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View Full Version : Dragon Koi (Leather Koi) general question



ygrowup
02-27-2007, 11:31 PM
I would like opinions and comments on Leather Koi or Dragon koi. I have male (I Think) named Lucifer because of his the red eyes.We bought this fish from a Koi and fish store and were told they are expensive. price at 6" long was $150.00 We bought it and 2 others , a Kin kiko Kiru and a Chigoi ($80.00) total that had been stressed by a delated flight from Japan and all 3 had Aeromonas. with no guarenty that they would live. We thought they would probably die at the store anyhow because they had several to treat and Aeromonas is better treaded individually, so we bought all 3. We kept them in a 55 gallon aquarium to keep a closer eye on water quality and EZ accass for the Daily soaking in Tricide Neo. A great product. That and medicated food caused ulcers to shrink in a couple days and now 2 years later all 3 are doing fine an are about 15" to 22" long in our indoor basement 2500 gallon pond. I dont see much info on Leather Koi on this forum or on any other sites I have read. I would appreciate any input as I would Like to breed this guy some time but need some more info and ideas and probably wouldnt hurt to find a female at some point lol . I will try to post a picture tommorw if I can. Thanks to everyone here for all the Info I get here I wish I could read it all but will keep trying.

koitoo
02-27-2007, 11:36 PM
A warm welcome to Koiphen!!! Leather = doitsu??? We have a lot of very knowledgeable people here. They will definitely answer your questions...

cameopro
02-28-2007, 01:16 AM
The Germans selectively bred carp to have few or no scales to aid in the processing for food . Then the Japanese bred some of their colored koi to varieties of the German carp. One is the leather carp without any scales and the other is a mirror carp that has large mirror scales along each side of the dorsal fin and also along the lateral line on each side of the koi. These are call Doitsu (German) koi. You can find Doitsu koi in most of the kinds of Japanese koi. Many koi people love the look of the (leather) doitsu and even pay more for this variety, I t is a matter of personal taste. I would say (though I may be wrong), as with all varieties of koi the things that make the value of a single koi would also include body conformation, pattern, condition of skin
ect ect, also on breeding koi , koi are not like mammels that when you put 2 parents together the offspring look like the parents, in fact you can end up with several different varieties in one spawning. I bred a pair kikusui (doitsu metallic kohaku) and got gin rin (diamond scales), platinum, sankes , and platinum kohakus and more, very few doitsu. I do think doitsu koi sell at higher prices on average than the regular because like I said, alot of people like them and are willing to pay more, I like the leather koi and have had 1 before and it was great, so I am partial to them.:D: I would love to see a picture of yours:D:

cameopro

Dr J I Phillips
02-28-2007, 01:25 AM
Hi, this is also my understanding of leather Koi - a Koi with no scales. The usual Doitsu Koi have a row of scales running each side of the dorsal fin. Breeding doitsu and fully scaled Koi (wagoi) produces a variety of offspring. Some have large scales and have been referred to as armour.
Scaless Koi are popular with some hobbyists and their is a rarity factor, not every breeder breeds doitsu. The patterned varieties can have clean sharp pattern elements that really catch the eye. At shows the doitsus generally take secon place to the wagoi. It is more difficult to breed Koi with perfect scales. Some shows have separate categories for doitsu Koi. One variety - Shusui is of course doitsu. Depending on the organisers, Shusui can be judged separately from Asagi.

angelsun
02-28-2007, 07:13 AM
also on breeding koi , koi are not like mammels that when you put 2 parents together the offspring look like the parents, in fact you can end up with several different varieties in one spawning.


Is any readiing material available on the genetics? Or what makes a good breeding color combination? From my readings thus far, all that I've been able to find is to breed like to like and that the best examples are not always the best producers.

Thanks in advance,

cameopro
02-28-2007, 09:14 AM
Hi, mostly the books discuss how to breed the fish and take care of the fry, it's hard to find new info on choosing a proper mate for koi, seems Japanese have been keeping this secret for a long while. "Koi Kichi " This book is suppose to have everything about koi very expensive but it is raved about, I can't say that it tells how to choose mates though. . The Professionals Book of Koi is also a good book , you can buy it on ebay or cheaper on amazon.com, when you are selecting koi for breeding remember to: Choose healthy robust stock with good body conformation , good color, ie ...good deep Hi, nice pearly shiro, or deep sumi, The pattern is not as important as the other things, also no defects of course, must be of an age of at least 2 years . I was told once, that when all these were combined usually everything falls into place. sometimes it takes experimenting with different "couples"
to eventually find the ones that produce the best offspring, and sometimes you will be surprised at the adults that produce the prettiest fry.:rolleyes:
You do need to breed like to like ie... sanke to sanke ,showa to showa, ect. If you have a koi with a certain trait that you want, you would breed that with one that has a similar trait to increase chances offspring will have this trait , When breeding showa at the first cull , cull everything but black fry as showa will be black fry, white based koi like sanke and kohaku, the first cull should be for deformities or defects that are noticeable, as they grow patterns will develop and you can cull out what is not acceptable.
LOL
cameopro

