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HanoverKoiFarms
04-24-2007, 02:27 PM
No, not really, but I bet most folks would jump to that conclusion too quickly.

Here are some photos of fish that I recently had an issue with.
The general scenario is this:

When we pull fish from the mud ponds, there is a lot of mud in the nets. This causes a liquid sandpaper affect on the fish and can have a detrimental affect on the slimecoat. This is especially true in colder water, and will have a large affect on what we use and when we decide to actually treat them after pulling. Their slime coats are always affected to a degree, it is only the degree that changes from pull to pull. Remember this, as it greatly affects what you are reading.

The following day after pulling them they were scoped and found to have the normal flukes and Trich, but they were pretty infested with both in high numbers. Concerned about the amount of parasites, I decided to forgo my normal two day waiting period before treating, and treated the next day after pulling them. They were crowded and I was concerned about the bugs going crazy in the crowded conditions and causing bigger problems quickly if I did not address the infestation ASAP. It is a normal judgement call we are always faced with in a commercial operation. The fish generally looked and acted very good when I put them into Qt This batch of fish were split into three seperate qt's. Each Qt contained the normal .2% salt solution. We utilize the salt primarily to clam the wild fish, promote slime regeneration, and slow parasite reproduction. IMHO, It does not kill many bugs any longer, but it does still have its purpose. We won't even go into that debate here.

When we treat around here, we have a host of primary products we use for prtozoans: ProForm C, Quick Cure, PP and a couple we use for flukes, Prazi and Fluke Tabs primarily. There are others as well, but these are the primary ones we utilize.Which one we use for each type of bug depends on a few varables. We will get to that later.

In this scenario I used one standard dose of Quick Cure (37% Formalin with malachite green) combo, because it is stronger than ProForm C in solution of both the malachite and the fomalin. I wanted to knock down the bugs quickly because of the crowding of fish. During the first treatment in one Qt, the fish flashed quite a bit that afternoon around 5PM. I had put the treatment in at 7AM that morning however. My first thoughts were that it was caused by the treatment itself, as Quick Cure can cause this reaction due to its strength, or it was simply the bugs becoming more active during the treatment and moving around on the fish more as they were reactingto/being killed by the treatment. This flashing reaction can be quite common, so I was not that concerned on that first day. They will usually stop after that first treatment. I did have some thoughts as to something in the water parameters , especially pH (because of the afternoon flashing) but I had checked everything and all is well. I still did not completely rule out water parameters yet however, as I simply wanted to give it a day before pursuing it further. NEVER rush diagnosing a problem/symptom.The fact that MOST of the fish in only one of three Qt's were flashing is what led me to suspect water/treatment issues over the bugs, but it was too soon to tell, and the water tested fine. The other two Qt fish were flashing only slightly, and only a small percentage of them. Keep in mind that all qt's concerned with this batch were treated the same each day, and all water parametrs were very close to identical in each.

The second day, I did a 90% water change, replenished the salt to .2%, and re-scoped the fish. The Trich were gone/dead, but the flukes remained in force and alive as expected. The fish continued to flash and more frequently in that one Qt, and I had more jumping as well. The symptoms were progressing for sure in that one system, but the fish in the other systems were getting better and looking well with little to no symptoms. Again, I suspected the heavy flukes were the culprit of the symptoms, but wondered why the symptoms had increased in only that system. Again, I was not all that concerned, and wanted another day to see how they would act then. On the third day, I added the Fluke Tabs to address the heavy infestation.

Now, right here I'll bet some of you are syaing " no wonder they are flashing, you are bombarding them with chemicals!" Well, we do it all of the time here, and have very few issues. You have to understand the difference between a commercial operation, as compared to a hobbyist pond of a few fish. We deal in thousands of fish at a time, and most are Qt'd in crowded systems due space and economics. This crowding can cause the parasites to multiply quickly and thus do more damage than successive treatments can. In intensive aquaculture we are always forced to pick between the " best" of two evils, and in this case as usual we chose to knock back the bugs quickly. We can accept small loses this may or may not cause, and this is the difference. This is another case of "do as I say" not as I do" or..."do not try this at home" type of thing. There is a big difference between how I do things in the commercial world, as compared to what I would suggest a hobbyist do in their ponds. Please understand the difference.

The forth day in the problem system showed another increase in flashing and jumping, and now fish were showing signs of reaction of some sort. They were getting a red rash look, and noted to be primarily on their backs only. They were also starting to clamp their fins and sit on the bottom.

