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koiman1950
08-21-2008, 08:52 PM
Okay, for fun, tear these apart! I picked these two to be grown in the mud through Russell. The Showa is 9" and the Kohaku is 12". As I don't currently have a Sakai Kohaku, I thought I'd give this one a shot. If I can afford it, I will keep them both at the farm for at least another year to two years.

jonathan
08-21-2008, 09:05 PM
The showa is just one I wouldn't buy. I really don't like the kohaku pattern but is the black filled in right id buy this koi. I think that if the black does fill in just right youll have your self a really nice koi. But I be live it would make a nice koi to watch and see the progress of the koi over the next couple years. I do see a Decent koi but nothing show quality but that's just me and I'm no expert.

The kohaku is OK i really don't like how its smaller pattern is in the back. I think I do see the marten spot disconnecting from the pattern thought. Which in my eyes would add interest to the koi so that's a plus. But over all I like the kohaku a lot just due to me seeing more potential then the showa. I don't know why but to me I see a good kohaku in the making once again I'm no expert I'm just a ponder

Over all I think you got two really good '' Project'' koi. Id like to see these koi after they come out of the mud.

nguyen4
08-21-2008, 09:57 PM
Mike I ilke your Showa, it have nice body, pattern is nice too.

dick benbow
08-21-2008, 10:14 PM
I quess I can't comment about the patterns cause in the end, atleast with toshio's Koi when they get big, it's the other things that count.

The showa will have a stronger black than anticipated when finished.

look at the depth and uniformity of the beni on the Kohaku. Compare it's
tailtube diameter to that of the showa. The kohaku has a wider mouth then the showa and i believe as a sign that it will be the bigger grower of the two.

Hirogoi
08-21-2008, 10:57 PM
I don't see the kohaku's pattern disconecting. That beni is thick and looks strong.

premster
08-21-2008, 11:08 PM
I think the kohaku will be the bigger and the fish with better conformation , but I like the patten on the showa more.

koiman1950
08-22-2008, 04:01 AM
I'm enjoying the comments made so far. Jonathan, you have to get off the fence buddy. First you say you wouldn't buy the showa, but in the very next sentence you say "if the black fills in" you'd buy it. Well, good buddy, that's the fun and interesting part of growing out tosai, especially showa. It's like Forest Gump said about the box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get!

Mike

Carl
08-22-2008, 08:05 AM
I like the kohaku and think it is a relatively safe bet in terms of quality, conformation and pattern, which is pretty much the whole ball of wax, other than size. The shiro is nice and the hi gives me confidence in that it will remain and continue to improve.

Shiro in the face, shiro in the tail tube, shoulder break . . . when can you send it to me? :d: I can't tell the sex, but I like that koi.

The showa is a gamble, but that's what showa are. It looks thin and long, which might be a good start for a showa. I can't tell the quality of the beni but the shiro looks good. Shiro in the tail, face and shoulder and the distribution of the beni bode well for the possibility of a good pattern. Looks like a good start to motoguro. If the fish is thought to be of good quality, I think it has great potential, but I am still having difficulty judging the quality of beni on showa.

Ethan25
08-22-2008, 09:09 AM
I'm enjoying the comments made so far. Jonathan, you have to get off the fence buddy. First you say you wouldn't buy the showa, but in the very next sentence you say "if the black fills in" you'd buy it. Well, good buddy, that's the fun and interesting part of growing out tosai, especially showa. It's like Forest Gump said about the box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get!

Mike

I think a kohaku pattern on a sanke is much more important than a kohaku pattern on a showa. On a showa, you don't necessarily want a huge kohaku pattern if you are going to fit in the shiro and sumi.

rainblood
08-22-2008, 09:28 AM
Mike - I think you know more about koi than about 80% of the people on this board :confused: :bow: :bow:
Not crazy about either fish :shrug: But I would take the Kohaku over the Showa for reasons stated above

koiman1950
08-22-2008, 03:35 PM
Mike - I think you know more about koi than about 80% of the people on this board :confused: :bow: :bow:
Not crazy about either fish :shrug: But I would take the Kohaku over the Showa for reasons stated above

