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Hirogoi
08-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Type: Sanke
Breeder: Sakai
Age: Tosai
Size: Roughly 9 Inches
Gender: Unknown (Praying for a girl)

This is my fish I bought from Russ Peters. Now in the mud pond for the Ikeage. It only took me eight hours to decide on buying it. Let the criticisms fly.



http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Sanke.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Sanke5.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Sanke2.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Sanke3.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Sanke4.jpg

Hirogoi
08-17-2008, 07:47 PM
Oh, and the white mark on the nose is just from bowling. It should fill back in.

Rudy
08-17-2008, 08:03 PM
First you bought it from a nut job that just happens to be lucky enough to have a good old lady to watch him.
Second you need to get better at bowling a koi because if that one keeps going you may mess up one h*ll of a nice sanke. ;)

:thumb::cool3:

Rudy
08-17-2008, 08:23 PM
I didn't think they let you out this early on a Sunday. Figured 6 pm at the earliest :confused:

Next time leave the spaghetti strainer in the house and use one of those big blue things :D:

Dude :cool3:

lukef
08-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Ok now that you have the crowd laughing.....
I really hope that this fish has a great potential..but I don't see it...
i see a too black Sanke, especially on the back 2/3rds.
and that two scales worth of sashi on the right side of the koi has got improve!!
body shape is fine
lets just hope there is some magic mud up your way

Hirogoi
08-18-2008, 04:53 AM
It's Magoi bloodline, so I'm hoping for lots of growth laterally before it starts getting some nice girth to it. I don't want no skinny fish. I'd be happy with two inches when it comes home from the mud.

Carl
08-18-2008, 07:21 AM
I think the color is pretty well balanced. the sumi may be slightly heavy on the one side, but that may balance out. If this is Atarashi, the sumi should be pretty stable so we can predict that as tosai, it will gain more suimi, but perhaps not too much. The beni on these marusome kiwa koi just confuses me. They frequently have the stray hi scales which is generally problematic, but since the beni recedes a little to create the marusome kiwa, they tend to lose some of the hi at the edges of the pattern, anyway.

The head pattern is nice, stopping where it should, though the one red eye is distracting. Nice shiro in the nose and the tail. Nice shoulder break which is a nice characteristic. A little bit of black streaking in the pecs, which is appropriate.

Body conformation for this size looks good, but I am not great at discerning that. Sumi is excellent, though it might be too finished for its age if it were not atarashi. I think it has potential.

(But, I've only been in the hobby two years)

Toragoi
08-18-2008, 07:52 AM
Tons of sumi still gonna come up on the body in the beni plates and on the forehead centered just behind the eyes. That wide, messy sashi (if that's what those pink discolorations are in the shiroji in front of parts of the beni plate that resemble bruises on it's sides) concerns me. It just doesn't look good right now and with this being a new outcross to magoi, hard to predict how it'll turn out. The nick in the nose is probably already gone, very minor.

If you take all the sumi out of consideration and just look at the beni, it's not a very good Kohaku pattern at all--and a Kohaku pattern is what I want to see on a Sanke, accented by sumi, and all on a snow white ground. Sumi is going to dominate and there won't be a whole lot of shiroji for a better ground.

I would like to see more lustre to the skin; it looks more like cotton than silk--no apparent brilliance that I'd expect from a Sakai fish and the shiroji looks dirty in some places, the nose yellowed, though this may clear up in time (don't expect that in the mud, though).

And all I've talked about here is pattern and color, not the conformation yet.

It seems to be a well-proportioned fish with nice size to it's head and pecs, balanced physically all the way around and what I'd expect from Sakai. It should grow well in the mud and hopefully put on a few inches for you. The rest is gonna have to be a surprise....

Hirogoi
08-18-2008, 06:44 PM
I picked it one cause no matter what I love it. Two, because it looks like Matt's sanke who took GC at the Roseburg show, and three because Tracey was there pushing me to buy it. I can't wait to watch this little one grow.

Midorigoi
08-19-2008, 01:38 AM
I like it, has nice reds and sumi. Be sure to post updates, I want to see what it turns out to look like :yes:

Russell Peters
08-19-2008, 10:58 PM
I picked it one cause no matter what I love it. Two, because it looks like Matt's sanke who took GC at the Roseburg show, and three because Tracey was there pushing me to buy it. I can't wait to watch this little one grow.

You made a good choice and time will tell all.;) Patience and understanding the bloodline will take you farther than you will know.:cool3:

BTW, there is NO sumi on the head.:no: The dark area is what you see under the skin AND Mr. Sakai says that NO Sumi stays on the head of his Sanke. I believe him.:yes:

dick benbow
08-19-2008, 11:45 PM
this is one of Toshio's that came thru Russ. It has nice skin and good even
beni. How do you like the quality and placement of the sumi?

