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View Full Version : Seriology on a big girl with Dr. Tim



Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 07:04 PM
This afternoon we had the pleasure of Dr. Tim Miller-Morgan and his great assistant Dennis finsihing up with our seriology of our last koi shipment from Japan. Today we worked on a big girl and also did some scrapes and scoped looking fo bugs. Here is the process: essentially the koi is sedated and falls asleep in MS222..and an airstone... she took almost an hour before she went to bed...then you poke and draw blood with a 1.5 in. syringe and off goes the blood sample to be tested by the Georgia lab. After this she is returned to a blue bowl with air and we await her waking up. We salted the pond water at .30% and for some reason the heater stopped and one call and one electrician later water is back on its way to 75.

We will keep our eye on her for possible infection from the blood drawing. We also administered a shot of Amikicin. Now we will wait for the test results...and then off she goes!

It might sound simple but we had three folks doing this...if you think you want to do this get some additional help or call a approved koi vet.

Noahsnana
02-14-2007, 07:09 PM
Excellent pics

vipldy
02-14-2007, 07:12 PM
She is a beaut:yes:

Marie:D:

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 07:12 PM
Thank you.

HanoverKoiFarms
02-14-2007, 07:23 PM
Hi Brian

What results have you gotten back so far? You said two weeks is that right? How do they give you the results.... Positives and negatives or are there other categories as well?

steveamy
02-14-2007, 07:29 PM
You have got some pretty amazing looking fish. That showa is gorgeous.

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 07:32 PM
John: I get a phone call from Dr. Tim Miller-Morgan and he explains to me in ENGLISH what the test say...I have everything in writing...been pretty busy lately....will look at the paper work now that you mention it.

pskorf
02-14-2007, 07:40 PM
Is that Stephen's new showa?

HanoverKoiFarms
02-14-2007, 07:49 PM
I am curious as to what will happen if you get any positives. Do you have a plan of action for this scenario. From what I am reading you are putting a lot of faith in this testing. Not knocking it, and let me commend you for what you are doing. What are the vets and UGA saying that you should do with fish that may come back positive if there are any?

I am also curious as to how many different breeders you purchased from as well. What is the plan if there if there was a positive. Will you call them (the breeders)? Are the fish from each breeder isolated from one another? I would assume they are.

Please don't feel I am being sarcastic here or anything. I am just curious as to how the UGA folks are advising you on these and other matters. Any details would be appreciated, as it looks as though this may be the wave of the near future.

That's a REALLY NICE Showa by the way!!!

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 08:08 PM
John: I got the papers in front of me..Test results: Serum-AB titer-Negative. Then there is a separate page of what they are caloling interpretation of the test results.

Koi Herpes Virus Serilology: The koi herpes virus serology test is a classic viral neutralization assey run in a koi fin cell culture line. Serum is titered from 1:10 through 1;5120 using a 1:2 dilution scheme.
To determine the clinical significance of any antibody titer, paired serum samples taken 2 to 3 weeks apart must be analyzed.
A rising titer of at least 2 dilutions is consistent with acute infection. (Titer sequence is 1:10, 1:20. 1:40. 1:80 etc. Therefore, for example, a significant change would be 1:20 to 1:80)
A falling titer of at least 2 dilutions is consistent with recovery phrase.
A constant titer suggests that the fish has been previously infected and has mounted an antibody response.

That's all I have received John.

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 08:15 PM
John...I am one dealer honestly trying to deal with KHV testing...of course I have a plan of action if I should get a positive response...as far as putting a lot of faith in these tests I don't have a "false sense of security" we are doing everything possible here...this is in one greenhouse on one part of my farm John.

I didn't buy from a lot of breeders..each breeder or two in some cases has his own pond in my greenhouse. If something does happen I will deal with it in a professional way...if after further testing it is recommended that we exterminate the koi we will do what is right.

Are you questioning my integrity?

Charles Pearson
02-14-2007, 08:15 PM
Great Post Brian!

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 08:20 PM
Thank you Charles!

HanoverKoiFarms
02-14-2007, 08:24 PM
John...I am one dealer honestly trying to deal with KHV testing...of course I have a plan of action if I should get a positive response...as far as putting a lot of faith in these tests I don't have a "false sense of security" we are doing everything possible here...this is in one greenhouse on one part of my farm John.

I didn't buy from a lot of breeders..each breeder or two in some cases has his own pond in my greenhouse. If something does happen I will deal with it in a professional way...if after further testing it is recommended that we exterminate the koi we will do what is right.

Are you questioning my integrity?

No way Brian. Not at all. I am curious as to how THEY are advising you. I know your integrity, and I think everytone here does.

