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  • Page 3 of 24 FirstFirst 12345613 ... LastLast
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    Thread: opinion on bakki showers posted on NI

    1. #41
      tewa is offline Senior Member
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      hey stephen/JR

      I am not here hiding the fact that I am the momotaro agent of australia, but as you all well know that australia doesnn import koi and the koi industry is small. I still have my day job as i will never see being a momotaro agent here in Australia ever capable of earning me a living :crybaby:, I wish it did. Whether I sell a little more bacteria house or a lot more bacteria house makes not much difference to me I just love the hobby. I am only 25 and not at a retiring age and depend my pension on this business. I don't normally post on this board but since you didn't post on koi bito I had to post here, can't seem to get an account on NI to post there.

      JR no I don't have the report to be quite honest, never asked for one. Mike may have one, I have a feeling it wasnt done in english but I guarantee that there is one, does that help ? Do you know someone that can read fluent scientific japanese terms for you JR.

      JR you keep asking for science of what it does, and I keep asking for science of your scepticsm and whether you can prove it . I haven got a english report but at least there is one, can you bring up one report that says it doesn't emit FIR? The other member posted that you could bring BH to a geology department and get them to test the FIR emission and water conductivity. And he reckons to do a proper test to find what FIR would do with these filters and long term fish growth would cost millions, I can't comment on that but I look forward to whatever you are trying to test.

      So what is this test method of yours JR, I know you wouldn try to setup some stupid experiment to try and prove BH doesn't work. I think everyone is very interested. Are you going to stick to what maurice recommend or what momotaro recommends? I think to be fair you should really follow the flow rates that momotaro recommends go for three times turnover an hour pull from bottom drain and skimmer and do normal water changes that is realistic for the given load. I know you are the guru and there is no need for me to tell you how to test it, but I and every bakki supporter would like to see you do it the way its recommended. How long will you run the test for at least a year I hope cause ultimately you want to see the result in the fish. What are the parameters you are trying to monitor, it wouldn be fun for the rest of us if you just kept it secret

      I read in NI (I still cant post there) you keep going on and on about the tap being beside the pond, and I can't understand the point you are chasing after . Are you still on about the must have golden rule of ten percent water add in (I thought we all talked about it already, at least on Koi Bito) or were you just trying to let the rest of the folks know its convenient to have a tap near the pond.

      I am glad to see that whatever has been posted by UK and asia posters has nothing new for you JR though its interesting :heyhey: , it goes to show that it does what it says from day one, don't you think ?

      And in regards to your continuos post of that lovely picture of the longest running bakki shower and bacteria house at momotaro, its really a nice picture I don't see whats wrong with it.

      best regards
      tewa

    2. #42
      ShiroMujiGirl is offline Senior Member
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      Three times an hour turnover rate? Maybe is a holding tank but in most places in the USA with descent sized multithousand gallon koi ponds that is not going to happen because of the price of electricity. I would have to turn 36,000 gallons an hour on a 12,000 gallon system. I won't do it and its not neccessary. Once an hour does it.

      Tewa- Roark, Savannah and I tested BH for FIR. There isn't any. It does alter the taste of alcohol esters but when wrapped in plastic, no change. Rays would go through plastic. Boy, that was a fun experiment. Anyone can do it. Try it yourselves.

      JR, isn't backyard science fun?

    3. #43
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      Charge on, just trying to keep up.
      FIR far-infrared waves
      BH Bakki house or bacteria house or Biohome
      BHM bacteria house medium or media
      BS Bakki shower
      TT trickle tower
      BM bio media
      BB bio balls
      TBT trickle bio-tower
      BSF bio-sand filter
      BF bio filtration
      SMG simulated microgravity or Shiro Muji Girl
      BT Bakki trickle

