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  • Page 232 of 232 FirstFirst ... 132222229230231232
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    Thread: ki shusui project with a twist :)

    1. #4621
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Ok well y'all gotta figure this out because inquiring minds need to know...
      Hope, I went from zero to mud ponds. I don't have a scientific bent and didn't think i could cope with the chemistry and filtration and what-all in a constructed pond plus i already had a spring-fed mud pond in the front yard as a garden feature. I assumed that the mud would take care of the kids, but it really didn't. i still had to learn the ropes. The learning curve pond was overstocked, i fed too much, too often, i had a mix of tribes in there, goldfish, koi, bull heads. it was kind of a living bouillabaisse. Took years to clean up my mistakes and over-enthusiasm. Fish got ulcers and died. Some jumped. Bird predated. Goldfish and koi fell in love and made disgusting looking offspring and mink took advantage and came up from the brook and through the outflow pipes. i mean how could they resist?

      Flash forward a couple of years.
      No goldfish, no bullheads (they were not killed). The koi still got ulcers and were still a random bunch of shiny objects from upstate importer of cases of koi from japan. I started water-testing. Gah. I put in a brand new pond in the field and started over, about when i joined this forum, found friends and mentors. I was besotted with shusui by then and figured i might live long enough to breed ki shusui if i tried really hard. I put in two wells and another pond. I ran air from the little barn, now pump house. i put in electric panel called "essential load" which ran the air and water off solar panels even if the grid went down. And i started using Aquamedzyme to get my fish through the "aeronoma (sp) alley" when the bacterium are rarin' to go and the fish weren't yet able to fight them off. I still struggled with ammonia. And one year i tried to keep the water warm with a swimming pool cover -- the gas the fish emitted collected under the bubble wrap and i lost my first born flock-spawned ki shusui to dropsy -- or something like it.

      I had a number of mentors on this site, a couple I could write to day or night, Bless them! They lived in different time zones and hemispheres. And others, more local who jumped in to save me. Cindy took a phone call when one of my basement shusui scraped off a piece of sushi 5" x 1" by 1/2" deep and saved Stella over the phone. Stella lives and thrives in the Big Pond 9 years later. My new friends at Aquamedzyme (sold the business since) gave me the wholesale price on 25 lb buckets of the stuff. I fed the fish Blackwater Creek Gold-N and wheat germ food in cold weather.

      One day I called a fish seller who was located about 45 mins from here and said, "I have a million questions." That was John Clark of Northeastern Aquatics. He put the phone down on his desk, went out to his establishment and did some fish work, and when he came back, I was winded, but done. He and I worked out a great deal over time and it was win/win. He would seine the ponds -- I'm what's called a senior citizen! -- and take away my culls which he then sells to weekenders, other ppl with mud ponds and to outlets that sell koi. My friend, John, makes this project possible because between us, we keep the fish load down. He is the only person in real life who will talk to me about koi. LOL. I mean no one else irl cares at all.

      All said, I don't use man-made filters. Possibly all the pond plant growth is good for fish. My air and flow-through water are on 24/365. My 48 panel solar array helps with the electricity bill. All of the ponds are netted and outflow pipes have perforated caps which we monitor to make sure the wily mink haven't removed them. And. I don't sell fish or anything else so i can just be a backyard breeder hobbyist working to stabilize the "elusive ki shusui" so I can breed them on demand.

      What was the question?
      Oh. My fish are very healthy. I attribute this in part to the Aquamedzyme, and also to fresh water, constant air, geothermal heat from the ground itself and that's what gets them through the winter. They actually grow!
      I don't know if this answers anything for you == but this is how I did it.
      If you have any interest in seeing how ki shusui developed, i noted and photographed the project from first egg to last pull -- right here.
      if you want to see the condensed version: www.kishusui.com

      Wishing you much luck with your journey, Hope.
      It will be one of a kind so do take pictures.
      all the best!
      Last edited by Koigrl; 1 Week Ago at 09:37 AM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    2. #4622
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      Where's the I made a great friend that day.