angelsun
02-28-2007, 11:02 AM
Hi, mostly the books discuss how to breed the fish and take care of the fry, it's hard to find new info on choosing a proper mate for koi, seems Japanese have been keeping this secret for a long while. "Koi Kichi " This book is suppose to have everything about koi very expensive but it is raved about, I can't say that it tells how to choose mates though. . The Professionals Book of Koi is also a good book , you can buy it on ebay or cheaper on amazon.com, when you are selecting koi for breeding remember to: Choose healthy robust stock with good body conformation , good color, ie ...good deep Hi, nice pearly shiro, or deep sumi, The pattern is not as important as the other things, also no defects of course, must be of an age of at least 2 years . I was told once, that when all these were combined usually everything falls into place. sometimes it takes experimenting with different "couples"
to eventually find the ones that produce the best offspring, and sometimes you will be surprised at the adults that produce the prettiest fry.:rolleyes:
You do need to breed like to like ie... sanke to sanke ,showa to showa, ect. If you have a koi with a certain trait that you want, you would breed that with one that has a similar trait to increase chances offspring will have this trait , When breeding showa at the first cull , cull everything but black fry as showa will be black fry, white based koi like sanke and kohaku, the first cull should be for deformities or defects that are noticeable, as they grow patterns will develop and you can cull out what is not acceptable.
LOL
cameopro

Thank you. I'll check out those books. It seemed odd to me that scientific data doesn't seem to be available and I wondered if it was a matter of not knowing or not telling. Maybe the reality is a combination of both.

Breeding is a much of an art as a science in most species and I believe it's generally accepted that the best parents don't always produce the best offspring (but those conformationally correct should give a good basis to work from). At the minimum, most at least have the color genetics available. I know that it gets much more complicated with patterning variations. Of course in this case, one should get enough quantity to be able to select the quality--provided one knows what to look for.

Best,

Ethan25
02-28-2007, 12:31 PM
PLease post a picture of two of your fish...would love to see them.

I have a couple dragon scaled koi...one ogon, one failed Kujaku maybe....

I also have one that was labeled "leather Koi" that I got from the local pet store.

Here are those three in order. From what I understand, in general, dragon scale fish are less desireable unless they are shusui....but some people really like them (like me).

Ethan

http://photos-349.ak.facebook.com/ip006/v39/100/8/1952460/n1952460_32795349_1592.jpg

http://photos-023.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v56/100/8/1952460/n1952460_34611023_9267.jpg

http://photos-155.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v45/100/8/1952460/n1952460_34099155_4710.jpg

lilhelper
02-28-2007, 12:37 PM
Doitsu(german)- Leather or Mirror in japanese judge standards.
Dragon Koi- Isnt this another word for butterfly koi?

angelsun
02-28-2007, 01:01 PM
Doitsu(german)- Leather or Mirror in japanese judge standards.
Dragon Koi- Isnt this another word for butterfly koi?

I'll preface this with I'm new to koi but not to ponding. IF I'm understanding correctly, "dragon scale" is slang or a marketing term for the larger Doitsu scalation that looks like a dragon or armor.

Here's a photo of 4 of mine (I call it the koi congoline) and what they are to the best of my knowledge.

http://reborns.bizland.com/koi/congo.jpg

1. "Dragonscale" Yamabuki Butterfly
2. "Dragonscale" Platinum Butterfly
3. Doitsu Orengi
4. Kohaku Butterfly (hoping his pattern comes together)

cameopro
02-28-2007, 01:13 PM
Yes dragon koi are butterfly koi,or longfin koi, thanks for pointing that out, I didn't see that.:yes: Dragon (butterfly) koi and leather koi are two different things , However a butterfly can be a doitsu.

lilhelper
02-28-2007, 01:16 PM
I was thinking dragon would have long fins, resembling wings.

lilhelper
02-28-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes dragon koi are butterfly koi,or longfin koi, thanks for pointing that out, I didn't see that.:yes: Dragon (butterfly) koi and leather koi are two different things , However a butterfly can be a doitz.Ah, ok thanks.

angelsun
02-28-2007, 01:28 PM
Yes dragon koi are butterfly koi,or longfin koi, thanks for pointing that out, I didn't see that.:yes: Dragon (butterfly) koi and leather koi are two different things , However a butterfly can be a doitz.

So, it would follow that all dragonscale are butterfly (or long fin) koi but not all butterfly koi are dragonscale. Correct? (The line of deliniation being the scalation.)

cameopro
02-28-2007, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=angelsun;897769]I'll preface this with I'm new to koi but not to ponding. IF I'm understanding correctly, "dragon scale" is slang or a marketing term for the larger Doitsu scalation that looks like a dragon or armor.



Dragon koi are butterfly koi

Doitz or sometimes called mirror (large scale plates) or leather is a type of scales on any koi. the term doitz has nothing to do with finnage only the type of scales or lack of the fish has. hope this clears it up.

ygrowup
02-28-2007, 09:22 PM
The Koi I have ie not a butterfly. It has no scales ,only a skin similar to a catfidh. I think Leather Koi is the proper name. I wae told whenI bought it that both were coprrect ,ihave since seen dragon koi more accociated with butterfly koi. I have been trying to get a picture oa here but my card reader wont function today. That usually happens when you really need it.I will get a picture here soon tohelp us all. Thanks for al the info so far I appreciate it all. Be back soon. JIM

ygrowup
02-28-2007, 09:36 PM
Here is a picture I found from the day we released it into the larger basement pond. I still havant got the current one to cooperate. Hope this shows the smooth skin . The pattern on top is not scales only part of the coloration. Thanks again to everyone replying to this post. JIM

angelsun
02-28-2007, 09:54 PM
[SIZE="2"] the term doitz has nothing to do with finnage only the type of scales or lack of the fish has. hope this clears it up.

Yes, I'm very clear on the definition of Doitsu and the definition of Butterfly or Long Fin.


What I'm trying to ascertain is an established definition of dragon koi or dragonscale koi. Is there a written standard on this? Or it is a marketing term?

cameopro
03-01-2007, 12:29 AM
Very nice picture...
That would be a doitsu koi of what variety is hard to tell i would need a picture from the top;)


Here is a picture I found from the day we released it into the larger basement pond. I still havant got the current one to cooperate. Hope this shows the smooth skin . The pattern on top is not scales only part of the coloration. Thanks again to everyone replying to this post. JIM

cameopro
03-01-2007, 12:34 AM
Oh I misunderstood, I am sorry, However I do not know the answer to that question. It seems I have heard the term but I don't know if it an established definition of dragon koi or dragonscale koi, sorry.:no:



Yes, I'm very clear on the definition of Doitsu and the definition of Butterfly or Long Fin

What I'm trying to ascertain is an established definition of dragon koi or dragonscale koi. Is there a written standard on this? Or it is a marketing term?

Graham
03-01-2007, 08:35 AM
The terms Dragon koi or Dragon scale koi are just marketing....One refers to B'fly koi while the other refers to a doitsu koi with random or multiple large scales giving it an armoured appearance....anything to sell a fish

A good doit will have a nice even line of scales through the dorsal and possibly through the nape/head area. They should be uniform and even, just like a zipper down the dorsal. The scales on the nape should not have a tortoise shell appearance either

The same thing applies to the lateral line scales...uniform and in a straight line with no random individual scales.

The fish pictured above looks to be a Doitsu Ochiba

luke-gr
03-01-2007, 11:59 AM
Welcome! That picture sure looks like some scales on the side and the top, but I'll take your word for it. You have had several folks mention the history of doitsu fish. I have a couple doitsu fish myself.

garyr
03-02-2007, 03:38 PM
"water dragon" was an early term used by the Japanese to refer to what we call butterfly. The initial breeding between the nishikigoi and the Korean longfin carp was done in parallel in Japan and the US. If you wanted to be really picky you could say that a "water dragon" is an offspring of the original Japanese crossing(s) and a butterfly an offspring of the US crossing(s).

Since these koi never really caught on in Japan, the dragon term never caught on either. I read an article on this a couple years ago.

PapaBear
03-12-2007, 11:53 PM
Dragon "Scale" is a purely marketing term, used to make armour scale Koi sound special. Armour scale (mirror carp) are Koi Hybrids with irregular scale patterns that are never desireable in show Koi. I know there are some here who are fond of them, but in Japan they are junk fish and probably always will be.
Dragon Koi is common slang for Longfins, which may be normally scaled or Doitsu. They are a hybrid of Japanese Koi and Indonesian Carp.
Doitsu come in 2 varieties. Leather and scaled. The preeminent leather variety that comes to my mind is Kikisui, which is basically a leather Kohaku. They can be completely scaleless or have large dorsal scales.
The most prominent Scaled doitsu is obviously Shusui, which has bold indigo blue dorsal scales. Kikokuriu are another Doitsu variety growing in popularity, (my wife loves the beni kikokuriu a LOT)
Longfins (dragon Koi) are growing in popularity, but most purists still consider them "not true Koi". That is slowly changing, for better or worse depending on your point of view. My wife wants some:rolleyes: ........ I don't;) She WILL have her wish:D: