PDA

View Full Version : 2009 project on Kohaku breeding.



Super Kindai
05-07-2009, 02:25 PM
We have decided a new combination pair for Kohaku breeding this year....

5/02 (Sat) Set up.

5/03 (Sun) Spawn.

200,000 - 250,000 hatch is expected, due to a size of the female fish, today or tomorrow.

:D:

elduderino
05-07-2009, 04:38 PM
wow, how big is the female??

Super Kindai
05-07-2009, 07:53 PM
wow, how big is the female??

The female is less than 30"..... it's just about 28" - 29" a small fish...:D:

DebbieKSW
05-07-2009, 08:27 PM
looks like things are working so far.
Lovely koi.

Super Kindai
05-10-2009, 09:17 PM
looks like things are working so far.
Lovely koi.
Hi Debbie, it was done well so far, although the hatching rate was not so high as we expected probably because it was first time spawning experience for the female.


three days after hatch. The fry are doubled it's size compare to the first day.

Um, good yellow color.....:D:

Cindy_AL
05-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Those look identical to my fry. So are the yellow colored fry the more desirable? (Im still learning)

Super Kindai
05-11-2009, 01:41 PM
Those look identical to my fry. So are the yellow colored fry the more desirable? (Im still learning)
:yes:...the yellow colored fry are the only ones that turn to be kohaku and aka muji (= red or orange color koi).
we can see some white colored fry in it. these white ones become shiro muji (= white color koi) without any red color...:D:

Carl
05-11-2009, 01:51 PM
Thanks for the pictures and updates, Junichi-san. It will be very interesting to watch their process. :yes:

Cindy_AL
05-11-2009, 01:57 PM
my fry are about 2 1/2 wks old. I have about 300 at this point in 4 different tanks sorted by size. I would estimate about 1/5th are dark colored and all the rest are yellow or white. I have noticed that some of the yellow ones have started getting some darker patches. Is this how the red or orange starts? I purchased my eggs and was told that it would be mixed standard & butterfly. Is there a way to differentiate at this age? Some are longer & slimmer while others are short & broader. Just trying to learn all I can.
Its alot of fun to watch how they change & grow. (but not so much fun doing all of the water changes)

Super Kindai
05-11-2009, 08:01 PM
Thanks for the pictures and updates, Junichi-san. It will be very interesting to watch their process. :yes:
I am glad to hear that you are interested to watch the process, Carl -san.
we will make first culling sometimes in mid June, if the fry grow to a size as scheduled...:D:

DebbieKSW
05-11-2009, 08:22 PM
This is great.
Please keep us up to date..as it is a good leaning epxerience.

Super Kindai
05-11-2009, 08:48 PM
my fry are about 2 1/2 wks old. I have about 300 at this point in 4 different tanks sorted by size. I would estimate about 1/5th are dark colored and all the rest are yellow or white. I have noticed that some of the yellow ones have started getting some darker patches. Is this how the red or orange starts? I purchased my eggs and was told that it would be mixed standard & butterfly. Is there a way to differentiate at this age? Some are longer & slimmer while others are short & broader. Just trying to learn all I can.
Its alot of fun to watch how they change & grow. (but not so much fun doing all of the water changes)
:clap:
Without knowing the parents' variety of your fry, it is very difficult to figure out but according to your description of the fry appearances, possibly Sanke......:rolleyes:
the yellow color itself turns to the red or orange color. then darker patches on the yellow ones probably turn to be black color, sumi.
and the dark colord ones probably mutt. I am not sure though....:D:

Also, I am not a right person to answer because we have never bred butterfly but I think that you will notice a different length of fins between standard and butterfly when the fry grow to one inch or two.


> Its alot of fun to watch how they change & grow. (but not so much fun doing all of the water changes) :yes:.....(:D:)

Cindy_AL
05-11-2009, 08:59 PM
Thanks so much for answering my questions. There is so much to learn. I read everything I can get my hands on about koi & ponds but sometimes you just have to ask someone with experience.

I greatly appreciate your time explaining. :)

Koijazz
05-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Cindy AL how are you doing your water changes? I'm looking for an easy way to do it since my fry pool is close to ground level and the siphon relies on gravity. Presently, I'm bailing tiny buckets of water checking for fry and netting them out.

Flounder
05-12-2009, 03:03 AM
Junichi, did you friend bred them when you were here?

Cindy_AL
05-12-2009, 03:12 AM
I have 2 aquariums in the house and 2 large rubbermaid containers in my garage. (where they all started out in a kiddie pool) I use a 5 gallon bucket and large clear tupperware bowl. I just carefully look for fry as I remove the water with the bowl and dump it into the 5 gal bucket to take outside. (I double check the bucket before I dump it too) I replace the water from the kitchen faucet using the 5 gal bucket so that I can keep the temp as close to the same as in the tanks. The 2 aquariums have heaters but the containers in the garage do not. Its a pain, but I know it has to be done to keep the fry alive.

Super Kindai
05-12-2009, 02:30 PM
This is great.
Please keep us up to date..as it is a good leaning epxerience.
Yes, I will, I can not guarantee whether we could get some good result or not by a combination of those parents kohaku though....... :D:

Super Kindai
05-12-2009, 02:32 PM
Thanks so much for answering my questions. There is so much to learn. I read everything I can get my hands on about koi & ponds but sometimes you just have to ask someone with experience.

