PDA

View Full Version : Shiro utsuri x ???



bonsainut
05-13-2008, 01:30 PM
I've got a big female shiro utsuri ready to pop. However my two best males are taisho sankes. Do I pair her up with a couple of moderate quality kohakus or go with the sankes?

(These are all decent japanese fish from kodama that have been in my pond for 6 months or more - in the $300 - $1000 range originally)

rainblood
05-13-2008, 03:23 PM
Is a group spawn out of the question?

bonsainut
05-13-2008, 07:21 PM
No, I don't want a free-for-all. Some of my fish are old pond-quality fish that have sentimental value, but are nowhere near show-quality. They be spawning for the culling pot from the very beginning.

bonsainut
05-16-2008, 12:54 AM
Wow not a lot of action on this forum...

DebbieKSW
05-16-2008, 02:08 AM
It all depends on what you aim is for.
What you will cull for....what the koi look like..the parents.
Not just colour but body,pattern etc.

bonsainut
05-21-2008, 05:25 PM
Well I'll give it a shot with a couple threesomes...

1st set - female Shiro Utsuri + male Taisho Sanke + male Gin Rin Sanke

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koi1.jpg

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koi2.jpg

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koi3.jpg

2nd set - female Gin Rin Utsuri + male Showa + male Showa (photos to come after first group is out of my spawning pond)

koicarer
05-21-2008, 06:08 PM
Can I have few baby Koi when everything goes fine?

Cheers,

Chris

koicarer
05-21-2008, 06:12 PM
Koi look great. Can I have few baby Koi fish when everything goes fine? Good luck!

Chris

bonsainut
05-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Ok first spawn went off last night as expected - though a lot messier than I had planned. Eggs everywhere - on plants, on walls, even outside the pool! (Don't come a-knockin' if the pond is a-rockin'). I will let this first set hatch out and mature to the free-swimming stage, and then move them into the fry grow-out tank before I try the next threesome.

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koi_eggs.jpg

bonsainut
05-22-2008, 11:56 AM
Can I have few baby Koi when everything goes fine?

Cheers,

Chris

I don't want to jinx my luck by assuming ANY will make it to adulthood. However I have my fingers crossed. They seem to be much easier to raise than marine fish (with which I have had a fair amount of experience).

ed adams
05-26-2008, 06:07 PM
Progress report?

bonsainut
05-30-2008, 11:51 AM
Progress report?

I was getting concerned because immediately after spawning the weather here turned cold and cloudy. The eggs did not start to hatch for 6 days. Additionally, the water quality was not what I would have wished - the pool had really not been set up that long and even though I was using aged pond water the sponge filters had not matured and I was having a few troubles getting everything in the pool dialed in. Additionally, I did not use an anti-fungal agent in the water and I am sure I lost good eggs to cross contamination. The first fry I observed were on Wednesday (day 6) and I only saw a handful. As of yesterday (day 7) there are hundreds. None are at the free-swimming stage yet, so I have a few more days for the pool to continue to develop zooplankton, and I have a full pound of brine shrimp napuli to start hatching out in the next few days (getting hatchery set up today).

I have another threesome that I will try in a week or two so I need to move the fry into a grow-out location - that is my next big challenge. I am hoping once they are free-swimming they will be photopositive and I can get them to gather at night.

bonsainut
06-01-2008, 11:26 AM
I don't know where they all came from, but as of yesterday the numbers of visible koi increased at least 10x. There are easily thousands of them. They are almost all free-swimming now, so they probably had been hiding out in the water hyacinth. I am going to start with newly hatched brine shrimp (artemia napulii) today, supplemented with a little hard-boiled egg yolk in suspension. I expect that at this point I have about a week to get them to eat something before they start to die en mass.

About 48 hours ago I disconnected my sponge filters and went with 100% airstones because I was concerned that the water flow through the sponge filters was too strong for the tiny fry. I cannot prove that any fry actually got hurt, nor can I tell if changing to the air stones had any impact, but I wanted to mention it.

bonsainut
06-01-2008, 11:47 PM
Fry are clearly feeding on both the artemia and egg yolk. I feed the yolk first, and the greedy eaters fill up on it, and then I feed the artemia, and the smaller and more finicky fry get a chance to eat. It is easy to see who is eating what - the egg yolk shows up very clearly in their guts (yellow), as does the artemia (orange). I would say 50% or so of the fry are taking the egg yolk - perhaps more. This surprised me because I assumed that I would get a much higher death rate without live foods. Regardless, everything seems to be going ok so far, with the exception that the water temp got a little high today from direct sunlight.

