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kytalker
12-25-2008, 06:15 PM
Luckly my pond has filled up over the last 3 days.. I check the hardness of the water and my kit says it is soft.. I have done some reading on here and some people say soft water is ok and some say you need hard water.. From what I can tell hard water will bring the colors out in the fish and make them brighter... If it needs to be hard water what would I be able to do to make it hard.. If it needs to be soft then I will just leave it alone... What is everyone opinion??????

CHICHI
12-25-2008, 06:22 PM
Luckly my pond has filled up over the last 3 days.. I check the hardness of the water and my kit says it is soft.. I have done some reading on here and some people say soft water is ok and some say you need hard water.. From what I can tell hard water will bring the colors out in the fish and make them brighter... If it needs to be hard water what would I be able to do to make it hard.. If it needs to be soft then I will just leave it alone... What is everyone opinion??????

Hi KT ..:D:

What is the GH/KH/PH of your Water ?

kytalker
12-25-2008, 11:14 PM
Hi KT ..:D:

What is the GH/KH/PH of your Water ?
gh is .25
kh dont know
ph 6.8

i am gonna add 100 lbs of lime tomorrow

CHICHI
12-26-2008, 04:08 AM
gh is .25
kh dont know
ph 6.8

i am gonna add 100 lbs of lime tomorrow

Good idea :yes: PH needs to be neutral at 7 or above :yes:

HAMMERHEAD
12-26-2008, 06:55 AM
How did you fill the pond so fast? Did you add any bentonite?
Water too soft can cause rapid growth with poor bone development
You can use lime or calcium chloride. I would try to get gh and kh above 50ppm.

CHICHI
12-26-2008, 07:07 AM
How did you fill the pond so fast? Did you add any bentonite?
Water too soft can cause rapid growth with poor bone development
You can use lime or calcium chloride. I would try to get gh and kh above 50ppm.

Beg to Differ :yes:

Koi can aquire all the Minerals they need from their Diet and excessive Water Hardness is uneccessary and expensive ..

I run 50 ppm KH and the same or slightly higher GH with no problems at all :yes: This yields a safer value PH in relation to the NH3 content of the Water :yes:

Win Win all round IMO

HAMMERHEAD
12-26-2008, 07:15 AM
Beg to Differ :yes:

Koi can aquire all the Minerals they need from their Diet and excessive Water Hardness is uneccessary and expensive ..

I run 50 ppm KH and the same or slightly higher GH with no problems at all :yes: This yields a safer value PH in relation to the NH3 content of the Water :yes:

Win Win all round IMO

You just said you run around 50 kh and gh..That is fine :yes:
Its when you source water is 10ppm or less.My well water comes out of the ground at 5ppm gh , 5ppm kh and 5.5 ph..The ph will rise to 7 in a day but the kh and gh stay the same.If I did not buffer the water t would probably yeild some bad quality koi
What I meant was buffer to at least 50 or higher

CHICHI
12-26-2008, 07:30 AM
You just said you run around 50 kh and gh..That is fine :yes:
Its when you source water is 10ppm or less.My well water comes out of the ground at 5ppm gh , 5ppm kh and 5.5 ph..The ph will rise to 7 in a day but the kh and gh stay the same.If I did not buffer the water t would probably yeild some bad quality koi What I meant was buffer to at least 50 or higher

Hi H ..:D:

I see :sorry: :yes::yes:

My Source Water has similar GH/KH Values to your Well Water and at one point I was spending a Fortune buffering ridiculous Values of 180 ppm of both KH/GH :eek1: (and I replace a LOT of Water) which are totally uneccessary and yield a more Dangerously high PH in relation to the "Free Amm" Content of the Water :yes:

sundan
12-26-2008, 08:16 AM
gh is .25
kh dont know
ph 6.8

i am gonna add 100 lbs of lime tomorrow

make sure you have no fish in pond when adding lime. It will kill your fish. Ph will jump to around 12 and level off around a week or so.

kytalker
12-26-2008, 08:54 AM
make sure you have no fish in pond when adding lime. It will kill your fish. Ph will jump to around 12 and level off around a week or so.

HMMMM... I may have screwed up cause there are 20 fish in it... What if I add like 25-30 lbs at a time over 4-5 days and have a pump running to push it across the water to mix it..

kytalker
12-26-2008, 08:58 AM
How did you fill the pond so fast? Did you add any bentonite?
Water too soft can cause rapid growth with poor bone development
You can use lime or calcium chloride. I would try to get gh and kh above 50ppm.

Big rain.. Should I just try the bentonite first?? Maybe 200 lbs??? Or add both???

sundan
12-26-2008, 11:12 AM
HMMMM... I may have screwed up cause there are 20 fish in it... What if I add like 25-30 lbs at a time over 4-5 days and have a pump running to push it across the water to mix it..

then you have defeated the purpose of adding lime to the pond. adding lime to pond increase ph to 12 real fast to kill all bacteria, ect. Your fish will not handle that increase so fast. You need to get your fish out and then lime.

kytalker
12-26-2008, 11:29 AM
then you have defeated the purpose of adding lime to the pond. adding lime to pond increase ph to 12 real fast to kill all bacteria, ect. Your fish will not handle that increase so fast. You need to get your fish out and then lime.

Even if I take a boat and spread it out over the surface 25lbs at a time over several days... The is a catfish farmer next to us and he has some koi in a pond next to his house and he just backs a lime truck up to it and runs it for about 10-15 secs... He said it hasnt hurt his fish.. I have no dea which way to go.. Now my pond is about 3/4 acre and 8 foot deep here it is before it was full and now..

kytalker
12-26-2008, 11:47 AM
OK... I just went and checked it again and the ph is at 7.5 and I have dont nothing to it... I guess I had better leave well enogh alone...

CHICHI
12-26-2008, 12:29 PM
OK... I just went and checked it again and the ph is at 7.5 and I have dont nothing to it... I guess I had better leave well enogh alone...

Hi KT ..:D:

In your Situation the wisest course would be to Moniter PH/KH/GH over several weeks - You don`t want the PH in particular to be Fluctuating wildly :eek1:
The recommendations are to have "Soil" from various parts of the Pond analysed before prophylactic Liming :yes:

Some info ..


Identifying Liming Needs
Identifying liming needs can be accomplished by
taking either a water or soil sample from the pond.
Measuring the total alkalinity of water in the pond is
the most effective, and easiest way to determine if
liming is necessary. Local county extension offices
are often equipped to measure the total alkalinity of a
water sample or can assist you with purchasing a test
kit of your own, or in sending a water sample to a lab
for analysis. Liming is recommended for
ponds with a total alkalinity of less than 20 ppm
Applying limestone to ponds which are full of water is
more difficult, but can be done without fear of harming the fish.
The material should be broadcast evenly over the entire
pond surface. For large ponds, a small boat with a
plywood platform can be used to carry the lime
beyond the reach of shoreline broadcasting; care must
be taken to not overload the boat, as a small volume
of limestone is extremely heavy (Figure 1). There are
commercial pond management companies, which can
be hired, who have barges specifically designed to
lime ponds. Dumping limestone in large piles on the
edge of the pond is extremely inefficient and not
recommended. For extremely small ponds or tanks,
limestone can be dissolved in a bucket of water, and
then added to the pond or tank..

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA02800.pdf

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/fisheries/420-254/420-254.html#L4


Generally, liming is good for three years. It is virtually impossible to over-lime a pond with agricultural limestone since lime adjusts soil to a maximum of pH 8.6, which is below the upper limit of 9.0 for good fish health. Excess liming will only improve water quality by increasing hardness and alkalinity. Generally, liming a pond will increase the alkalinity of the pond to 20 parts per million. In some instances, however, alkalinities of 50 parts per million are needed for applications of copper herbicides in ponds and additional lime over the recommended rate from a pond mud sample may be needed. The only times liming will not benefit recreational fish ponds are in specific instances where the flow-through of water in the pond is so rapid that the alkalinity and pH cannot be changed, the pond is in a coastal area with naturally hard water due to high calcium carbonate pond bottoms from shell deposits, or in ponds filled from certain deep wells which have high alkalinity and low hardness.