I greatly appreciate your time explaining. :)

You are welcome.

Edit : What I meant "Sanke" is "Parent fish" of your fry is/are possibly Sanke.
If it is correct, you will have many variety such as kohaku, aka muji, shiro muji, bekko, unknown mutt like magoi, and few decent looking sanke...:D:

Btw, Let me see your fry picture(s), If you have.....

Super Kindai
05-12-2009, 02:36 PM
Junichi, did you friend bred them when you were here?
Ryan, YES. all staff was prepared, parental candidates were being selected and were brought to the breeding site. then, my friend was just waiting for a good timing......temperature/weather- wise.

Let me know how many thousand fry do you want me to send? :eek1: :D:

Flounder
05-12-2009, 03:01 PM
Send me only the tategoi please.

rainblood
05-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Let me know how many thousand fry do you want me to send? :eek1: :D:

I'll take a thousand or two :yes: :D:

rainblood
05-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Mosquito larvae don't attack the fry?

drEAMER
05-12-2009, 05:19 PM
i take a few thousand too hihihihihihiihih....... the parent look good you gonna have beautiful baby

Cindy_AL
05-12-2009, 08:26 PM
You are welcome.

Edit : What I meant "Sanke" is "Parent fish" of your fry is/are possibly Sanke.
If it is correct, you will have many variety such as kohaku, aka muji, shiro muji, bekko, unknown mutt like magoi, and few decent looking sanke...:D:

Btw, Let me see your fry picture(s), If you have.....

I would love to share some pictures of my fry. :D:


I didnt want to hi-jack your thread so I started a new one....

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1603840&posted=1#post1603840

Super Kindai
05-13-2009, 06:35 PM
I'll take a thousand or two :yes: :D:
:D: Instead of the fry, I may be able to send you "eggs" of our next breeding, most likely showa/Uturi though, a month or two later, If you are serious.

Super Kindai
05-13-2009, 06:40 PM
Mosquito larvae don't attack the fry?
:no: Mosquito larvae don't attack the fry.
Instead, new born tiny larvae is good food for the fry and also matured size larvae is eaten by the fry soon or later.:D:

Super Kindai
05-13-2009, 06:44 PM
i take a few thousand too hihihihihihiihih....... the parent look good you gonna have beautiful baby
the parent are good....:rolleyes: but we don't know yet if the offspring are...:eek1:

Super Kindai
05-13-2009, 06:45 PM
I would love to share some pictures of my fry. :D:


I didnt want to hi-jack your thread so I started a new one....

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1603840&posted=1#post1603840
:yahoo:

Super Kindai
05-13-2009, 06:49 PM
Send me only the tategoi please.
you have to wait at least a year or forever........:D:

rainblood
05-14-2009, 11:33 AM
:D: Instead of the fry, I may be able to send you "eggs" of our next breeding, most likely showa/Uturi though, a month or two later, If you are serious.

:yes:

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Hirogoi
05-14-2009, 06:29 PM
If I pay you shipping and however much you might want for them could I get in on some eggs too?

rainblood
05-14-2009, 07:20 PM
I smell a Super Kindai growout :yes:

Hirogoi
05-16-2009, 02:42 PM
That would be cool. Considering our Ochiba growout...

Midorigoi
05-17-2009, 02:14 PM
:D: Instead of the fry, I may be able to send you "eggs" of our next breeding, most likely showa/Uturi though, a month or two later, If you are serious.

I'm also interested in some eggs! :yes::yes::yes:

jonathan
05-17-2009, 04:25 PM
Wish you luck on the fry :yes:

rainblood
05-17-2009, 06:56 PM
I think this thread is going in a different direction than SK was intending...

Super Kindai
05-17-2009, 08:15 PM
Hi, Hirogoi and Midorigoi.

:eek1:
Eggs are free. We will use Water Hyacinth for spawning this year. So, I will be able to send it with eggs either by priority or overnight small package.... freight collect? C.O.D shipping charge only? ....something like that way.:D:

jonathan
05-17-2009, 08:23 PM
Lucky duck yall are. If I had room id gladly take some. :yes:

Super Kindai
05-17-2009, 08:26 PM
Wish you luck on the fry :yes:
Hi, So far so good, the fry have cleared a critical period of the first 10 days.:yes:..... but there are already many candidates of tobies that is not so good.......:D:

jonathan
05-17-2009, 08:28 PM
A wise man in texas once told me tobie grow faster and can even finish faster then quality koi :yes: but after that its all down hill :no:

Super Kindai
05-17-2009, 08:51 PM
A wise man in texas once told me tobie grow faster and can even finish faster then quality koi :yes: but after that its all down hill :no:
:yes:
Wise men in Japan says that an insufficient food environment produces tobie. In order to avoid many tobies, pro breeders release only about 20,000 - 30,000 fry per quarter acre size mud/field pond in general.....:D:

Super Kindai
05-17-2009, 08:55 PM
I think this thread is going in a different direction than SK was intending...
:eek1:...............:D:

Hirogoi
05-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Could we pay you shipping now, so they could be sent right when it happens?

Cindy_AL
05-18-2009, 11:03 AM
:yes:
Wise men in Japan says that an insufficient food environment produces tobie. In order to avoid many tobies, pro breeders release only about 20,000 - 30,000 fry per quarter acre size mud/field pond in general.....:D:


Im still trying to fully understand the "tobie" factor...

If I separate one of my smallest fry from the others and put it in an aquarium alone, would it grow at a faster rate?

Midorigoi
05-18-2009, 02:08 PM
Hi, So far so good, the fry have cleared a critical period of the first 10 days.:yes:..... but there are already many candidates of tobies that is not so good.......:D:
There are sooo many little babies! It will be fun to watch them grow :yes: keep us posted with lots of pictures. :clap:




Hi, Hirogoi and Midorigoi.

:eek1:
Eggs are free. We will use Water Hyacinth for spawning this year. So, I will be able to send it with eggs either by priority or overnight small package.... freight collect? C.O.D shipping charge only? ....something like that way.:D:

I can only do C.O.D. method of payment, pm me further info on what the price will be/details/etc :yes: I'm excited :D:

rainblood
05-18-2009, 04:08 PM
:eek1:...............:D:

But...
If you are entertaining the notion.... I have dibbs :D:

Super Kindai
05-19-2009, 01:35 AM
Could we pay you shipping now, so they could be sent right when it happens?
:eek1:I don't have any idea shipping cost though. I will let you know so don't worry....:yes:

Super Kindai
05-19-2009, 01:40 AM
There are sooo many little babies! It will be fun to watch them grow :yes: keep us posted with lots of pictures. :clap:

I can only do C.O.D. method of payment, pm me further info on what the price will be/details/etc :yes: I'm excited :D:

When the fry reach to 1.5 inches or so, then you can identify pattern.... untill then it will not be so interesting since the fry just grow gradually.:D: I will let you know when we start preparing next breeding.:yes:

Super Kindai
05-19-2009, 01:43 AM
But...
If you are entertaining the notion.... I have dibbs :D:
We are just looking for our dream koi by breeding ourselves.:D:.....So, there is no entertaining the notion but yes, I will keep your portion. :yes:

Super Kindai
05-19-2009, 01:46 AM
Im still trying to fully understand the "tobie" factor...

If I separate one of my smallest fry from the others and put it in an aquarium alone, would it grow at a faster rate?
Japanese breeders make every effort to prevent emergence of tobies during 30 - 40 days, until first culling of (+/-) 1.5 - 2.0 inches size, by preparing the environment for fry (= abundant natural food such as daphnia) prior to spawn. and then according to a pond size, restrict the numbers of fry per pond.

I have never raised one fry alone but since koi have a herd instinct, some extent the number of a group will eat more food aggressively without fear.

Hirogoi
05-20-2009, 09:11 PM
That's good to know. Do you have pics of some of the best you've breed?

hondataeg6
05-23-2009, 12:04 AM
Any new pictures of the fry?

Super Kindai
05-24-2009, 10:39 AM
That's good to know. Do you have pics of some of the best you've breed?
It's not the best but one of the decent. one.http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92133

Super Kindai
05-24-2009, 10:44 AM
Any new pictures of the fry?

Here we go, 15 days old or so........ a group of the larger ones.

Sarge
05-24-2009, 11:03 AM
Very interesting. I assume you have made your first cull? I look forward to seeing your progress.

Super Kindai
05-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Very interesting. I assume you have made your first cull? I look forward to seeing your progress.
Hi Sarge, We plan first cull sometimes in mid to end June, although it depends on a growth speed of the fry.
When fry grow to 1.5 - 2.0 inches length, then we can see Hi pattern of individual baby fish clearly.

Midorigoi
05-25-2009, 01:27 PM
:cheer: They're getting so big!! :cheer:

Super Kindai
05-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Scoop up some from the fry/baby herd to watch in the process of making patterns.....( 3 weeks +) :rolleyes:

stephen
05-31-2009, 03:52 PM
:punk1::yes::yes:

hondataeg6
06-01-2009, 04:19 PM
nice...

rainblood
06-01-2009, 04:24 PM
At this early stage, can you see anything promising?
Do you have an example of what to look for in baby Kohaku?

elduderino
06-01-2009, 04:26 PM
when do you expect to see some hi?

Midorigoi
06-01-2009, 09:28 PM
That is really, really cool!!!

Super Kindai
06-03-2009, 12:40 AM
At this early stage, can you see anything promising?
Do you have an example of what to look for in baby Kohaku?
No, not yet....we can't see promising ones at this stage. Although we have not done 1st cull yet,
A purpose of 1st cull is to reduce number drastically by removing ones that have no chance to be decent Kohakus such as Shiro muji, Aka muji, Zukinkaburi, Bozu, red tail fin, or too little Hi pattern on body, etc, etc. In addition to that, we will remove ones without white space on mouth and tail joint in many cases. By doing that way, 90%+ will be removed very easily....1 keeper out of 10 or 15, something like that.

These pics are from last year. I think it was after 2nd cull......:D:

Super Kindai
06-03-2009, 12:48 AM
when do you expect to see some hi?
Ah, these yellowish colors of the fry/baby are all Hi....:yes:

Ethan25
06-03-2009, 09:45 AM
I would like the one on the bottom right please.

I don't care how much.

:eek1::D:

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=309722&stc=1&d=1244003959

Super Kindai
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
I would like the one on the bottom right please.

I don't care how much.

:eek1::D:



That pattern makes the baby stand out, isn't it ? ..:D:
the beni quality is OK but not good enough to make us happy, although it is controllable within some range (to a certain degree)....


Here is a few progress pictures for your reference from last year.

Flounder
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
I would like the one on the bottom right please.

I don't care how much.

Junichi, he's really RICH and doesn't care how much....;)

I think that's a tategoi...;)

rainblood
06-03-2009, 01:38 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

:bow::bow::bow:

hondataeg6
06-03-2009, 02:57 PM
are you going to keep them, or sale them ??

Super Kindai
06-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Junichi, he's really RICH and doesn't care how much....;)

I think that's a tategoi...;)
Ryan, I know that since Ethen has been hunting koi thoughout the year.

a tategoi? Do you want to see my tategoi ....(:eek1:):D:

Super Kindai
06-04-2009, 12:43 PM
are you going to keep them, or sale them ??
Hi, We are nothing but pure armatures.... so, we are not breeding koi for a purpose of selling them.

rainblood
06-04-2009, 12:50 PM
Hi, We are nothing but pure armatures.... so, we are not breeding koi for a purpose of selling them.

So what do you do with your culls?

Koi flavored Mangos? :barf:

Midorigoi
06-04-2009, 07:34 PM
The skin quality on those koi is AMAZING!!!:bow:

What are you feeding them right now?

jonathan
06-04-2009, 08:27 PM
Nice :yes: You should send me a few of them :D:

Super Kindai
06-04-2009, 10:14 PM
So what do you do with your culls?

Koi flavored Mangos? :barf:

Rain, instead of Mangos, enriches color for the Japanese persimmon fruit in my garden.:D:

it's depend on stage, size, grade of the baby but we can bring culls to local pet shops, koi dealer, koi club auctions.

Super Kindai
06-04-2009, 10:47 PM
The skin quality on those koi is AMAZING!!!:bow:

What are you feeding them right now?
Even small baby, you can see difference of the skin quality. some have luster, transparency like a silk.

First a week or two is harder but once fry grow to 1" or over, they can eat anything size-wize.

We are feeding roughly grind higher protein koi food now.

Skin ↓

Super Kindai
06-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Nice :yes: You should send me a few of them :D:
I have been looking for Asagi for long..... a good one like yours...:D:

hondataeg6
06-09-2009, 12:16 AM
Any new pictures of you're stunning kohaku fry?

Super Kindai
06-11-2009, 12:34 PM
Any new pictures of you're stunning kohaku fry?
I am not sure yet for this year' result..:D:
We have decided to do 1st cull this coming weekend.

rainblood
06-11-2009, 01:06 PM
I am not sure yet for this year' result..:D:
We have decided to do 1st cull this coming weekend.

:clap::clap:

Take lots of pics.

jonathan
06-11-2009, 01:12 PM
I have been looking for Asagi for long..... a good one like yours...:D:
Mabye we can trade next summer a copple asagis for a copple ?

rainblood
06-13-2009, 11:52 PM
Well? Cull yet?

EricT
06-14-2009, 12:49 AM
spawned those showa/ utsuri yet??

hondataeg6
06-15-2009, 02:01 AM
Any recent pictures, first cull yet?

Super Kindai
06-15-2009, 07:58 PM
We have done our first cull partially.


Some keepers from one of four growing ponds.

Before : Pic# 1 & #2 (close up)

Keepers : Pic #3 & #4 (close up)

After : Pic #5 (culls)

rainblood
06-16-2009, 10:07 AM
Yummm...Kohaku flavored Persimmons.

rainblood
06-16-2009, 10:09 AM
Whats wrong with the little guy at 11 o'clock :confused:





:D:

hondataeg6
06-16-2009, 10:23 AM
:eek1: thats a lot of culls, but thats the process right, so what's in future for the culls?

jonathan
06-16-2009, 07:50 PM
:eek1: thats a lot of culls, but thats the process right, so what's in future for the culls?
Dinner :eek1::D::harhar:

Super Kindai
06-17-2009, 01:12 AM
spawned those showa/ utsuri yet??
no, not yet. but we sure do it by the end of this month to early next month.:yes:

Super Kindai
06-17-2009, 01:16 AM
Whats wrong with the little guy at 11 o'clock :confused:

:D:

:eek1: which one? There are about 50-60 fish at 11 o'clock.......:D:

Super Kindai
06-17-2009, 01:34 AM
:eek1: thats a lot of culls, but thats the process right, so what's in future for the culls?

:yes:
the first cull and also second cull are especially important. Once you do it correctly, then there would be few culls at third and forth cull.
the culls are kept in a different smaller container, feed a little, grow a little by little, observing for study. they will go to local pet shops or an auction of our koi club later.

rainblood
06-17-2009, 10:00 AM
:eek1: Which one? There are about 50-60 fish at 11 o'clock.......:d:

:d: ;)

karm40
06-17-2009, 11:41 AM
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this process. I don't recall seeing the criteria for culling. How do you pick? Are you in SoCal by some chance?:clap:
Thanks!