    3. #4623
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      Here ya' go.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    4. #4624
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      Wow, Max, I had no idea that you got into ponding about the same time as me. You have done, learned and shared so much from your "Learning Curve". We all have learned from your experiences. Way to go! Thank you for taking us along for the ride.

      proudly Canadian

    5. #4625
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      Thanks, Marg,
      Keeping watch on the longfins. still lookin good.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    6. #4626
      Hope J is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Hope, I went from zero to mud ponds. I don't have a scientific bent and didn't think i could cope with the chemistry and filtration and what-all in a constructed pond plus i already had a spring-fed mud pond in the front yard as a garden feature. I assumed that the mud would take care of the kids, but it really didn't. i still had to learn the ropes. The learning curve pond was overstocked, i fed too much, too often, i had a mix of tribes in there, goldfish, koi, bull heads. it was kind of a living bouillabaisse. Took years to clean up my mistakes and over-enthusiasm. Fish got ulcers and died. Some jumped. Bird predated. Goldfish and koi fell in love and made disgusting looking offspring and mink took advantage and came up from the brook and through the outflow pipes. i mean how could they resist?

      Flash forward a couple of years.
      No goldfish, no bullheads (they were not killed). The koi still got ulcers and were still a random bunch of shiny objects from upstate importer of cases of koi from japan. I started water-testing. Gah. I put in a brand new pond in the field and started over, about when i joined this forum, found friends and mentors. I was besotted with shusui by then and figured i might live long enough to breed ki shusui if i tried really hard. I put in two wells and another pond. I ran air from the little barn, now pump house. i put in electric panel called "essential load" which ran the air and water off solar panels even if the grid went down. And i started using Aquamedzyme to get my fish through the "aeronoma (sp) alley" when the bacterium are rarin' to go and the fish weren't yet able to fight them off. I still struggled with ammonia. And one year i tried to keep the water warm with a swimming pool cover -- the gas the fish emitted collected under the bubble wrap and i lost my first born flock-spawned ki shusui to dropsy -- or something like it.

      I had a number of mentors on this site, a couple I could write to day or night, Bless them! They lived in different time zones and hemispheres. And others, more local who jumped in to save me. Cindy took a phone call when one of my basement shusui scraped off a piece of sushi 5" x 1" by 1/2" deep and saved Stella over the phone. Stella lives and thrives in the Big Pond 9 years later. My new friends at Aquamedzyme (sold the business since) gave me the wholesale price on 25 lb buckets of the stuff. I fed the fish Blackwater Creek Gold-N and wheat germ food in cold weather.

      One day I called a fish seller who was located about 45 mins from here and said, "I have a million questions." That was John Clark of Northeastern Aquatics. He put the phone down on his desk, went out to his establishment and did some fish work, and when he came back, I was winded, but done. He and I worked out a great deal over time and it was win/win. He would seine the ponds -- I'm what's called a senior citizen! -- and take away my culls which he then sells to weekenders, other ppl with mud ponds and to outlets that sell koi. My friend, John, makes this project possible because between us, we keep the fish load down. He is the only person in real life who will talk to me about koi. LOL. I mean no one else irl cares at all.

      All said, I don't use man-made filters. Possibly all the pond plant growth is good for fish. My air and flow-through water are on 24/365. My 48 panel solar array helps with the electricity bill. All of the ponds are netted and outflow pipes have perforated caps which we monitor to make sure the wily mink haven't removed them. And. I don't sell fish or anything else so i can just be a backyard breeder hobbyist working to stabilize the "elusive ki shusui" so I can breed them on demand.

      What was the question?
      Oh. My fish are very healthy. I attribute this in part to the Aquamedzyme, and also to fresh water, constant air, geothermal heat from the ground itself and that's what gets them through the winter. They actually grow!
      I don't know if this answers anything for you == but this is how I did it.
      If you have any interest in seeing how ki shusui developed, i noted and photographed the project from first egg to last pull -- right here.
      if you want to see the condensed version: www.kishusui.com

      Wishing you much luck with your journey, Hope.
      It will be one of a kind so do take pictures.
      all the best!
      Wow! That's incredible!!! I know having a natural spring is probably a Koikeeping Godsend

      I should have been more specific, I'm still not good at the "reply with quote" feature for some reason so it missed the part I wanted it to include from Abuchi about the Irises and the Japanese mud ponds because I think he's correct in thinking the Irises are having a positive effect on the smutting of heads and totally fascinated by it I think different pond plants will actually do different beneficial things to water quality above and beyond the removal of the normal stuff like Ammonia, Nitrates etc. but I have no proof, just a theory. Your thread is like drugs to a druggie for me (no judgment to addicts- just a comparison of the addiction I have to learning). I am living vicariously thru you ATM and learning everything I possibly can in preparation for the beginning of my Purple Koi Journey which is probably doomed to fail, but go big or go home right?

    7. #4627
      Hope J is online now Senior Member
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      I wanted to add substantially more plants than what I did this year but I had to be stingy because I have a permaculture garden that I use the pond water to nourish and so it was a balancing act in the beginning but the Koi are MUCH bigger now and it's safe and beneficial to add more plants this Spring. The maximum number of new Koi for 2020 is 6 tosai and I still have to put up my SuperMax Pond to separate some of the fish and load because Gen Pop pond is waaaay overstocked now that everyone is bigger. Both ponds are getting as many Iris as I can get my hands on, I don't think it's going to take too much away from the garden so it should be a win/win

    8. #4628
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      I wanted to add substantially more plants than what I did this year but I had to be stingy because I have a permaculture garden that I use the pond water to nourish and so it was a balancing act in the beginning but the Koi are MUCH bigger now and it's safe and beneficial to add more plants this Spring. The maximum number of new Koi for 2020 is 6 tosai and I still have to put up my SuperMax Pond to separate some of the fish and load because Gen Pop pond is waaaay overstocked now that everyone is bigger. Both ponds are getting as many Iris as I can get my hands on, I don't think it's going to take too much away from the garden so it should be a win/win
      Hope, do you have a thread? sorry to ask this late in the day, but i'd like to see your pond. Purple koi. wow.
      i want to see your project thread. if you don't have one, time to start it. if you have it, pls post the link.
      max



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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      K-POTY 2013

    9. #4629
      Hope J is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Hope, do you have a thread? sorry to ask this late in the day, but i'd like to see your pond. Purple koi. wow.
      i want to see your project thread. if you don't have one, time to start it. if you have it, pls post the link.
      max
      I don't have one yet but I can gather my thoughts, organize them a little better and start one

      Has anyone ever created a purple Koi?

    10. #4630
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      Max: Thanks for that summary of 10 plus years, quite a journey. Some of us went from small aquariums to big aquariums to small ponds to big ponds. You went straight to sea-world!

      Hope: The only true purple marking I've ever seen on a koi turned out to be a bruise or something that went away. I know some say purple is not possible in koi. I don't know. Certain types of marine fish (royal gramma, purple tang) and freshwater cichlids have purple coloration.

    11. #4631
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      I don't have one yet but I can gather my thoughts, organize them a little better and start one

      Has anyone ever created a purple Koi?
      Hope, I found a book called Live Jewels about five years ago and i was a bit giddy when I found that before I was ordering fish online to make ki shusui, there had been a Japanese breeder in the mid-sixties, Mr. Yashioka. Someone may weigh in with more info than I have. The book is written in Japanese and English with lots of photos of fish we know now by same or slightly different names, but looks to me like Mr. Yashioka was a trail blazer. And also looks to me like he crossed Shusui with a Yellow Yamabuki Ogon and came up with a "green carp" which was quite revered, what is now called Midori.