bonsainut
06-02-2008, 01:02 PM
Here are some photos. Fry are approx. 4-5 days old. If you look carefully you can see a slight orange color in their midsection - this is from artemia that they are eating. These shots are representative of the population density across an entire 10' pool, and the only fry i could get in focus were the ones at the surface. There are many more cruising the bottom. There are thousands of them at this point. If you compare these photos to the photo of 10 days ago showing the eggs in the hyacinth, you can see how much the pool has greened up in 10 days. It is in full sunlight. I will have to shade it if the temp increases - so far it has been in the mid 70's each day. I am keeping it particularly funky at this point so that it generates a lot of micro flora and fauna for the fry to eat.

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koifry1.jpg

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koifry2.jpg

Hirogoi
06-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Good luck with the babies. Who's the next spawn?

bonsainut
06-02-2008, 03:07 PM
Good luck with the babies. Who's the next spawn?

Next spawn will be a gin rin utsuri (F) with a showa (M) and either a kohaku (M) or a gin rin showa (M). Right now I am having trouble because I have many more fry than I expected. I almost need a second 10' pool for the 2nd spawn because I will have an extremely difficult time moving the 1st spawn anywhere until they have matured to about 1". I am going to see how they look in about two weeks. Worst case - I may set up a 2nd pool for a couple of months.

rainblood
06-02-2008, 03:52 PM
Sounds like youre setting yourself up for disaster :harhar:
Do you have the heart to intensively cull these guys or are you gonna do something else once you have 10,000 3in koi?

bonsainut
06-02-2008, 04:44 PM
Sounds like youre setting yourself up for disaster :harhar:
Do you have the heart to intensively cull these guys or are you gonna do something else once you have 10,000 3in koi?

Naw, I can cull with the best of them. I understand that the "art" of koi is all about improving the breed and looking for that 1 in 100,000 fish and passing on the traits. The strict adherence to standards is what I like about this hobby. In that I am a purist I guess. When I cull I am going to use clove oil and vodka so I like to think the little guys won't know what hit them.

bonsainut
06-02-2008, 04:53 PM
One other comment - I am rethinking some ideas I had about moving these guys to a smaller tank within the pool so that I could maintain high density of live foods. After observing their behavior in the "green" pool, I am confident that they are eating something on the sides and bottom. These areas are covered with fine carpet algae and the fry are spending most of time with their heads burrowed into the algae and then jerking out as if they are tearing loose a piece of algae or are eating some other non-visible critter. This behavior seems to intensify when the algae covered area is in full sunlight. Don't know what is going on, exactly, but their little bodies are plump and they are NOT full of artemia or egg (which is visible immediately after I feed them). I have to assume they are eating something I can't see, and that if I moved them into a smaller container they would be denied this food source. At any rate, so far so good, so I am not going to mess with success at this point. If I start seeing a high level of die-off in the next week - 10 days I will rethink my strategy. The little dead bodies are really easy to see; they are a bright white color that looks very different from the live fry. So far I have seen one dead fry though I assume I will start seeing more at some point.

kgt1223
06-02-2008, 06:28 PM
U got it man! Fry for me always do better in a well seasoned grassy environment. Youll have a lot of sinkers in the third week but thats normal. Whats left should be plenty healthy! Probably not telling u anything u dont already know.:D:

Donaldbyrd
06-02-2008, 08:09 PM
Keep us updated including pics:yes:

Hirogoi
06-03-2008, 12:04 AM
*sigh* why is it that my fish just won't do the deed? Everyone else is getting babies and now I have three super pregnant females and no babies.

Hirogoi
06-03-2008, 12:05 AM
Can you take some pics of culls too? I'd like to see why you didn't keep some.

ed adams
06-03-2008, 12:44 AM
Great pictures. Very inspirational!


Here are some photos. Fry are approx. 4-5 days old. If you look carefully you can see a slight orange color in their midsection - this is from artemia that they are eating. These shots are representative of the population density across an entire 10' pool, and the only fry i could get in focus were the ones at the surface. There are many more cruising the bottom. There are thousands of them at this point. If you compare these photos to the photo of 10 days ago showing the eggs in the hyacinth, you can see how much the pool has greened up in 10 days. It is in full sunlight. I will have to shade it if the temp increases - so far it has been in the mid 70's each day. I am keeping it particularly funky at this point so that it generates a lot of micro flora and fauna for the fry to eat.

