PDA

View Full Version : Please judge this longfin shiro bekko



Ethan25
09-17-2008, 05:28 PM
25" with fins...scraggly pectoral fins IMO, but otherwise, what do you think? Picture is from spring. small hi spots are now gone. This fish was 2/3 red when I bought it in 2004.

Ethan25
09-17-2008, 05:29 PM
one more

rainblood
09-17-2008, 05:29 PM
Kind of off subject - LF do you include the tail in your 25" measurement? ie, tip of nose to tip of tail?

Ethan25
09-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Kind of off subject - LF do you include the tail in your 25" measurement? ie, tip of nose to tip of tail?

I do.

:D:


I don't think it is proper to (officially), but in the case of mine where I am trying to make myself feel better so as to boost my ego, I do.

:D:

Just trying to give everyone an idea of the size of this one...tail is my favorite part about her.

rainblood
09-17-2008, 05:31 PM
Hopefully all the red disappears. The white looks very good. Clean head. Wow. I can't believe it... It's a decent LF.
It looks like its going to be a football koi, though. Is body conformation used in judging LF?

Ethan25
09-17-2008, 05:36 PM
Hopefully all the red disappears. The white looks very good. Clean head. Wow. I can't believe it... It's a decent LF.
It looks like its going to be a football koi, though. Is body conformation used in judging LF?

It was pregnant during the picture. This was taken in APril after a warm spring. It's belly grew like crazy. I'll attempt a later fall picture to show it now. EVERY night, it swims in the current from the waterfall, as though it is trying to lose weight. It has seriously lost most of it's "baby weight". Never spawned, I think just absorbed the eggs.

Still has a bit of a belly, but less of the football look.

Graham
09-17-2008, 07:38 PM
I've been told that there are new judging rules coming out for LF's. They will be judged by basically the same standards as are regular koi.

LF's are measured to the base of the tail and currently are in 2 show sizes below 16'' and above 16''

Dan Phillips had a fantastic looking long fin chagoi at the MAKC show last weekend

http://i.pbase.com/o2/65/544265/1/103047282.qyeyZLaj.MAKC_08_0102.JPG

rainblood
09-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Those are some of the widest pec fins that I've seen on a LF...

premster
09-18-2008, 12:06 AM
I am not sure how the body shape standard can be the same as a regular koi .

Ethan this is one fish u have I like minus the little yellow spots , the dreaded spot disease . Lovely fins for a long fin and a nice polka dot patten and good shiro.

Graham
09-18-2008, 05:16 AM
I am not sure how the body shape standard can be the same as a regular koi .

Ethan this is one fish u have I like minus the little yellow spots , the dreaded spot disease . Lovely fins for a long fin and a nice polka dot patten and good shiro.

That is were the breeders are taking LF. The same standards will apply, so if you have a football with fins, even in regular koi, it won't make the cut.

Tarheel Fish
09-18-2008, 08:14 AM
The New Guide Lines Will Be Coming Out In Koi Usa Soon. These Are Long Fins So Fins Will Be The 1st That Judges Look At Then Shape, They Are Sold Tip Of Nose To End Of Tail For Size, Some Shows Measure To Base Of Tail While Others Measure To End Of Tail. During The Akba Show We Measured To End Of Tail

Graham
09-18-2008, 08:47 AM
Last weekend at MAKC and then at Koi America where I benched the majority of the fish, along with the Orlando shows they are benched to the base of the tail.

On a good long fin the lenght of the tail can really mask the actual size of the fish. One thing that I really think they need to do is make more size catagories. The over 16''/under'' 16 BL can really put some fish at a dis-advantage. My impression from Peter Ponizo was that this was being looked at and they will probably end up in the same size breakdown as regular koi

premster
09-18-2008, 08:55 AM
This is just an observation . but the 3.5 of the head to the base of the tail size conformation does not look like it will work for LF's shouldnt they be more elongated may be 4 or 4.5 even . I wouldnt be an expert on this cus the only LF I have looks like a foot ball with fins .. lol :D:

Graham
09-18-2008, 09:19 AM
Not sure what you're talking about? The sizes used in most koi shows are Size1/under 8''; Size 2/8''-12''; Size 3/12''-16''; Size 4/16''-20''; Size 5/20''-24''; Size 6 24''-28'' and Size 7 over 28'' This is for overall lenght.

