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View Full Version : First Time Spawn Pictures - need some help on raising them... thanks!



vip168
10-09-2008, 07:42 AM
It's my first time to breed Koi. I've decided to make a photo journal of the hatching process hoping that others who have experience can help in areas I might not be paying attention to.....


Parents:

Female - Tancho Sanke
Male - Kohaku, Tancho

Date of Spawn:

Friday, October 2, 2008

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_111251718l.jpg
One day after spawn (Spawn Date +1) (Oct 3, 2008)

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_120135545l.jpg
Three days after spawn (Spawn +3) (October 5, 2008)

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_645019468l.jpg
Five days after spawn (+5) Feeding them Hikari Freeze Dried Daphnia Cubes and a pack of Sera Artemia Culture. Is 5 cubes enough for a day of feeding?


It's currently the 6th day.. will post pics every other day until they are old enough to eat flakes....

More pics to follow.. any advise would be welcome...

I recall in Brett's sticky, he mentioned feeding Egg yolk and wightlifter's protein (whey protein supplement?)... The whey protein I have has artificial flavoring (vanilla flavor). Will this harm the fry? Also, I read egg yolk affects the water quality a lot. Will I be better off not feeding them egg yolk?


Regards,


Chris.

tyco4357
10-09-2008, 09:38 AM
I usually hatch BABY brine shrimp. Very easy to do and feed them that, but if I don't have any I buy frozen Baby Brine shrimp. I think the freezedried daphnia might be too big for them, but if they are eating it that is great. I also give them zooplankton which you can pick up at pet store. Do not overfeed. Are they eating the cubes? If so that is great. I wouldn't give them anymore than what you are doing. How many do you have? 6 cubes is a lot. At this stage they need to see their food, they cannot smell it yet. That is why baby brine shrimp is good. Tiny enough for them and it is moving. You can also get cyclopese which is a powder or frozen. I think your Sera Artemia Culture is fine to feed. How big is your baby tank? Don't fret, you will have about 50-60 percent die off. That seems to be nature's way. The best way to clean the tank is to get a small siphon hose and suck up from the bottom. Make sure the water goes into some kind of pot so that you can see if you sucked up any babies. Just stick the siphon hose on the bottom and suck at the one end until you see the water coming and let it run into the pot. I have never used the egg whites for the same reason, fouls the water. I make sure I clean every two days. By the way, they look adorable! Congratulations! It will be a lot of fun.

vip168
10-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Thanks!

So far so good.. they are eating the dapnia cubes... it's hard to tell if I'm feeding them enough or not.

The baby tank is 8ft x 10ft with 1ft of water... I live in the tropics so temp isn't a problem.

The fry were transferred on the spawning media from an 8ft diameter x 2.5ft height makeshift breeding pond .. (Intex Swim Pool) There are some fry leftover there also.l.l. I'm experimenting on them with the weightlifter's protein powder... so far they seem to be able to eat it... haven't seen any fatalities yet... but the powder clouds the water.

Any way to avoid 50-60% from dying? I'd like to be able to cull them myself (instead of letting mother nature do it)...

Im currently doing around 30% water change... using an ORP meter to check for water quality... I have an ammonia test kit also but I find it easier to use the digital orp meter.

I'm getting around 250mv as a base reading for the tap water with a very high Ph of 7.8 - 8.2 (underground well / limestone rich area)... the fry pond was at around 160mv... after the water change, it settled at around 200mv... I'm targeting 160-200 orp range.

Regarding siphoning the tank... i'm scared that I might siphon their food and natural algae stuff that they seem to be munching on... maybe when they are old enough to eat flakes.. i'll do that.

Will post more pics .. hopefully everything works out... Thanks for your advise!

tyco4357
10-09-2008, 03:42 PM
gotta try to do the siphoning, really, or you are going to have a nitrite spike and they will start dying. As long as you are feeding them they should be fine. You should feed them 3-5 times a day just a little not too much. My baby vat is about the same size, a little bigger. How many do you think you have. I usually have about 3-400 and I end of with about 60-100, which is a good number. This year I had a very weak spawn and only ended up with 6. But six nice ones I have to say. Mother nature is going to do what she does. You don't want any deformed ones or ones where the gill plate is not showing. There will always be weak ones. Nothing you can do about it. Just keep the tank as clean as possible and do water changes about 25 percent weekly. You still have have plenty to cull after mother nature takes her part.

vip168
10-10-2008, 01:26 AM
Alright, I'll give the siphoning a try.

Here are some pictures for today... Spawn date +7.. still feeding on artemia, daphnia.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_459391557l.jpg
The fry pond (8ftx10ft)

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_368023852l.jpg
Lots of fry... it's like this all over the fry pond... probably has a thousand fry in there.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_892063668l.jpg
A little closeup


I plan to do some culling at 4 weeks... maybe 60-80% will be culled to make room.

Koigrl
10-10-2008, 10:00 AM
chris, thanks for posting your photo journal. and thanks, too, for those who are coaching you. good for us to learn thru you.
max

tyco4357
10-10-2008, 10:53 AM
You are going to end up with some nice looking fish. Wish you could send some fry this way!! You migght wan to set up a tank if you have one. They will grow at different speeds and the larger will eat the smaller. I usually start taking the bigger ones out and put them in a separate tank as I see them. From what I hear, the slower growing fish usually end up being the nicer. Don't know how true that is.

vip168
10-10-2008, 11:44 AM
I Hope they turn out welll....

I've read about those dreaded "Tobi". I'm keeping a close eye for them... hard to know when to start culling as they are all so tiny. When I get Tobi' ... I plan to separate them into another container...maybe the breeding pond will do until their patterns are more pronounced for culling.

I've also read about the good patterned fish being the small ones.. probably due to weak genetics from inbreeding... probably also why Tobi get so big due to stronger genetics from magoi.

vip168
10-11-2008, 08:53 PM
Pics update...


Nine days after Spawn...


http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_348358836l.jpg
http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_633268802l.jpg
http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_480585989l.jpg
http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_594388277l.jpg
http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_434108687l.jpg

vip168
10-14-2008, 05:59 AM
New pics for today.... Fry at +11 days from Spawn... so approximately.. a little over a week old.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_413161085l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_493861974l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_539479273l.jpg
What are those black spots? food?

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_833158693l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_816371965l.jpg

tyco4357
10-15-2008, 07:09 PM
When they are that young they look like little aliens!!! They are looking good.

tyco4357
10-15-2008, 07:15 PM
I belive it is. When I feed mine cyclopese, it is red and I see little red spots so I am going to say yes.

Koigrl
10-15-2008, 07:16 PM
not to hijack your thread, chris -- but i think it's something you'll want to know, too. i have 18 littles from 1" to almost 3"i n a 100 gal. stock tank inside the house. tank has an air stone and a pretty good submersible that goes to a pad-type filter which i wash out every other day. i change 25% of the water every day. question about food. i'm feeding them manda fu, hikari growth, dried krill, and also frozen shrimp which they love. i confess i've been leaving the food in longer than 'five minutes.' in fact, left the shrimp in overnight. i see no ill effects. have i been lucky so far? or do my little guys need the food to grow?
thanks!

tyco4357
10-15-2008, 08:46 PM
I would just watch your water and make sure you don't get a nitrite spike. You are feeding them very well. I wouldn't let the food sit on the bottom too long. If you don't see the shrimp eaten I would get it out of there. Make sure and do tests on your water. Usually I sit when I feed them and watch to see if they eat most of it. One thing I leave overnight is a algae wafer, they like to pic on it as it softens but whatever isn't eaten I remove in the morning.

vip168
10-15-2008, 08:52 PM
Some closeup pictures for today.... They're approximately 9-10 days old now.

ORP reading has maintained at a stable 205mV with pH of 7.8.
Control water from the faucet (deep well) has an Orp reading of 250mV.

I have a small submersible pump with the intake fitted to a foam filter. This is turned on at night to filter the uneaten particles. The pump flow is gentle enough as not to suck in the fry. Water is pumped to a filtration system placed overhead.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_898150225l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_325827999l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_691005248l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_472764011l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_295114780l.jpg

Lori Jo
10-15-2008, 08:56 PM
Great pictures and an exciting thread. Thank you!

tyco4357
10-15-2008, 08:58 PM
I could never get those good pictures, how do you do it?

Koigrl
10-15-2008, 09:00 PM
tyco, thanks so much. they love that shrimp. where does one get algae wafers? (i've got perfectly good algae growing in the mud pond, but don't want to import any bad bugs.) will take that shrimp out tonight.

chris, keep that alien invasion coming!
cannot wait to see how they turn out.
max

vip168
10-15-2008, 09:06 PM
I could never get those good pictures, how do you do it?


good lighting... and camera settings... the pictures are still blurry though.. the fry keep moving.. so I need to adjust the camera shutter speed.


I'm using Canon SX1000 8megapixel cam... I have it on manual focus.. doing Macro will make results less accurate since the camera doesn't know if it should focus on the fry or the area behind it. I'm using a florescent emergency light as supplemental lighting.. this allows the camera to work at higher shutter speeds and minimize blur...

Try taking lots of pictures also.. and sort out the good ones... a little image enhancement here and there also to improve the picture..

tyco4357
10-15-2008, 10:54 PM
do you zoom in when you take the pic or do you resize pic?

vip168
10-16-2008, 12:55 AM
I have the camera about 2-4 inches from the subject.... then i just crop and resize the picture... zooming makes it harder to use the manual focus so I don't use it. It's pretty tricky to keep the fry focused as they keep moving.

afarmboy
10-16-2008, 02:35 AM
This is an awesome thread. I really hope you stay with it. I hope to be able to do this next year, so I'll learn alot from your thread. Thanks!:clap:

vip168
10-16-2008, 05:04 AM
I'm not sure if this is normal but I've observed the ff:

1. 3-8% (approx) of the fry didn't make it... They're floating and are colored pale white.

2. The rest seem to be eating the dead fry. I haven't seen any eat the live ones though... Am I supposed to separate Tobi's at this stage? (the fry are 11 days old).

I found these as i was siphoning the debris from the pond bottom.... (i'm thinking these fry died a few days ago .. and I just found them now)

I ran a battery of tests on the pond... here are the results...

pH = 7.8 stable
Ammonia = 0 ppm
Nitrite = .2 ppm
Orp = 205mV
Temp = 27.8c

I did 25% gradual water change today.. this increased ORP readings to 236mV.

Question... is it too early to feed them crushed flake food? I don't know if my feeding them with ground up flakes caused this.... The flakes were ground till they were as small as powder.

Currently stopping the flakes and going back to artemia and daphnia just incase...I've also started up a foam filter connected to a pump and overhead filter chambers to suck up the uneaten food... still have to siphon the rest of the debris from the pond bottom.

Anyone know what's causing the koi deaths? Is this something that just happens no matter what I do? Any insight on this would be helpful. Thanks!

vip168
10-16-2008, 05:17 AM
I just remembered Tyco4357 mention that 50-60% of them will die off.... :faint:

I just hope it wasn't the flakes I fed them...

I've probably scooped up around 40-50 of them already.

tyco4357
10-16-2008, 02:05 PM
I don't normally start them on flakes yet even tho I make mine into a powder also. You have to keep the water perfect with the readings. Any nitrite will kill them. I would stay off the flake for a while. Do not overfeed. Just give them a little three times a day or even five times just don't over feed. They cannot smell the food. They practically have to bump into it. That is why live baby brine shrimp is good. The large brine shrimp is too big and no nutritional value. The only time brine shrimp has nutrition is when they are just hatched. Basically anything that falls to the bottom is going to have to be cleaned out. I would take the freeze dried daphnia and and also crush that up. It floats and will soak up water. You have to be careful what you feed them they can choke. Also, don't worry, this is Mother Nature's way. I usually end up with about 200-400 babies in a 400 gal baby vat and I always lose 60 percent. It's gonna happen, nothing you can do about it unless you have a BIG pond to put them in. You said you have about 1000, well there you go. No way will they all survive in that small area. I do not take all the eggs out of the pond, I only take about 2 or 3 pieces of algae that are loaded with eggs. Some will survive in the pond. Dont be surprised if you find out next year you have a few. I watch where I see the two that I want to spawn go at it, wait about 1 minute, then take them out. The sperm has 30 seconds to hit the egg.

femmeartist51
10-17-2008, 03:06 PM
[QUOTE=vip168;1415138]Thanks!



Regarding siphoning the tank... i'm scared that I might siphon their food and natural algae stuff that they seem to be munching on... maybe when they are old enough to eat flakes.. i'll do that.

Hi there,
Last year, we had way too many fry. We did get a sponge filter to help filter the tank. It worked great. The fry can't get sucked into any thing. The sponge is great, catches alot of stuff. We changed out the water every few days. I hate to say it we used a bucket and then dumped the bucket out. It is very hard on the back. We tried siphoning, we didn't like that. So we went back to the old fashioned way of using a bucket. Good luck with your new babies. Lynda

tyco4357
10-17-2008, 06:14 PM
don't be scared you are going to siphone their natural food, you need to get the food off the bottom, don't let it sit! They are not going to eat the food if it is old. I have 4 sponge filters in my tank plus a regular filter plus a lot of areation. Still have to get the stuff off the bottom. You would be surprised at the mess these little guys make. You will see it when you start siphoning.
You will be glad that you did and remember to siphon the water into a container that is light colored so you can see if you sucked up any babies. I take them out and put them back in. It is up to you but you will have more losses if you don't.

vip168
10-17-2008, 08:03 PM
I've started taking out the stuff at the bottom but there are still some left. I'll buy a proper siphon device today to clean it out.

Pics Update...

Day +15.. (Fry are 11-12 days old)

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_839506192l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_202218036l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_583610203l.jpg

tyco4357
10-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Good, glad to hear it! It will really help. Did you get a lot of stuff out? Hope that you saw what I meant. They are looking good!

vip168
10-18-2008, 10:29 PM
I siphoned most of the debris already...

Pics for today... seeing uneven growth.


The Fry are just about 2 weeks now.


http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_624048760l.jpg

tyco4357
10-20-2008, 09:41 AM
I see some Tobies starting there....Keep an eye out. I would start taking the bigger ones out. The algae wafers you can get at any Pet Store. They are greeen discs. Very nutritious, You will see a picture of a Pleco on the front. Usually come in an orange packet. I order these in big bags. My koi go nuts for them. Just take one and break in half. It will sink to the bottom but they will pic on it. See how they like it. After two days take out whatever ins't eaten. They may eat the whole thing!

Koigrl
10-20-2008, 10:12 AM
tyco, a senior koiphener/breeder told me that he's learned that tobies are big babies who don't get enuf protein, so they take it. can chris feed some form of protein to his spawn without hurting them or contaminating the water?

tyco4357
10-20-2008, 10:45 AM
The algae wafers are great protein. Great for all the babies. I don't know if that is true about not getting enough protein. I am not a professional breeder so I would not know. I know that at this stage they are very hungry and will eat their own siblings if able to. Live food is the best protein they can get right now.

Koigrl
10-20-2008, 10:54 AM
right. i forgot about the daphia, etc.

vip168
10-20-2008, 12:05 PM
I've separated the larger ones into another tank (an 8ft dia Intex pool). With the low stocking rates and abundant food, I hope they won't eat each other.

i'm currently feeding Sera Micron (just found a store selling this). Also feeding Daphnia cubes... I think some of them are big enough to eat the powdered flakes already.. will hold that off till daphnia runs out.. then i'll switch to the ground up flakes.

I'm seeing really huge disparities in growth size.. some of them look like they're only a week old.

I have a sponge filtration system running at night only so it doesn't suck up the food during the day.

tyco4357
10-20-2008, 01:57 PM
I keep all four of mine running constantly. I do not turn them off. The suction is so little. That is why they are used for fry. Just keep testing the water and make sure the readings are perfect.

tyco4357
10-20-2008, 10:09 PM
We are waiting for more pics, soon I hope! I think raising fry is one of the hardest things to do but I love it.

vipldy
10-20-2008, 10:31 PM
We are waiting for more pics, soon I hope! I think raising fry is one of the hardest things to do but I love it.
Hard isn't the word:no: It is a learning curve thats for sure:yes:

Marie

vip168
10-21-2008, 12:44 AM
Images for today:

Approximately 16 days from the date they hatched. It's becoming harder to take close up pictures since they swim away when I place the camera near the water.


http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_906455543l.jpg
Closeup

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_324876865l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_834045403l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_480907329l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_485257246l.jpg


http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_749686064l.jpg
Siphoned the bottom but can't get rid of all the debris.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_319190634l.jpg
This was the spawning pool... currently using it to house Tobi. I will also use this to hold the solid colored koi during the first cull.. just incase I make mistake sorting them out.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_709943623l.jpg
A temporary pond housing 5-6" koi and some larger koi that I don't want to keep in the main pond.. will be transferring them to a mudpond I'm making.

tyco4357
10-21-2008, 08:52 AM
It looks very good in the baby vat. Much better. You should be ok. You can never get it all and that is fine. A little doesn't hurt. They are looking good. Did you loose a lot? It should start slowing down a little now. Mine swim away from the camera too. You are doing good! You are making a mud pond too? Wow, that's a lot of work. Good luck. How big is your main pond? Would love to see some pictures! Were you able to find the algae wafers? Don't forget to cover the baby pool so no birds get in and take your little ones! Looks like you got everything under control. :yes: :yes:

You tend to get better at this everytime. Next spawn won't be sooo difficult once you know what to do.

vip168
10-21-2008, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement :yes:

I'd say that I lost around 10-15% of them.

Don't see as many fatalities, only saw one today.

We're building a house in the mountains which has a natural pond area. I just dug it a bit deeper and tried placing some koi there.. I'll be making a proper mud pond to match the landscaping.


Here's a picture of the existing mud pond...

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_270471751l.jpg
I have around 20+ koi in there (some of not so good quality though) .. they seem to be doing well. This pond is around 18ft x 12ft and is only around 1 to 1.5ft deep


http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_482581200l.jpg
Picture of the deck and the existing mud pond. Planning on constructing a concrete pond near the deck.. maybe around 30ft x 20ft and 5-6ft deep. The existing mud pond will be used as a fishing hole for Tilapia. Further down the area, I'll have a growout mud pond .. around 25 x 15 ft at 4ft deep.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_999872229l.jpg
Here's a picture of my main pond..... I know it's small..and shallow.
Had this constructed around 3 years ago when I was still new to the hobby... pond dimension is 8-9ft dia.. (oval) and 3-3.5ft deep. A bottom drain
connects to brush filter chambers then to a big chamber with jap mats for bio filtration. This is pretty crude but seems to be effective in keeping the water clear. Total system volume including filter chambers is around 1500-2000 gallons. Pump system cycles all the water around once per hour.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_980421605l.jpg

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_163824762l.jpg
The Female Tancho Sanke on the upper left is the one I used for breeding.
One of the male is the Tancho on the bottom left. The other male is the doitsu kohaku shown on the pics above and below... they're all pretty small in size... I wanted to start learning how to breed by using small koi... maybe I will breed the bigger ones next time.

http://photos-251.friendster.com/e1/photos/15/23/2303251/1_226326792l.jpg
Some residents of the Pond... it's hard to get pics with the glare...

I dont think birds will be a problem here... we only have those short stumpy birds... they'll surely drown in the pool. I'll try to find those algae wafers..
I'm anxious to get that mud pond started so I can start breeding the next batch.... this time I think I'll just feed them sera micron the first week.. then micron + daphnia for the next week.. then daphnia and flakes on the third week.

tyco4357
10-21-2008, 06:09 PM
Very nice pond, and yes it is a bit small and crowded. Just make sure you have enough areation. That will make all the difference in the world.

vip168
10-22-2008, 10:59 PM
Pics @ 2 weeks +4 days


I'm seeing some patterns develop... need some help on culling..

I read that the first cull will be for deformities and solid colors.

I plan to start culling when they are a month old.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2101.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2102.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2103.jpg
Should I cull fry that look like this?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2104.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2105.jpg
Is this pattern considered as all black?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2106.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2107.jpg

tyco4357
10-23-2008, 09:47 AM
How is everything going? I hope things have settled down now as far as loss is concerned. You will still be losing more but not so badly as before. I cull for deformity and missing gill plates. After that I try to keep all the dark ones together and the different colored ones together. They will be constantly changing colors so I don't like to cull anything until I can see more clearly what they are going to be. Luckily, this time I didn't have to, Mother Nature did it for me. You are doing fantastic in your pics of growth. Wish I could take those kinda pics. Mine always came out blurry. This should definitely be used as a learning thread for those that want to see exactly what goes on starting from eggs. I am so happy you are able to do this. I wish when I started out doing this I had something to go by like this. Would have helped alot. As far as the dark one, can't say for sure yet exactly what colors are going to emerge if any. Need to wait a little more to find out. I bet those Tobies are growing really well!!! I have gotten some pretty Tobies but they all seem to be one solid color. I always wondered if that was a throwback gene from the original carp. Mother Nature is always trying to get things back in balance again.
Looking for more pics! Keep them coming!! We love this thread. I know I do especially.

