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  • Page 92 of 229 FirstFirst ... 8289909192939495102192 ... LastLast
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    Thread: ki shusui project with a twist :)

    1. #1821
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      Wayne thanks for the eye genetics thingy.. I am trying to absorb it

      Russell, thanks Russ.. I dun thin ogon will make the cut.. Max already remind me in our conversation that using hikari is a mistake.. They will come out kinsui, ginsui or other metallics version.. I think Max had them in her first spawn batch..

      Maxine: i know this is a learning curve for all of us Ki Kichi.. thank you for keep inspiring us and keeping up with your quest.. Hopefully one day all of us could build Ki Dynasty LOL

      For Max and Wayne.. Does the pattern on your ki shusui grow? I mean does it started as small pattern and filling in, in times?

    2. #1822
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      Quote Originally Posted by powerman View Post
      good, keeping them and growing them on in the big ponds will give you the option of using them later if you decide to... I think they could be backcrossed to the shusui.. but you have enough irons in the fire and going with your instincts is the best thing to do... I am just living vicariously through your project... You are having fun in the mud....
      LOL
      one year at the pull, i couldn't get myself out of the mud.
      Took two big strong men to hoist me out.

      No pictures!!!!



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    3. #1823
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      LOL
      one year at the pull, i couldn't get myself out of the mud.
      Took two big strong men to hoist me out.

      No pictures!!!!
      Sounds like good times
      DAN







    4. #1824
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      ...Here's my epiphany!

      !!!!!!!All spawns are flock spawns!!!!!!!...
      Ya know what Koigrl, I looked at that and went - Hu? What?! It's only a flock spawn if you allow it to be!!! If you use one selected female and one selected male, then it isn't flock spawn! BUT, then the penny dropped!! hahaha! You are right!! I think you are a genius!


      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      ... I've set my course.
      Transparent ki shusui with midnight blue zippers.
      By way of midori x midori.

      ... and the work continues in the KI VORTEX!
      And this then is the crux of it, isn't it Koigrl? I think, given the diversity of Koi genetics (and the fact there is virtually nothing known or researched about them) this is the only way to go about breeding Koi

      Have in your minds-eye what you want your Dream to look like and set a course... use your eyes, your past knowledge, your gut and your heart to select the 'most likely' to get closer to your Dream and set sail into the Ki Vortex!

      You are the Captain of this Ki-Ship and I hope I can continue sharing your journey as scullery-lad! Happy, safe and successful sailing, Koigrl!!
      Last edited by Bunyip; 05-24-2013 at 09:35 PM.

    5. #1825
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      Ya know what Koigrl, I looked at that and went - Hu? What?! It's only a flock spawn if you allow it to be!!! If you use one selected female and one selected male, then it isn't flock spawn! BUT, then the penny dropped!! hahaha! You are right!! I think you are a genius!


      And this then is the crux of it, isn't it Koigrl? I think, given the diversity of Koi genetics (and the fact there is virtually nothing known or researched about them) this is the only way to go about breeding Koi

      Have in your minds-eye what you want your Dream to look like and set a course... use your eyes, your past knowledge, your gut and your heart to select the 'most likely' to get closer to your Dream and set sail into the Ki Vortex!

      You are the Captain of this Ki-Ship and I hope I can continue sharing your journey as scullery-lad! Happy, safe and successful sailing, Koigrl!!
      LOL.
      i loved your post, bunyip.
      First things get more complex -- and then, more simple !!!
      just fix your eye on what you want and then sail by that star!
      still laffin at that penny dropping.

      I am looking now for hikarigoi pictures.
      And I am teeing up a "dog show."
      my fuglys from this spawn also some love.

      all the best!




      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    6. #1826
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      hikarigoi in the mix ???

      Why? all these fish have shusui mamas.

      I took a small handful kikusui out of the pond last october and they are in the learning curve pond. But these guys wiggled out of the net.
      Attached Images Attached Images       



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    7. #1827
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      Is Kin Kikokuryu in the first pic?

      Does your Ki Shusui pattern grow or change Max?

    8. #1828
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      that first pic is a Gin sui blue and silver white ,due to Hariwaki platnum Ogon in the mix with shusui egg fish ,look at the eye black top ,with gold =Konjo Asagi/shusui and gold -Ogon /hariwake .
      Also Max your doing it your way and as I said nature will do the culling long before they even hatch so weak fish are out of the mix ,so with the results so far you only need to add fish at certain stages and crop and select at the right time and this for you is october 1,so things are managed well as its all down to fish management of the ponds and I see your doing fine and the results are very good infacy brilliant and they have fantastic colours and still will change later down the line and its great to see it all done in a natural setting !.
      And Im your biggest fan and must say your getting it right you only have to see the fish say it all and as Dan says Midori goi are the king pin fish here as without its genes from Asagi and Yamabuki Ogon we would not have '' Ki shusui '' in the first place so keep what your doing and keep that flag flying high !.

