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PapaBear
05-20-2007, 02:03 PM
Our pond was so calm the other day...:yes:

PapaBear
05-20-2007, 02:07 PM
And then yesterday everything CHANGED:eek1:

PapaBear
05-20-2007, 02:13 PM
Needless to say this was an unplanned flock spawn:rolleyes: , but we don't mind:D: There are 2 very nice male Kohaku we were hoping to breed to the Kin Aka Bekko anyway, and my wifes new Longfin got in on the action too so she is VERY pleased:cheer: We removed some spawning material to let them hatch with a few thousand eggs, good fertility from the looks of things:cool: .
Marion (DW) is holding out for anything pretty with long fins, and I'm hoping for some good Kohaku and Sanke;)

Roark
05-20-2007, 03:52 PM
Moonlight and Roses will do it to 'em every time, PB. :)

Roark

PapaBear
05-20-2007, 04:31 PM
Moonlight and Roses will do it to 'em every time, PB. :)

Roark

Ain't it the truth;) I think it was the alignment of the moon with venus that sent them over the top:yes:

PapaBear
05-23-2007, 08:58 AM
We've got babies...:yes: Not that many so far, but they're segregated in 2 separate areas to see which gives better hatch results (more learning curve stuff:cool: ) We are having a bit of a Whitefly invasion at the moment, and the fry discovered the tiny little buggers in a hurry. Free tiny protein:cool3:

PapaBear
06-01-2007, 12:52 PM
Well, they are now 1 week old. Something (still can't figure out what) got into one of the hatchery areas and completely wiped out the eggs (several thousand) before they even hatched... Don't know what it could have been as we've seen no evidence, but that limited our results to a much smaller batch than we had initially planned for. The good new is, the smaller number is much easier to handle.
There are a few dozen still in the original hatchery pool with water lettuce, hyacinth, etc... and plenty of tiny little bugs to keep them happy along with the supplemental feeding we're providing. I've been feeding them mosquito larvae as a live treat too. They range in size from 3/4" to just over 1", and colors vary from pale yellow to solid black, with what appear to be mostly sanke in between. I netted out 5 random samples to bring indoors to observe, 1 olive chagoi, 2 definite sanke type, and 2 tossups between sanke and bekko. Patterns and color too immature to be certain. I would post some pics, but I can't get a good enough shot of any of them to show anything of value, so I'll wait for a little more growth and try again.

memum64
06-01-2007, 05:06 PM
Mine Are A Week Old And I Can Just Start To See
Bits Of Color
They Are Only 3/4 Long
How Often And What Are You Feeding To Have Them A Inch Already
Im Feading First Bits 2 Times A Day And Algea From Pond
And I Could Only Find Frozen Brine
Do They Need More
I Dont Want To Over Feed And Mess Up The Water

NaturesCall
06-01-2007, 05:21 PM
DO you have dragon flies in the area. THe larvea will eat eggs and young koi.

PapaBear
06-02-2007, 11:37 AM
Mine Are A Week Old And I Can Just Start To See
Bits Of Color
They Are Only 3/4 Long
How Often And What Are You Feeding To Have Them A Inch Already
Im Feading First Bits 2 Times A Day And Algea From Pond
And I Could Only Find Frozen Brine
Do They Need More
I Dont Want To Over Feed And Mess Up The Water

One thing we have been made real believers about when it comes to fry size is the importance of parent size/age. Our first spawn several years ago was with 2 females that were only around 12"-16" in length. The fry were very small and slow to grow, even though we went to extremes with liquifry food, freshly hatched brine shrimp, etc... The growth exceptions were the ones that hatched in the main pond from eggs we missed. They grew at triple the rate of the ones we were feeding all the special stuff:rolleyes:
From that we concluded several things. Small females produce small fry, and fry grow better with natural foods available in abundance than they do with substitutes.
This year the female in question is over 20" long, so the fry were bigger and showed obvious color on day 1. The small pool they are in is well stocked with plants which harbor bug larvae and other natural microscopic food for them, and the only thing we suppliment with are mosquito larvae I net out of a rain barrel and finely ground high protein food and spirulina disks.
Yesterday afternoon we were checking them out and spotted several solid black fry we hadn't noticed before, and no doubt there are at least double the number we can see at any given time.
As far as messing up your water goes, fry need good water and you'll likely need to do frequent water changes no matter what. We use pond water from the main fish pond to do our changes with along with plenty of help from heavy rains lately. Feed well and often, change the water to keep up with it.

