same Sanke flipped sideways.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady


    16. #16
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      Another 3 year old Sanke of Matsunosuke lineage showing the look of Matsunosuke ginrin scales. This is a sister of the other two Sankes I posted pics of above. The mother of these Koi doesn't have this type of scales. About 30% of the Sanke offspring from her show this characteristic or trait.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady Brandwood


    17. #17
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      It looks just like the quintessential scales you see in the old Japanese wood block prints...

    18. #18
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      Doesnt matsunosuke gin only show up on shiroji? or is this incorrect?

    19. #19
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      Thank you Dick and Brady. I think I have a better understanding now.
      -- Carl --

      You are cordially invited to apply for membership in the WorldWide Koi Club,
      the parent club of Koiphen.


    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lee B View Post
      No, fukurin is when the skin grows up around the scales, like what you see in ogons. It's very striking ... I'm referring to one or two sparkly scales ...
      Lee, I understand. That is why the fukurin explanation never made sense to me, but Ive heard a couple people call it fukurin. I believe it was David Smothers who I asked about this same thing and he told me the breeder had explained it as fukurin.

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