    9. #1829
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      Yes Max, you have awesome Ki Shusui.. i wonder how many ki shusui you got from your first batch? And couldnt wait till your next cull

    10. #1830
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      gin sui blue and silver

      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      that first pic is a Gin sui blue and silver white ,due to Hariwaki platnum Ogon in the mix with shusui egg fish ,look at the eye black top ,with gold =Konjo Asagi/shusui and gold -Ogon /hariwake .
      Also Max your doing it your way and as I said nature will do the culling long before they even hatch so weak fish are out of the mix ,so with the results so far you only need to add fish at certain stages and crop and select at the right time and this for you is october 1,so things are managed well as its all down to fish management of the ponds and I see your doing fine and the results are very good infacy brilliant and they have fantastic colours and still will change later down the line and its great to see it all done in a natural setting !.
      And Im your biggest fan and must say your getting it right you only have to see the fish say it all and as Dan says Midori goi are the king pin fish here as without its genes from Asagi and Yamabuki Ogon we would not have '' Ki shusui '' in the first place so keep what your doing and keep that flag flying high !.
      wayne, thanks for your encouragement and your interpretation of these fish. i've always been an intuitive learner. i just don't have the attention span to educate myself by reading so you are really giving me the off the books, study hall lessons, and i appreciate it. :yahoo:

      that gin sui has always been a good looker and

      DAVO, to your question about the fish changing, this is one that has. Not the pattern, but this guy was white with gold pattern. the white turned blue. the yellow turned white.
      he is a smart-looking fish, right?
      very handsome. will he change again? we shall see!

      DAVO,
      I don't see the patterns changing.
      I watch these fishies like crazy and i see nothing like that.
      do you expect them to change?
      here's where i see change, and not for the better.
      we have the color brown.
      In the time between april 20 and may 2, the brown crept into some of the fish. especially along the dorsal ridge and behind the gill plate. Many of them, and it looked remarkable after not seeing them for two weeks -- seemed darker entirely.

      also have some fish that had a yellow pattern and the yellow went brown.
      i found one. picture number 5
      he is swimming up, in profile, blue fish with yellow/brown markings.
      Now I have found a picture of that fish taken four days ago.
      it is the last picture.
      i don't think this is a good change.


      I have also shown another of these fish that used to have yellow markings spilling over his forehead and now they are brown..

      i have also included a midori with the brown dorsal ridge. he is typical of a lot of the midori now.
      luckily i have 265 fish in the pond and by october, at 1.5 years, we may have more of an idea who is holding their colors for selection into the final 24~!


      DAVO, i think i've got 5 or 6 ki shusui.
      everything else is midori.

      the ki shusui, imho, are the blue koi with yellow cheeks. Some have yellow underbelly and some have markings on the head or flank.

      A blue shusui with yellow markings == all it can be is ki shusui. Right?
      there is no green on these few, none at all.

      i would say they are not the most striking of fish, but possibly the best brood stock. to be discussed.

      the blue is very very clean.
      one or two of these have nude dorsal scales :) not ideal.
      one of them has the most stunning blue rack of dorsal scales from top to tail. But, he's getting a little smudgy or dark on his face. he's pictured.

      and another couple have the modest blue dorsal scales on clean bodies with ki markings that you wouldn't kick out of bed.

      one -- WAYNE -- has a yellow tancho.
      not like the pale transparent tancho we saw in the previous hatch, but a strong painted tancho, and that's the only mark of any kind on this blue fish.


      I've hunted up some pictures.
      This requires some hunting as i take about 500 pictures every day!

      the next to the last picture are some midori with blue zips. they are going pretty yellow.
      i even think some would call them ki shusui.
      I can't call them ki shusui with those solid yellow faces, so if they go yellow, i'm calling them ayawakaba -- or maybe we'll have a new name for them by then. but definitely going yellow from green.

      Bottom line.
      patterns aren't changing noticeably, but the colors are getting darker.

      bye for now ki buds!
      :wave:
      Attached Images Attached Images                
      Last edited by Koigrl; 05-26-2013 at 07:48 PM. Reason: adding a photo



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    11. #1831
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      Those are striking Max.. i like the one wearing hat on thr second picture

      I should name him HansamuieroHatto which means "the handsome in yellow hat"

    12. #1832
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      hikarigoi in the mix ???
      Why? all these fish have shusui mamas.
      Koigrl, are you confused as to why you have hikarigoi babies?

      If so, then I'm confused... Didn't you use 'Ogon' males? Am I missing something? lol
      Last edited by Bunyip; 05-26-2013 at 07:48 PM.

    13. #1833
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      Quote Originally Posted by dalozt View Post
      Those are striking Max.. i like the one wearing hat on thr second picture

      I should name him HansamuieroHatto which means "the handsome in yellow hat"

      LOL, Davo,
      he needs a much shorter name!!
      Wayne, wake up, need some take from you on sky blue ki shusui, some without any descernible dorsal scales.

      Also, if you think my fish in the next to last picture are turning yellow!

      Also, now that everyone is insisting that both of my ogons are metallic, why do i see so little metallic in this spawn.

      Of 305 fish that survived the spawn, 15 of them are kikusui, ginsui, or orange ogon.
      why isn't more metal showing up?
      Last edited by Koigrl; 05-26-2013 at 08:02 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    14. #1834
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      Koigrl, are you confused as to why you have hikarigoi babies?

      If so, then I'm confused... Didn't you use 'Ogon' males? Am I missing something? lol
      bunyip,
      yes, but understand, i've just been told that all ogons are metallic, and i was not of this opinion. i don't believe that one of my two ogons was metallic. but, there you go.
      so here's the question.
      if those ogons are metallic,
      why am i not seeing kinsui in the spawn? why not?
      this is one of those logic questions and I never took logic!!!
      but i'm trying to figure it out.
      but two ogons.
      number one i maintain is not metallic
      number two, i reluctantly admit is metallic.
      so that would lead me to believe the hikarigoi are product of metallic ogon and shusui.

      now tell me that my yellow fish in next to last picture above are metallic ki shusui.
      tell me gently.
      because otherwise you may hear the gun go off.
      seriously, do you see metallic genes showing up in anything but the hikarigoi.
      That's a real question!
      For anyone!
      Attached Images Attached Images   
      Last edited by Koigrl; 05-26-2013 at 08:04 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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      K-POTY 2013

    15. #1835
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      bunyip,
      yes, but understand, i've just been told that all ogons are metallic, and i was not of this opinion. i don't believe that one of my two ogons was metallic.
      The thing is Koigrl, that if your Ogon isn't metallic, then it isn't an Ogon Ogon's, by definition are metallic.


      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      so here's the question.
      if those ogons are metallic,
      why am i not seeing kinsui in the spawn? why not?
      Well, maybe you are...
      Kinsui - Metallic Shusui with gold luster ...
      Maybe this is the 'brown' you are seeing (the 'gold' might be looking 'brown'?)

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      this is one of those logic questions and I never took logic!!!
      but i'm trying to figure it out.
      but two ogons.
      number one i maintain is not metallic
      number two, i reluctantly admit is metallic.
      so that would lead me to believe the hikarigoi are product of metallic ogon and shusui.
      Hikarigoi is just another name for Hariwake -and both mean metallic Koi... so yes, it is entirely possible that the product of metallic ogon and shusui would produce 'hari' (metalic) Koi.

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      now tell me that my yellow fish in next to last picture above are metallic ki shusui. tell me gently. because otherwise you may hear the gun go off.
      Fortunately I can't tell from the pic

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      seriously, do you see metallic genes showing up in anything but the hikarigoi.
      That's a real question! For anyone!
      The thing is, you might not see it but it can still be there...(the phenotype might make it look like one thing, but the genotype makes it something else) Or, there might be one single metallic scale that you might not notice... or mistake for something else. It may not show up until you do your next cross... or even the one after that.

      That's why, when people breed Koi without any sign of ginrin... some of the the offspring can be ginrin! What you see, isn't always what you have and certainly not always what you get.

      Whatever you do, don't lose heart! This is nothing new in breeding any animal Koigrl! This is what makes breeding (and in your case breeding for something 'new') so difficult and challenging! If it was easy, everyone would be doing it - and it wouldn't have taken the Japanese so long to produce just 'nice' Gosanke!

      And now, just so that I (and others) are very clear... is it correct to say that you do not want metallic Ki Shusui (yellow shusui) as your 'end' product?
      Last edited by Bunyip; 05-26-2013 at 08:55 PM.

    16. #1836
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      The thing is Koigrl, that if your Ogon isn't metallic, then it isn't an Ogon Ogon's, by definition are metallic.

      Correct.
      I do NOT want metallic ki shusui.

      I will not slay them, but i will be disheartened. and who knows, in time, i may come to love them.






      Well, maybe you are...


      Maybe this is the 'brown' you are seeing (the 'gold' might be looking 'brown'?)



      Hikarigoi is just another name for Hariwake -and both mean metallic Koi... so yes, it is entirely possible that the product of metallic ogon and shusui would produce 'hari' (metalic) Koi.



      Fortunately I can't tell from the pic



      The thing is, you might not see it but it can still be there...(the phenotype might make it look like one thing, but the genotype makes it something else) Or, there might be one single metallic scale that you might not notice... or mistake for something else. It may not show up until you do your next cross... or even the one after that.

      That's why, when people breed Koi without any sign of ginrin... some of the the offspring can be ginrin! What you see, isn't always what you have and certainly not always what you get.

      Whatever you do, don't lose heart! This is nothing new in breeding any animal Koigrl! This is what makes breeding (and in your case breeding for something 'new') so difficult and challenging! If it was easy, everyone would be doing it - and it wouldn't have taken the Japanese so long to produce just 'nice' Gosanke!

      And now, just so that I (and others) are very clear... is it correct to say that you do not want metallic Ki Shusui (yellow shusui) as your 'end' product?
      correct, bunyip

      I DO NOT WANT METALLIC ki shusui.
      If they are metallic, they may be wonderful something else, but they will not be shusui.

      the last time i held these fish in my hands was last october. i took big clear naked pictures out of the water and in, and i did not pick up metallic sheen. true, the metallic gene could be in hiding -- but why?
      if you cross a full-blooded metallic ogon with a shusui, that metallic is a 50% partner. surely it should show up in a fairly decent part of the population, no?

      I'll find the posts where i took close ups of these fish and post a link.
      thanks for helping here, bunyip.
      :bang:



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    17. #1837
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      ATT: gold and silver miners
      Here's the link to the F1 midorigoi when they were pulled last October.
      If you're interested in the current discussion of whether or not these fish are metallic (if not -- don't blame you!) pls. look at the fish, especially the monotone yellow. I do not see hikari. I do see ginrin on the dorsals of some. which is i guess the only place it would show up on doitsu. ;x
      i'm learning more every day.

      Davo, you can see the patterns and how they compare with today. look for yellow rainbow and inazuma.

      one and all!

      click below.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...twist-)/page71



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    18. #1838
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      correct, bunyip

      I DO NOT WANT METALLIC ki shusui.
      If they are metallic, they may be wonderful something else, but they will not be shusui.
      Right! All clear!

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      the last time i held these fish in my hands was last october. i took big clear naked pictures out of the water and in, and i did not pick up metallic sheen. true, the metallic gene could be in hiding -- but why?
      Recessive gene?

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      if you cross a full-blooded metallic ogon with a shusui, that metallic is a 50% partner. surely it should show up in a fairly decent part of the population, no?
      No, not quite that simple It may show (be visible) in 0% all the way through to 100% of the off-spring (and some of them may have such a limited amount of visible metallic as to go unnoticed.

      And, if the 'metallic' gene is recessive (and I'm not sure if it is a dominant or recessive gene) then a 'full blood metallic ogon' may not actually produce any visible metallic off-spring... but the offspring will all likely be carrying it and it will possibly show up in F1 x F1, then F2 x F2 breeding etc.

      There is a 'theory' that if you breed a male 'metallic' and a female 'non-metallic' then 'in theory' you 'won't' produce metallic... but it is a theory and genetics says that the offspring will carry it (this relates to some 'features' being carried only on the X gene(s) (Females are XX and males are XY). Also, all males have a X gene (well, except that some rare Koi males have been found to have YY sex chromosomes (and consequently can only produce male off-spring!! Complicated much?! lol) ... if the 'metallic' is carried on the 'X' gene, then the males (XY not YY lol) will have it, even if they don't show it.

      And the thing is, your apparently non-metallic shusui could have 'metallic' in her past - possibly making her a carrier of 'metallic' (which would increase the chances of metallic off-spring).

      This is of course, all speculation because no one knows for sure! <.......... I can't stress this enough!!

      And unfortunately, to try to boil it down to say just 'recessive and dominant' genes is just not viable - it is far more complicated than that!

      If the horse racing industry has virtually no genetic information within their highly funded, very expensive hobby (try multi-billions of dollars throughout the industry), there is sod-all chance that there will be any huge leaps and bounds within the Koi hobby any time soon!

      Honestly Koigrl, if you don't want metallic then try very, very hard not to use something that has even the remotest possibility of having it in them, or their past.

      Some of the best advice I can give you, has been said by others far smarter than me!
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-koi-offspring : The only way to figure out what a gene does is to select for it and breed it out over generations. Then study and test the offspring.
      Last edited by Bunyip; 05-27-2013 at 05:39 AM. Reason: Added the YY twist ;)

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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      ATT...I do not see hikari. ...


      Maybe put those pics up in the 'Please Judge this Koi' Forum and see if others think they look metallic or not?

    20. #1840
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post


      Maybe put those pics up in the 'Please Judge this Koi' Forum and see if others think they look metallic or not?
      did you look?



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