I hesitate to criticise your sanke because it's just beginning it's transistion
to a beautiful koi. Looks like enough white at the tail odome that it may pull forward enough to make a nice break. The extend sashi on the beni can sometimes pull back quite a distance with Toshio's elastic beni, so only time will tell. The ding in the beni will be gone by next spring. The beni density on the head and that on the shoulder are pretty close. My take on the koi is that some stronger sumi is in it's destiny. Nice long head, should reach good size. (bout time you got a sanke! )

BTW, the sanke I have in the mud with yours, will end up with an incredible
amount of sumi and you will not believe it's the same fish pictured. It'll be two more growing seasons before I can prove my prediction. The pecs and tail now pure white will have black lines in them and be quite pronounced.
How do I know this stuff? from tosai I had access to from Toshio in our three year study of his showa and sanke. I saw my 3 yr old showa last weekend in Spokane and the sumi is incredible. Amazing what you can learn about a bloodline when you keep it year after year :)

DebbieKSW
08-20-2008, 03:54 AM
Dick,
I am looking forward to seeing it in 3 years time.
I like it as it is now so the future will be even more exciting.

dick benbow
08-20-2008, 07:46 PM
It's a good example of the importance of starting with kohaku as a pattern.
What most will be surprised at is the rush of sumi appearing from seemingly
no where. Most folks when picking Sanke look for sumi up and if under the skin heavily shaded so you can " tell" where it'll come up. Except it doesn't always. But there are ways to decide what your chances are. For example heavy sumi in the dorsal area that is up with none up in the tail region or shoulder is a 50/50 chance of NOT filling in. Better actually to have sumi at the shoulder and tail areas as dorsal area has better chance to fill in......I anticipate this koi to be something to enjoy as it rushes to finish. I think it will match and compliment my six step kohaku (avatar)

PapaBear
08-21-2008, 09:25 AM
Young fish like this are always tough, but Dick has us at a disadvantage since he's had "early access" to the bloodlines we're looking at.

Normally I'd be a bit concerned about the amount of Sumi on such a young fish, but with this being one of his newer magoi lines and marusome kiwa type some of the "rules" may not apply in the way we are accustomed to seeing play out on more traditional lines.

A few months in the mud will likely yield you more than an inch or two of growth and it will give you a good read on the elasticity of the beni. I would expect some of those stray beni scales along the lateral line to go away, some of today's baby sumi may go away while the submerged sumi may begin to rise a bit. You should also see the Kohaku pattern open up a bit and get a much better look at what the smudgy sashi REALLY looks like.
Much to learn from this one.

Russell Peters
08-21-2008, 03:52 PM
Young fish like this are always tough, but Dick has us at a disadvantage since he's had "early access" to the bloodlines we're looking at.

Normally I'd be a bit concerned about the amount of Sumi on such a young fish, but with this being one of his newer magoi lines and marusome kiwa type some of the "rules" may not apply in the way we are accustomed to seeing play out on more traditional lines.

A few months in the mud will likely yield you more than an inch or two of growth and it will give you a good read on the elasticity of the beni. I would expect some of those stray beni scales along the lateral line to go away, some of today's baby sumi may go away while the submerged sumi may begin to rise a bit. You should also see the Kohaku pattern open up a bit and get a much better look at what the smudgy sashi REALLY looks like.
Much to learn from this one.

So, you are the third person to talk about "smudgy sashi" so I guess I should clear something up about Mr. Sakai's Koi. I have asked him about his concern if there are areas where the sashi is two to three scales deep. He asked me why I was asking so I told him that alot of people in the US are taught that sashi should be clean and only one to two scales deep, otherwise it is a sign of weekness. He smiled and said that with his Koi it is not a concern. When the Koi are very young you can see through the skin to the beni, or sumi, below. He says you are seeing the depth of color underneath because the skin is thin and as the Koi gets older the skin will thicken and the sashi will "clean up". You will no longer see the beni underneath.

This also applies to stray or random Beni that you might see underneath that is not part of a pattern. If it is not on the surface it will not surface and it will disappear when the skin thickens, the Shiroji will cover it.

This is why I have said before that it is really important to understand the tendancies of a breeders Koi when you are judging them.

koiman1950
08-21-2008, 08:43 PM
I happen to like this fish. I also think it is hard for some people to see "into the future" of tosai and understand how the pattern will look when the fish is over 24" versus now. There is plenty of shiroji on the gill plates and sides of the body. On this fish, as it grows in girth, not length, you will begin to see the transformation of what is being talked about now.