Thanks for the compliments Rain. In this particular case, I'm still learning about Sakai's new Atarashi Sumi along with everyone else. I do have a couple other samples of his Showas and Sankes here at home to study including a 29" Yonsai. She is still a "project" fish and I'm immensely enjoying watching her progression. Maybe I can get some more photos of her in the Fall, IF my measuring tank is big enough at that time:eek1: :D:

Okay, so here's what I based my decisions on about these two:

Kohaku - I think most of you hit this one right - depth/evenness of the beni and softness of the shiroji. The other factors where that the last hi plate at the odome actually "wraps" rather than being to one side or another giving the shoulder plate a better balance overall. The smaller hi plate on the ozutsu is really not a concern of mine, as Russ has pointed out, as the sashi WILL pull into the color plate as it thickens and the shiroji/skin get thicker later on. I figure this will take probably two years.

Showa - This fish caught my eye right away for some reason, and usually when that happens, the fish tend to turn out well, rather than me standing there staring and breaking down all the components with technical merit. Now that I have done that (at least in the photo), I actually like it even more. As has been previously said, you don't have to have a really good Kohaku pattern on a showa. It's nice, but not a requirement as long as the sumi is well placed to artistically balance what the eye sees within the "whole package". We'll all see together when I post the comparison pics on October.

Dick, I was a bit confused with your remark about the sumi - did you mean that it will have too much sumi later on or the quality will be better than most imagine but display nicely?

Also, when looking at these two, keep in mind, the Kohaku is 12" and the Showa is only 9" so head shape/size and body conformation/tail tube,etc will have a different look. Also, the photos are at slightly different angles. None the less, it will be fun to watch as these are harvested from the mud. It'll give me something to do this year as I won't be able to make the trip across the pond to Mecca.

Mike

Steve Nguyen
08-25-2008, 12:00 PM
I like the kohaku but I have a major concern on the circled area. see picture. I used to have a sakai kohaku with a concern spot just like that. Mr. Sakai commented on it during the last seminar.

I think the showa will turn out fine in a couple of years.

Steve

Ethan25
08-25-2008, 12:02 PM
I like the kohaku but I have a major concern on the circled area. see picture. I used to have a sakai kohaku with a concern spot just like that. Mr. Sakai commented on it during the last seminar.

I think the showa will turn out fine in a couple of years.

Steve

I'd agree with what was said on another thread, that as the skin thickens, the white will overshadow any hi that is there and it will go away. I think this is a result of HI quality HI, and young shiro.

Steve Nguyen
08-25-2008, 02:44 PM
time will tell then. for learning purpose, keep us posted on this kohaku, Mike.

Steve


I'd agree with what was said on another thread, that as the skin thickens, the white will overshadow any hi that is there and it will go away. I think this is a result of HI quality HI, and young shiro.

dick benbow
08-25-2008, 03:37 PM
Mike.
If we took a shot of the underside of the showa I would bet there is black at the base of the pelvic and anal fins. Black is heavy in the tail, and more is coming as indicated by the black line along the base of the dorsal on the beni.
My comment was made to say that there is more black coming than would tend to meet the eye. Too much black? No, not really but more black than red or white.
Counting on pattern in a tosai is quite the reach. It does teach us how much the process of keeping Koi is about optimism when it comes to pattern development.

koiman1950
08-25-2008, 03:44 PM
Mike.
If we took a shot of the underside of the showa I would bet there is black at the base of the pelvic and anal fins. Black is heavy in the tail, and more is coming as indicated by the black line along the base of the dorsal on the beni.
My comment was made to say that there is more black coming than would tend to meet the eye. Too much black? No, not really but more black than red or white.
Counting on pattern in a tosai is quite the reach. It does teach us how much the process of keeping Koi is about optimism when it comes to pattern development.

Thanks for the clarification Dick. This was very close to what my thoughts were. Of course, as you well know, Showa tosai are a crap shoot at best. If, as the sumi rises, it tightens as well, then I think it may stay complimentary yet have a very powerful look several years from now.

lilhelper
09-24-2008, 03:24 AM
I'm betting a lot on that kohaku!