Also, in nature, the baby fish tend to be dark to be able to hide from predators and that is why I would wait till they get some more coloring.

afarmboy
10-23-2008, 11:22 AM
We love this thread. I know I do especially.



Ditto.:yes:
I check it everyday...

vip168
10-23-2008, 12:01 PM
I spent more time transferring Tobies to the pool today... was really tempted to start culling but held myself back... one more week.. patience is a virtue :rolleyes:

Since I have a lot of space in the second pool, for the 1st month cull, I plan to just cull out the deformities then separate the ones that I think are solid in color.. just so I can see them develop.

I've been browsing around Koiphen and other forums and websites and haven't seen anyone document the Koi Fry development in pictures. All I had to go on was just articles from websites and very few pictures from books like Koi Kichi. So I thought I'd start this thread... hoping breeders who've been there before can share some pointers... I'm glad you guys like it... this is indeed a learning experience. I'll keep the pics coming.... can't wait for the fry to start showing Kohaku patterns..

@tyco...

when do you think I should start culling them? Currently, they seem pretty small to sort out...

Also, on the subject of growth... Koi Kichi says.. by around a month they reach 12mm (0.5in) , 2months 25mm (1in), 3 months 50mm (2in) then by the 4th and 5th month.. they should be around 10cm+ (4 inches )

based on your experience in raising fry, are these numbers accurate? or is it too high an estimate? The book shows the fry grown out in mud ponds... might be the cause for them growing so fast.

vip168
10-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Just wanna share this picture.. finally got a clear picture of the main pond.. this was in the late afternoon so there isn't as much glare....

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/IMG_4271.jpg

My favorite in this collection is the Goshiki with the horn like pattern on his head...(I call him Demon) and the Hi Utsuri with the Zebra like stripes. :yes:


Most of these were Koi bought when I was still new to the hobby.. didn't even know what a Kohaku was then..

tyco4357
10-23-2008, 12:54 PM
Me neither. I didn't know anyhing either. You have some really nice looking fish. Pond looks good. As far as culling, I am not a professional breeder, so I wait until I can see the deformities with the bodies and the gill plates. Cull them first. Maybe still be a little small to tell. After that I let them grow. Depending on the size of your pool or vat will determine how fast they grow and the areation. More areation means faster growing fish. If the vat is crowded they will grow slower. Mine never grow as fast as they are supposed to. If I were to put a few in the pond when they get around 2 inc they would grow a lot faster. More for them to eat and much better areation.

You can take one or two and put them in and see the difference when they get a little bigger.

This is a constant learning experience. No one ever knows all the answers.

Did you ever find the algae wafers? They have a pleco on the front of the bag usually. They are green round disks about the size of a dime. They are very nutritious. My fish go nuts for them. Just break a little piece off and let sink to the bottom, you will see some go for it and pick at it. Next day, take out whatever is leftover.

I think mudponds are basically used for the fish to enhance their coloring and skin tone based on the food avaiable in mud ponds and the mud itself. Fish grow bigger faster because of more room and areation. There may be some genetic babies that just don't grow that fast either.

deg1952
10-24-2008, 07:44 AM
... and the Hi Utsuri with the Zebra like stripes. :yes:

That's the first one that caught my eye--Beautiful fish. Thanks for taking time to document the progress of your fry. It's very informative.

vip168
10-25-2008, 12:55 AM
2 weeks and 6 days old...

Would anyone know when the Hi start showing? All I'm seeing is what looks like sumi patterns

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/23Dark.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/23Pale.jpg
Is this Hi showing up on this Fry?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/23Patterns.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/23Small.jpg

They don't sell those algae wafers where I live.
Currently feeding them grounded up flakes.. they seem to like it.

tyco4357
10-25-2008, 01:04 AM
I think you are going to have some very interesting babies. Give it time it's still hard to tell what kind of colorings they are going to have. Impatience is easy in this hobby...LOL They are looking good tho, I feel very happy for you that you came this far so well!! It does look like some coloring is starting to develop.

vip168
10-25-2008, 03:33 PM
Here's a picture of the biggest fry I could find.

This Tobi is around 16-18mm. In comparison, most of the other fry range from 8mm - 12mm. (tried measuring them with a vernier caliper)



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/Tobi2.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/Tobi.jpg

tyco4357
10-25-2008, 08:01 PM
Nice looking! Interesting pattern.!!

vip168
10-25-2008, 08:58 PM
As I was feeding them today, I noticed a rather large fry that had its tail eaten off..

I transfered what looked like 3-4 unusually large fry (Tobi?) to the other pond.

Regarding Tobi (cannibal koi), is their killer instinct determined by their superior size or is it a natural instinct that develops even in medium size koi?

Super Kindai
10-25-2008, 09:13 PM
>Would anyone know when the Hi start showing? All I'm seeing is what looks like sumi patterns
All these yellow ones are Hi.

> 2 weeks and 6 days old...
These baby fries are too small except tobi, because they don't have enough food.
if there is enough food, the fry grow 1mm+ /per day in average. So, it supposed to be 3 -4 cm in one month.

In general, 99%+ of tobi is no good unfortunately, not worth enough to keep, and mostly a male.

Midorigoi
10-26-2008, 06:16 PM
I think this thread is a good learning experince for everyone. Vip168, you'll see next year this will happen, and you'll know everything to do and have awesome growth rates hopefully. :yes:

tyco4357
10-26-2008, 10:56 PM
This is only something that happens with the fry as they are developing usually. You won't see larger koi eating young fry unless it is by mistake. When a small koi gets to be about 2 inc. it is pretty safe to say it won't get eaten. Exactly when they stop doing this I am not sure.

tyco4357
10-29-2008, 12:16 AM
Well we haven't seen any pictures lately, how is everything going?

vip168
10-29-2008, 02:05 AM
Here's some pictures for today... 3 weeks + 3 days old.

I'm seeing really uneven growth rates.. some of them are still around 6-8mm


This one is around 15-17mm.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/2716mm.jpg

tyco4357
11-01-2008, 09:15 AM
They are looking good. Hope everything is going good for you!

vip168
11-02-2008, 04:19 AM
Any tips on culling the fry?

(Female tancho sanke, male Tancho and Kohaku)


I'm having difficulties distinguishing Koi with patterns from the solid colored ones. They're currently one month old. Is it the right time to start culling>?

Limpet
11-02-2008, 10:34 AM
Culling can start at any time. When I started my first culling, I waited about three weeks. I started seperating the larger ones out of the bunch. I was told these were tobies and that they were eating the other fry.
This I'm sure is the norm, but on the other hand you need to be careful that their not just koi growing at a faster rate.
Basiclly what I looked for was missing fins, missing gill plates, bent tails, deformed mouths.

tyco4357
11-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Unless you are a breeder it's hard to tell what to look for...I personally let them grow to see what I am getting. There are so many color changes going on with them at this stage that I don't touch. Just cull the deformities.

Super Kindai
11-02-2008, 01:03 PM
Any tips on culling the fry?

(Female tancho sanke, male Tancho and Kohaku)


I'm having difficulties distinguishing Koi with patterns from the solid colored ones. They're currently one month old. Is it the right time to start culling>?

One month old is right time if they grow normal sizes because fry usually grow by 5cm or so in mud pond of pro-breeders.....

It is possible but really hard to cull under 2cm since Hi pattern is not clearly appeared yet.
On the other hand, it becomes much easier when they reach over 3-4cm.

However, you can cull completly white ones and also deformed ones.

tyco4357
11-02-2008, 09:26 PM
Wow!! you really did good with those guys!! Had a lot of survivors. I see some nice ones in there. You might want to separate all the solid dark ones from the colored for now.

Super Kindai
11-03-2008, 04:23 AM
Wow!! you really did good with those guys!! Had a lot of survivors. I see some nice ones in there. You might want to separate all the solid dark ones from the colored for now.


Hi, tyco4357
Actually, the second picture is Showa fry, about 40 days old, last September. So, we kept all the solid dark ones.......:D:
the fry could not grow to same size because we could not prepare enough Daphnia prior to the breeding due to a cold weather at that time. So, we separated large ones from the small ones and culled some Shiro muji, Aka muji and Kohaku.

