PDA

View Full Version : plumbing, head, gravity flow, system curve, etc..



boggen
01-03-2007, 02:14 AM
an attempt to place varying diagrams and explanations into one thread.

the posts themselves are out of order, i would strongly encourge you to just click on the links noted below. instead of trying to find a given post some place in this thread.
for those like myself that are using dail up and wish to view all the posts together. you may need to refresh the page a few times to get all the diagrams / pictures to load up. i have attempted to keep file sizes small. but :rolleyes:
index / table of context
this section
figuring out head loss, and what pump to buy
if you don't like math, or math don't like you, ya prolly want to skip this section
Everything you always wanted to know about drains, but didn't know how to ask!
waterfalls
HANDS ON EXPERIMENTS
BIO FILER CAPACITY
EXCEL FILES
MISC. INFO.
credits
figuring out head loss, and what pump to buy

difference between gravity flow of water and pressurized flow of water. along with identifing gravity flow and pressurized flow. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847557&postcount=2)
differrent types of head losses, and/or friction losses. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847559&postcount=3)
examples in identifying different head losses (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847559&postcount=4)
charts for (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5)
dynamic major head losses (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5)
dynamic minor head losses (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5)
gravity head losses (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5)
velocity (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5)
example of figureing out total head loss ( 6 different examples for one one pond ) (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847588&postcount=6)
if you don't like math, or math don't like you, ya prolly want to skip this section


nothing but equations / formulas / and lots and lots of math (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847642&postcount=17)
Everything you always wanted to know about drains, but didn't know how to ask!

bottom drains and partial explanation of TPR's
bottom drain gap height diagrams and chart to set gap height (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848800&postcount=19)
bottom drain advance gap height settings. or for the home made drains and domes. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=851333&postcount=38)
ronin-koi 3d diagram showing bottom drain, air diffuser on bottom drain dome, and TPR's ( trigental point returns ) (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848962&postcount=20)
types of drains / bottom drains / bottom drains with air diffusers (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848962&postcount=21)
guilt trip, WHY you want a bottom drain hooked into your filteration system. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848996&postcount=22)
TPRs ( trigental point returns ) and partial explanation of drains

depth placement of TPRs (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849055&postcount=27)
TPR's, CYLINDER shape pond. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849032&postcount=24)
TPR's, SQUARE shape pond. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849042&postcount=26)
TPR's, OVAL shape pond (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849085&postcount=28)
TPR's, RECTANGLE shape pond (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849094&postcount=29)
recap of basic 4 tpr diagrams / info on applying the basics to more complex shapes (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849107&postcount=30)
misc drain and tpr placement diagrams. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849120&postcount=31)

WATERFALLS

for pictures of waterfalls of other members of the forum click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49341)
waterfalls, understanding / building / useses (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849120&postcount=32)
chart waterfall weir sizing (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849140&postcount=33)
(( not completely done yet )) examples, links to waterfall builds, and other misc information. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850165&postcount=33)
(( not yet done )) placement of waterfalls on pond (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850363&postcount=35)
(( not yet done )) diagrams of placement of waterfalls. (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850368&postcount=36)
(( no yet done )) more diagrams of placement of waterfalls (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850368&postcount=37)
HANDS ON EXPERMENTS

bottom drains / drains (http://http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849012&postcount=23)
TPR postioning and TPR currents (http://http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849012&postcount=23)
TPR currents (http://http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849012&postcount=23)
glass sheet waterfall vs splashing waterfall (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849012&postcount=23)currents (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849012&postcount=23)
BIO FILTER CAPACITY

(( not yet done simply making room to explain excel file ))
EXCEL FILES

direct link to post with excel files (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=851545&postcount=40)
MISC. INFO.