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1711.htm

expat
12-31-2008, 07:10 PM
After recieving no rain for months East Tennessee got a lot and as our pond received a lot of runoff from surrounding fields and woods I decided to carry out a test of the water to see if any Nitrates etc and been run in. As you can see from the results below that was not a problem but the hardness (or lack of it!) might be.

Pond test = PH 7.0

GH -1.0o

KH - 1.0o

NO2 < 0.3mg/l

NO3/4 0

Well test = GH 7o

KH 9o

PH 7.5

I intend to do nothing for a while to see how things settle, the well results might be a more representative result. But I suspect I will have to lime sometime before spring. Thanks for the info on liming but I am not sure how to relate the readings from my Tetra Test Kit which gives an acceptable hardness range of 6o - 16o for both G&KH with the PPMs mentioned in the articles, for which I thank you.

CHICHI
12-31-2008, 08:02 PM
After recieving no rain for months East Tennessee got a lot and as our pond received a lot of runoff from surrounding fields and woods I decided to carry out a test of the water to see if any Nitrates etc and been run in. As you can see from the results below that was not a problem but the hardness (or lack of it!) might be.

Pond test = PH 7.0

GH -1.0o

KH - 1.0o

NO2 < 0.3mg/l

NO3/4 0

Well test = GH 7o

KH 9o

PH 7.5

I intend to do nothing for a while to see how things settle, the well results might be a more representative result. But I suspect I will have to lime sometime before spring. Thanks for the info on liming but I am not sure how to relate the readings from my Tetra Test Kit which gives an acceptable hardness range of 6o - 16o for both G&KH with the PPMs mentioned in the articles, for which I thank you.

Hi EP ..:D:

Forgive me but are the KH/GH at 100 ppm :confused: ? or 1ppm only the way it is written is a tad confusing :yes:

expat
12-31-2008, 09:13 PM
Hi EP ..:D:

Forgive me but are the KH/GH at 100 ppm :confused: ? or 1ppm only the way it is written is a tad confusing :yes:

Not sure what the PPMs are, my test kit reads a number with like a degree sign after it? but as I never got a colour change it must be a low figour.

CHICHI
01-01-2009, 04:38 AM
Hi EP ..:D:


expat - Not sure what the PPMs are, my test kit reads a number with like a degree sign after it? but as I never got a colour change it must be a low figour.

No BLUE on the KH whatsoever isn`t good :eek1:

I would begin Liming as the literature in my earlier Post recommends for ANC under 20 ppm :eek1:

expat
01-03-2009, 04:27 PM
OK... I just went and checked it again and the ph is at 7.5 and I have dont nothing to it... I guess I had better leave well enogh alone...

I have the same problem as you, soft water in a mud pond and fish in it. What I intend to do is to add finely ground Agrilime every couple of days around the edge and as far out as I can get it to achieve a bettr hardess in a week or two. Also as I get a lot of runoff from the fields around; I might spread some pelleted limestone onto the ground where the water runs into the pond during heavy rains. I'm hoping the slower dissolving pellets will help to keep the water at a reasonable level of hardness without much PH change. I'm suprised that we both have around 7PH and not something off the scale?
Good luck.

CHICHI
01-03-2009, 04:38 PM
I have the same problem as you, soft water in a mud pond and fish in it. What I intend to do is to add finely ground Agrilime every couple of days around the edge and as far out as I can get it to achieve a bettr hardess in a week or two. Also as I get a lot of runoff from the fields around; I might spread some pelleted limestone onto the ground where the water runs into the pond during heavy rains. I'm hoping the slower dissolving pellets will help to keep the water at a reasonable level of hardness without much PH change. I'm suprised that we both have around 7PH and not something off the scale?
Good luck.