Were as LF are under 16'' and over 16'' excluding tail

Now these sizes may be adjusted by the show committee but in looking back at the shows I've attended the only variation to these was in Atlanta in 2000.

Ethan25
09-18-2008, 10:02 AM
I am not sure how the body shape standard can be the same as a regular koi .

Ethan this is one fish u have I like minus the little yellow spots , the dreaded spot disease . Lovely fins for a long fin and a nice polka dot patten and good shiro.

hi is gone now actually....the last of it faded this past summer (this picture was from spring). It took awhile, as a majority of the fish used to be red.

gander
09-18-2008, 10:50 AM
I got a big male that looks a lot like that one. Mine is just a mutt though.

premster
09-18-2008, 10:51 AM
I dont mean the actual size . I mean the way you judge if the koi has too long of a body or foot ball shaped etc . I have seen this 3 1/2 thing being talked about for good head to body size ratio.

Graham
09-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Ok I see what you mean now. Needless to say that is a very basic guide and it would apply to any fish, regular or LF. They still need a decent body confirmation and that's what the breeders are aiming for.

A peacock wants the biggest tail feathers he can get but if he's got a chicken little body, he ain't going to score :)

Carl
09-18-2008, 11:23 AM
The problem I see with applying regular koi standards to longfins is that it is an entirely different aesthetic. Long fins don't necessarily look good on a standard koi's body, IMHO.

premster
09-18-2008, 11:29 AM
Ganders fish is nice too

premster
09-18-2008, 11:31 AM
The problem I see with applying regular koi standards to longfins is that it is an entirely different aesthetic. Long fins don't necessarily look good on a standard koi's body, IMHO.

Have to agree with Carl . Nicer longfin's bodys look different . I dont know if it is visual illusion or not .

Graham
09-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Have to start somewhere and a football with fins isn't the starting place. Dan's fish has excellant body...it looks balanced. Gary's fish is a male and looks it, long thin body...fins or no fins. That fish would probably do well in a show

Susan Reed
09-18-2008, 12:32 PM
If not I not mistaken, when they explained to me about the fins they said the top part of the fin should not be short but long and blending in to the fin...if you can understand what I'm talking about....here's 2 pictures I grabbed off the web to show what I'm talking about.....

Ethan25
09-18-2008, 01:53 PM
Have to start somewhere and a football with fins isn't the starting place. Dan's fish has excellant body...it looks balanced. Gary's fish is a male and looks it, long thin body...fins or no fins. That fish would probably do well in a show

who are dan and gary?

Graham
09-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Dan Philips, owner of the LF that I posted and Gary is Gander

premster
09-18-2008, 05:23 PM
I cannot see dan's fish . I dont know if anybody else can .

Graham
09-18-2008, 05:35 PM
I cannot see dan's fish . I dont know if anybody else can .

You can't see the pic in Post #7???

Rain could Post #8

''...Those are some of the widest pec fins that I've seen on a LF...''

Susan Reed
09-18-2008, 05:36 PM
You can't see the pic in Post #7???

Rain could

:no:

Carl
09-18-2008, 05:37 PM
You can't see the pic in Post #7???

Rain could Post #8

''...Those are some of the widest pec fins that I've seen on a LF...''

Now that you mention it, I can't see a pic in that post either.

premster
09-18-2008, 05:37 PM
:no: . I thought it was cus of the work proxy , but I cant see it from home either .

Graham
09-18-2008, 05:38 PM
Hmmmmm it's still there for me...anyway try this

premster
09-18-2008, 05:42 PM
wow , nice cag that ..

rufftie
09-19-2008, 06:45 AM
at makc i was talking to some breeders of LFs. they are going to breed for the "pork chop" type fins ala the above chagoi instead of the long flowing fins. it appears that is what the judges want to see in a LF as the long flowy fins tended to look ragged and stressed at shows. apparently there will still be flowy fish for the masses, but pork chop fins will be the standard for showing. at least that was the chatter at the show.

koi4u2c
09-19-2008, 07:11 AM
Attention Breeders:

People who love butterfly/longfin koi love them for those long flowing fins.

Breed those short fat stubby fins if you want, but who buys the fish? Lovers of longfins or judges?

I have always looked/purchased the longest flowing fins I could choose from and I do not think I am the only one.