if ya see a mistake some place, plz let me know.
welcome all critisim of any kind.
if ya have any questions ask! ya never going to know if ya don't ask! been there done that, no fun. ask, get over that speed bump and move on. tis one of the reasons for a forum.
i realize my own downfall is my wording (coughs mis-spellings ) but my words and ways of phrasing things can be confusing, they confuse myself some times. i encourge ya to reply to this thread or make another thread and restate it or what not. or simply ask about it. i barely remeber it, but i do remeber being a newbie. we all were one time or another.
CREDITS

in no order what so ever.
stephen and mary, for creating this awesome forum
all the koiphen family, for ya newbies that means you, and you guests!
speaking of guests, SIGN UP ALREADY see the pictures!
LeeKinneyKoi, helping different random things, and picture taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39858)
Ronin-Koi, for a bottom drain picture taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=505008&postcount=39), and drain/tpr diagram, taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46535)
JanetMermaid, pictures taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49307)
NatureCalls, pictures taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49307)
bone333, picture taken from is a lost thread.
avorancher, picture taken from is a lost thread.
unknown person, picture taken from unknown click here, for more details upon picture in question (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850165&postcount=33)
birdman, pictures taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49341)
ponderingkoi, pictures taken from here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49341)
already deleted PM, who told me about this naming? PM me again:rolleyes: :( "Everything you always wanted to know about drains, but didn't know how to ask!"
if i missed someone or something, plz let me know!

boggen
01-03-2007, 03:41 AM
difference between gravity flow of water and pressurized flow of water.

GRAVITY FLOW OF WATER

when water flows between 2 bodes of water. that are connected by a common channel / stream / pipe. and simply the difference between the heights of water level between the 2 bodes of water, causes the water to move from one body of water to the other body of water. this would be known as gravity flowing of water
Or in another thought to above comment "water seeks its own water level".
another way to identify gravity flow. is when ever water flows from one body of water to another body of water. and both bodies of water are open to the air. aka not sealed tighted containers.
water in a stream does NOT flow UP HILL, but it flows down hill. hence gravity flow of water.
when water falls off a waterfall weir. the water doesn't go up towards the sun. the water falls down. hence water falling down, or rather gravity flow of water.
when you have a sink full of water and you pull the drain. the water flows out the drain by gravity.PRESSURIZED FLOW OF WATER

when ever water is flowing up hill. the water is in a pipe or encased in a filter, that is not open to the atmostphere. normally a water pump or perhaps an air lift pump or some other device provides HEAD (( pressure )). to move the water up the hill
the pipe, fittings, and filters, between water pump inlet side (( suction side )) to the first body of water that is open to the atmosphere.
the pipe, fittings, and filters, between water pump outlet side (( pressurse side )) to the first body of water that is open to the atmosphere.PICTURES / DIAGRAMS A

below diagrams is my bad attempt, to show pressurized pipe runs and gravity flow pipe runs.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/1.gif
a little bit of everything.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/2.gif
could be a pond and a gravity flow filter
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/3.gif
same thing as above diagram, just bodies of waters and pump moved around
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/4.gif
this is kinda scary, being a pressurized filter before the pump. for the average folk, that includes myself!, that would be a NO NO, if ya new your stuff above cavitation point. great, if not. suggest not doing such a thing.
but that pressurized filter, could very well be a priming pot or leaf basket pot. which may be very well acceptable.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/5.gif
removs the water fall, possibly a QT tank setup?
this would be a no no. if the bottom 2 pipe lines ran water to the left. (( see above diagram )), but if water moved to the right it would be just fine.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/6.gif
this is kinda of a scary setup, trying to gravity flow water through a pressurized filter. but what if the pressurized filter was a UV, or some other pressurized filter that had very little filter / device head loss? it might be very well be accetable. and possible
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/7.gif
this setup just plain scares me, if the body of water is a pond. i am seeing no filters what so ever.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/8.gif
kinda looks like a small size pond or QT tank setup, were a bead filter for example is only filter for pond.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/9.gif
exactly same thing as above. but just drawn different
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/10.gif
don't know why you would have such a thing. but its a simlized drawing show pressureized flow of water, perhaps a boiler / heat exchanger setup?
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/11.gif
possible a pond and a couple gravity flow filters.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/12.gif
looks like a pond that gravity flows to a good mechanical filter, then bio and fines filters above pond water level to me.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/13.gif
looks like same thing as above, but one of the filters traded out for a pressurized filter
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/14.gif
looks like even a simpler version that above 2 diagrams. perhaps a small pond or QT tank setup?
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/15.gif
looks to me, someone ran out of room, or just really likes a combination of multi different types of filters. perhaps the filter with waterfall is actually a trickle tower?
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/16.gifPICTURES / DIAGRAMS B

the animated diagram is simply showing a pond and 3 gravity flow filters. it would act something like #2, #3, #9, #11 in diagrams noted above
basicly the above animated diagram is showing the following...
water pump is off
water pump gets turn on
water pump starts draw water from filter 3
fitler 3 water level lowers.
water gravity flows from filter 2 into filter 3
filter 2 water level lowers
water gravity flows from filter 1 into filter 2
filter 1 water level lowers
water gravity flows from pond into filter 1
water gravity flows into pond, from waterfall
as water fills up pond, pond water level rises a little bit.
eventally, all water levels will find a running water level.http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/gravity1.gif

PICTURES / DIAGRAMS C

basicly the above animated diagram is showing the following...
water pump is off
water pump gets turn on
water pump starts draw water from filter 3
fitler 3 water level lowers.
water gravity flows from filter 2 into filter 3
filter 2 water level lowers
water gravity flows from filter 1 into filter 2
filter 1 water level lowers
water gravity flows from pond into filter 1
water gravity flows into pond, from waterfall
as water fills up pond, pond water level rises a little bit.
eventally, all water levels will find a running water level.
at this time i toss a peice of debriee (( brown chunk in diagram )) into pond, and show the debrie slowly moving through pond and filters. and slowly getting broken down and removed from the water.http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/gravity1movie.gif

PICTURES / DIAGRAMS D

this is my bad attempt to show water flow through pond and the 3 gravity flow fitlers. by using the brown color as flow direction.http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/gravity2movie.gif

boggen
01-03-2007, 03:53 AM
differrent types of head losses, and/or friction losses.

friction loss
head
static head
dynamic head
dynamic major head
dynamic minor head
gravity head
suction head
draw down head
filter or device headfor examples of identifing head losses shown in diagrams ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847563&postcount=4) )

FRICTION LOSS
have you ever gotten a rug burn? if ya did, your skin moving across the rug caused friction the result was of the friction was you getting burend.
in the pond / aquiram / salt tank worlds. we deal with friction loss, in our plumbing and filters, as we flow water through them.
we commonlly refer friction loss as a measurement of pressure loss. normaly being PSI ( pressure per square inch ) or Head of water in feet, or head of water in inches, in the US.
many times folks will simply say Head in inches, or head in feet. and leave out "of water" part.
which brings us to the next part...
HEAD

head is a form of measurement of pressure. example PSI (( pressure per square inch )). Head is a measurment of depth of water. normally measured in, feet, inches, meters, or centi-meters.
for other forms of pressure and ways to convert pressure from one pressure to another pressure check out below site. once at site. scroll down and click on pressure.
http://www.onlineconversion.com
STATIC HEAD

pretty easy and straight forward head measurement.
the vertical ( up down ) distance between pond surface water level. and the highest point water exits above the pond surface water level.
NOTE. this does not include pipeing, fittings, filters, etc... this is only the vertical measurent. not lengths or amounts of anything. just the vertical measurement.
not everyone will have static head loss. example if you don't have a waterfall you may not have any static head.
normally measured in feet of head.
DYNAMIC HEAD

dynamic meaning it changes per each situation
there are 2 types of dynamic head.
Major deals with length of straight pipe in a pipe run.
Minor deals with fittings, valves in a pipe run.
some things to keep in mind, when dealing with dynamic head loss.
the faster the flow rate, the more head loss you will have.
a smaller sized diamter pipe vs a larger sized diamter pipe. the smaller pipe will have more dynamic major head loss vs the larger pipe that will have less dynamic major head loss.
a smaller sized diamter fittings vs a larger sized diamter fittings. the smaller pipe will have more dynamic major head loss vs the larger pipe that will have less dynamic major head loss.
longer the length of straight pipe you have. the more head loss you will have.
DYNAMIC MAJOR HEAD

Dynamic MAJOR head deals with straight length of pipe.
there are many varities to caculate the head loss. 3 of the more common ways to caculated dynamic major head loss are...
darcy weisbach head loss equation
this seems to be the more favored equation out there, for caculating dynamic major head loss. namely, the equation can work with alot of other liquids, such as salt water and gas (air) in calculating the dynamic major head loss.
the equation itself is best used in a spread sheet or some program. were a computer can perform the multi calulations in only a matter of a second. compared to hand writing it out could take a good sum of time.
the equation relies on 2 other numbers that can be derived from a set of other eqations. one of which is reynolds number. this number will determind what the other equation gets used for the 2nd number.
this 2nd number is the friction factor. pending on what renoylds number equals, there could be a easy list of 10 plus equations you could then use to obtain the best closet caculated estimated dynamic major head loss.
if ya more intrested in what is what. do a search on your favorite search engine. for "head loss" or "darcy weisbach head loss" or "cole-broke equation" or "moody diagram" or swain jain friction factor, or... and the list goes on.
a good source of information can be found at...
www.engineeringtoolbox.com (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com)
www.advancedaquarist.com (http://www.advancedaquarist.com)
any many other sites.

hazen and williams head loss equation

this equation is only good for fresh water, attempt to use it for salt water or gas ( air ) and you be out of luck. this equation is handy for out in the field and you want to quick way to calculate the dynamic head loss, without going through a bunch of math. the numbers that are returned from the equation are more off than what darcy weisbach equation would be.
mannings equation.

this equation is more favored for gravity flow of water. such as streams and channels.

all 3 give almost the same dynamic head loss. but there can be enough of a difference to have another 2 or 4 feet more loss than another equation.
why all the whoot of above 3 equations? folks seem to love charts. some charts are based on varying assumptions. and these assumputions normally not always state what the assumptions are.
DYNAMIC MINOR HEAD

dynamic minor head loss is for calculateing the loss of fittings and valves.
there are a couple sets of equations.
one equation will give you the equvilent straight length of pipe.
meaning, you simply add the value you get from the equation, and add it into your straight length of pipe, then take the total straight length of pipe, and use a dynamic major head loss equation on all of it.
there are many charts out there like this. you need to be carefull of using such charts. many of these charts only work for a single flow rate. example 2,000 gallons per hour, but if you used the numbers for these charts for say 1,000 gallons per hour, or 3,000 gallons per hour. your end result head loss may be way way off.
granted the equation is nice for charts. but there is a easier way of doing things if you are writing all the math out.
there is another equation that will gives you a dynamic minor head loss directly

this equation skips using the converstion to equivlent length of pipe , and gives you a head loss for a fitting or valve directly.
both of the equations rely on a K value, or rather K coefficent for the fitting or valve. some times instead of a K coefficent, there will be a CV coeffiecent in which there is an equation to convert a CV coefficent to a K coefficent.
GRAVITY HEAD

this is only going to be getting used for gravity flow of water.
a gravity pump would describe the use of difference in elevation of water between 2 bodies of water connected by a common submerged pipe to obtain a given flow rate. the gravity head, is that elevation difference
in all honesty, Gravity Head, or Elevation Head, or elevation Difference head, or Gravity Pump Head, Velocity Head, to many others could be used. to this day still trying to come to some common ground of what to call this. or if there is a specific name for this head that is used in the plumbing world.
this thread ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49571) ), has a few more charts than what is posted in the chart section, along with gravity head typed out in equations, that you could follow along. if you wish to figure out your own gravity head and go through the equations.
SUCTION HEAD

there 2 reasons for obtaining suction head.
is to include the head loss when figuring total head.
but main reason of suction head. is to calculate the cavitation point of a water pump.
in lamen terms. the cavtation point of a water pump. is the point were the pump creates so much suction. that the water pump litterly pulls the air out of the water.
normally water pumps can push (outlet side) a great deal more pressure. vs pulling pressure. (inlet side) and this is due to cavitation. and reason why you rarly ever see a pressurized filter on the inlet side of a water pump. or less the given person knows there stuff more or less.
if your pump sounds like it is grinding rocks, there is a good chance your pump is cavitating.
a pump that is cavitating, can have dramatic much more wear and tear on the pump causing the pump to not last as long, or the cavitation can be so bad, that the pump itself does not pump any water.
DRAW DOWN HEAD

gravity flow filters can have draw down issues. meaning. folks improperly selected a water pump. and the water pump is litterly to big / sucking the gravity filter nearest to the pump inlet. competely dry of water.
or they improperly sized the diameter of there pipes and fittings. for there gravity flows, and are having problems with water level needing to be 2 low. to flow the given flow rate they want to flow. through there filter setups.
the main purpose for this head for me, is to figure out roughly what water level will be in a gravity flow filter vs the body of water before it. so the inlets and outlets on the filter can be placed correctly. along with figuring out size of pipe to use for gravity flow of water.
in the simplist form. draw down is the sum of gravity head plus dynamic heads.
FILTER or DEVICE HEAD

ya can't have a total head without a filter head losses.
most of the time manufactors will state a range of flow rates for a filter. most likely ya prolly want to stay within those flow rates for any given filter. and ya prolly be wanting to stay within those flow rates. there be limits for a reason some were in there.
but the more tricker part than finding flow rates. are the friction losses, or the head losses at given flow rates. for the filter or device.
you will most likely find the head losses for pressurized filters, more so for bead filters and sand filters (( think of a type pool type pressurized filter ))
on gravity flow filters, it may be slim pickings in finding head losses, mainly due to gravity flow filters if they have any sort of head loss, it will have a dramatic effect on draw down head. and if there has to be 12 inches of draw down head to flow water. ya talking about 12 inches of a filter chamber that is not getting used. filter chambers are costly and always have been costly and prolly always will be costly.
TOTAL HEAD

total head or rather total head loss. is a sum of all head losses
total head is mostly used to create a profile system curve chart for there setup. with a system curve. folks can then find out what water pump would best fit there setup.
because folks ((including myself)) end up changing something here or there during the planning stages and building stages, and selecting different things. if folks buy a water pump right off the get go. they could easly have bought a pump that does not produce enough flow or to much flow for there setup. and because of this we have, heads, and system curves.
for examples of identifing head losses shown in diagrams ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847563&postcount=4) )

boggen
01-03-2007, 04:55 AM
DIAGRAM 1
static head
note that i did not draw the line clear up to filter 4, but to the top of filter 5. remeber static head is measured from point it exits, or rather the water flows into a chamber that is open to air. or end of a pipe that is open to air.
draw down head loss

same for all 3 draw down head losses.
water is flow by gravity, so there is gravity head loss
there is length of straight pipe, so there is dynamic major head loss
there is fittings, so there dynamic minor head loss
filter 4, is a pressurized filter.

for diagram, note difference between tops of filters 1,2,3,5 vs filter 4. in that filter 4 has a closed top. this is my bad attempt to show a pressurized filter.http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/dia1.gif

