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    Thread: opinion on bakki showers posted on NI

    1. #1
      tewa is offline Senior Member
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      opinion on bakki showers posted on NI

      This posts were posted by JR a very experienced koi keeper, there is a lot of science in it and I just wanted to see your opinions.

      First off, do not confuse TTs ( trickle towers) with Wet dry biofilters ( this would include the bakki shower).

      TTs are NON- trapping filters. In fact they are useless as mechanical or prefilters. The idea of a TT is to have:
      1) a huge non clogging, non-packing media , suspended in air so that falling water can ‘trickle’ over the surface in continuous thin layers. This allows for maximum oxygen contact with the bacteria/ammonia/nitrite reaction. It also allows for degassing of trapped gases within the water column ( various nitrogen gaseous forms).
      2) If you think about it, a pond has a rather small surface area for its total water volume. Especially those ponds that are 8-12 feet deep. By using a TT, you increase your ‘water surface’ exponentially by running water over the media in thin layers. The water in the towers at any one moment can be viewed as an alternative water surface. Think of this gas exchange as a two way street- good gas in – bad gas out. Pumping air up the column while you run/trickle water down the column is an additional incentive for both bacteria and gas exchange.

      Your column should be as tall as space will allow. 8-10 feet is good. I favor an air stone over a fan for air exchange as I want my entire media surface and walls of the TT to be exposed to high humidity. The ‘speed’ of the falling water can be slow or fast. But I have found water ‘trickling’ to be better than water roaring down over the media.

      A wet/dry biofilter is very similar except most designs are also detritus trapping and therefore perform two roles- prefilter/mechanical as well as biological. These two functions are usually accomplished independently until one is at the expense of the other. In these filters, water can be run rapidly through the layers and probably should, as the trapped organics will have a tendency to ‘go off’ and produce excess decay/anaerobic conditions and gases in a slow gentle water flow.
      The bakki show is the only wet/dry filter system in the world that claims the waste build up is harmless and even desirable. I remain skeptical about this claim and wait for the science to catch up to the marketing.
      JR

      ‘Thinking outside the filter box’
      This whole subject of biofiltration can be reduced to two issues:

      1) the idea of two stages- mechanical and biological. And each designed to address organic and inorganic pollution separately.
      2) the concept of biofilter efficiency Vs reduced biofilter activity ( the taming of an over active biofilter). This is a tricky balance to understand at first but is really very simple. Very efficient biofiltration is good and desirable, but excess biofiltration leads to excess nitrates. The ideal compromise would be a system that vents and gases off nitrogen and/or dilutes ammonia produced via continuous water changes and THEN efficiently removes the residual ammonia via normal nitrification. This results in very little fluctuation away from the ideal base line reading of common pollutants in general.

      Here would be an example of a biofilm ‘evolution’ that changes/improves efficiency but is still ultimately quagmired in issue #1–

      An under-gravel filter is made of three inches of coral rubble or volcanic rock rubble. It works very well and cycles very quickly- 18 to 22 days. It soon shows some nitrate readings. Over time the potential for anaerobic activity improves and channeling and reduced oxygen level prevail.
      Now the undergravel filter is placed on a tray and moved above the water line- we spray water over it. It acts as it did before only it becomes more efficient. Much of the decaying waste vents it gaseous byproduct into the atmosphere and away from the fish. This is obviously a better outcome. Stage three- we create three trays of these ‘undergravel’ filters , all above the water line. Water falls from one tray to the other. This is now called a wet/dry biofilter. The gravel in the trays gets progressively cleaner as the first one or two trays acts as a mechanical strainer for organics as well as a biological reactor for inorganics. Most harmful byproducts of decay are gassed off. Organisms develop that feed on the organic slurry trapped in the filters. It is true that channeling occurs but the rich oxygen environment allows for maximum bacteria/oxidation efficiency within the sections of the media that are lowest in organic fouling.