If you want to sell the most longfins breed for those long flowing fins and let others breed pork chop fins. See who sells the most.

Judges call some of the fins tattered, I call them fringed. There are some tattered ones, but good ones with good care are not tattered. Some are fringed and some are not.

I have several with thick long fins that are not tattered or fringed.

I simply do not like many of the long fins that are being bred today. That is why I am starting to breed my own.

Ok, Longfin Lovers, what kind of fins do you like?

Carl
09-19-2008, 08:37 AM
I think the problem is that the people who like longfins the least are the ones setting the standards for showing. On the other hand, if you make the show standard as similar to regular koi as possible, you don't need to train your judges regarding two types of confirmation, etc. So, on the one hand the trend in shows seems to be getting away from what longfin lovers want, but on the other hand, can you really ask koi judges to master two entirely different sets of standards? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

koi4u2c
09-19-2008, 06:58 PM
Carl,

I suspect you may have hit the nail on the head. A lot of those same people don't think longfins should be shown at the same places as koi, but yet they seem to want them to look more like koi.

The differences are what make longfins unique and beautiful. And I agree they should never be shown against or with koi, but should be judged by their own standards which should be entirely different from koi standards.

I wish I had some good pictures of what I think is the perfect longfin/butterfly. Perhaps the perfect one hasn't been bred yet.

I have one that I think is headed in that direction, but it is not a good picture and he is not my perfect ideal in a longfin but he is getting close.

This is a yellow ginrin. A male and slightly tattered from spawning.

rufftie
09-20-2008, 07:19 AM
but on the other hand, can you really ask koi judges to master two entirely different sets of standards? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.[/QUOTE]

yes, you can expect that. think of a dog show. a judge has to know, and master many breed standards. and it doesn't matter, or in a perfect world it doesn't, if their favorite breed is great danes and they're judging terriers.

BruceP
09-20-2008, 08:34 AM
I agree with you Rufftie. You certainly can expect them to learn a different set of standards. Why would they be judged by koi standards?

tyco4357
09-20-2008, 09:33 AM
I am truly a butterfly lover and I feel the longer the fin, the more beautiful and flowing the fish. I am trying to just have butterflys in my pond, both in goldies and koi. There are beautiful standard fins also, but it's the coloring that makes them beautiful not necessrily the fins. I have to say there is a difference between longfins and butterflies. Butterflies have the much longer fin and do tend to get that tattered look, where the longfins do not get that tattered look but the fins are longer than standard.

dick benbow
09-20-2008, 09:48 AM
Reading thru this thread, It's pretty obvious that there does need to be a standard. Like Graham, I do a lot of benching in the pacific northwest. Our rules are 12 inch over or under and measured tip of nose to base of tail. Like standard Koi with a closer size increment for fairness as they develop, with the popularity of LF this eventually will have to be done as well. And actually there are two very different body shapes for LF depending upon what they were developed from genetically. Lately it has been fun to see the effort put into pattern development. Do you think we will in America ever adopt the japanese word for them or will we stick with Longfin?

tyco4357
09-20-2008, 10:06 AM
I know they are called "Water Dragons" but I don't know that Japanese word for them. I looked it up and seems to be Sui-Ryuu. Is that correct?

Toragoi
09-20-2008, 02:21 PM
The problem I see with applying regular koi standards to longfins is that it is an entirely different aesthetic. Long fins don't necessarily look good on a standard koi's body, IMHO.

I agree. Longfins with portly bodies look like fat women in voluminous Hawaiian mumu's--they have flow but the grace just doesn't translate....:D: Regular koi are just not supposed to have long flowing fins. It just doesn't look right. At least to me....:rolleyes:

koi4u2c
09-20-2008, 03:06 PM
Some longfins also have beautiful patterns,colors and scalation that should not be penalized at a show because they are not a standard nishikigoi variety or pattern.

Also color in the fins makes them even more beautiful. I even like the double long barbels and pompom nostrils, which sometimes also have contrasting colors.

Maybe separate judges should judge the longfins. These should be people who love longfins for their unique beauty.

I love to see a large dorsal fin waived around like a sail or flag. They remind me of exotic dancers waiving their fins around like veils.

rufftie
09-20-2008, 04:43 PM
on kodama's site, they call the longfin hirenaga. i prefer the term butterfly koi, and think that or longfin will be the american terminology.