Ethan25
09-24-2008, 08:37 AM
I'm betting a lot on that kohaku!

same here. I still think that as the skin and shiroji thickens, it will hide that secondary hi.

I think that secondary hi shows strength in the hi, not weakness.

raganwald
09-24-2008, 11:03 AM
I'm betting a lot on that kohaku!

Not as much as Mike ;-)

koiman1950
09-24-2008, 02:44 PM
Not as much as Mike ;-)

Reg

That's somewhat true. I bought these two more for fun than anything else really. As I can't make the trek to Japan this year, I figured this would kinda satisfy me. Yeah, right! I'm really gonna miss not being at Sakai's Harvest and Auction this year.

lilhelper
09-24-2008, 02:48 PM
Reg
Yeah, right! I'm really gonna miss not being at Sakai's Harvest and Auction this year.
Don't take it too hard!

farne230
09-27-2008, 07:03 PM
You have done well Mike, just wait and see what a full season will do. Can not wait to see what develops.
Bob

koiman1950
09-27-2008, 09:02 PM
Thanks Bob. Yeah, I'll post pics of the Ikeage event, people and fish, especially these two, Ethans Showa and others too good to pass up posting. I know Russ has a few secret weapons up his sleeve. Will be interesting to see how they've developed!:rolleyes: ;)

lilhelper
09-30-2008, 11:52 AM
The showa is just one I wouldn't buy. I really don't like the kohaku pattern but is the black filled in right id buy this koi. I think that if the black does fill in just right youll have your self a really nice koi. But I be live it would make a nice koi to watch and see the progress of the koi over the next couple years. I do see a Decent koi but nothing show quality but that's just me and I'm no expert.

The kohaku is OK i really don't like how its smaller pattern is in the back. I think I do see the marten spot disconnecting from the pattern thought. Which in my eyes would add interest to the koi so that's a plus. But over all I like the kohaku a lot just due to me seeing more potential then the showa. I don't know why but to me I see a good kohaku in the making once again I'm no expert I'm just a ponder

Over all I think you got two really good '' Project'' koi. Id like to see these koi after they come out of the mud.

The kohaku pattern on a showa is important, but not as important as it would be on kohaku or a sanke.
If the showa develops a lot of sumi, the kohaku pattern will be balanced by the sumi.
Some grand champion showa never had a traditional kohaku pattern. but they still looked stunning.

Ethan25
09-30-2008, 11:57 AM
Thanks Bob. Yeah, I'll post pics of the Ikeage event, people and fish, especially these two, Ethans Showa and others too good to pass up posting. I know Russ has a few secret weapons up his sleeve. Will be interesting to see how they've developed!:rolleyes: ;)

man, I cannot wait. I think the anticipation and experience will be worth it all, even if the fish has fallen apart.

which, by the way, should not happen under any circumstance!

Ethan

Ethan25
09-30-2008, 11:58 AM
The kohaku pattern on a showa is important, but not as important as it would be on kohaku or a sanke.
If the showa develops a lot of sumi, the kohaku pattern will be balanced by the sumi.
Some grand champion showa never had a traditional kohaku pattern. but they still looked stunning.

Good thoughts Lilhelper.

Ethan

Steve Nguyen
10-16-2008, 11:54 PM
Mike must be very pleased with this fish so far. you be the judge

hope Mike doesn't mind that I'm posting the updated pictures just in case readers wondering how the fish turned out.

Steve

premster
10-17-2008, 12:22 AM
What happened to the showa ?

koiman1950
10-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Thanks for posting those pics Steve. I was so busy with the harvest, I never was able to get my camera out of the bag.:eek1:

At this point, my showa was a "no-show" as were a few others. But I made up for it by picking up a very nice 19-20" Sanke that Russ can't even remember putting in the mud. He thinks it was one that was at the store before and thought it deserved to be grown a bit. He was right! She was supposedly 12-14" when she went in. Russ has yet to take a picture of her. Typical, long, thin Matsunosuke Sanke body but the bone structure is already very evident. She WILL be joining my Kohaku for another spa treatment next season. I'm hoping for 24"+ for both fish by then as it should be a longer time in the mud by almost double if they go in in May. Time will tell!!

Mike