EricT
06-17-2009, 04:11 PM
no, not yet. but we sure do it by the end of this month to early next month.:yes:


keep us posted. i would love to get my hands on some eggs. :yes:

Super Kindai
06-17-2009, 10:11 PM
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this process. I don't recall seeing the criteria for culling. How do you pick? Are you in SoCal by some chance?:clap:
Thanks!
Hi, First culling for Kohaku fry/baby is not so difficult once they grew up 3-4cm. A simple theory.....Kohaku = Two colors koi = They have to have some reasonable pattern as for Kohaku.:D: Yes, we are in Socal and also members of ZNA SoCal .

Aussies5
06-21-2009, 06:01 PM
Junichi, one of the pictures that you posted is of Shiro fry.

Do you still have these growing out? If so, how big are they now? Was that from a spawn last year or ???

I would like to find a nice Shiro Tosai to grow out in my QT. I have one exceptional Shiro in the pond now and I just rehomed a Shiro this week, on whick secondary hi appear almost overnight.

Every pond need 2 Shiro's.

EricT
06-21-2009, 08:25 PM
Every pond need 2 Shiro's.

i don't even have one. :no::no::no:

Super Kindai
06-22-2009, 12:28 AM
Junichi, one of the pictures that you posted is of Shiro fry.

Do you still have these growing out? If so, how big are they now? Was that from a spawn last year or ???

I would like to find a nice Shiro Tosai to grow out in my QT. I have one exceptional Shiro in the pond now and I just rehomed a Shiro this week, on whick secondary hi appear almost overnight.

Every pond need 2 Shiro's.
Hi Barbara, Yes, I still keep some including ones in the attached picture which was taken at the end of March '09.
Yes, they are from a spawn last year, by crossing Showa x showa and Shiro uturi, got eggs at Aug 25th '08. then started swimming at beginning of Sept '08. their sizes are vary now, from 8" to 15-16",  average around 12". Btw, Chai has a few, including the one that has stray Hi in center of the picture because he likes that' body flow..:D: and also Chin of our club has several of them from the same spawn, they are still several inches though.:yes:

In general, since Shiro Uturi is only two color koi compared with Showa, a requirement of SU' shiroji/skin quality and sumi quality is higher than showa..:yes:
the second picture from my friend is for your reference of secondary hi on Shiro uturi, although that was a rare and exceptional case...:eek1:

hondataeg6
06-22-2009, 09:15 AM
Any new pictures on the kohaku's ?

Tommygug
06-24-2009, 11:08 AM
I am also interested in the process...I am raising a batch of my own as well. How large are your fry now? Have you begun culling. I am getting to the point where I will need to start culling....I would like to see where you are in the process...thanks

rainblood
06-24-2009, 11:32 AM
I am also interested in the process...I am raising a batch of my own as well. How large are your fry now? Have you begun culling. I am getting to the point where I will need to start culling....I would like to see where you are in the process...thanks


Post 86 ;)

qkoi
06-24-2009, 11:28 PM
Post 86 ;)

I have been trying to raise sanke koi fry this year. After a month of feeding Brineshrimp, I still do not achieve growth as fast your kohaku. Can you tell me what kind of food you use to raise your fry. Thanks

Super Kindai
06-30-2009, 03:22 AM
I am also interested in the process...I am raising a batch of my own as well. How large are your fry now? Have you begun culling. I am getting to the point where I will need to start culling....I would like to see where you are in the process...thanks
Hi, There are three growing ponds at the breeding site and size of our Kohaku fry vary, from 1" to 2", depend on fry' population density in each pond. Btw, Kohaku breeding in a back yard is not recommendable because of a limited space.

Super Kindai
06-30-2009, 03:23 AM
I have been trying to raise sanke koi fry this year. After a month of feeding Brineshrimp, I still do not achieve growth as fast your kohaku. Can you tell me what kind of food you use to raise your fry. Thanks
Hi, Live Daphnia is best for fry but we could not prepare it on time this year. so, we used Hikari Plankton which works pretty good..

Super Kindai
06-30-2009, 03:31 AM
We have done 2nd cull last Sunday, although it was a bit too early for that, in order to make space for our next Showa breeding project....:D:

As a result, we have selected roughly 400 fry successfully.....
and a rate of Katatuki (to stick decent Hi pattern) was improved conspicuously compared to past years.......so far.

rainblood
06-30-2009, 09:26 AM
Looks like you missed the koi at 11 o'clock :D: :wave:

hondataeg6
06-30-2009, 11:57 AM
We have done 2nd cull last Sunday, although it was a bit too early for that, in order to make space for our next Showa breeding project....:D:

As a result, we have selected roughly 400 fry successfully.....
and a rate of Katatuki (to stick decent Hi pattern) was improved conspicuously compared to past years.......so far.

:clap: :bow: :yes:

EricT
06-30-2009, 12:19 PM
in order to make space for our next Showa breeding project....:D:

did i hear.... SHOWA BREEDING?!?!?!!?!

Hirogoi
06-30-2009, 06:31 PM
DO you have examples of your older spawns?

Luck
07-01-2009, 12:20 AM
Man Junichi those are looking nice, what are your water hardness levels and pH? Just curious. I see some in there that I think will be excellent...

Tommygug
07-01-2009, 08:48 AM
Nice Pictures, but really nice fry...They are developing nicely, good luck with them. Your pictures will be a big help when I cull mine in a few weeks.
I agree with you, backyard spawning & rearing can be quite difficult. If you are willing to do all the work thats involved and you limit the fry you growout, the rewards are worth it. When someone comes to your house and asks where did you buy her and the answer is "She's one of the koi I breed" that is quite rewarding, at least to me..It makes is all worthwhile!

Super Kindai
07-04-2009, 02:32 PM
DO you have examples of your older spawns?
These are from last year and the offspring had a tendency of heavy pattern overall. there were many, many menkaburi and less numbers of step type pattern.

Super Kindai
07-04-2009, 02:51 PM
Man Junichi those are looking nice, what are your water hardness levels and pH? Just curious. I see some in there that I think will be excellent...

Hi Dustin, I don't know an exact numbers because I have not checked it for a long time but there are high.... it should be close to 300 ppm and around 8.0 pH.

Keep your eyes on the ones you see something "looks good" at this stage.... because those will remain in most cases and are still "looks good" later...:rolleyes:

Luck
07-04-2009, 03:21 PM
Thank you

Midorigoi
07-04-2009, 05:01 PM
I like the tanchos & inazuma pattern fry :D: What kind of filter do you have on there? With all those fish the water is still crystal clear! :clap:

littleuncle07
07-07-2009, 06:23 AM
WOW the be alot of frys!!!!:palmtree2:

powerman
07-07-2009, 10:02 AM
this is very impressive....you are raising some awesome fry...it makes me cross-eyed looking at a whole net full of them....makes me want to get some acreage and set up some mud ponds.....wow....nice job.....:bow:

hondataeg6
07-22-2009, 10:43 PM
Any current pictures?

NaturesCall
07-23-2009, 12:29 AM
You know what I find interesting is the color. The parents have such a nice deep Hi base. When you look at the youngsters in the earilier stages they look almost a yellowish orange. Then in Post 114, you can see the color deepening.

Do you think they might aquire the same red as the parents as they get older?

Hirogoi
07-28-2009, 06:10 PM
So what do some of those old spawns look like now?

rainblood
08-20-2009, 01:11 AM
We need updates :wife:

EricT
08-20-2009, 07:21 PM
:protest::protest::protest:

Super Kindai
09-07-2009, 12:16 AM
After 2nd cull at the end of June, all the kohaku fry got gills disease. tried to cure them during July but lose about three quarters...:eek1:

a few weeks ago, we have done 3rd cull quickly because there were only about 100 survivors (we forgot to take picture) and I brought three babies to my home for a grow-out experiment, they are "give-and-take" fish though....:D:

Dale M.
09-07-2009, 12:22 AM
I like the three step. looking good...

Super Kindai
09-07-2009, 12:47 AM
I like the three step. looking good...
the Kuchibeni, three step? ...it has a best Hi plate (thickness & uniformity wise) among them.....a little bit short body though....:D:

NaturesCall
09-07-2009, 08:08 AM
Your heart must have sank watching them die off.

Super Kindai
09-08-2009, 06:53 PM
You know what I find interesting is the color. The parents have such a nice deep Hi base. When you look at the youngsters in the earilier stages they look almost a yellowish orange. Then in Post 114, you can see the color deepening.

Do you think they might aquire the same red as the parents as they get older?

Both female & male parents are important ( good skin is a must ) but generally speaking, breeders tend to expect body frame from a female parent and quality of beni & sumi from male parent(s). So, our idea is that the male's beni quality on the female body as a goal, but in reality, there are various color tones show up when fry grow a little biggher than that size like a 4 - 5 inches. then a problam is whether we have eyes to find it out or not.....:D:


Your heart must have sank watching them die off.
Once new born fry get something wrong........ we knew that a recovering from sickness was almost impossible. NEXT TIME!! :yes:

rainblood
09-15-2009, 09:53 AM
Once new born fry get something wrong........ we knew that a recovering from sickness was almost impossible. NEXT TIME!! :yes:

Always next time :clap::yes:

Super Kindai
09-16-2009, 08:43 PM
Always next time :clap::yes:
there are about 60-70 "kohaku patterned" offspring with average quality....because they are from the 2nd cull.:D:

Koigrl
10-03-2009, 10:01 PM
sk, i just discovered this thread. thanks for sharing!

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 04:47 PM
sk, i just discovered this thread. thanks for sharing!

Hi, my keepers of the 3 kohaku have grown by 6" or so...:D:


Beni / Hi plate quality comparison....

Better → Average → Poor ( from left to right).

;)

Marilyn
10-05-2009, 04:51 PM
Very interesting Junichi. :yes: It's a perfect comparison side by side.

Koigrl
10-05-2009, 05:05 PM
junichi, they are lookers!

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 05:08 PM
Other several keepers.

Different color beni.

Best patterns.

Culled out.

Tommygug
10-05-2009, 05:47 PM
You have some nice growth on your fry...I will need to work on that next spring. I don't know if I will grow less fry or dig the grow out pond I keep thinking about. Perhaps I will do both!
I like the fuller pattern on the fish in the second picture with the white at the tail. I am not so sure of the body shape. I am surprised you kept an all white fry. why? what would you call it? Why would you keep it?

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 05:59 PM
Very interesting Junichi. :yes: It's a perfect comparison side by side.

It was too easy for you Marilyn, wasn't it? ;)

Now, Here is a little difficult.....but there are big difference among them, and there is only one keeper as for beni quality.... density-wise....:D:

(P.S. they are not homebred but are bred by a pro breeder in Japan, $20 price range though.)

nguyen4
10-05-2009, 06:14 PM
what is bloodline of parents fish?

Marilyn
10-05-2009, 06:28 PM
I'll try but it's so hard to tell from the pic.

My pic is the middle fish though I don't like the skin on this one. I almost picked the bottom one because of the sashi and kiwa being so clean but I confess the lack of back pattern made me pick the middle one. :D:

Watch it be the top one. :rolleyes:

Luck
10-05-2009, 06:43 PM
quite the difference in head shape yes?

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 06:56 PM
junichi, they are lookers!
:yahoo:...:D:

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 06:57 PM
You have some nice growth on your fry...I will need to work on that next spring. I don't know if I will grow less fry or dig the grow out pond I keep thinking about. Perhaps I will do both!
I like the fuller pattern on the fish in the second picture with the white at the tail. I am not so sure of the body shape. I am surprised you kept an all white fry. why? what would you call it? Why would you keep it?


Hi, It is said that if we lose a numbers of hatched fry, say about 20%, before 1st culling, we won't be able to get top ones anymore from its spawn. It's depend on pro breeders & koi variety but they usually release only 20,000 - 50,000 fry in a space of a quarter acre field pond each. That's why Showa breeding is recommended for armature's relatively small back yard space.

the fuller pattern on the fish in the second picture, I guess the 3rd one from left,.... generally speaking, it has best beni among them and that' beni is a same type as the left one in the post #133. the body shape is pretty bad and most cases it won't change or improve as the fish grows in future...:D:
Ah, those white ones used to have Hi patterns but it had gone away. that's why the fish in last picture of #136 are all culled out.

DebbieKSW
10-05-2009, 06:58 PM
A big differnece in Beni Quality too.I really like this thread and have learnt so much.

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 07:12 PM
what is bloodline of parents fish?

the Maruten pattern kohaku among the parents is only mine that came from somewhere in Niigata :D:, and the female and other male are belong to my friend...so, I forgot. :eek1:

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 07:35 PM
I'll try but it's so hard to tell from the pic.

My pic is the middle fish though I don't like the skin on this one. I almost picked the bottom one because of the sashi and kiwa being so clean but I confess the lack of back pattern made me pick the middle one. :D:

Watch it be the top one. :rolleyes:
you see, that's why I think you have a good sense....:yes:

Sashi and kiwa are details and it's a important part of elements too but overall uniformity and density of hi plate comes first, and there are different about thickness, brightness, and luster from the bottom of hi plate between the middle fish and the bottom one.
maybe, We have to "feel" something instead of "thinking" or analyzing.....:D:

Marilyn
10-05-2009, 07:41 PM
:w00t: :D:

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 07:58 PM
quite the difference in head shape yes?

:yes:,
it's interesting to compare, isn't it? ...since they are offspring from the same parent set, and each have different bone, body flow, quality, and of course patterns.

the left fish is picked by its beni quality, the middle one is picked by its bone and body flow with acceptable pattern, and the right one is picked by only fancy pattern...:D:

I think the middle one will be only keeper overall in near future, although one of "key" pattern of this kohaku which was a stray small hi patch on the left side of body between 2nd and 3rd hi plates has gone away....:D:

Super Kindai
10-05-2009, 08:15 PM
A big differnece in Beni Quality too.I really like this thread and have learnt so much.
Happy koi hunting & breeding, Debbie. :cheer:

Hirogoi
10-15-2009, 07:07 AM
How are they looking now?

cindy
10-15-2009, 09:34 AM
Coming in late, sorry about the gill disease.

Thought it would be interesting to do a time line on the pics for quick reference

Super Kindai
11-30-2009, 03:36 PM
Thank you Cindy for organizing the pics. that is cool.:yes: Here is a partial update of a few tosai.

Koijazz
11-30-2009, 03:51 PM
So cute! How big are they?

Super Kindai
01-10-2010, 05:42 PM
So cute! How big are they?

They are about 10-11" as of today.

Here are some update.....(:eek1:)

1 kohaku (female)

2 Kakono (male & female)

:D:

stephen
01-10-2010, 05:48 PM
:eek1::eek1::eek1::jaw::jaw::scared::gack::faint2:

GloriaL
01-10-2010, 08:05 PM
They are about 10-11" as of today.

Here are some update.....(:eek1:)

1 kohaku (female)

2 Kakono (male & female)

:D:

Is that Kanoko?

CHICHI
01-11-2010, 10:37 AM
:eek1:

Super Kindai
01-11-2010, 09:58 PM
:eek1::eek1::eek1::jaw::jaw::scared::gack::faint2:


:eek1:
:D: That's why koi is interesting.:yahoo:

Super Kindai
01-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Is that Kanoko?

um, they are a sort of kanoko condition but these won't last long.

Here is a reverse sample..... not exactly kanoko but secondary hi though.:D:

rainblood
01-11-2010, 11:28 PM
They are about 10-11" as of today.