PapaBear
06-02-2007, 11:41 AM
DO you have dragon flies in the area. THe larvea will eat eggs and young koi.

I hadn't considered dragonfly larvae. We have a few now and then, but we didn't notice anything swimming around in the area in question. I suppose it's a possibility we'll have to consider in the future.

PapaBear
06-09-2007, 12:00 PM
I was gonna upload some pix of the fry, but I'm getting an error message (memory allocation) Resized photo's, dumped about 1/2 my online folder to make extra room, still won't upload:confused:
Anyway, they are coming along nicely. The smallest are a mixture of shiro/platinum (too small to tell yet) and some solid black fry at 3/4"-1". The largest are 1 1/4" = 1 3/4", mostly Kohaku, Sanke, and Bekko from the looks of things.

PapaBear
06-10-2007, 08:03 AM
Giving picture updates another whirl. We'll see...;)
These pix are from last week of a few we brought inside. No good pix, but at least you get an idea. At 1 week and a couple of days old these were just over 3/4" to about 1 1/4".

PapaBear
06-10-2007, 08:10 AM
These are from yesterday morning. It was overcast, which made the pix a bit hazy (even for me), but at least you can get the idea. These are in a small pool with plants and about 1/2-3/4" of dirt in the bottom of the puddle. Before the fry went into this area earthworms had already set up housekeeping so they've been eating baby worms quite a bit along with other bug larvae and finely ground food from us.
The smallest are just over 3/4", mostly appear to be showing signs of pale Kohaku markings along with some bekko/sanke markings and of course some solid black. The largest is roughly 1 3/4" (didn't net it) but clearly seen in the 4th pic on the far right. It appears to be on the way toward sanke.

PapaBear
06-10-2007, 08:23 AM
I wish I had taken the camera back out with me yesterday afternoon. We went out to feed, and saw a 3 or 4" earthworm fluttering up in the water, with babies swimming around it. They've obviously acquired quite a taste for fresh worm protein, because about 1 dozen of them were grabbing at it and having a good old fashioned tug of war as they all tried to tear off a piece:D:

PapaBear
06-10-2007, 09:28 PM
Well today was another fun one with the babies. I decided to see if I could get them started hand feeding early, so I took about a tablespoon full of powdered food, clamped my hand down on it before slowly dunking it in the water, let it soak about 10 seconds before opening my hand, and it stayed put. It only took 10 seconds for them to get curious, another 20 or 30 secs for the first one to take a nibble, and after that several dozen started munching away. I'll try to get some pics of it tomorrow evening, but the weather here is going to crap at the moment...

PapaBear
06-11-2007, 08:38 AM
I forgot to mention that there were a few "new" discoveries yesterday. We had several small females (<10") that were egg laden as well, and while the big guys were doing their thing, the teenagers followed suit. Since the plants with eggs on their roots were ALL moved at the same time, we know there was not a later spawn for new eggs to come to the fry pond.
Yesterday while feeding the ones we've been talking about, I noticed some tiny swimmers. At first I thought they might be insect larvae, but upon closer examination... they are FRY! At 2 1/2 weeks they are just barely 3/8" long, very skinny, but even at that small size they are not translucent like a newborn. Just miniature versions of the larger fry produced by the larger Koi.
I don't know if I'll be able to get pictures of them right away or not, as they are so small it makes them difficult to spot unless they're moving, but I'll try.
It really drives the point home about parent size being important. I've never seen fry this small before, as the others were at least this large or larger on day 1. How they've managed to survive without becoming a snack for the big guys is beyond me.

