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    Thread: PP question

    1. #1
      Noahsnana's Avatar
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      Question PP question

      Do you always have to use something to stop action?

      How many hours does a dose work?

      Colors= what level of action?
      like...
      Purple what is it doing
      Brown what is it doing?
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
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    2. #2
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      NN, I never stop the PP. It
      only needs to be stopped if
      there's an emergency.
      As far as time, that different with
      each pond. Can be from 10 minutes
      up to a couple of hours. No set time.
      sweetpea's angel
      Diane

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    3. #3
      HanoverKoiFarms's Avatar
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      When it is purple or pink it is doing something, with purple being stonger. When it is brown, yellow, or tea colored it is spent. I usually will deactivate it if the fish have been in pink or purple for 10 hours. I don't like to go past tens hours in those colors. My personal goal is between 6 and ten hours of keeping it purple or pink, and depending on what I am trying to fight or do with it. I will redose it at lower levels if required in the same day, to keep it pink or purple for the desired times. How long it stays pink or purple depends on factors such as organics and or ammonia binders/dechlorinators in the system as well. The hardness will also affect this time.

      Go to Roarks site; www.click2roark.com he has a good write up on it there.



      All that I say here is based solely on my opinion, and many years in aquaculture. Do with it what you will.
      John Fornaro
      Hanover Koi Farms

    4. #4
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Oh Bull

      PP is "reactive" (to one extent or another) until spent. Its not spent until there is no color of any kind...brown, Tea or otherwise! Let the reaction finish, totally and as stated above, do not reverse unless there is an emergency. By redosing to achieve the desired "reaction time", you are actually increasing the dosage.

      I would challenge anyone to tell me at what point there is absolutely no hint of purple in brown water during a PP treatment. Using a simple Orp meter you can see that the ORP will increase beyond that of its initial reading for the initial dosing when redosed at the same measurement.

      Steve

    5. #5
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Like others say, if there is pink or purple color, the PP is still active, and if there is no trace of pink of a sample taken in a white 5 gallon bucket, you know it is gone.

      Also, in general, an ORP reading above 400 indicates residual active PP.

      As a sideline to this discussion, a test for chlorine after a PP dose shows active chlorine when there is none, since the chlorine test simply indicates whether an active oxidizer is present or not. Also, for about 12 hours after the PP is spent or reversed, the chlorine test will give a positive reading even though the PP is completely spent or reversed. The point is a chlorine test is meaningless for at least 12 hours and perhaps 24 hours after a pond has been dosed with PP.
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      PP is "reactive" (to one extent or another) until spent. Its not spent until there is no color of any kind...brown, Tea or otherwise! Let the reaction finish, totally and as stated above, do not reverse unless there is an emergency. By redosing to achieve the desired "reaction time", you are actually increasing the dosage.

      I would challenge anyone to tell me at what point there is absolutely no hint of purple in brown water during a PP treatment. Using a simple Orp meter you can see that the ORP will increase beyond that of its initial reading for the initial dosing when redosed at the same measurement.

      Steve
      Explain "to one extent to another". The brown/tea coloring quite often is caused by the oxidation of the organics and not always that the PP is not spent. That brown or tea coloration will not do much to kill pathogens in most cases, this however is totally dependent on the pathogens involved, and many other factors.Besides and orp meter you can also determine the viability of PP using peroxide. Take two equal cups of the colored water, and add one drop of peroxide to one of the cups...how much the color changes in that cup as compared to the cup without it will give you a hint as to how spent the PP actually is as well.



      All that I say here is based solely on my opinion, and many years in aquaculture. Do with it what you will.
      John Fornaro
      Hanover Koi Farms

    7. #7
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      "Most" of the brown color after PP treatment is an unstable form of PP that usually disappears overnight, or immediately if the peroxide is added. I looked up that chemistry once to understand the process. The wierd thing is that it shows as active chlorine in a chlorine test, even though it is a spent form of PP. Sodium thiosulfate does not get rid of it, but sodium thiosulfate deactivates the active real pink or purple potassium permanganate. Even though the brown unstable spent brown form of PP shows as active chlorine on a chlorine test, it does the fish no harm, and does not require reversal with hydrogen peroxide.

      I realize this is pretty useless information for the average hobbyist, but may be an interesting sideline comment for John and Steve, since they are "into details".
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

    8. #8
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Missing the point?

      Redosing when not TOTALLY spent equals a higher reactivity level. My point was exactly as you stated John:

      The brown/tea coloring quite often is caused by the oxidation of the organics and not always that the PP is not spent.
      You are also correct that the reactivity level may be such at that point as to not be effective against pathogens...no issue. The issue is that redosing results in a higher ppm level of PP since some reactivity is still remain. To what extent is unknown at that point in time. Dealing with "unknowns" can be dangerous. Let the PP run its TOTAL coarse, then redose. I suggest on alternating days in fact. Typically this isn't even needed if the pond is maintained in a clean and healthy manner to begin with.

      Steve

    9. #9
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      I am a fly on the wall...very interesting conversation
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
      I believe it can happen... Koi World Peace
      "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad
      "Most" of the brown color after PP treatment is an unstable form of PP that usually disappears overnight, or immediately if the peroxide is added. I looked up that chemistry once to understand the process. The wierd thing is that it shows as active chlorine in a chlorine test, even though it is a spent form of PP. Sodium thiosulfate does not get rid of it, but sodium thiosulfate deactivates the active real pink or purple potassium permanganate. Even though the brown unstable spent brown form of PP shows as active chlorine on a chlorine test, it does the fish no harm, and does not require reversal with hydrogen peroxide.

      I realize this is pretty useless information for the average hobbyist, but may be an interesting sideline comment for John and Steve, since they are "into details".
      I see you followed up on my pp/chlorine test Roddy.

    11. #11
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stephen
      I see you followed up on my pp/chlorine test Roddy.
      Precisely. I got the same result you did. It is a bit wierd, and the explanation above is only a partial explanation, even though it IS correct as far as I explained it. Also, as you said a few months ago, when the brown spent form of PP (or spent forms of ozone) are present, we get a positive test for chlorine as well as active chlorine, even though there is no active ozone, no active PP, and no active chlorine. There IS one or more unstable compounds that disappear in a day or so, which show up in either the active chlorine or total chlorine test procedures. But the unstable compound or compounds are not harmful to the fish.
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

    12. #12
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      Redosing when not TOTALLY spent equals a higher reactivity level. My point was exactly as you stated John:



      You are also correct that the reactivity level may be such at that point as to not be effective against pathogens...no issue. The issue is that redosing results in a higher ppm level of PP since some reactivity is still remain. To what extent is unknown at that point in time. Dealing with "unknowns" can be dangerous. Let the PP run its TOTAL coarse, then redose. I suggest on alternating days in fact. Typically this isn't even needed if the pond is maintained in a clean and healthy manner to begin with.

      Steve
      I have redosed at 2 ppm dose level as many as 20 times in a single day IN A REALLY DIRTY POND while following the active level with a calibrated ORP meter. However, if you are depending on color alone to make the redose decision, and are not really well versed and experienced in PP treatments, then the advice you give is well taken for a newbie.
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

    13. #13
      Noahsnana's Avatar
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      Just for the sake of it for others learning what are the ORP levels at desired pre during and post treatment.
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
      I believe it can happen... Koi World Peace
      "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

    14. #14
      HanoverKoiFarms's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      Redosing when not TOTALLY spent equals a higher reactivity level. My point was exactly as you stated John:



      You are also correct that the reactivity level may be such at that point as to not be effective against pathogens...no issue. The issue is that redosing results in a higher ppm level of PP since some reactivity is still remain. To what extent is unknown at that point in time. Dealing with "unknowns" can be dangerous. Let the PP run its TOTAL coarse, then redose. I suggest on alternating days in fact. Typically this isn't even needed if the pond is maintained in a clean and healthy manner to begin with.

      Steve
      Man, this is getting scary...I think we almost agree on something. Let me explain further.

      How I do PP treatments is totally dependent on the pathogen I am dealing with, and the severity of infestation. Costia for example, is one that require a close eye, and a judgement call as for how often and whether I redose or not. I can say that in most cases I like to maintain pink or purple for 10 hours with this bug, and especially in cases where the fish are heavily slimed. I personally try to get rid of some of that slime with the initial dose so that the PP can get to the bugs. Heavy slime will inhibit all treatments from getting to the bugs. Sometimes this can be accomplished with multiple and consecutive doses, and sometimes you can choose a heavier dose to get faster results. This is not something for someone to attempt that has little experience with PP. I very seldom even suggest a novice use PP.

      Because of how Costia reproduce so quickly, there are times that we need an aggressive approach to stop them. There are many ways to utilize PP in treating fish, but I would highly suggest you start slow and low. It is always best to be conservative when it comes to this comp[ound, but you must also be aware that Costia can overcome and kill fish rapidly, and we may be forced to be aggressive. As I have said, Roarck has some very good and detailed articles on its use, and in general, you can see the many ways of utilizing it there.
      So, in general Steve, I agree with what you say, I am just saying as well, that there are times that we need to give them a quick one two punch. This is however DANGEROUS for sure.



      All that I say here is based solely on my opinion, and many years in aquaculture. Do with it what you will.
      John Fornaro
      Hanover Koi Farms

    15. #15
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      Oh, I forgot to mention that at the times I do redose in the same day, it is a lower dosage than the initial one for sure. I agree as well, that you are adding to the PPM if the color is still there. Read Roarks stuff, and I pretty much agree with his thinking on its use.



      All that I say here is based solely on my opinion, and many years in aquaculture. Do with it what you will.
      John Fornaro
      Hanover Koi Farms

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      Related thread when I treated for costia https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...1&page=1&pp=10

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      Talk ORP Stephen
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
      I believe it can happen... Koi World Peace
      "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

    18. #18
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      ORP measurement can be a useful tool for lots of purposes, but deciding whether you are at 1 ppm, 2 ppm, 3 ppm, 4 ppm, 5 ppm, or higher level PP dose is not one of ORP measurements best purposes.

      The problem is that the ORP response gets flat with more PP at higher dose levels, plus the pH value has a huge effect on the response of ORP readings to PP dose levels. Some work I did in my basement at Camp Conrad given in the chart below gives examples of these issues.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

    19. #19
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      Hmmmmm

      I think ya'll are coming around?

      I get real concerned when I see certain types of statements, and yes, take them to task since many reading these threads only pick up on parts of things. In about 6 months time, we will see someone say that "Roddey dosed his pond 20 times in 1 day at 2 ppm PP."

      I kinda doubt that Roddy did that but more than likely started at 2 ppm and redosed to maintain a stable Orp reading. Even if he stayed up for 24 hours straight making the purple Kool Aid, that's almost once an hour and the dosing would surely have gone above 2 ppm. In short, dosing 20 times to maintain 2 ppm is different than dosing 20 times at 2 ppm!

      Steve

    20. #20
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      I think ya'll are coming around?

      I get real concerned when I see certain types of statements, and yes, take them to task since many reading these threads only pick up on parts of things. In about 6 months time, we will see someone say that "Roddey dosed his pond 20 times in 1 day at 2 ppm PP."

      I kinda doubt that Roddy did that but more than likely started at 2 ppm and redosed to maintain a stable Orp reading. Even if he stayed up for 24 hours straight making the purple Kool Aid, that's almost once an hour and the dosing would surely have gone above 2 ppm. In short, dosing 20 times to maintain 2 ppm is different than dosing 20 times at 2 ppm!

      Steve
      Okay, let's be very specific. It was a 1000 gallon water garden pond full of potted lilies and Sarassa comets. Over the winter, plant decay and stuff had accumlated on the bottom of the pond. I was afraid to "muck it out" of the junk because I was afraid I would stir up too much hydrogen sulfide and kill the Sarassa comets. I didn't even want to remove the Sarassa comets for fear of stirring up hydrogen sulfide by the act of trying to net the large stocking of adult Sarassa comets.

      So I decided to get rid of any hydrogen sulfide by oxidizing it with PP before doing routine spring pond maintenance. I checked calibration of an ORP meter that I could plug in and read continuously. I put a set of air stones on a large air pump, turned off the biofilter system, and started "boiling up" the pond while watching the ORP meter and dosing it with PP. I would add a full 2 ppm dose, watch the ORP reading immmediately increase, then watch the ORP reading drop as the muck and potted plants consumed the PP dose. And, YES, I added 20 consecutive full 2 ppm PP doses in about 4 hours of dosing it while I was doing other pond maintenance activity while the PP cleanup of that pond continued. The next PP dose was not added until the ORP reading dropped below 450, and the purple/pink coloration had dropped to non visual levels.

      The fish did great through it.

      The next day I did the exact same thing in the pond immediately adjacent, namely another 1000 gallon water garden, full of lotus and golden orfes. Worked swell for it, too.

      Since then, I don't let the hydrogen sulfide get to problem levels, and instead of that rather wild PP cleanup technique, simply remove all the potted plants, then start pumping out all the water removing all the fish to portable tanks sitting beside the pond. That is a bit faster than taking the time to add all that PP.

      But for ponds with a noticeable hydrogen sulfide odor, what I did those two days are the safest way to clean up the pond without killing the fish.

      The PP kills the hydrogen sulfide.
      Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great! Finished a Masterís degree in Environmental Science Dec 14, 2020, to round out my PhD in chemistry in 1967.

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