I have no problem with the sashi on this fish. As Russ has pointed out, you have to understand the breeder and his keito to properly "judge" the fish. I think we Americans read too much into what is written concerning quality attributes and lose sight of the fact that your dealing with a living entity and work of art Try to keep in mind, written information should really be taken as a "reference" and not the holy grail or Ten Commandments of koi.

Like Dick, I too have a few Sakai fish and have had the pleasure of watching the developmental process. I have a Sanke that is now Sansai, but wasn't meeting normal "growth" at Nisai. It has now put on a good 4" this year and is looking absolutely amazing. Sorry, I won't disturb it at this time of year to get a photo, but I will certainly try to get a good shot of it this fall. The skin on this fish is the best I've seen in a long time. It's so obvious when compared to other fish, it really allows you to understand the difference of what is talked about in reference to sheen, lustre and shine!

Mike

PapaBear
08-21-2008, 09:07 PM
So, you are the third person to talk about "smudgy sashi" so I guess I should clear something up about Mr. Sakai's Koi. I have asked him about his concern if there are areas where the sashi is two to three scales deep. He asked me why I was asking so I told him that alot of people in the US are taught that sashi should be clean and only one to two scales deep, otherwise it is a sign of weekness. He smiled and said that with his Koi it is not a concern. When the Koi are very young you can see through the skin to the beni, or sumi, below. He says you are seeing the depth of color underneath because the skin is thin and as the Koi gets older the skin will thicken and the sashi will "clean up". You will no longer see the beni underneath.

This also applies to stray or random Beni that you might see underneath that is not part of a pattern. If it is not on the surface it will not surface and it will disappear when the skin thickens, the Shiroji will cover it.

This is why I have said before that it is really important to understand the tendancies of a breeders Koi when you are judging them.

Thanks Russ.
That is pretty much what I was driving at when I said the particulars of this bloodline are not well known by most of us so "the "rules" may not apply in the way we are accustomed to seeing play out on more traditional lines". His newer fish are even breaking some of the rules of his older more familiar lines... and that is looking like a very good thing:D:

Matt
08-22-2008, 01:01 AM
You did tell him that I put bass in that mud pond! Big Ones:croc:

Hirogoi
01-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Here's an update. Foxy Lady is now about 15" maybe 16? Her beni stretched with growth, but you can tell it's filling in again so it's all good. I was really impressed with the growth. Awesome fish. My camera always bleaches the color red so she's more red-orange than orange, but other than the fact she'll never be able to show I love this fish. Will definitely be buying from Russ again. Thoughts?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Koi021.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Koi023.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/Koi022.jpg

Ethan25
01-30-2009, 05:46 PM
conformation looks excellent. Nice work.

Hirogoi
01-30-2009, 08:17 PM
Thanks Russ. Next time I'll even paint em before I take pics.

Hirogoi
01-30-2009, 08:18 PM
That little knick didn't fill in though. Oh well, I actually think the patch of white near the nose is cool.

Sumthinfishys
01-31-2009, 05:04 PM
Nice Sanke, I like it. But it does look like it is a male. But a nice looking Koi for sure.

Mike C

Hirogoi
02-02-2009, 09:11 PM
I think it may be egging up now actually? That or putting on some serious weight. All my fish seem to be girls.

Hirogoi
07-29-2009, 01:52 PM
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/RoseburgKoiShow085-1.jpg


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/RoseburgKoiShow090-1.jpg


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/RoseburgKoiShow087-1.jpg\


Updated development.

jonathan
07-29-2009, 02:34 PM
what happned near the tail area ?

Hirogoi
07-29-2009, 03:26 PM
Bird got her while she was in the mud. It looks A LOT better than it used to.

MikeS
07-29-2009, 04:04 PM
Bird got her while she was in the mud. It looks A LOT better than it used to.

Ouch, looks like it was a big wound, glad she is healing well:clap:

Hirogoi
08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
Updated pics.


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/KoiandGoldfish023.jpg


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii169/Hirogoi/KoiandGoldfish006.jpg

Hirogoi
08-26-2009, 03:38 PM
I think her pattern is going sandan on me. I'm a little concerned about the white spot in the middle of her first beni plate. Hopefully that will fill back in just like the beni on her head is doing, that's almost completely filled in again.

Billy
10-23-2009, 02:48 PM
Do you want to sell it?:yes:

Steve Nguyen
10-23-2009, 03:58 PM
sex it yet?

looks like a male

is that a small window on the shoulder? what happened? did it bump into something? mostly like it won't fill back again.

I don't like the beni development. may it will improve later but doesn't look good at the moment.