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koifry1.jpg

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koifry2.jpg

bonsainut
06-03-2008, 12:07 PM
*sigh* why is it that my fish just won't do the deed? Everyone else is getting babies and now I have three super pregnant females and no babies.

How are you coaxing them to breed? If you have a mature gravid female and two mature males, I can probably get them to spawn within 24 hours.

bonsainut
06-03-2008, 01:55 PM
Quick update for the day...

Fish are growing quickly. Noticeable growth in 24 hours. At the same time, it is also apparent that a few of the fish (perhaps 1 or 2%) are several days behind the others in hatch-out; they are just starting to freely swim which the majority were starting to do last Thursday. I don't know if these fry are naturally weaker than the others, or just hatched later for some reason (access to oxygen within a hyacinth root bundle, etc). For the majority, swimming is becoming much more controlled and purposeful. Some are schooling, while others are actively hunting in and among the weeds. They definitely prefer the artemia to the egg yolk - if I feed artemia first, they will fill up and ignore the egg yolk that comes later. Given that the artemia is more nutritious, I will continue to feed the yolk first (for the larger, more aggressive feeders) followed by the artemia, as a hopeful way to balance growth between strong and weak fry.

Hirogoi
06-04-2008, 12:20 AM
Maybe my boys are girld? I dunno. Cool babies, where do you get artemia?

bonsainut
06-04-2008, 01:37 AM
Maybe my boys are girld? I dunno. Cool babies, where do you get artemia?

I get my brine shrimp direct from, of all places,

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/

As far as your boys and girls go, koi will not spawn if they are not "triggered". You can have a pond full of gravid females and mature males and they will not spawn unless conditions "trigger" the behavior. These conditions include shallow water (shallower than the length of the female koi), warmer water, horny males, and suitable substrate (water plants or spawning rope). For some reason a threesome seems to work best - I don't know why, but a solo female tends to get two males frisky and they compete for her attention which in turn tends to trigger her spawning cycle. If you can offer a suitable spawning locale (shallow pool with water hyacinth or other suitable substrate), and pull your threesome from their pond and give them a little private time in the spawning location, they will probably spawn the first night.

Hirogoi
06-04-2008, 11:38 PM
About how big do your yearlings get?

bonsainut
06-06-2008, 12:02 PM
This is my first year trying to grow them out so we'll see. Right now everything looks good. I would say 80% or more of the hatch are all growing at the same rate so I don't yet see any of the size disparity that would lead to cannibalism. Very low deaths so far, and only a few obvious malformations that will be the first culls (bent spine is the most frequent). I will take more photos in a few days so people will see the dramatic size change that occurs in the first week. I am burning through a liter of artemia per day (2 TB of eggs) and approx. one full egg yolk in a 10' pool at approx. 18" depth if anyone wants to know feeding density. They are also eating a lot of algae and micro flora.

rainblood
06-06-2008, 03:55 PM
:pullup: :pullup: :pullup:

Pics. Pics. Pics

Donaldbyrd
06-06-2008, 05:39 PM
:pullup: :pullup: :pullup:

Pics. Pics. Pics

Yes we simply must have pictures:yes:

bonsainut
06-10-2008, 11:39 AM
Hair algae = bad.

I know some people have mentioned this, but I am going to reinforce it. You want to remove hair algae and anything else that your baby koi can get stuck in from the pool/pond. The fry actively hunt in the algae and will wiggle into the smallest spaces where you would swear they cannot get out. In some cases they will manage to get caught in small pockets of water near the surface and in the afternoon the hair algae will trap bubbles of oxygen from photosynthesis and will rise to the surface, trapping the fry and killing them.

I have lost only a few fry from "natural" causes so far, but this morning I came out and found about 3 fry dead in the hair algae. You can generally tell at this stage which are the healthier fry because of their size and general body conformation. These were healthy fry that should not have died. I need to go out today and clean out the pond and hope that the green water and carpet algae have been established enough at this point that by physically removing the hair algae I will be ok.

bonsainut
06-11-2008, 12:22 PM
Here's some photos... approximately 10-14 days of age. Got a lot of the little suckers. :) They've grown a lot in one week.