I am curious about this because I will most likely be heading down the same path at some point. What I am trying to find out are the details and or plans for how to handle various tests results. What are THEY saying you should do is what I am trying to find out. I can call an talk to them. I am not trying to put you on the spot here or anything. I just want to know what plan of action the people have that developed these tests, and what should be done in THEIR opinion with the fish, the farm, etc. You know biosecurity and all. I just figured since you have been working with them that you could give me some info is all.

RobR
02-14-2007, 08:25 PM
Good post Brian and that is one hell of a fish. Just a slightly off topic question. Why did it take 1 hour too put the fish out with MS 222?
Iv'e always heard it was quick and fast and that was the reason it was superior to oil of cloves. I have never used it but oil of cloves has always knocked them out for me relatively quick. Albeit I have never knocked one out that size.

SouthernStarr
02-14-2007, 08:32 PM
Great thread and pics Brian!

vipldy
02-14-2007, 08:34 PM
WTG Brian:cheer: :cheer: :clap: :clap:

Marie:D:

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 08:38 PM
Rob...great question...Dr. Tim Miller-Morgan had a certain measurement for the gallon size of this tub we were using...this big girl took forever to relax and go to bed...half way into this she woke up and started thrashing...more MS222...then when you try to draw blood from her she isreal sensitive and starts moving..you can't have that..so we put her back to the MS222 and finally no movement when tying to bleed her...she also wouldn't bleed with the first poke or bleeded a little bit but not enough for the sample...finally she gave blood...hurrah for now and waiting for results.

HanoverKoiFarms
02-14-2007, 08:40 PM
Well this has always been a touchy subject that most breeders won't even discuss publicly. Brian and are two of the few that do, but I can see this is taking a wrong turn and that may not be so. I withdraw any questions. I will pursue this in private, and you can discuss publically if you chosse to. I never thought this would be taken this way. I guess this is my fault. So let me apologize if I upset anyone.

Brian Drake
02-14-2007, 08:51 PM
John: No offense taken...thanks for explaining...I understand! I have always respected your posts and ideas...I honestly think you are a "genius" in this field and I highly value you as one of the best breeders of koi period in the world.
I am totally open and I will share anything that I know or have with you or anyone here...this whole thing of QT and KHV testing and waiting for results will give most people ulcers...but beyond my ulcers:no: we are at least trying to improve koi health in the USA.

So please post and keep it going...we have alot to share with the great folks here at Koiphen!!!

RobR
02-14-2007, 08:52 PM
Thanks for the response Brian as that must have been nerve wracking. Great thread and thanks.
John,
I have read your posts over the last year and thank you for your insights. But why would you even care since you have a secure facility, use only your own broodstock, and never allow contamination. I mean how much safer can you be?
Sorry if that was worded wrong as it was not meant to be negative, but for someone like yourself...why would you be worried about khv in your OWN koi?

HanoverKoiFarms
02-14-2007, 08:59 PM
Thanks for the response Brian as that must have been nerve wracking. Great thread and thanks.
John,
I have read your posts over the last year and thank you for your insights. But why would you even care since you have a secure facility, use only your own broodstock, and never allow contamination. I mean how much safer can you be?
Sorry if that was worded wrong as it was not meant to be negative, but for someone like yourself...why would you be worried about khv in your OWN koi?

I will answer in a new thread.

NaturesCall
02-14-2007, 10:23 PM
Brian,
I'm glad to hear you have seperate ponds for each breeder. Very smart move on your part to avoid cross contamination.

cindy
02-15-2007, 01:23 PM
Thanks for sharing. I think the dealers like you that test the koi, would be my choice for new fish.

Dr. Tim. Did he stick the needle in blood thinner before drawing the blood?

BekkoIsTheBest
02-15-2007, 01:26 PM
Lol. I accidently clicked on this thread and saw the pics before reading...I saw a big fish lying on its side..I was about to post how sorry I was that you had lost such a gorgeous fish! Then I read the thread title...LOL

Brian Drake
02-15-2007, 01:28 PM
Cindy: he stuck me as blood thinner:clap: ...I don't thick so...sometimes it takes more than one poke to draw blood...very time consuming and stressful to watch..heck all of these koi are your kids...:yes:

cindy
02-15-2007, 01:31 PM
I know Dr. Sandy dipped the needle into a thinner before drawing at our class. Said it keeps it from clotting.

BekkoIsTheBest
02-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Wow Brian...I wouldn't be able to watch my guys getting stuck with a needle!

PrettyBoy
02-15-2007, 02:14 PM
great work brian. I know I really appreciate this kind of work from an importer. Thank you