Here are some update.....(:eek1:)

1 kohaku (female)

2 Kakono (male & female)

:D:

:eek1::eek1:

What happened:confused:

Super Kindai
01-12-2010, 07:30 PM
:eek1::eek1:

What happened:confused:
Ah, to feed a lot of food in the heated warm water of a relatively "Poor water quality" is a best combination to see a true potential of beni/hi plates, whether beni remain or not, for the future of fish.....:D:

Marilyn
01-12-2010, 07:50 PM
I guess it is! Very interesting indeed.

CHICHI
01-12-2010, 08:00 PM
Ah, to feed a lot of food in the heated warm water of a relatively "Poor water quality" is a best combination to see a true potential of beni/hi plates, whether beni remain or not, for the future of fish.....:D:

SK This Query has recently emerged over here ?

We Know That High PH (re Roddy) along with my own experiences ruins Koi Colouration :eek1:

In Your Experience How Big A Role Does "Temp" Play Too .. ? I was always led to believe 20-26C is Superb a Temp For Koi ..?

Super Kindai
01-13-2010, 12:23 AM
I guess it is! Very interesting indeed.

Many, many tosai of tategoi candidate are turning to white fish in breeders' highly heated ponds during winter....:D:

Contrarily, to keep a group of nice patterned but slightly lower beni quality koi in lower temp (lower than 18C) and then feed only color food in order to strengthen the basis of beni/hi plates is a popular handling and feeding techniques....:yes:

Super Kindai
01-13-2010, 12:27 AM
SK This Query has recently emerged over here ?

We Know That High PH (re Roddy) along with my own experiences ruins Koi Colouration :eek1:

In Your Experience How Big A Role Does "Temp" Play Too .. ? I was always led to believe 20-26C is Superb a Temp For Koi ..?
CHIHCI, it is said (in Japan) that higher PH cause thinner hi plates and decrease luster but red color tends to finishing/complete relatively faster, while very low PH break hi plates away easily which was observed by laboratory tests.

I think temp play a lot..... as far as I know, 24-25 C is known as best temp among the good range of 20-26C or so. Interestingly, tosai are lively in higher temp even 30C+, while matured koi prefer to a slightly lower temp around 22-24C....

farne230
01-13-2010, 08:59 AM
Junichi-san, what do you call the water plant in your original photo's. I think this is a great idea to include this plant during a spawn, for fry and protect the large koi.
Bob

hondataeg6
01-15-2010, 11:28 AM
Junichi-san, what do you call the water plant in your original photo's. I think this is a great idea to include this plant during a spawn, for fry and protect the large koi.
Bob

Water Hyacinth

Marilyn
01-15-2010, 05:32 PM
Many, many tosai of tategoi candidate are turning to white fish in breeders' highly heated ponds during winter....:D:

Contrarily, to keep a group of nice patterned but slightly lower beni quality koi in lower temp (lower than 18C) and then feed only color food in order to strengthen the basis of beni/hi plates is a popular handling and feeding techniques....:yes:

Thank you Junichi, since I am not trying to push rapidly to jumbo I welcome the cooler temps to give the koi a chance to consolidate the beni.
I don't expect I will be pushing them past what they can handle genetically. Steady growth has been working for me. :yes:
I still have a lot to learn and figuring out the "speed limits" on beni is out of my league. :D:

Koijazz
01-15-2010, 11:53 PM
What's the blue stuff the koi bred in?

spudsy
01-16-2010, 07:39 AM
They are about 10-11" as of today.

Here are some update.....(:eek1:)

1 kohaku (female)

2 Kakono (male & female)

:D:

they are not kanoko they are going to be shiro muji, its a shame but it happens, a kanoko would be a stable dappled hi, thats not what yours have, the one that hasnt lost its beni looks good though...

i've kept koi in fish tanks and heated vats, and have never had a koi lose its colour, you need to make sure the water is clean (good filtration and water changes) also offer a good mix of high quality foods, and lots of air, sunlight and algae also make a big difference

Hirogoi
01-16-2010, 07:42 AM
What's the blue stuff the koi bred in?


Looks like mesh.

geraldlim
07-02-2010, 05:21 PM
Bump!

Showaking12
11-07-2010, 02:06 PM
Any updates in fish? Are they pushing 20 inches yet?

GloriaL
11-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Does anybody know why Super Kindai does not post here any more?

stephen
11-07-2010, 04:17 PM
Does anybody know why Super Kindai does not post here any more?

I believe JR made that stipulation when SK became a judge. He has been posting at koi bito since his judgeship.

Aussies5
11-07-2010, 11:05 PM
Just saw Junichisan today and had a great talk about how to improve fish in general. Great and wise man and a great educator. He lives very near me and I wish I could visit with him more often. I believe, from what I have heard, Junichi has not been asked to stop posting but rather to not critique fish. He saw my post here in which I asked for my Sanke to be critiqued, he did not reply, but we had a very interesting talk about that fish today. We were at Andrew's Koi in Anaheim, Ca. The ZNA club was having a fish auction. Both of us belong to that ZNA club.

MikeS
11-08-2010, 07:57 AM
Well next time you see him Barbara, ask if he'll update his breeding and teaching threads :yes: I think I speak for alot of us when I say he is missed here.