      Kaldnes- plastic cylinder about 1/2 inch long, 3/8 in. dia. center cross
      Geolite Balls- baked clay our silica, kiln fired, excellent aeration
      Bio-tube aquamedia- tubular plastic cylinders with a Y cross, round gears
      Matala filter bio-media - excellent interstitial space in a matt
      AlphaGrog- ceramic rock, highly porous, popcorn random shaped
      Ultra bio media- plastic sinking high biofilm surfaced 1/2 inch noodles
      Aquarock- couldn't tell ya if there was one in my underwear
      Momo Bakki house media- porous ceramic cylinders with FIR emissions
      Lava rock- natural Igneous volcanic rock, many colors, densities, very porous
      Biohome- sintered glass biomedia

      Good word droppers to know

      Interstitial- related to or situated in small narrow spaces in porous substances
      Polycarbonate- polyester thermoplastic, used for riot shields and helmets

    4. #44
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      This has been interesting and finally many truths have emerged. If a person/company wants to sell their product, I would think they would know all the ins and outs of the product. I don't feel it's up to a consumer to prove to the seller why the product is not what it claims to be. A good discussion is how we all learn but when the seller gets a bit hot under the collar and can not give full explainations of the product, my doubts as a consumer increases. There are many wonderful and intelligent folks in the koi world,mostly hobbiest. Many have been in the hobby more years than some are of age. I thank those that have tried to help all of us understand every aspect to claims/advertisements. For tomorrow new technologies will emerge.

      Cheryl

    5. #45
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      It seems kind of odd about all the arguments going on here. We are talking about one product, Bateria house media. For a koi hobbyist, what is IMPORTANT is that a product WORKS.

      Do I care how it work? In a way, but not since I am not a scientist, I leave that to the scientist.

      Does the product do the job and perform the function it purports to do?
      This should be based on real life experiences of the people who used the product. So far, I have not seen or read one instance that someone used BHM and do not see significant improvement in all aspects of his hobby, I mean, water quality, fish health, fish growth, more time to enjoy your fish and less time in maintenance. Is not that what everybody is chasing after? To create a healthy enviroment that your koi can grow and grow to its potential?

      Do I care if BHM emit infra-red light? Do I care is that what makes BHM works? In a way, but not really.

      Luke Frisbee posted an interesting musing on how BHM work:
      (Quote) "Lava rock and BHM have spaces inwhich microbes and bacteria can colonize and form deep, complex, stable relationships. I think that the space within the media itself provide a significant area for the setting up of some symbiotic relationships that haven't been examined.
      I feel as though a peice of BHM or Lava rock becomes an organism unto itself, similar in cell association to jellyfish. Jelly fish have no central nervous system nor a transport system (circulatory system) yet somehow all the cells of a jellyfish share a successful kill. And the waste products created by internal cells are taken up and used by other cells or transported away as waste THROUGH OTHER CELLS.
      These bit of media may harbor cell colonies that form such alliances and are therefore solid living communities that act as complex organisms...the spaces within the media become entirely filled with biomass that filter feeds from the flowing water.
      And until i am shown how i am wrong that is what I feel is happening....the media provides the right spaces for these complex relationships to occur and remain. the entire space within and on the surface of a bit of BHM or Lava rock is a city of single cell organisms maintaining each other." (end quote)

      Why people who do not use BHM are doubters and naysayers?
      I am a doubter before I tried it.

      What is wrong with promoting BHM if you see and know it will help people to avoid pitfall and achieve what they set out to do? That is to enjoy your koi instead of chasing after them.

      Imagine a stalled car on a highway, is that fun? No. Most amater hobbyist' ponds are like a car that sooner or later will be stalled on a highway. It will do one of two things to the hobbyist, make him lose interest in the hobby or make him set out on a journey to improve his pond.

      I did the latter, and I am extremely pleased that I had the gut to try it. I have to say BHM does do wonderful things to your koi and pond.