Steve

Hirogoi
10-23-2009, 09:14 PM
The window was a bump. I didn't think the beni on the head would fill in either, but it did.

Hirogoi
10-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Do you want to sell it?:yes:


Not yet, one of my only surviving fish, plus I never found out what exactly it was that happened to them and I don't want to pass on something that might have a bug.

Plus I really want to see this fish big. I love watching the sumi on it. Maybe in a year or two?

FLABOY08
10-27-2009, 03:43 PM
Is that a window of shiro that I see on the shoulder area?

RickP
10-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Is that a window of shiro that I see on the shoulder area?

:yes:

koiman1950
10-27-2009, 06:24 PM
Is that a window of shiro that I see on the shoulder area?

Contrary to popular belief, that is NOT a window on the shoulder. If you look closely you can see that the skin was scraped in that location and the underlying skin is still yellowish in color. That will fill back in over time.

The beni development shows that the beni can "stretch" with fast growth and the hoshi (dark centers on scales) shows it's potential to continue improving. I don't see what all the fuss is. This fish will be fine in a year or two.

Mike

FLABOY08
10-27-2009, 07:36 PM
:no: hmm, with the window and the scar, i don't know...

Hirogoi
10-27-2009, 09:19 PM
:no: hmm, with the window and the scar, i don't know...


It's okay, you finally admit you don't know much.

Shawn, if you read the above posts you might have read what Mike had to say. Also if you'd read this entire thread you would know that this Sanke already had a scrape on her head. That scrape which went all the way to the white is filling in quite nicely a tribute to the strong beni in the fish. :D:

The scar becomes less and less apparent as the fish grows.

According to Sharon Olson one of her Sakai Showa also had a scar. I couldn't see it. She said one of the great things about Sakai fish is that if an injury happens early enough their growth will compensate for it, and if all goes well it will be barely noticable if not non-existent as an adult.

All it means for this one, is that it's removed from show for a few years until it has more time to grow and fill out. Which is kind of good anyways because it means I have to be patient and wait for her to develop all the way before showing her.

Hirogoi
10-27-2009, 09:21 PM
Shawn, please read the whole thread before responding. If you do you'll notice Steve has already pointed out the mark on the fish.

FLABOY08
10-27-2009, 11:39 PM
Hmm, I thought I was giving you the same courtesy that you gave me? And the head looks crooked too... Oh well, I guess you can't always get a perfect koi...

And I might not know it all yet, but I am a quick study... And as you have stated many times before, you don't know it all either...

Hirogoi
10-27-2009, 11:57 PM
And the head looks crooked too...

Nope head is straight. Beni on the eye and the direction the fish is looking make it look off.



Oh well, I guess you can't always get a perfect koi...

Yep, you've proved this with your fish many times.:rolleyes:



And I might not know it all yet, but I am a quick study... And as you have stated many times before, you don't know it all either...

Well study up, and read this whole thread. If you learn it fast enough i.e. (in less than the eight months or so that this thread has been going) you might actually learn something about the beni of Sakai's fish before you make the same critique others have already made. That way you can also teach others about your product. You might also see that while people already said that they didn't think the beni would fill in, but it did.



Hmm, I thought I was giving you the same courtesy that you gave me?

And what would that be?

FLABOY08
10-28-2009, 12:51 AM
I am giving you the coutesy that you have given me in so many of my threads...

As for my herd, I am happy with them. There are some that I will eventually sell as they didn't turn out the way that I wanted, but that's not a big deal. Someone will want them to keep in their pond. I have picked out my herd based on some show rules and some basic rules of what I like. When you purchase koi, it doesn't mean your going to show them. I am not like some dealers that don't own personal koi... I enjoy owning koi of my own. At the end of the day, the koi you pick are your koi and should meet your criteria of what you like... And I have received plenty of compliments on my herd and hopefully will continue to receive those compliments as time goes by.

What you haven't seen me do, is search for folks threads and poon them just because I don't particularly like that individual. However, I am not going to turn the other cheek when someone constantly trashes my threads... You made it clear several posts back that you didn't want me privating you or sending you personal messages, but you continue to contact me through my threads and usually with negative comments which sounds like a hidden agenda on your part. When is the last time you posted something positive in one of my threads? Am I missing something?

Hirogoi
10-28-2009, 10:18 AM
This is a beneficial thread I have actually learned a lot from it.

I have learned a lot with this thread about the development of Sakai's fish and their beni strength. It's been going on for a while. One of those things where you can really see what you learn about a breeder's fish by owning them.

I would very much like to see this thread continue especially when I get back home after a year and get to take new pictures.

Hirogoi
10-28-2009, 10:19 AM
And yes, Shawn. You are missing something.