DIAGRAM 2

just like diagram 1, but more simplified
water is not being returned above pond water surface, so there is no static head.
there is no pressurized filter, so we don't have any pressurized filter head.
but we do have water flowing by gravity.http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/dia2.gif
DIAGRAM 3

there are 2 static heads in this diagram. in reality. it would simply be easier to treat the upper pond as if just part of a multi teir waterfall. and measure static head from lower pond to top of filter 3.
notice filter 2, is a pressurized filter. the goal is simple showing another placement for a pressurized filterhttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/dia3.gif
DIAGRAM 4

no static head. because water is not being returned above pond water level
we do have one pipe run that is flowing by gravity, so gravity head loss
and we have two prssurized filters (( filter 2 and filter 3 ))

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/dia4.gif

DIAGRAM 5

almost exactly like diagram 4. but we haave a static head loss. because water is exiting above pond water level

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/dia5.gif

boggen
01-03-2007, 06:38 AM
Charts

Dynamic MAJOR head loss
in feet (( for 10 feet of straight length of pipe )) (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/lossmajor1.gif)
example
you have 20 feet of 2" pipe
and you will be flowing 4000 gallons per hour through pipe.
looking up 4000 gallons per hour and 2" pipe in above chart. we get...
8.64536 feet per 10 feeet of straight pipe
20 * 8.64536 / 10 = 17.29072 dynamic MAJOR head loss in feet

in inches (( for 10 feet of straight length of pipe )) (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/lossmajor2-1.gif)
example
you have 23 feet of 3" pipe
and you will be flowing 2000 gallons per hour through pipe.
looking up 2000 gallons per hour and 3" in the inches chart above. we get....
2.36322 inches per 10 feet of straight pipe
23 * 2.36322 / 10 = 5.435406 dynamic major head loss in inches

Dynamic MINOR head loss

K values
basic fittings, valves, reducers (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/fit1.gif)
more valves, misc fittings, and enterence and exits (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/fit2.gif)
yet more misc fittings (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/fit3.gif)
to obtain dynamic minor head loss in feet.

take K value found in above charts
then find gallons per hour, to pipe size, in gravity head loss in feet noted below
then multiply the 2 numbers together to get dynamic minor head loss in feet.
example
2" long radius 90 = 0.3 K value
at 1000gph using 2" pipe we get 0.14231 feet
0.3 * 0.14231 = 0.042693 dynamic minor head loss in feet for a long radius 2" 90

to obtain dynamic minor head loss in inches.

take K value found in above charts
then find gallons per hour, to pipe size, in gravity head loss in inches below
then multiply the 2 numbers together to get dynamic minor head loss in inches.
example
2" long radius 90 = 0.3 K value
at 1000gph using 2" pipe we get 0.54034 inches
0.3 * 0.54034 = 0.162102 dynamic minor head loss in inches for a long radius 2" 90

Gravity Head loss

in feet (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/lossele1.gif)
in inches (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/lossele2.gif)
Velocity

in feet per second (http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/velocity.gif)
note all the above head losses can be easly be caculated using ( headloss_bottomdrains.xls ) excel spreadsheet file. ( click here (http://boggen.110mb.com/excel_files/index.html) ) to goto excel file page for more information.
--------------------
updates / fixes

2.20.2007 corrected ( dynamic major head loss in inches chart )

boggen
01-03-2007, 07:47 AM
using the below diagram, there are the following examples. using different flow rates and pipe sizes. are noted in this page.