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koy1.jpg

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koy2.jpg

1USAVET
06-14-2008, 02:24 AM
Good luck with your babies! I am new at keeping koi. I built my pond 2 years ago and now have "babies" that are about 2-3" long (about 4) that survived getting eaten by the koi (13) and comets (20) and turtles (2) that inhabit the pond. Needless to say, I was not trying to have babies, but was so excited when I saw a little flash of color from them for the first time!

I am learning a lot from your postings and look forward to reading more. Maybe I will try to actively grow some fry after learning about what you did with yours. Thanks for sharing! :-)

bonsainut
06-14-2008, 10:02 PM
They are starting to get big now - I'll post photos in a couple of days. Surprisingly, some are starting to really shoot up in size, while others are staying small or (sadly) dying. Each time I go out to the pond now I find one or two tiny bodies. They are small koi and almost look like they never started eating. Sad because I have been feeding heavily with live artemia and 100nm larval food - there is always plenty of stuff floating around.

Not sure what is happening in my pond, but the green water is gone, as is most of the hair algae. I physically removed a lot of the hair algae and it doesn't appear to be growing back - the green water just never got that thick and then cleared right up. You'll laugh, but I swear the fry ate up the green water :) They seem to eat everything else that goes into the water. The other day I was watching and a tiny gnat landed in the water (about the size of a pinhead). I watched a fry look at it and then "gulp" down it went. The gnat was like the size of the fry's head. I'm surprised he got it down. So far no sign of cannibalization but I assume it may come shortly if the big koi keep getting bigger. Starting to see some interesting colors in the koi, but I have no idea yet what I am going to do come culling time. I have thousands and thousands of fry...

matt39
06-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Well if you ever consider selling any some of us are interested :)

PapaBear
06-21-2008, 12:46 PM
I missed this thread earlier, but it sounds like you've made some pretty decent parent selections. Cull for Showa and forget the rest. That will be difficult at first because you'll likely have traditional (dark) and Kindai (light) both from these spawns, but by the time they hit 2" you should be able to see enough to get a good start on it.
I really wouldn't worry about the sponge filters if they are on the pump suction. If you look at my most recent thread you'll see what I'm talking about.

bonsainut
07-04-2008, 04:18 PM
A recent pic from this morning. This is exactly 6 weeks after spawn (so approx. 5 weeks post hatch). I have not culled yet. I lost a fair number (probably about 50 or so) during the move from the hatch pond to this grow-out cage. I have another 10 or so tobies (or toby wannabes) in a separate container.

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/nwkoi.jpg

Donaldbyrd
07-04-2008, 07:46 PM
cute little buggers

Just Jessie
07-04-2008, 07:50 PM
Looks like you are going to have fun sorting them. I see the one I want its the fifth one down and the fourth one over from the right

lukef
07-04-2008, 09:23 PM
good decision on what to spawn.
I just read the thread and when I saw what you asked I thought...
Breed the best hi whether it is on the sanke or the kohaku. that looks like really good hi on those fish so ya done right

Hirogoi
07-05-2008, 12:21 AM
What are toby's?

bonsainut
07-05-2008, 12:49 AM
What are toby's?

Cannibalistic koi. They eat the smallest fish, and as a result, grow faster than the rest of the koi. If you do not remove them, they will eat a large % of your entire hatch.

dalozt
05-03-2013, 01:26 AM
stumble onto your post.. How did the baby grow Bonsainut?

also I have question if your floating plant here the same as mine? the root look the same but yours look Bonsai-ed ;)

http://www.bonsainut.com/images/koy1.jpg

here is mine

http://www.koivista.com/pics2012/dalozt109251_IMG_5946.JPG

Billy Pounds
05-03-2013, 08:56 AM
dalotz...di9fferent plants...bonsai has water hyacinth and yours is maybe some sort of aponogeton... ...is it a native plant to Indonesia or is it from a shop???

dalozt
05-03-2013, 09:12 AM
I got that from a DAM. I have seen small one like Bonsai's as well in here but i tried to find them but couldnt find them again so I thought they are the same. I probably now has to find them as it looks more balance on water and less rotten leaves and twigs when they dried out..

Thank you Allinkdup for pointing that out..

Billy Pounds
05-03-2013, 01:37 PM
you may be able to separate the root or maybe it will clone on it's on....you may consider taking the plant out and slicing a couple of the stems with a little bit of root attached and repot them...if you have root stimulator apply it before putting the plant into new media and container for a little boost for the cuttings....Billy

Koiboy98
05-03-2013, 01:40 PM
post pics how they look like now lol the fry