      JR

      Clever boy!
      So we still have the organic slurry 'in circulation'. This pollutant must remained contained, just like we would not want the slurry from a FF ( foam fractionator/protein skimmer) to leech back into solution once it is in the 'scum pot' of the FF.
      A koi pond is destine to become a progressively nutrient rich situation. The gravel traps the results of this process, isolates it, vents the gaseous byproducts etc. But the passing water still recaptures a percentage.. This would include the cultivation and migration of those species that thrive on such organics. So we often see DOCs collected at the base of many wet/dry filters- large and small bubbles and suds that seem to immune from the normal physics that causes bubbles to poop! This is due to the ‘skin’ formed at the water’s surface as organic molecules cling to water and air. There are also things like POCs and TOCs in water subject to eutrophication. But that is another conversation.
      Just suffice it to say, the result of all this, is water that has a higher than desirable, free bacteria count. The only way to counter this is with water changes, less fish and/or less food. In a system with stocking levels of one fish per 2000- 6000 gallons, you would likely get excellent results based on dilution factors. In systems of less than 250- 200 gallons per fish, I think you are going to hit ‘ the wall’ at some point. This is because the more the eutrophication of the environment, the less the carrying capacity of that water. This is the classic battle between heterotrophic species driven by organics and autotrophic species driven by primarily, inorganic ammonia.
      And of course, the big test for all pond filter designs is in the season nature of ponds. As water cools and light periods shorten, the biology of a pond winds down. In this process, the slurry is no longer biologically neutralized. In Spring, you have pure pollution entering a ‘sleepy’ biological environment. In the old days this meant back breaking cleaning of stones and gravel and the painful work of cleaning lava rock. The alternative was to dump this slurry back into circulation. And that is why aeromonas was the scourge it was in the eighties and early nineties. Fueled by weak fish and unstable microbial activity, spring time and ‘dead winter water’ naturally encouraged the myth of aeromonas alley and the practice of over cleaning seasonal koi ponds.

      Now having restated all this history, I have yet to see enough feed back on systems that are using Bakki exclusively, stocking normally and not heating in winter. These bits of info will help me mentally, to move the bakki shower out of the class of filters known as wet/dry biofilters.
      And the single biggest reason for my skepticism regarding the ‘total bakki experience’ is that this would be the very first system in the entire world that combines mechanical/prefiltration and biological filtration in one stage and says that it is open-ended in that design approach, with no limitations over time/ seasons or stocking level considerations. In other words, it claims to be ‘immortal’ in performance and ‘immune’ to organic waste build up and seasonal disruption. A lot to swallow .

      JR

      Ian, I’m not sure if the proper response will put everyone to sleep that reads it! Bacteria can be lumped and grouped into many sub-categories based on :
      Environmental preference-
      *Temperature range/pH range/ORP ranges
      *Oxidizing/ reductive nature
      Behavioral preference-
      * Use of oxygen, carbon dioxide in their metabolic activities
      Physical characteristics-
      * the general shape of individual cells.
      * ability to produce spores or not.
      * sedentary or gliding/swimming.
      * how they absorb dye based within their cell wall construction
      * the design and presence of the certain internal structures

      For our purposes, we want to know if those species that use organic material for generating energy are producing toxic byproducts OR are potential pathogens by nature. The bacteria breaking down dense detritus and living in the base of biofilm is truly anaerobic and will only operate at very low ORP levels. And the byproduct can be nasty things like methane . Their activity can be more broad however and also straight forward- like the depletion of oxygen levels . Over time, this same environment also produces the second group - both opportunistic and dedicated pathogens.
      People may not realize it but bacteria coats the entire pond, including the fish. The fish have a slime coat to protect them from bacteria damaging their living tissue ( and most common forms of heterotrophic forms are utilizing dead organic matter). But if a koi’s immune system is not working well or the slime coat is eroded away or the count of bacteria is astronomically large- these normally occurring bacteria will begin to infect living cells.
      For our conversation, as water declines in quality ( LOSS of important micro and macro nutrients, buffers and oxygen molecules and INCREASE in organic content and inorganic nitrogen) the koi’s immune response is weaken by stress and at the same time, large numbers of bacteria like aeromonas, flexibacter and pseudomonas are produced. Once pretty much so much white background noise, these species now dominate the water column. In fact there is a tipping point where a simple water change can no longer dilute and bring things in line again. This is party due to the fact that these species are also gifted prolific breeders.
      So this particular group of heterotrophic species are not so much about anaerobic toxic factories but rather about ‘utilizers’ of organic tissue. They still produce toxins but in the infection mode and this is what kills living cells.
      So whether the species is one that uses organic material and produces gaseous byproduct or one that uses up organic fuel and puts a load on the pond’s carrying capacity, is not as important as why they are doing so well in a given environment. The secondary result of this environment will be the disease causing agents, once the dynamics of low ORP, low oxygen, high carbon dioxide and possible dangerous gases have done their damage to koi’s immunity and the normal balance of good and bad bacteria populations.
      JR


      This is my response to JR post

      just a few queries I respect you as a very knowledgable person. You say that organic sludge builds up in a bakki shower system and overtime it is decayed by these anaerobic bacteria at the base of a biofilm.

      Overtime this would lead to other pathogenic bacteria being more prominent in the pond. Would this not happen even more in a submerge system since the ORP levels are much lower.

      And in most TT or bakki shower systems ORP levels are very high in the pond water would this mean that the pathogenic bacteria are less likely to occur compared to a normal submerged system

      Last question ORP levels must be quite high in bakki shower systems at the biofilm/water interface. Is it ignorant to assume the majority of the biofilm is aerobic? and that with such high turnover top layers of the biofilm are removed and new layers are formed. As these new layers are exposed to water with high ORP there would be less chances of these anaerobic bacteria growing? And if they did they would probably be greatly outnumbered? thus in your scenario of these bacteria causing other pathogenic bacteria to proliferate would not be likely in a bakki shower/wet/dry filter pond. Since there are less anaerobic bacteria in a high ORP environment how is it that the organics decay and degas so effectively?

      Thus in submerge systems there would more likely be a higher number of this anaerobic bacteria, would this mean that submerge filters can decay organics faster? That sounds good, but that would cause the scenario you described with low ORP and causing pathogenic bacteria to proliferate in submerge systems, especially with a settlement chamber that most likely would only be flushed once a day.

      Lastly JR there are many systems that are bakki shower that stock more koi than 200 to 250 gallons and have not had the problems that you say will happen when the organic sludge build up. A few of these ponds have been running for more than 2 to 3 seasons. And a fair few of them still go through a winter period with pond water of 15 to 16 degrees. The problem you described may happen in 10 years time to a bakki showered pond but would that not be because the bioload has grown so significantly that really more showers should be added. Bacteria house in bakki shower is a great system but it will have its limits in regards to nitrification and degassing.


      best regards
      TEWA

      ps I have always learnt a lot from reading your posts

    2. #2
      Koi is the Best's Avatar
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      I'm eventually getting one, anything that can make my fish look like the one below I'm sold on. This is
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    3. #3
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      Absolutely... Nothing but CLEAN WELL FILTERED water should ever hit the tower/shower so place it after the filtration, UV etc and let it flow to the pond.
      sarah

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      For my friends who asked---
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      Actual photo of long mat chamber now removed and replaced with bacteria house---
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      a closer look---
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      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      For tonight's chat Roddy, please post a picture of your actual TT, as we all thought for years the pink Freudian sculpture was your TT! In fact I was sure I remembered you talking about the lava rock inside this waterfall/TT, its cleaning etc? I'll see if I saved a copy--

      At any rate, if that TT is now a waterfall, can you please provide a side by side photo and I'll do the same here so we can discuss the advantages of both? Here's mine of course, you've seen it many times before. By the way, I also have these as three foot towers- that is what I'm using on the cycling experiments/demos right now.
      Thanks much, JR
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    8. #8
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
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      For those who ask, attached below is a picture of the main biofilter on our outdoor koi pond, in service, with koi, with Lizzie beside it so you get an idea of size. It is a 24 inches in diameter, 36 inches tall, cylinder made out of pieces of lava rock 5 inches thick in the outer shell glued together with Epoxy glue. It is a commercial biofilter I bought and had shipped from Las Vegas, specifically the No 5 lava rock fountain sold by Larry Womack of Nevada Water Gardens (www.nevadawatergardens.com).

      Like Lizzie said, the computers at work at the big chemical plant are not allowed to access public message boards, for security reasons. So if you see my name surfing on weekdays during working hours, it is Lizzie surfing on my account at her worktime computer.

      The primary information for trickle tower filters is contained in a 5 years old continuous thread on the Malaysian koi message board at:

      http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koifor...=unread#unread

      The folks in Malaysia and Singapore have much more knowledge on this subject than anyone in the Western hemisphere.

      They have many successful trickle towers on their ponds that are less than 12 inches high, but do prefer higher towers to shorter ones.

      And, like Lizzie said, we are off on vacation this weekend, not at any computer, "living our life", and perhaps those who are too caught up in message boards should "get a life".

      I took off the comment about pleasant discussions, since with JR around, it is difficult for anything to remain pleasant anyway.
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      Started as a full time graduate student in Environmental Science in Jan 2019 at age 77 now to start a new career. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi. Have developed a package of age regression technology to become younger instead of older. Doing great!

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      Okie dokie– My best pal Roddy suggested that short towers are as good as tall towers and the only reason I recommended a tall as possible tower, when asked , was because I’m an egomaniac! Well, I may very well be an egomaniac but that is not why, when asked, that I made the recommendation .

      A pond is a very artificial body of water no matter how ‘natural’ it is made to look. And certainly nature alone could not support the amount/weight of life we attempt to keep in our ponds! Our dedicated koi ponds tend to be fairly deep relative to the square surface of the pond. A pond that is say 22 ft X 14 ft and 6 ft deep holds almost 14,000 gallons of water. Yet its surface is only 308 sq feet. This does not give the water column much chance to ‘exchange’ with the atmosphere. So this water/air interface could not be more important when it comes to a healthy environment for fish.

      In a living system, the regulation and production of what are known as non-conservative gases is almost completely regulated at the waters surface. The big three for our conversation are- oxygen, carbon dioxide and nitrogen ( various species) . And although most koi ponds will see very little in the way of hydrogen sulfide it is also in this family of non conservative gases and is also regulated by the water/air interface as it vents to the atmosphere.
      Oxygen is present in the air in reasonable abundance- about 20% of the atmospheric mix. It also will be found naturally dissolved in water. The amount that is found in water is called the saturation level and this maximum level is determined by temperature. The cooler the water, the more oxygen can be held, the warmer the water the less the saturation level.
      The WAY oxygen ‘gets into’ water is either by being ‘pushed in’ by atmospheric pressure at the air/water interface OR by photosynthesis. The movement ( turbulence on either side of the interface) of that surface water is what actively brings that surface water up to saturation for temperature levels. And these dissolved levels are relatively modest compared to the percentages in the air. In fact we need to measure oxygen in parts per million to get an idea of saturation levels.
      On the consumption side, every living system has a ‘demand for oxygen’. The bacteria, the algae and the fish all contribute to a gross or total demand for this precious gas. This is known as BOD or biological oxygen demand. I mentioned bacteria here. Many bacteria forms feed on organic material. This can account for a large percentage of total BOD in a koi pond. So the dirtier or more over stocked a koi pond, the more important regular gas exchange at the air/water interface is! The good gas in and the bad gases out! This is what people tend to be so amazed and perhaps over impressed when they move a biofilter out of the submerged state an into the open air. It is not that the TT is magical. It is that the water was suffering from lack of gas exchange due to high BOD compared to the limited surface space or limited turn over rates.
      Gases like oxygen need to have opportunity to enter water. But other gases, like nitrogen gases and other intermediate nitrogenous gas species, as well as carbon dioxide, need to leave the water as they are in ‘excess’ due to normal and excess biological activity. These are also gases that need to be in relationship with other gases in the water. Carbon dioxide, for instance, wants to be free in the atmosphere. Yet in one turns down the aeration in a pond water or even a blue show tank, rising carbon dioxide levels will be trapped to the extent that they will lower pH- a true indicator that this potentially harmful gas needs help in getting to the air/water interface.
      A living system is a complicated system, biochemically speaking. Even in simple microbe activity, several forms of gas can be produced. The venting of gaseous ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is possible and beneficial to any living system. Some have suggested that TTs reduce nitrate. This is ultimately correct, but the explanation is not as simple as that. What TTs do is vent all volatile nitrogenous gases as they form at each level, reducing the total production and therefore, ultimately the end product nitrate. So in a well circulated system, nitrogen forms are in what could be described as a ‘leaky’ system, in which total ammonia is grabbed by algae, heterotrophic bacteria, nitrifying bacteria and the atmosphere itself.