PapaBear
06-13-2007, 01:31 AM
Not the greatest (as per usual), but here are some hand feeding pix from today at 2 weeks 6 days old. There are a few small ones at about 3/4", mostly muji, but the Kohaku, Sanke, Bekko, Chagoi, and solid Black are mainly running between 1" to 1 1/2", with one Tubby Toby Sanke (not looking very pretty) at just over 2".
After only 2 days of hand feeding they now hit my hand as soon as it hits the water. They don't even wait for me to open it with the food.

PapaBear
06-13-2007, 08:22 AM
I tried to get pix of the "mini's" from the teenage koi sexcapades, but no luck. It is really amazing that Koi so small (1/2" at the most" can have distinct color markings so clearly visible. Normally fry at that size are so undeveloped you can still see right through them, but since these were hatched from small eggs they are just developing color traits and body structure as normally as their bigger cousins. They're just doing it in miniature.
Once they've grown enough for us to figure out what they are (that could take a while) they have a home waiting. A buddy (who is not a Koi keeper) of mine has a 1/2 acre mudpond across the road from his house. It was built by his grandpa and great uncle in the early 1900's to compliment the native stone house they built for the Uncle. There are no fish in it and he would like some "color" in the pond, so even the culls get a nice big home:D:

cindy
06-13-2007, 08:36 AM
Aren't the colors amazing already? Great pics. What are you going to do with all the koi?

Kat
06-13-2007, 09:15 AM
Neat pics of you hand feeding them. My babies have come to recognize the sound/vibrations of the door opening ... they come swimming over to get fed.

PapaBear
06-13-2007, 09:45 AM
Aren't the colors amazing already? Great pics. What are you going to do with all the koi?

Since the egg population got thinned considerably we only have about 5 or 6 dozen (we think). It's hard to get a good count as there are so many plants.
We plan to move them to some bigger digs in a few weeks as they'll outgrow their current surroundings soon. We'll probably grow them on through the end of July or mid August before thinning (other than obvious physical defects). Keeping Koi with birth defects isn't fair to them in my book:no: .
Once we've had enough time to decide which ones we want to keep for ourselves we'll get them into the main pond with the big guys. At the rate they're growing they ought to be able to handle themselves by then. Most of the culls will probably go to my friends pond I mentioned in the last post, but if there are some I think would benefit from a REAL mudpond I might see if I can place a few with another friend who has one already used for Koi.
I just came in from their morning feeding and noticed a few more big guys pushing 2" hanging out in the plants rather than coming to feed:D: . One of them swam across the puddle as I put my hand in the water and at first I thought it was a young bullfrog:eek1: . It's a big'un:D: The others looked like a couple of Kohaku, Sanke, and Bekko. They are big enough to eat some good size earthworms and small snails, which I'm sure is helping to accelerate their growth. It also makes the finely powdered food I'm giving the others no big deal to them;)

PapaBear
06-13-2007, 09:47 AM
Neat pics of you hand feeding them. My babies have come to recognize the sound/vibrations of the door opening ... they come swimming over to get fed.

Are you hand feeding yours? It's a great way to break them in early:D: (Taking lessons from Kiefer:clap: )

PapaBear
06-16-2007, 12:08 AM
Well, the Tubby Tobi finally set himself up for some decent pictures and some of the teeny tiny's from the Juvenile delinquent spawn (teenagers in the backseat don'tcha know:harhar: ) are finally big enough to get a tolerable shot of.
The bigun' is easily as large as my little finger, and the mini's are only about 1/2", but colored up anyway. Interesting to study the differences.

PapaBear
06-16-2007, 12:19 AM
I thought I'd toss in a few more just for grins. A bit less hazy than the ones from the other day. You might notice there are some of those itty bitty tagalong snails hanging around. When they've pretty well polished off the powdered food I gather up all the snails that are crawling around on my hand and arm and crunch 'em up for desert:D: . The little buggers LOVE it when I do that:D: Lotsa good protein in there once you get the shell out of the way:clap:

SOBA
06-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Hey- got a question for ya... What food did you provide for the first few days after hatch? Or did you just let them naturally find food? Also- did you have a bubbler, or any aeration in with the fry?

PapaBear
06-17-2007, 12:55 PM
Hey- got a question for ya... What food did you provide for the first few days after hatch? Or did you just let them naturally find food? Also- did you have a bubbler, or any aeration in with the fry?

If this had been a spawn we had been fully prepared for that's probably what we would have done... but I think things turned out better the way it happened.

They caught us by surprise (again:rolleyes: ) so as mentioned in the earliest posts we removed the eggs that hatched to a small splash pool at the head of our stream. We didn't have the stream portion of our pond up and running after winter as there was some work we wanted to do on it, so the pool was full of junky water sitting idle:eek1:. My wife LOVES any kind of water feature so she stuck a submersible pump in it with a Polyester batting filter to clean it up and make a mini waterfall. There was still some muck in the bottom of the pool when the fish spawned, but it had been running this way long enough that the plants and earthworms had taken over and cleaned the mess up to create an ideal fry pond with rotifers and literally hundreds of baby worms. When they hatched they had a few days worth of baby food in the water, and we then began supplementing with a mixture powdered high protein pellets and spirulina disks. They thrived on it just being sprinkled in the water at first, and then I began hand feeding to see how much they could eat at one time. We also began observing some of them eating baby earthworms about 1 inch long, and within another week they began getting adult worms (6"-8") and having tug-o-wars with them in between my feedings.
With this particular setup, there is no airstone. The water is simply pumped through a mini trickle filter of Lithaqua which has made water changes a non-issue. I tested there water just a few hours ago, (we moved them yesterday but pumped the same water to their new digs) and the water is as perfect as a fully mature pond.
One side note on the pump in the fry pond. Under normal circumstances this would have been a big no-no as newborn fry are easily sucked in to a pump. This one was set up inside a plastic flower pot that was wrapped with polyfill batting, and enclosed in a plastic crate. The pump intake was so thoroughly diffused over a large surface area that the current was not strong enough to cause the fry any problems.

mars
06-20-2007, 05:24 AM
:yahoo: Great thread!!! Loved all the pics and hope you will keep us updated with them as they grow. Fun to see your feeding by hand photos Good Job :clap:

Marlene

PapaBear
06-20-2007, 06:39 AM
:yahoo: Great thread!!! Loved all the pics and hope you will keep us updated with them as they grow. Fun to see your feeding by hand photos Good Job :clap:

Marlene

We'll keep updates going from time to time. We counted heads the other day and had 92. I've started another thread in the main forum reviewing them for evaluation and culling practice. We'll be growing them out until August or September before deciding which ones to keep here and which to put in my friends farm pond.

Yesterday their mother decided she hadn't quite finished, so 30 days after she laid the last batch of eggs she laid some MORE! I moved some to a seperate pond to hatch out so we'll get to see 2 batches from the same parents.

PapaBear
06-23-2007, 09:22 AM
As mentioned previously, we brought 5 inside. Decided to take 'em back out yesterday so they could be with their bro's so I took a few pix. Still not great, but better than the last shots. I only caught 4 of the 5 as the Chagoi is really good at hiding from me;)
Their growth is pretty comparable. In the past 2 weeks their size has roughly doubled, with the larges being just over 2"

PapaBear
07-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Well, they're almost 8 weeks old now, so I thought I'd give a little update.
A few pics, and a video if I can figure out how to do it right:rolleyes:
For reference sake, the feeding dish is 4 3/4" diameter.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/larziles/FeedingTime1.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/larziles/FeedingTime2.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/larziles/FeedingTime3.jpg
They do love feeding time. They're getting a mix of ground high protein food, crushed snails, and Whole cooked shrimp, ground and frozen.

You Might want to turn the sound off. I wasn't thinking when I shot the video and left the radio on... (talk show stuff)
<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i199.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/larziles/1e524727.flv"></embed>

BekkoIsTheBest
07-17-2007, 11:09 AM
Hungry little guys! Wow They grow up so fast....