I again re-scoped the fish in all systems and found the expected few flukes remaining on the fish in all of the Qt's concerned. Not near enough to cause these symptoms in this one system. No other bugs were found in any systems of these fish as well.

At this point I did EVERY water test I have, and EVERY system was identical in every respect. At this point I wads becoming very concerned as to what was causing this in this one particular system.

The 5th morning, the fluke tab treatment was finished, and the flukes were gone for the most part. The fish in the problem system were again looking worse, and the redness and other symptoms were increasing! So, I did another 90% water change which I would have done regardless.

On the sixth day, nothing much changed, but here let me note that I realized that the flashing was always worse in the afternoon, as well as the redness. Thius got me thinking in another direction. Long story short, I realized that this system gets full sun 85% of the day, and the other systems do not and are inside or shaded. This rash was sunburn!

Now I have always preached about noting the fishes slime coat integrity before treating with anything. If you treat fish with little to no slime coat, you will most likely have problems with reactions, and even cause deaths, and lesson the chances of a successful treatment. Then the treatments do more damage than the bugs. As discussed above, I knew these fish had little slime coat when going into Qt, but by the next morning they did have some. In my experience it was enough slime coat to be somewhat assured that the treatment would not affect them. Keep in mind as well, that only one of three systems had these issues, and EVERYTHING was the same amongst them except for SUNSHINE! Two of the three sytems were either indoors with no sun or 85% shaded all day long. Only the one system was outdoors, clear water, and 100% sun 85% of the day. Basically put, treating the fish with this little slime coat took them edge of what they can handle and allowed the suns UV to penatrate to the skin. Another important clue in all this is the only fish that were affected like this were fish that were non-matallic and white. Even upon very close examination, the other colors (even on the same fisah) were not affected as badly as the white areas. You can see in the photos below what I mean. There was no discrimination from Doitsu to wagoi either, only the fact that non-metallic white is more sensative to the harmfull rays of the sun.

Moral is, don't be so quick to blame the meds...or anything for that matter. Take it one step at a time and you will most likely find the "true" culprit. The slime caot being minimal was the first problem, then the treatments weaken the slime layer further, but the sun was the primary factor that caused the rash. This was proven to my satisfaction.

Joey S
04-24-2007, 02:35 PM
Thanks for that!!! Can we sticky it somewhere. :yes:

madeyna
04-24-2007, 02:41 PM
can it be made downsized ? It doesn,t fit my screen.

HanoverKoiFarms
04-24-2007, 02:45 PM
Thanks for that!!! Can we sticky it somewhere. :yes:

Sure, be my guest.

I also forgot to mention that my primary treatment was to float syrofoam shadeing in the pond. The largest percentage of the flashing stopped with hours. I had noticed in all of this that the redness was always slightly better each morning, but always worsened by afternoon as well. This was another clue that it was the sun. The fish are recxovering nicely.

Also I had to add this above as well:

"When we pull fish from the mud ponds, there is a lot of mud in the nets. This causes a liquid sandpaper affect on the fish and can have a detrimental affect on the slimecoat. This is especially true in colder water, and will have a large affect on what we use and when we decide to actually treat them after pulling. Their slime coats are always affected to a degree, it is only the degree that changes from pull to pull. Remember this, as it greatly affects what you are reading"

KoiValley
04-24-2007, 03:09 PM
Thanks for the interesting story, John! This thread needs to stay here for a while and then be transferred to the library.

Karl

Lee B
04-24-2007, 03:43 PM
Yep: for all the world, it looks like a nice bacterial infection was setting in. You don't think of fish getting sunburn, but as you said, once the slime coat is gone, they're wide-open to things.

(Very!) Nice catch!

HanoverKoiFarms
04-24-2007, 04:52 PM
Yep: for all the world, it looks like a nice bacterial infection was setting in. You don't think of fish getting sunburn, but as you said, once the slime coat is gone, they're wide-open to things.

(Very!) Nice catch!

Yes Lee, I have seen bad Costia cause this look as well. So much so that when it first appeared, I thought Costia right off. The fact that the fish were not acting that badly kept steering me away from bacterail as well. A bacterial infection that would cause this bad of a rash/redness would be quite bad in some of those fish and they would be much more sluggish and not eating most likely.

stephen
04-24-2007, 04:53 PM
Excellent post John:yes: