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    Thread: Quarantine Protocols

    1. #21
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
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      4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones, plus generic shotgun parasite treatment.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones, plus generic shotgun parasite treatment.
      Hey Roddy! How about being a little more specific? I bet you might even have a picture or two.

      I agree that a longer quarantine is good, but the old ways are hard to change when it is printed on website after website. The four to six week quarantine time is the norm.

      I like about two months personally. What's important is to have that quarantine tank cycled so water quality never becomes an issue. Then simply keep them about 72 to 75*F, treat for the usual suspects and wait it out.
      Karl Schoeler, founder: EIHIOICGI

      Certified: AKCA Better Health Practices December 2008


    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones
      4 months? What are you waiting on to happen? Would there be a difference in time to QT between the fish being imports or domestic? Inquiring minds want to know.
      Steve


    4. #24
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      The koi must be kept in quarantine in the SVC kill zone of 41 degrees F to 64 degrees F for a month to make sure the new koi do not have SVC. Then another month of the quarantine has to be in the KHV kill zone of 65 degrees F to 80 degrees F to make sure the new koi do not have KHV. Add one month either side to get those temperatures in the quarantine tank without having to heat or cool the water, and to do shotgun parasite treatment, and you get my 4 month minimum quarantine to keep my main herd safe from those new arrivals.

      My strategy for buying new koi is to either buy them late Fall or early Spring, then carry them through the 41F to 64F range for a month in early spring, carry them through the 65F to 80F range in late spring, and shotgun parasite them as soon as the water temperature hits 70F when I can get a good parasite life cycle kill.

      If I make the almost fatal generic error of buying fish mid to late summer, they stay in quarantine through the entire winter season to hit the spring preferable quarantine regime. The problem with buying koi mid to late summer is that if you keep them in quarantine at temperatures in the 80's, you don't know if the koi do or don't have KHV and/or SVC. So a quarantine that does not have several weeks in the 65F to 80F temperature range, and several weeks in the 41F to 64F range, will not adequately protect your koi collection from fatal viral exposure from new arrivals.

      The generic shotgun treatment, copied and pasted from my article in KOI USA recently, is given below:

      Parasite Control

      After water quality problems, parasite control is the next most frequent cause of koi health problems. The usual signs of parasite infestations “out of control” is fish lethargic at the surface of the water, ulcerations, fish deaths, “spider veins” on the underneath side of the koi, and “head down” behaviors.

      There are many “wet labs” at koi shows and seminars to teach specifics of koi parasite identification and control. The best of these is the weekend wet lab connected to the KHA or Koi Health Advisor course. I have been through three of these wet labs myself, including the KHA weekend, and recommend them to koi ponders serious about their hobby.

      These wet labs teach how to take koi skin scrapes and gill snips to identify the parasites by microscope examination. Since parasites frequently become a significant problem on some koi but not others in the same pond, this method of parasite treatment requires examination by microscope a significant percentage of the koi in the pond to be sure of the best parasite treatment strategy.

      For those who are not yet knowledgeable or trained in microscope examination to identify koi parasites, treating the entire pond with a “shotgun” parasite treatment may be useful when parasites are suspected causes of apparent koi health problems. There are two usual approaches to “shotgun” parasite treatments. The least expensive is the combination of potassium permanganate and salt treatment, which I used myself for many years successfully. This approach is to treat the pond with 0.3 to 0.6% salt and 2 to 4 ppm potassium permanganate treatments every 5 days for a total of 5 such treatments at water temperatures in the 65F to 85F range. However, after practicing that strategy for several years, my own experience is that the “shotgun” treatments used by fish farmers and professional koi dealers are superior to the potassium permanganate shotgun protocol, because the alternate (but more expensive) technology is more effective and safer to the fish. The purpose of this koi pond maintenance section is to give adequate detail of this shotgun treatment to practice it. The problem with the cheaper PP and salt treatment is that in many cases that combination does not adequately control costia, gill flukes, anchorworm, and fish lice.

      Before starting a shotgun parasite treatment, four conditions should be met to insure the treatment kills parasites but not fish. The first condition is the pond volume must be known to at least 30% accuracy. Without knowing the pond volume, the dose of the chemicals may not be accurate enough for purpose of safe parasite control.

      The second condition is the pond water temperature must be in the 65F to 85F range. If the temperature is below 65F, the life cycle of several parasites such as “Ich”, costia, and gill fluke is too long to ever hope for the treatment to gain control of the parasites. If the temperature is above 85F, chemical treatments which reduce oxygen solubility may put the fish at risk of inadequate oxygen content. Strong aeration of the pond water can extend the treatment temperature range to 90-95F, but watch for signs of inadequate oxygen such as fish hanging at the surface.

      The third condition is the pond must be reasonably clean. One of the best treatment chemicals in the shotgun treatment, Proform C or Formalin, has a very short lifetime in dirty pond water and will not last long enough in dirty water to kill parasites. If there is any question about the pond water being good enough for an effective shotgun parasite treatment, the pond can be safely cleaned by treating the pond with 0.5 ppm potassium permanganate treatments until the purple/pink color lasts more than 15 minutes. If this potassium permanganate dose lasts longer than 15 minutes, the Dissolved Organic Carbon level in the pond is low enough for the Proform C or Formalin to kill the parasites. All dechlorinators and ammonia binders react with potassium permanganate, so if a dechlorinator or ammonia binder has been added, the potassium permanganate must first destroy these chemicals before it can clean up the pond water by oxidizing the Dissolved Organic Carbon.

      The fourth condition is to have a low salt level since some ponders have observed negative reactions of the combination of either Proform C or Formalin when combined with salt. Salt and Formalin or Proform C both decrease oxygen solubility in the water, so the salt and Formalin combination should be specifically avoided at high water temperatures when the solubility of oxygen in the water is lower.

      Okay, now the pond temperature is in the 65F to 85F range, the pond volume is known to at least 30% accuracy, the pond water is adequately clean for the chemicals to have an adequate lifetime, salt is less than 0.15%, so you are ready for a shotgun parasite treatment. During parasite treatment do not use either calcium bentonite clay or activated carbon, since either of these will absorb the chemicals and the parasites will not be killed. Keep the filtration system in service during the treatment, since parasites can be kept alive if the filter system is taken off line.

      1. Dose 4 times with the dose spaced every 3 days at a dose of 100 ml per 1000 gallons with either Proform C or Argent Chemicals 37% Formalin – kills costia and most other parasites, dose schedule is to kill parasite life cycle. This is different than the bottle label instructions for Proform C which says to treat every 24 hours for three days. The change from the bottle label instructions is to have a better chance of killing the life cycle of “Ich”, costia, and gill flukes since the life cycle is unlikely to be complete in 3 days. Note: Formalin or Proform C read as ammonia on many ammonia test kit procedures, so testing for ammonia is not technically possible during Proform C or Formalin parasites treatments, nor for two days following the treatment.
      2. If the pond is only koi, treat twice, a week apart, with standard bottle label Supaverm dose. Remember anytime Supaverm is used, the bottle must be strongly agitated before dosing, since Supaverm is a suspension rather than a solution, and agitation of the bottle is required to insure the Supaverm is the right strength. If goldfish are present, use two doses of Praziquantel a week apart, since Supaverm kills goldfish. This step is for gill fluke control since their life cycle is not predictable. Note: Praziquantal can be combined with the first and last Proform C or Formalin treatments to shorten the total shotgun treatment protocol, but Supaverm must be used separately.
      3. Treat with 1 gram 25% Dimilin powder per 1000 gallons twice, a week apart, for anchorworn and fish lice control, separate from the above treatments. Dimilin is to kill anchorworm and fish lice, which are not controlled by the other treatments. Note: For ponders without access to Dimilin 25% powder, a liquid form of Dimilin is also available and sold for pond use.

      Postscript: I have never bought a koi with KHV or SVC. But I have bought koi loaded with some really hard to kill parasites. Even the parasite infestation can wipe out an entire koi pond of a person who has not been through the worst of the Japanese strains of costia or the worst of the gill flukes. Nasty stuff, I lost a bunch of koi in quarantine in two shipments while I learned my shotgun parasite lessons from the professionals who helped me out by teaching me how to get control on message board discussions.
      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

    5. #25
      Carl's Avatar
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      Are you scraping, scoping and treating, or shotgunning your qt fish? If not, why not?

      Standard shotgun treatment is Proform C for three days, with the last treatment combined with Prazi. Water changes before each Proform C treatment, no water change for a week after the Prazi.
      -- Carl --

      You are cordially invited to apply for membership in the WorldWide Koi Club,
      the parent club of Koiphen.


    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by cppond View Post
      Are you scraping, scoping and treating, or shotgunning your qt fish? If not, why not?

      Standard shotgun treatment is Proform C for three days, with the last treatment combined with Prazi. Water changes before each Proform C treatment, no water change for a week after the Prazi.
      That's what I do. I then sedate, scrape and scope at the end of the week after prazi. I've never seen anything moving on scope after this treatment, but I've only been at it 3 years or so...and all fish were asymptomatic upon purchase. All new fish quarantined the same way & get the same treatment.
      Paula



      WWKC Lifetime Member # 13


    7. #27
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      Hmmmmm. Roddy has some good points on modding the Proform-C treatment schedule to account for parasite life cycles. I have used Carl's standard treatment protocol, but had not considered the longer life cycles of some parasites and the extended stages when they are not vulnerable to the treatment. I have 5 koi in QT now that I have already treated with dimilin as these fish are fresh out of the mud. How long should I wait to begin one of the Proform treatment methods either 3 day or extended? Any comments on the extended treatment?

      Steve
      An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out.
      Will Rogers


    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by kitfoxdrvr View Post
      Hmmmmm. Roddy has some good points on modding the Proform-C treatment schedule to account for parasite life cycles. I have used Carl's standard treatment protocol, but had not considered the longer life cycles of some parasites and the extended stages when they are not vulnerable to the treatment. I have 5 koi in QT now that I have already treated with dimilin as these fish are fresh out of the mud. How long should I wait to begin one of the Proform treatment methods either 3 day or extended? Any comments on the extended treatment?

      Steve
      Life cycle can be temperature dependent.

      Some parasites can resist treatment during certain parts of their life cycle. If you can scrape and scope it is helpful to do so after the treatment to see if there are any stragglers.
      -- Carl --

      You are cordially invited to apply for membership in the WorldWide Koi Club,
      the parent club of Koiphen.


    9. #29
      Hugh Albrecht is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      The koi must be kept in quarantine in the SVC kill zone of 41 degrees F to 64 degrees F for a month to make sure the new koi do not have SVC. Then another month of the quarantine has to be in the KHV kill zone of 65 degrees F to 80 degrees F to make sure the new koi do not have KHV. Add one month either side to get those temperatures in the quarantine tank without having to heat or cool the water, and to do shotgun parasite treatment, and you get my 4 month minimum quarantine to keep my main herd safe from those new arrivals.

      My strategy for buying new koi is to either buy them late Fall or early Spring, then carry them through the 41F to 64F range for a month in early spring, carry them through the 65F to 80F range in late spring, and shotgun parasite them as soon as the water temperature hits 70F when I can get a good parasite life cycle kill.

      If I make the almost fatal generic error of buying fish mid to late summer, they stay in quarantine through the entire winter season to hit the spring preferable quarantine regime. The problem with buying koi mid to late summer is that if you keep them in quarantine at temperatures in the 80's, you don't know if the koi do or don't have KHV and/or SVC. So a quarantine that does not have several weeks in the 65F to 80F temperature range, and several weeks in the 41F to 64F range, will not adequately protect your koi collection from fatal viral exposure from new arrivals.

      The generic shotgun treatment, copied and pasted from my article in KOI USA recently, is given below:

      Parasite Control

      After water quality problems, parasite control is the next most frequent cause of koi health problems. The usual signs of parasite infestations “out of control” is fish lethargic at the surface of the water, ulcerations, fish deaths, “spider veins” on the underneath side of the koi, and “head down” behaviors.

      There are many “wet labs” at koi shows and seminars to teach specifics of koi parasite identification and control. The best of these is the weekend wet lab connected to the KHA or Koi Health Advisor course. I have been through three of these wet labs myself, including the KHA weekend, and recommend them to koi ponders serious about their hobby.

      These wet labs teach how to take koi skin scrapes and gill snips to identify the parasites by microscope examination. Since parasites frequently become a significant problem on some koi but not others in the same pond, this method of parasite treatment requires examination by microscope a significant percentage of the koi in the pond to be sure of the best parasite treatment strategy.

      For those who are not yet knowledgeable or trained in microscope examination to identify koi parasites, treating the entire pond with a “shotgun” parasite treatment may be useful when parasites are suspected causes of apparent koi health problems. There are two usual approaches to “shotgun” parasite treatments. The least expensive is the combination of potassium permanganate and salt treatment, which I used myself for many years successfully. This approach is to treat the pond with 0.3 to 0.6% salt and 2 to 4 ppm potassium permanganate treatments every 5 days for a total of 5 such treatments at water temperatures in the 65F to 85F range. However, after practicing that strategy for several years, my own experience is that the “shotgun” treatments used by fish farmers and professional koi dealers are superior to the potassium permanganate shotgun protocol, because the alternate (but more expensive) technology is more effective and safer to the fish. The purpose of this koi pond maintenance section is to give adequate detail of this shotgun treatment to practice it. The problem with the cheaper PP and salt treatment is that in many cases that combination does not adequately control costia, gill flukes, anchorworm, and fish lice.

      Before starting a shotgun parasite treatment, four conditions should be met to insure the treatment kills parasites but not fish. The first condition is the pond volume must be known to at least 30% accuracy. Without knowing the pond volume, the dose of the chemicals may not be accurate enough for purpose of safe parasite control.

      The second condition is the pond water temperature must be in the 65F to 85F range. If the temperature is below 65F, the life cycle of several parasites such as “Ich”, costia, and gill fluke is too long to ever hope for the treatment to gain control of the parasites. If the temperature is above 85F, chemical treatments which reduce oxygen solubility may put the fish at risk of inadequate oxygen content. Strong aeration of the pond water can extend the treatment temperature range to 90-95F, but watch for signs of inadequate oxygen such as fish hanging at the surface.

      The third condition is the pond must be reasonably clean. One of the best treatment chemicals in the shotgun treatment, Proform C or Formalin, has a very short lifetime in dirty pond water and will not last long enough in dirty water to kill parasites. If there is any question about the pond water being good enough for an effective shotgun parasite treatment, the pond can be safely cleaned by treating the pond with 0.5 ppm potassium permanganate treatments until the purple/pink color lasts more than 15 minutes. If this potassium permanganate dose lasts longer than 15 minutes, the Dissolved Organic Carbon level in the pond is low enough for the Proform C or Formalin to kill the parasites. All dechlorinators and ammonia binders react with potassium permanganate, so if a dechlorinator or ammonia binder has been added, the potassium permanganate must first destroy these chemicals before it can clean up the pond water by oxidizing the Dissolved Organic Carbon.

      The fourth condition is to have a low salt level since some ponders have observed negative reactions of the combination of either Proform C or Formalin when combined with salt. Salt and Formalin or Proform C both decrease oxygen solubility in the water, so the salt and Formalin combination should be specifically avoided at high water temperatures when the solubility of oxygen in the water is lower.

      Okay, now the pond temperature is in the 65F to 85F range, the pond volume is known to at least 30% accuracy, the pond water is adequately clean for the chemicals to have an adequate lifetime, salt is less than 0.15%, so you are ready for a shotgun parasite treatment. During parasite treatment do not use either calcium bentonite clay or activated carbon, since either of these will absorb the chemicals and the parasites will not be killed. Keep the filtration system in service during the treatment, since parasites can be kept alive if the filter system is taken off line.