      About the fish he called "purple". or "bluish-purple" I would call this color a French blue -- and it had not been seen before!!


      Here's the description in the book:

      Later, in 1965 , Mr. Yoshioka produced a very beautiful carp of the colour of bluish purple by crossing a female carp of the green variety with a "shusui" variety. They are quite different from the carp of the existing "shusui" variety. They present an appearance reminding us of light purple clouds floating on the clear blue sky and this is why Mr. Sukeo Yamaguchi, President of the Uotsu City Carp Lovers Association, christened the variety "Zuiun", (auspicious clouds.)


      There are photos of others that Mr. Yoshioka produced that are similar to these and I'll post them after I feed my hordes.
      But a few things occur to me.

      1. Shusui x green carp was the formula for Zuiun.

      2. There was no mention of the "ki" coloration on this variety, yet there it is!

      3. No mention of zippers being good or bad, half or full, so a full, even, double row of dorsal scales we desire in doitsu is another refinement we like since 1965.

      4. The smudge on the forehead. I am culling against that mark and i do not have pictures of of Mr. Yoskioka's Zuiun all grown up. Are those little spots on the face of the central fish the "shimis" mentioned a few pages back? If so, they appeared in fish bred and raised in Japan.

      5. When I found this book, I was thunderstruck that I was following in Mr. Yoshioka's footsteps without knowing. And that he was working with fish not nearly as refined as the ones we see and have now and still, "auspicious clouds" are lovely.

      More in a little bit. It's getting dark here!

      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by Koigrl; 1 Week Ago at 05:53 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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      K-POTY 2013

    12. #4632
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      zuiun and ki shusui cont'd

      My obsession, cont'd.
      Hope while feeding and thinking about "the color purple" i remembered that the blue color is "sumi" or black coming up through the layers of skin. I am at the limits of my knowledge of rising sumi.

      Today's ki shusui is "yellow shusui.' And i have been thinking of this variety that way. It should have ki bands on the sides, can be of asagi style where the ki comes up from the belly and stops at the lateral line, the ground color should be pale blue or white -- I prefer white as the yellow stands out more as yellow and when overlaid over blue appears green.

      Back to rising sumi.
      Purple would be sumi darkly coloring blue skin. I think.
      I would think purple koi would still be based on shusui, -- but might be something else altogether.

      Here's my tub of "ki shusui" shot in hot light, with a camera not attuned to subtleties.
      With the F2 offspring are 2 larger F1 k shusui, the mothers of the fish in the tub. The one with ki on her head, Beyonce, is starting to smudge a bit around her dorsal line. The other, Lyra, has no smudging yet. And not much ki. but you can see it around her pecs and tail and cheeks.
      Attached Images Attached Images   



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    13. #4633
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      Mr. Yoshioka produced "Raigo" red spots on purple ground in 1966. And then, En'yu.

      Here's the description of "Raigo" bred 54 years ago... and I think not bred on purpose since.

      "By crossing a carp of green colour with one that has red spots on the purple ground, Mr. Yoshioka produced in 1966, a variety with red spots on the general tone of reddish purple. This was named "Raigo" as it makes us think of the colour of the sky at dawn as seen from the top of high mountain."



      Love these names.

      and now, this is the last I have of Mr. Yoshioka's purple fish, "En'yu"

      " ... It is the crossbreeding of the male adult carp of "Zuiun" with one changed into bluish purple color through mutation. It's color is fascinating indeed. The master penman, Mr. Otei Kaneko, the winner of the Art Academy Prize in June, 1967 extolled the breeder's merits by christening the two new varieties, Raigo and En'yu (elegant swimmers) respectively.



      Is this the color you are envisioning, Hope?

      Attached Images Attached Images   



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    14. #4634
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Max: Thanks for that summary of 10 plus years, quite a journey. Some of us went from small aquariums to big aquariums to small ponds to big ponds. You went straight to sea-world!

      Hope: The only true purple marking I've ever seen on a koi turned out to be a bruise or something that went away. I know some say purple is not possible in koi. I don't know. Certain types of marine fish (royal gramma, purple tang) and freshwater cichlids have purple coloration.
      Matt: LOL on seaworld!!
      I never thought of it that way.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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      K-POTY 2013

    15. #4635
      Hope J is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Here's the description of "Raigo" bred 54 years ago... and I think not bred on purpose since.

      "By crossing a carp of green colour with one that has red spots on the purple ground, Mr. Yoshioka produced in 1966, a variety with red spots on the general tone of reddish purple. This was named "Raigo" as it makes us think of the colour of the sky at dawn as seen from the top of high mountain."



      Love these names.

      and now, this is the last I have of Mr. Yoshioka's purple fish, "En'yu"

      " ... It is the crossbreeding of the male adult carp of "Zuiun" with one changed into bluish purple color through mutation. It's color is fascinating indeed. The master penman, Mr. Otei Kaneko, the winner of the Art Academy Prize in June, 1967 extolled the breeder's merits by christening the two new varieties, Raigo and En'yu (elegant swimmers) respectively.



      Is this the color you are envisioning, Hope?

      Thank you! I have to track down a copy of this book as I'm sure it is a Gem to have for the ins and outs that can only be appreciated by a true Koi Kichi with a special eye for the rare and refined!

      Those En'Yu and Raigo are beautiful and would be great to have in my Breeding program as there are a lot of good genes from old varieties ready to go but the purple I am envisioning is different and probably wouldn't be very different from a Solid colored Budo Goromo if such a thing were actually to ever exist. I think the best place to start is a Konjo Asagi x Red Leather Skin Benigoi if I can track some down. I will have to do several controlled breedings between 3 combinations of these (6 total) just to see who is going to throw what in to the gene pool so I can track the phenotypes they pass. I'm toying with the idea of using my little Ikarashisi Asagi but I think it's going to lighten up too quickly to be of any real use. The bluest Asagi theoretically should be the Konjo but I'm not going to skip over a regular Asagi with a lot of potential either I'm so stoked for the pictures and info! I need to get my butt in gear and get a thread up.

    16. #4636
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      Hope, the full name of the book is "Live Jewels" General Survey of Fancy Carp by Masayuki Amano. My friend John reminded me that a writer whose book may still be in print, Herbert Axelrod, picked up the pictures of the fish I mentioned and put them in his book, name I don't know. One tiny thing to know. Females should be four years old before you breed them although they may spawn at three. the idea is at four their eggs are better grade. It takes a while to do this so get ready for the long haul.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    17. #4637
      Hope J is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Hope, the full name of the book is "Live Jewels" General Survey of Fancy Carp by Masayuki Amano. My friend John reminded me that a writer whose book may still be in print, Herbert Axelrod, picked up the pictures of the fish I mentioned and put them in his book, name I don't know. One tiny thing to know. Females should be four years old before you breed them although they may spawn at three. the idea is at four their eggs are better grade. It takes a while to do this so get ready for the long haul.
      Thank you! I can probably track that one down too

      Yeah, I'm on a Tosai budget so I have to buy young and cheap and take my chances on good grow outs. I'm not going to push for extreme growth, my Pond did a good job of that itself so I'm focusing on selecting the most promising Tosai I can find, growing them out good and healthy and hopefully in a few years I'll have a few decent brood stock to choose from. I will still try and spawn some other crapigoi that I have no plans for, just to learn the process and also iron out all the beginner mistakes I will make that will kill Koi. Hopefully by the time my brood stock is ready, I will be too

    18. #4638
      Koigrl's Avatar
      Koigrl is offline Supporting Member ~ WWKC BOD
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      ".... and away we goooooo."
      You've got all winter to get yourself ready, Hope.
      can't wait to see what you do.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

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