First picture is about one month old Kohaku fry and it was taken last June. these were too small to cull as a real 1st culling but we had a bit too many this year so culled some Shiro muji in order to reduce the population.

tyco4357
11-03-2008, 11:40 AM
How do you prepare Daphnia? I used he freeze dried but would much rather use live? Is there a special way to do this?

Super Kindai
11-03-2008, 07:51 PM
How do you prepare Daphnia? I used he freeze dried but would much rather use live? Is there a special way to do this?


In my case, we use Daphnia which have been naturally grown every year in a small Rubbermaid container (250 Gal..?) of water plants in my back yard. When a breeding time comes, I take some of these Daphnia as seeds and put them into a koi fry' growing pond prior to breeding koi. As you may know, chicken manure is traditionally used to increase Daphnia as their food and also dry or live "Yeast" is getting popular and it works well.
It usually takes a couple of weeks, depend on weather/temperature, to get an enormous amount of Daphnia in my climate and if that happens successfully, then koi breeding is a piece of cake for us since food (Daphnia) for koi fry is available at all the time 24/7.......:yes:
then, in order to maintain Daphnia population with koi fry for a few week, we add some chicken manure or live yeast occasionally into a growing pond.

tyco4357
11-03-2008, 11:18 PM
How do you start Daphnia? I googled it and it seems like a long process. I would like to start some so in Spring I will be ready for when my fish spawn.

Super Kindai
11-04-2008, 04:36 PM
How do you start Daphnia? I googled it and it seems like a long process. I would like to start some so in Spring I will be ready for when my fish spawn.

I think that Daphnia came with the water plants or seeds were in soil of the water plants which we purchased at a local nursery store long time ago.
I still found that there are a lot of them, the tiny dots in the attached picture, in my water plants container today.
It should be anywhere in a marshy place of lake, a backwater place of riverside, etc...... :rolleyes:

tyco4357
11-04-2008, 07:26 PM
Well that sure looks like a lot of Daphnia. Maybe I can find something like that somehwere. Sure would help with the fry!!!

tyco4357
11-07-2008, 11:51 AM
How is everything going with the babies? Would love to see some updated pics!! Some of the Tobies and some of the regular fry.

tyco4357
11-17-2008, 03:32 PM
Haven't heard from you lately! How are the babies doing? Got anymore recent pics?

tyco4357
12-17-2008, 11:35 PM
Hey VP168, haven't heard from you in the long time? What's going on with the babies? We would love to see some pics!

JayInOz
12-18-2008, 05:45 AM
More pictures please! :yes: Jay(InOz).

vip168
12-18-2008, 07:42 AM
Hi guys.. i've been busy with other things the past few weeks.

It's nightime here...I'll post some pics tomorrow... they're all doing great... some are still quite small though... some are around 2-3" already...

Regards,

Vip

vip168
12-18-2008, 11:28 PM
Some pics... 2 months and 3 weeks.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4384.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4385.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4386.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4387.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4388.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4389.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/vip_cuenco/Koi/IMG_4390.jpg

These are some pics I took before culling.... I've culled around 60% of them

tyco4357
12-19-2008, 12:47 AM
Looking good! Keep up the good work! How many do you think you have now?

vip168
12-19-2008, 06:29 AM
Post cull, I probably have around 300-500 left.

I culled out the solid colored fry and those with predominantly black patterns.

Some are quite small while others are around 50cm... am I doing anything wrong? All of them seem to be feeding on the flakes I'm giving.

Koigrl
12-19-2008, 10:12 AM
i have a mixed-sized tank of fry. suddenly some of them went gigantic, others are pee-wees. i got a small length of plastic coated chicken wire and formed a cylindar. attached the cylindar to a flat stone on the bottom with wire staples. top of the cylindar is higher than water line. the smaller fry can swim into the cylindar, big guys, not. the littles hang out in the cylindar. it's their club house and where they get fed.
brainstorm for me. could be everyone knows this!
it looks like a bird feeder and maybe a bird feeder would do the trick if the metal didn't leach into the water.

tyco4357
12-19-2008, 11:38 AM
Now that's an idea! You seem to be doing good! Can't wait for when they get bigger!

Boxerluver
12-19-2008, 11:37 PM
Very insightful thread! I enjoyed looking at the growth pics. Learned alot from this thread, thanks for posting!!