      I do think it is quite expensive. I am not a dealer of any sort, but I will try buy in bulk and share with other people who want to try and make it less expensive.

      cheers

    6. #46
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      Tewa,
      Your knowledge about bakki shower is auesome. So with that would like to ask question. Been running my bakki shower about a 1 year now outside. Media is very black now. I did break one to see how it look inside and it is still white at bottom. My question is , will media have to be replace down the road a couple of years like you do with lava rock? Does Momotaro acid wash his media when he cleans his 15 ton pond? Thanks.

      JPR,
      It cost me $2000 for Momotaro media for my bakki shower. It must have cost a treasure box fortune to replace matting filter. Can you post some photos of your water, it must look like mountain spring water... I am seeing good growth, clean water, Ray Abel koi food helps alot too 55% protein.
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      Click for Lake Wales, Florida Forecast

    7. #47
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      i don't know how or pretend to know how it works but mine works for me mine has roughly 3500 uk gallons an hour going over it the fish are healthy and eating for england.
      also i am getting very good growth it has been running for one year and i would not want to be without it.
      it is on an outside pond coverd with polycarbonat sheet to stop the wind chill
      which works well.
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      arthur joe

    8. #48
      Gene's Avatar
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      Below is a picture taken in 2000. The filter was a shower tower I built out of some commercial plastic drip pans in 1997. I used those and some other pieces and parts from around the farm to build it. I took that picture primarily to show the comets and Shubunkins to someone on another forum. Over the three years that filter had been in use I had kept up to 100 six inch koi for several months with no health problems what so ever. They were fed heavy. The water remained crystal clear and I never had any problem with debris building up on the bottom of the tank. I did do a 10% water change each week. There were four drip pans 21" in diameter with 3/8" holes drilled all over the bottom. Each one contained 1/2 cubic foot of the fake lava rock (steel mill clinkers) I bought from Lowe's for about $8.00. That was a total of 2 cubic feet. The tank contained 500 gallons of water. The pump was a Pondmaster 1200 gph submersible mounted directly below the filter raised about 8" off the bottom of the tank. I used a 1-1/2" ABS pipe from the outlet of the pump running straight up through the center of the pans. The flow exited the top of the pipe into another drip pan with holes but no media. That was for water distribution. I left the filter out of that picture because it was so ugly. There was no pre-filtration on the pump. I used a piece of slotted plastic over the intake to keep the fish out.

      The second picture is the same type of filter that I set-up outside a couple of years ago. I used that tank for Dale and Patti's quarantine tank since I couldn't find a new one at the time.



      Gene




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      The only failures are those that stop trying! There is a very thin line between procrastination and delayed gratification. You won't be happy with what you want, if you aren't happy with what you have. It's not what you are looking at, but where you are looking from.

    9. #49
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Sundan, what is this- show and tell?! LOLs Here's a shot from a few years back- need to get some new ones, but then again, my water always looks the same- thank God! JR
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      Smile

      I take that back- winter ! JR
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    11. #51
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      Actually what really matters is to remember the pond is a system. I am not sold that one thing on a pond is what gives this fantastic growth. It all has to work together. That means the media, filter(s), water quality, food and even the fish. I do agree that as long as you are happy with your system and the maintenance involved to keep the system in top shape....fantastic. Happy pondering.

      Cheryl

    12. #52
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      Indoor pond/quarantine water. JR
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    13. #53
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      Close up of my TTs. JR
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    14. #54
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      And this funny looking monstrosity is a home made TT/wet/dry I experimented with in 1986-89 or so. The funny think about this ugly beast is that you can see the water falls down into that plexi rectangular center piece. It has 3 shelves with filter material- so that raw water falls from shelf to shelf in sheets of water- like bakki trays ( only I cleaned it!) . It then hits the base of the rubbermaid and falls into the lower rubbermaid- filled with that ceramic media I mentioned. From there, it is pumped up into the TTs ( as a secondary filter loop) and then back into the base again- then back to the 600 gallon aquarium in the kitchen. Kinda looks like Willie Wanka's chocolate factory doesn't it? Somebody- lock me up! JR
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      You know Cheryl, you have said something very wise there. In an interview with Momotaro ( I'm pretty sure in Koi-Bito magazine?) he said that no single factor accounts for jumbo growth. If one thing is off, according to Maeda, all is lost. If food and diet are wrong you won't succeed. If the diet is right but the water quality is off you won't succeed. And if the maintenance is not followed you lose again. He summed it up by saying no one aspect can be pointed to as being more important than the others.
      I think you can find the interview in one of the first few issues Brain Sousa did with Momotaro back in 2002-03?
      Anyone interested in this stuff should try and get all Koi-Bito back issues, they are excellent.
      JR

    16. #56
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      Tewa evidenly doesn't know SMG has been running a Bakki Shower test for the past year and a half.

      Mate, I thought Austrailians usually out Texas Texans. I have heard comments from yall such as, "Texas? We have sheep stations that size". I thought yall knew the meaning of good sized.

      Run a three times an hour turn over rate in a 5000 LITER system? Thats only 2500 gallons! Thats like a holding tank for tosai. My Q tank alone 5000 gallons. My pond is 48,0000 liters so I would have to turn 150,000 liters an hour Maeda's way. PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO TURN 3 TIMES AN HOUR FOR THE THING TO WORK. We are not all Japanese millionaires here.

      Tell you what else. No difference between the performance of lava rock and BH for media in the thing either.

    17. #57
      Gene's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ShiroMujiGirl
      Tell you what else. No difference between the performance of lava rock and BH for media in the thing either.
      I've been preaching that ever since the Bakki Shower and Bacteria House media was introduced to the market. Most just ignore me. I guess those that have already spent the money have to justify their doing so. Those that are selling it need to sell it, especially if they have already invested lots of money in inventory. I could have offered it for sell when it first came into the US and did consider it. I got a sample and compared it to lava rock and like you, SMG, I could not justify the expense. If I were to convince someone to buy this media for $100 per cubic foot as opposed to paying $4.00 per cubic foot for lava rock I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
      Gene




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    18. #58
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      Jeeeesssss! Tantrum over yet, Tewa?! No ice cream for you!
      Laddy, first of all, who said I was talking about Sakai ? Sakai is only ONE breeder I admire . I admire several others as well. Lets not get ‘projecting again’. I’m not committed to anyone in the way you suggest. More passive aggressive stuff on your part I think?
      As for my age? We all get there my friend. Just close your eyes and it will happen. The trade off is you also gain wisdom and perspective. Something I think a pup like yourself needs badly.

      So you suggested I get a geological report to prove there are rays coming out of the ceramic. Yet you, a sole exclusive importer haven’t tested it? You are selling it to the public based on what? Faith? No wonder a lone wolf like myself makes you nervous! For your sake, I hope the Emperor turns out to have clothing on!

      Meanwhile back at the ranch- TTs and wet/drys will improve almost any system and impress almost everyone who uses one for the first time. This would include a bakki style wet/dry. The details of long term performance then, is the only thing left to improve or debate. IF the difference between a bakki and any other wet/dry comes down to THE MEDIA, and the media called BH has radiation as an added special form of filtration, then we are talking about something ‘different’. Otherwise get in line- there are about three dozen other forms of media available for wet/dry systems.

      I’m apparently a victim of education? I know a little about fish physiology. And a little about biochemistry. I understand how the levels of pollution and the general grade of water quality will negatively effect growth. I do not understand how perfect water can be more perfect in terms of growing carp? Once the proper microbial species are present, balanced and in equilibrium with the nutrient sources put out by fish and outside world, the water is conditioned and mellow.
      And once water is at oxygen saturation levels for temperature, you can’t get ‘more’. In fact, ‘more’ is a bad thing at a point.

      So I’m left with the radiation rays from the media as the only variable? And I’m concerned about organic content that is not drawn off the closed system. The marketing insists that it is all true but they can’t prove a thing. Only their observations are that it is a miracle of sorts. I’m asked, as a amateur hobbyist , to lay out $2000- $4000 and accept it all on blind faith. So this is the phenomena I have chosen to explore. The observation and the explanation. That is all I’m interested in. If I , as an extension of this curiosity, mess with business interests- so be it- you’d think on some level these guys would be grateful! I understand that this stuff costs a fortune to import and stock ( shipping alone can be thousands) and the stainless steel trays are also ‘spendy’, BUT ‘refunds’ are even more expensive and can destroy a small business! It would be wise to have some perspective on the science before going gang busters on the inventory, wouldn’t it?

      At any rate, mine is only intellectual curiosity. And I’ve never been one of life’s lemming. Nothing to do with money, other breeders I admire for their fish producing skills or defense of some other filter product. I’m free to explore and I’m love’n it.

      Do I hold a grudge against you? In real life, I run a program where I hire MBAs for the firm I consult for. Young pups like yourself, full of **** and vigor. I like being around them, lots of energy! You just can’t leave rakes and such laying about or they will surely step on them and knock themselves out! No grudges- I like your passion. But you could loose the passive aggressive streak - it does you no favor and makes you as readable as a koi magazine!

      Gramps

    19. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by charlieliu
      Hype or not, I see real differences. Clear water is one thing, clear water plus healthy, vibrant fish is another. I am just happy that my maintenance time is cut way down. No matala to clean, what a hassle it is to drag it out of the settling tank and hose it off. I am no scientist, nor a water parameter guy, but result is what makes me happy about it. This is the closest thing to a maintenance free filtration as it can get.

      You are right on the dot! Clear water plus healthy, vibrant koi. Almost close to maintenance free.

      The days before I added 100kg of BH to my TT system, my sub-chambered filter system needed to be clean once every 2 months, (other than the weekly normal hosing of matala media) where I have to take out all the media from the sub-chambers - bio-rings, corals, brushes, media mats, etc. Wow! was it dirty! The chambers are full of sludge, likewise heavy coatings of sludge on all media.

      Today, for almost a year, I did not do any cleaning of chambers. There hardly was any sludge or sediments in the 1st brushes chamber (when I flushed the water out with a submerged pump I have installed in the 1st chamber). Water remains good and koi are growing healthyly - all 40+ in a 12ton pond. All ranging from 50Bu-65BU+. If I would have maintained my sub-chambered filtration system plus my heavy feeding - I am sure it wouldn't be able to take that heavy load. Well, today I am happy with the present set-up.

      For BHM: tewa, dubtaco, hanyakoi, salfiery, poey, L5vegan, charlieliu, sundan, maurice, khoffman19, ajm808, mike sandan & nigel, luke frisbee, rogermoo, momotaro & the advocator brian sousa - total: 17

      Against BHM: JR, schildkoi, koiphenatic, gene, biuOTMS, Stephen Koiphen, shiromujigirl, chricC - total: 8

      Looks like there are people who believe in it, wants to believe in it, have tried it and believe in it.

    20. #60
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      Hanya, not 'against' just skeptical about certain claims. And for conversation sake it is wise to divide this discussion up into:

      1) the media itself. Its powers and special attributes

      2) the concept of the shower design ( without prefilter or sump) and maintenance technique.

      In my case I will be testing the media as I already have extensive experience with TTs and there overall benefits. I think this will be a unique view since I will not be overly influenced by the 'change' that occurs in a system when going from simple submerged to elevated wet/dry.
      I'm stunned that you guys have not figured out where the sludge is in a bakki only system? Where do you think it goes Hanya?

      If you read the interview in Bito with Maeda, he says the average hobbyist only needs to clean the BH once a year at most but that he cleans it more often- once to twice a month depending on stocking levels. But now it seems that no cleaning is needed at all ? Not suggesting anything sinister here ( I haven't cleaned my TTs since they were set up in 1988!) just wondering if somthing is being lost in the marketing?
      JR

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