      1. Dose 4 times with the dose spaced every 3 days at a dose of 100 ml per 1000 gallons with either Proform C or Argent Chemicals 37% Formalin – kills costia and most other parasites, dose schedule is to kill parasite life cycle. This is different than the bottle label instructions for Proform C which says to treat every 24 hours for three days. The change from the bottle label instructions is to have a better chance of killing the life cycle of “Ich”, costia, and gill flukes since the life cycle is unlikely to be complete in 3 days. Note: Formalin or Proform C read as ammonia on many ammonia test kit procedures, so testing for ammonia is not technically possible during Proform C or Formalin parasites treatments, nor for two days following the treatment.
      2. If the pond is only koi, treat twice, a week apart, with standard bottle label Supaverm dose. Remember anytime Supaverm is used, the bottle must be strongly agitated before dosing, since Supaverm is a suspension rather than a solution, and agitation of the bottle is required to insure the Supaverm is the right strength. If goldfish are present, use two doses of Praziquantel a week apart, since Supaverm kills goldfish. This step is for gill fluke control since their life cycle is not predictable. Note: Praziquantal can be combined with the first and last Proform C or Formalin treatments to shorten the total shotgun treatment protocol, but Supaverm must be used separately.
      3. Treat with 1 gram 25% Dimilin powder per 1000 gallons twice, a week apart, for anchorworn and fish lice control, separate from the above treatments. Dimilin is to kill anchorworm and fish lice, which are not controlled by the other treatments. Note: For ponders without access to Dimilin 25% powder, a liquid form of Dimilin is also available and sold for pond use.

      Postscript: I have never bought a koi with KHV or SVC. But I have bought koi loaded with some really hard to kill parasites. Even the parasite infestation can wipe out an entire koi pond of a person who has not been through the worst of the Japanese strains of costia or the worst of the gill flukes. Nasty stuff, I lost a bunch of koi in quarantine in two shipments while I learned my shotgun parasite lessons from the professionals who helped me out by teaching me how to get control on message board discussions.
      Roddy,

      I your generic treatment with Proform C are you doing water changes before each dose.

    10. #30
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      For everyone: I would like to hear more about your personal heat-cycling protocol.

    11. #31
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      I used to only qt for a month, then I found out that was bad and learned a lot, thanks to KOIPHEN!

      Now I have a new plan....
      Firstly do a scrape & scope as soon as the koi arrives and treat for any nasties it has and get it settled in. QT indoors for 6 to 8 months, depending on the time of year the koi is aquired at. This part is a bit iffy: Either the first three months or the last three months I'll heat to 70F and 75F for about a month so I can see any KHV.

    12. #32
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      QT for 6 weeks, during which I start with the 3 day Proform-C, then Prazi on the last day... Water changes per instructions on Proform-C.
      Then raise Salt over a 24 hour time to 3% for a week
      Water changes as needed to lower Salt over the remaining time.
      Now I will be adding the 70 - 75 temp range for the remaining time...
      Scrape for Microscope prior to releasing...
      Bill Putnam

    13. #33
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      Our MG&F Protocol for Ich at 18C Comprises 4 clear days between Treatments for 3 Doses and includes a 15% water change the day before each application

    14. #34
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      Hi All,

      I am about to purchase more koi for my small pond. As I am a brand new beginner, I've just been buying inexpensive ones from a pet store.

      What are the basics I need (pump, heater, etc.) for a quarantine tank? Can I keep them in a plastic tub with aeration?

      Obviously, I don't want to spend a ton of money, since I am only purchasing inexpensive fish. Thanks!

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by ponderingkoi View Post
      That's what I do. I then sedate, scrape and scope at the end of the week after prazi. I've never seen anything moving on scope after this treatment, but I've only been at it 3 years or so...and all fish were asymptomatic upon purchase. All new fish quarantined the same way & get the same treatment.

      never sedate and scrape if you do youll see a reduction in any parasites that may have been there
      5500 uk gallon pond
      filtered by a double sieve bead combo
      all running over a shower

      waters not wet untill you touch it : steve fowler

      your not paranoid
      they are watching you steve fowler

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