      So how does a TT fit into all this? And why is a tall TT an advantage?
      Well for one, a tall TT such as the one I use, represents 16 cubic feet of space. I use 4 units for a total square footage 64 cubic feet. The media I use has a huge surface space and excellent void space. It is rated at 110 square feet per single cubic foot. That means that my total square footage for this 7,000 plus system is 7,040 square feet! A pond surface of 200 feet long X 35 feet wide does not have as much air/water interface as these four towers. Think about that in terms of gas exchange opportunity- both oxygen in, and carbon dioxide and nitrogen species out. Add back the actual agitated pond surface and you have an entirely new ratio of total water volume to air/water interface. This is the secret of TT action/presence. The massive surface obviously easily removes ammonia biologically, and this is of course all important but not the subject we are focusing on at the moment.
      The 8 ft plus height of the tower simply means that at any one moment you have a huge percentage of total pond water in circulation in a air/water interface ‘zone’. And much of it is present right AT the site of oxidation, where gases can be generated. The 500 gallons plus of water in thin sheets and in contact with biofilm is a huge benefit. In the case of the Roddy pink phallic symbol, the basic concept is sound, but I don’t begin to see it as ‘stiff’ ( pun intended) competition to the surface area of other media such as the one I use, nor as an overly impressive total square footage of air/water interface? But all things tend to work better and in mysterious ways in that backyard in West Virginia!

      Does this mean that submerged filters are bad or obsolete? - NOT AT ALL! Submerged filtration has some real advantages over true TTs and even some wet/dry systems. But for degassing, TTs are the state of the art. With wet/drys and dynamic submerged media type right behind them as a close second.
      JR

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by JPR
      Here's mine of course, you've seen it many times before. By the way, I also have these as three foot towers- that is what I'm using on the cycling experiments/demos right now.
      Thanks much, JR
      JR, your four 3 feet towers, may I asked what are they filled with? Silica/sand? And how do you run them in your TT format? Please advise. Thxs.
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      Morning! Normally same material as the big girls ( plastic bioballasts in the picture below) .
      I'm using three now, however, on an experiment for demonstrating the time frame required for the nitrification cycle to be completed and I'm using three different media types- crude lava rock, these geolite balls ( pictured) and cut up Jmat-like material ( 2 X 2 inch squares).
      JR
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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by JPR
      Gents, I've been invited to judge in your part of the world a few times. How safe is the region for Americans to travel in these days? I've traveled in Japan with a few Malaysian dealers and well as Indonesian dealers and they seemed very respectful and friendly. But we hear things in the media about great hostility towards westerners and Americans in particular. Comments? JR
      We would love you to come to Malaysia to be one of our ZNA certified judge during our annual ZNA Koi Show which would be held next year 2006, sometime in May or June, i.e. if you consent.

      This year in May, saw almost 700 koi entered for the contest. Mr. Masao Kato came personally to be the head judge of the show. He loved our country very much. Mr. Richard Tan, President of ZN Singapore Koi Club was here, so is Mr.Ces Graham & Mr. David Gibson of ZN Western Australia and Mr. Bolly A. Prabanto of ZN Jakarta, Indonesia. Guests came from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong too. During our ZN Show, we invite all guest members from across Asia, as far as Australia and even South Africa. If you are a ZNA certified judge, everything is taken care off by the club and you needed to pay for your own airfare only.

      Malaysia is a safe place for vacation. A multi-racial country where we have all sort of races staying together peacefully in one country. Ask Chris, he is married to a Malaysian. There are no discrimination - and we mixs well, Malays, Chinese, Indians, Eurasians or Westerners. We stayed next doors to other races in housing estates, and we work harmoniously together building up this great nation. Unless you have been to Malaysia, you will never realise how beautiful Malaysia is! Things are cheap, hotel rates are low, you can get yourself all sorts of food - Eastern or Western, exchange rate is US$1 to RM3.60. But most of all - Malaysia is a beautiful country to stay in.

      Take for example koi keeping, it is being enjoyed by all the races, Malays, Chinese, Indians and others. Infact, last year 2004 ZNA Young Koi Show Championship was won by a Malay friend of mine. Koi keeping is one hobby that unites all races too, just like my country staying united amongst all races.

      Hostility towards Americans/Westerners? Not in Malaysia. Infact USA is the biggest investor in our country and we have a lot of Americans expatriates staying in our country. I am sure you heard of American companies like Intel, Dell, AIA, General Motors, Citibank, Chase/Morgan, MacDonalds, PizzaHuts, etc. etc., there all all here! Like I said, the USA investments in Malaysia is HUGE so are companies from Europe, Japan and others.

      So JR, don't believe what you read in some Western newspapers, you should come and see for yourself to believe what a peaceful and harmonious country we are living in.

      Likewise, believe what TT & Bakki Showers (tall or short / wet/dry) could do for your ponds. I am using two 6' tall TT towers with 100kg of bacteria house and it does wonder to my pond. Only 12 tons but with almost 40 koi in it ranging from above 65BU to 45BU. My sub-chambered filter is less than 10% of pond size, and is only half-filled with water running through. I don't care about the scientific part of it as long as it performs well for my pond. No algae blooms (I don't know why?) Water is crystal clear (I don't know why?) I do only 10%-15% water change a week (this I know why). All my koi are growing healthily and no bacteria/parasite infestation for the past years.

      Frankly speaking, some members here and there are very skeptical about it and complained also that the 'bacteria house' are expensive. They just don't realise how much it cost them if a good quality koi died on them. To me, it's cheap and good. BTW I am not a promotor/dealer for bacteria house. I used it and I know how good they are but if you asked me to explain the technical part of it - sorry brother, this cool dude don't really knows.

      Cheers

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      hi
      i ain't a real teckie kind of person,i prefer to base my conclusions on personal experience.
      but i do run a bakki showered pond spec as follows(all uk gallons)
      pool size 5000gal,1 double shower,1 single,180kg bhm turn over through showers 9000gph,the showers are enclosed inside the filter house returning to the pool through a chute.
      i have a 2ft vortex on the skimmer line with static K1, 2000gph on this line, this i fluidize and flush to waste daily total water changes around 100gals a day,so no massive water changes.
      all my water params are perfect,the tds of my source water is 220,the pool runs 280,my ORP is 320.
      works for me.
      cheers Dave.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JPR
      Thanks so much guys, great input from each and every one of you! One of the most rewarding things about being in ZNA is the chance to meet and visit so many 'sister and brother' countries and see how koi keeping is done there. The ZNA fraternity is rich with talent!
      I know Richard Tan well and also Kato San. Wonderful koi kichi!

      Got a call today from a bacteria house dealer and it looks like I will have to spend over $2600 for the bacteria house volume I need! But I'm koi kichi too! So stay tuned.

      JR
      Nice to hear that you knew Richard Tan and Kato San. Interesting people and wonderful, wonderfully koi kichi guys!

      HIP! HIP! HORRAY! YEH! SO ARE WE - ARE ALL KOI KICHI AND YOU ARE THE REAL 'GURU', 'SIFU', 'GRANDMASTER' ALL IN ONE, WHO REALLY KNOWS SOOOOO..... MUCH!!!
      .... so is Roddy Conrad, but.... he's more oxthodox in his manner of keeping koi... I follow a bit from him (here & there) but learn more and understand more from you.