You would both have to undertake 24 hr PH Monitoring over several Days to know whether this is Fluctuating Wildly :eek1:

Just before Dawn usually demonstrates it`s Lowest Value and just prior to Dusk it`s highest :yes:

You could aim for the minimum 20ppm ANC which shouldn`t increase the PH too much to begin with :yes:

expat
01-03-2009, 08:50 PM
You would both have to undertake 24 hr PH Monitoring over several Days to know whether this is Fluctuating Wildly :eek1:

Just before Dawn usually demonstrates it`s Lowest Value and just prior to Dusk it`s highest :yes:

You could aim for the minimum 20ppm ANC which shouldn`t increase the PH too much to begin with :yes:

Thanks.

expat
01-04-2009, 04:25 PM
You would both have to undertake 24 hr PH Monitoring over several Days to know whether this is Fluctuating Wildly :eek1:

Just before Dawn usually demonstrates it`s Lowest Value and just prior to Dusk it`s highest :yes:

You could aim for the minimum 20ppm ANC which shouldn`t increase the PH too much to begin with :yes:

Will do. Although the water is soft it does not appear to be acidic, what makes the PH fluctuate wildly?

CHICHI
01-04-2009, 04:33 PM
Will do. Although the water is soft it does not appear to be acidic, what makes the PH fluctuate wildly?

Lack of ANC :yes:

Dick Roemer explains it very well here :yes:


We all know what happens when our
automobiles run out of gas. Actually several
things happen, and none of them are
good–a long walk to a gas station, water in
fuel injectors, etc. The results in your pond
can be even more drastic if your pond runs out of one of its
major ingredients. That ingredient is carbonates and the results
of running out of carbonates in the pond can be a drastic drop
in the pH, followed by a great rise in toxic compounds like
ammonia as the biological filter shuts down due to the low pH.
This is followed by death of the fish. I have seen cases where
every fish in a pond died suddenly due to these effects and all
because the pond ran out of carbonates
The starting point in talking about total alkalinity (might as
well get used to the term) is that you should not go below
about 40 parts per million in the pond as a minimum. Steve
Meyer said at the 1990 AKCA Seminar that the desired range is
50 to 100 ppm. In the book, Practical KOI Keeping, Volume I,
published by the AKCA, Joe Cuny says that the level shouldn't
go below 15 ppm. I think that is pushing things way too close
to the edge. In a more recent edition of KOI USA, July/August
1989, Dr. Bob Vessey says total alkalinity between 80 and 120
ppm is acceptable and below 40 ppm is dangerous. I try to
maintain at least 80 ppm in the pond at all times and accept
anything above that. This level of bicarbonates can be
maintained here in the Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C. if
water changes are done often enough as the tap water has about
70 to 90 ppm. Alan Hobron reports that his tap water in Staten
Island, N.Y., ranges from 12 to 32 ppm, however, so water
changes alone won't let him maintain an adequate level of
bicarbonate. He adds a spoonfull of Arm & Hammer every day
to his 750 gallon pond to maintain 80 ppm. Bob Vessey, in
Florida, reported in the May/June 1990 issue of KOI USA that a
member of his club who used well water was having trouble
keeping fish alive. Bob tested the well water for total alkalinity
and found it contained only 10 ppm of total alkalinity. Bob
called such toxic water chemistry the "unseen killer.

http://www.makc.com/runemt.pdf

kytalker
01-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Hi everyone.. I noticed over the weekend that some of my koi are looseing there color in my mud pond.. I have been doing some reading about hard and soft water.. Some people say Hard is great and others say it needs to be soft.. My well water is very hard and my koi thrive in it... What can I do to make my pond water harder???

farne230
01-06-2009, 08:33 AM
Stable PH between 7 & 8, Cool waters, great maintenance, KH at 80ppm and up, tds 100ppm to 200ppm, Gh 0-60ppm, non-detect polutants and determine you normal 24hour PH swings. In my opinion the most important.:yes: In gosanke, the whites are the most reflective means to detect koi moods, feelings, health and water conditions. Watch and learn.
Bob

kytalker
01-06-2009, 10:14 AM
Well I did take the advise of some people here and got the fish out.. They seem to be doing good in there.. I did noticed some of the whites on some but not all fish had a pinkish color and the black was fadeing on a some.. The reason for takeing them out was to lime the pond real good (100 lbs).. Also I went ahead for sh*ts and giggles scattered 1500 lbs of bentonite all over the surface.. I hear that its really good for koi health.. I know that it will make the bottom of the pond mucky but thats ok with me... Will the lime bring the hardnees back up on it??????

expat
01-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Stable PH between 7 & 8, Cool waters, great maintenance, KH at 80ppm and up, tds 100ppm to 200ppm, Gh 0-60ppm, non-detect polutants and determine you normal 24hour PH swings. In my opinion the most important.:yes: In gosanke, the whites are the most reflective means to detect koi moods, feelings, health and water conditions. Watch and learn.
Bob
Hello Bob, I use a Tetra test kit which measures GH & KH in degrees by counting the number of drops of the testing fluid to achieve a measure in "degrees" ie one drop of the fluid equates to 1/2 degree. How can I relate this to PPMs as most of the info (thanks) refers to PPMs of hardness etc.

expat
01-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Just read all the info put up by CHICHI and that has all the info I need to do a comparison. Thanks again.

sundan
01-06-2009, 02:55 PM
Well I did take the advise of some people here and got the fish out.. They seem to be doing good in there.. I did noticed some of the whites on some but not all fish had a pinkish color and the black was fadeing on a some.. The reason for takeing them out was to lime the pond real good (100 lbs).. Also I went ahead for sh*ts and giggles scattered 1500 lbs of bentonite all over the surface.. I hear that its really good for koi health.. I know that it will make the bottom of the pond mucky but thats ok with me... Will the lime bring the hardnees back up on it??????

here is some info from Brett that might help.
Originally Posted by Fishbreeder
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundan
Bret,
Found a feed store that has hydrated lime bag only 5 lbs at cost of $4 and dolomitic lime 50 lbs for $8. Not sure which one to get. My water is kinda hard. 2 mud ponds that are 70x40x8 around 150,000 gals. The dolomitic lime sure would be easy on the wallet. What do you recommend, what is the difference, why does one cost so much more? How much do I need to do my mud ponds maybe 200 lbs?

Originally Posted by sundan
Bret,
you talk about adding hydrated lime to mud pond to kill bad bugs in soil. Can you tell me a littlle more about this lime you use? I have seen lime sold at home depot but not sure if it is same stuff. Does pond have to be complete dry to add or can you put in in the water? Please advise.

I usually lime the pond when it is dry. I use about 200 to 400 pounds per acre of hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide). In some places, especially where the water is very soft, it is best to lime with calcium carbonate (dolomitic lime or ag-lime) at a rate of about 4000 pounds per acre.

The stuff at home depot is probably hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) and should work fine. It is also known as "Austin White Lime" and as "Bricklayer's Lime".

Don't get it on a wet place on your skin as it does burn. Also, keep it out of your eyes and nose. we use a wide mouth bucket (foot tub) and a scoop to apply. Spread with the scoop across the pond bottom, staying upwind.

Best of luck,
Brett

If your pH is above 8, you're better off with the hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide). Also, its a lot "stronger" than the dolomitic lime (calcium carbonate). You don;t need much, just a thin coating over the bottom of the pond. I use about 200 to 400 pounds per acre. (1 to 2 bags per quarter acre).

If your pH tends to stay below 8, especially if around or below 7, then use the dolomitic lime or if you can get them, crushed oyster shells. Use up to 1000 pounds per acre, even twice that amount. However, if cost a problem, at least 200 pounds per acre.

Brett
My ph is around 7.4 so looks like ok to use dolomitic lime. Can you tell me how much I would need for a pond 70ftx40ftx8ft around 150,000 gals? 2 50lbs bags? Thanks for the info.
2 bags oughta be just right.

TRy and see, you might also try another pond and use 1 bag of the hydrated lime in it, then compare.

Brett