      US$2,600 for bacteria house alone? Wow! that's a lot of money; let's see... US$2,600 x Ringgit Malaysia $3.80 = RM$9,880 divided by RM$55 per kilo gives you approx. 180kg of bacteria house which is enough for 50ton pond if used together with chambered submerged mat media/& others.

      BTW, JR do you believe in that bacteria house which are a mixture of silica and other mineral oxides thermal treated to 1700 degrees could release far-infrared rays which are good for koi metabolism? Please comment. Cheers

    15. #15
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Do I accept the explanation of far infrared powers of bacteria house media? Honestly I don't.
      I think it is a good lightweight media with a lot of surface and being as rough as it is, allows for good biofilm attachment early on.
      If you know marine invert. systems , you know that live rock is based on a similar idea- low nitrification and low denitrification. But then again, those system depend on low BOD and low stocking levels in general. And often protein skimmers are used to draw off raw protein and amino acids before mineralization can even take place- further reducing potential ammonia sources.
      The bakki went , since 1998, from a mimicking of nature ( complete with the bakki bays being filled with water plants) and as an ‘end’ stage filter unit- used on a huge, lightly stocked system, to a stand alone filter, fed raw organic/inorganic water directly in highly stocked systems! If you look at the evolution of filters in Japan, especially Japanese breeding facilities, you see lots of wet/dry systems and Trickle towers used mostly for adding buffer and oxygen to water ( oyster shell media in plastic creates, being the most common) . So the evolution to other media was natural I suppose? But the media of any type is still subject to certain realities.
      The waste treatment industry, in south of Japan, uses ceramic media for its trickle tower waste treatment systems. And a simple search on far infrared powers will show a cult-like belief that is only rivaled by those that believe very strongly in the power of magnets. I can comfortably agree to remain open minded about such things but am disturbed that the science on such things is really pretty sketchy.
      One of the most glaring problems with the idea of organic/inorganic conversion within the bacteria house is that all studies I have ever seen show that biofilm surfaces thicken and ‘seal’ the inner areas of the substrate it grows on, making a barrier for free movement of water and nutrient impossible. If you have an answer unit with the older finer micron screen, for instance, you can see that after a while, the biofilm will seal the screen and reduce water flow dramatically. The same is true with the surface of activated carbon over time. Even a glass panel places in a pond will be coated with biofilm in relatively short order. So the suggestion that this bacteria house media can avoid this universal reality is pretty hard to accept?
      The tests that ‘prove’ far infrared powers like ‘flattening a beer’s head of foam’ seems more like a parlor trick to me than scientific demonstration? I can do that will a Tums tablet or many other additives? So I can’t get too impressed by that ‘proof’?
      So, never say never ( unless it has to do with Roddy and Roark’s overnight nitrification cycle! LOLs) but at this point, I think the far infrared explanation is a hard sell.
      JR

      PS here is a ceramic media surface made right here in North Carolina ( promised Gene! )
      Attached Images Attached Images  

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      Hi JR

      There are many scientific studies and research papers out there on Far Infrared Rays and what they can do. A member on koichat who has had a chance to study something about nuclear physics, radiation, and infrared rays in my past, and their effect on molecular structures. he says think of the slurry as a tumor and the media as a radiation treatment, it breaks it down and changes it to molecularly different properties. Makes it disappear into and easily consumed, in it's changed molecular structure.

      He states that bakki showers with bacteria house are not just a biological filter but a radiation filter, he says "The claim they make to the radiation effect breaking up the molecules of water, and thus releasing waste and degassing from the water molecules, and breaking up the molecules of waste to be much more quickly and easily consumed as long as there is sufficient aeration (ie the shower), is 100% true". They are combining sciences, which is why they are getting the results and are able to make the claims they are. The bakki shower is not jsut a biologically based filter, but a radiation based filter. Very different technology than anything else on the market, and that is why they are able to use one filter media to perform both tasks"

      this member has posted some links in regards to FAR infrared rays as I requested, should I post it here for you JR and other members?

      tewa

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      I have copied some information on FIR and their effects especially so on humans

      The infrared rays were known to the world in 1800 by a Germany scientist, F. W. Herschel. The infrared rays of longer wavelength than 780 nm and shorter wavelength than microwave do not cause sensation of light, but have many thermal effects. Therefore, the infrared rays have the drying and heating functions.






      Temperature range of our daily life is usually 280 C to -20 C, equivalent to the wavelength of far infrared rays, 5.2 m to 11.5 m, when calculated according to the Wien's displacement law. In the case of far infrared rays, only the wavelength band of
      3 m to 30 m is commercially utilized, which does not have any chemical function,
      but has physical and biological actions. Infrared rays' physical effects include the radiation, resonance absorption, and penetration, while the biological effects include expansion of fine blood vessels and reinforcement of metabolism.

      Generally known major effects of far infrared rays can be summarized as follow;


      A. Physiological and deodorization effects

      Our body is mainly consisted of water and protein. Especially, water amounts to 75%. Our body is generally activated when the oscillatory wavelength range of molecular movement of organic compounds is identical to that of far infrared ray radiated. Absorption spectrum of organic compounds is usually the wavelength range of 6 m to 14 m. Far infrared rays absorbed are penetrating into our body due to its property, causing generation of heat. Accordingly, the thermal effect and perspiration are resulted.

      Such effects result in expansion of fine blood vessels, promotion of blood circulation, activation of tissues, promotion of metabolism, and excretion of waste materials and hazardous metals, leading to activated regeneration and physiological metabolism. Therefore, far infrared rays ensure healthy life. Further, far infrared rays generate
      an ion for neutralization of cation, resulting in removal of bad smells.


      B. Activation of water

      Water is a cluster of 5 to 12 water molecules (H2O). When such cluster of water molecules is stimulated by far infrared rays, ultrasonic waves, magnetic field, or other external factors, the water molecular movement is activated due to resonance absorption and the number of water molecules forming the cluster is decreased, leading to activation of water.

      If far infrared rays of about 10 m, equivalent to oscillatory wavelength range of water molecule, are irradiated, the resonance absorption occurs, leading to decrease of clusters and faster movement of water molecules. In other words, the water is activated. And such activated water is tasty.


      C. Aging and growth promotion

      Aging refers to a process that the protein, lipid, or carbohydrate contained in food is digested or fermented by enzymes or microorganisms. Aging of proteins, lipids, or carbohydrates usually results in unique flavors. Irradiation of far infrared rays can cause activation of microbial growth in the course of vinegar production and promote aging of fermented soybean paste. Likewise, there have been lots of studies showing that far infrared rays activate water and promote aging. For example, two months are required for aging of fruit wine under natural conditions. However, irradiation of far infrared rays accelerates the aging process and makes the fruit wine only in one day.

      Activated water promotes the growth of plants. Vibration of water molecules increases, friction occurs, and water becomes cohesive. All these contribute to absorption of water. Metabolism is activated and roots take in nutrient elements, leading to promotion of growth. Further, far infrared rays promote the growth of flowering plants and enables flowers to last for longer time.



      there are countless numbers of websites with information on FIR. So is bacteria house just a magic media or was it developed based on science, I think there is plenty of science to prove the latter. Hope you enjoy reading this Doug Ward.

      TEWA

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      JR

      I am very happy to hear that you are going to try bacteria house, what are you planning to setup? Keep us posted.

      tewa

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      Thank you Tewa, that was funny and I enjoyed that post/tour on the powers of far infared radiation! As I said in an earlier post , you can do a simple search on the Internet and get the story about water clusters and the 'holistic stuff'. But I'm looking for the science as it pertains to the MEDIA!?
      So you are of the belief that this material, sitting here on my desk, is radiating far infared rays? And that the Maeda systems run on radiation ?
      JR

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