example 1
the basics
pond = 2000 gallons of water in size
we are using 3" pipeing and fittings for all pipe runs.
we have a water pump that has 2" outlet and 2" inlet
we are going to shoot for 1 hour turn over rate. so we will need 2000 gallons per hour of water going through all filters, and all pipe runs.
doing the math we get
2.463493 = total head loss in feet
1.5174528 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
0.8032368 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
0.8032368 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3

example 2

uses 2 " for all pipes and fittings instead of 3 "
everything else is same as example 1
doing the math we get
4.6527214 = total head loss in feet
9.0428772 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
4.301928 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
4.301928 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3

example 3

uses 3" for pipe runs 1 through 3, and 2" for pipe runs 4 and 5
everything else is same as example 1
doing the math we get
3.4424875 = total head loss in feet
1.5174528 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
0.8032368 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
0.8032368 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3

example 4

uses 3000 gallons per hour instead of 2000 gallons per hour. to achive 30 minute turn over rate of water for the pond.
everything else is same as example 1
doing the math we get
3.0021359 = total head loss in feet
3.275448 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
1.7865768 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
1.7865768 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3

example 5

uses 2 " for all pipes and fittings instead of 3 "
uses 3000 gallons per hour instead of 2000 gallons per hour. to achive 30 minute turn over rate of water for the pond.
everything else is same as example 1
doing the math we get
7.7018354 = total head loss in feet
19.43697 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
9.5442528 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
9.5442528 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3

example 6

uses 3" for pipe runs 1 through 3, and 2" for pipe runs 4 and 5
uses 3000 gallons per hour instead of 2000 gallons per hour. to achive 30 minute turn over rate of water for the pond.
everything else is same as example 1
doing the math we get
5.0620959 = total head loss in feet
3.275448 = draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1
1.7865768 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2
1.7865768 = draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totaloss1-1.gif



to make things easier, i choped out the needed parts of given charts, and included it in below diagram ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) ) to see the complete charts

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/chart.gif

AND NOW FOR ALL THE MATH !!!

EXAMPLE 1

for this example some assumputions are made
pond = 2000 gallons of water in size
we are using 3" pipeing and fittings for all pipe runs.
we have a water pump that has 2" outlet and 2" inlet
we are going to shoot for 1 hour turn over rate. so we will need 2000 gallons per hour of water going through all filters, and all pipe runs.
in the diagram i drew out each pipe run, showing stragiht length of pipe and fittings. to make it easier to say what was what in each pipe run.
i also drew out static head.
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.

we know we will be flowing 2000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
we know we will be using 3" for all pipes and fittings
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for dynamic major head loss.
0.03302 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss K values.

0.03 = coupling
0.29 = standard elbow long radius 90
0.28 = reducer (( sudden contraction )) (( 3" pipe to 2" water pump inlet ))
0.31 = reducer (( sudden expansion )) (( 2" water pump outlet to 3" pipe ))
for gravity head loss

0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet.

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.057785 = 17.5 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0085852 = 2.6 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0085852 = 2.6 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.0194818 = 5.9 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.108966 = 33 * 0.03302 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.93 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.89 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.28
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 1.21 = 0.31 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.0330894 = 0.93 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0227712 = 0.64 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0227712 = 0.64 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.0316662 = 0.89 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.0430518 = 1.21 * 0.03558
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.057785 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0085852 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0085852 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.0194818 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.108966 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.0330894 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0227712 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0227712 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.0316662 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.0430518 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

2.463493 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 1.5174528 = 0.057785 + 0.0330894 + 0.03558 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 0.8032368 = 0.0085852 + 0.0227712 + 0.03558 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 0.8032368 = 0.0085852 + 0.0227712 + 0.03558 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))
EXAMPLE 2

for this example the only thing that changes form EXAMPLE 1, is that we will be using 2" pipe and fittings for all pipe runs.
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.
we know we will be flowing 2000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
we know we will be using 2 " for all pipes and fittings
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for dynamic major head loss.
0.22889 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.3 = standard elbow long radius 90
note we are no longer reducing down to or up to pump size inlet or outlet, but we are still using a coupling so the coupling gets values get used.
for gravity head loss

0.18011 = gravity head loss in feet.

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.4005575 = 17.5 * 0.22889 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0595114 = 2.6 * 0.22889 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0595114 = 2.6 * 0.22889 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.1350451 = 5.9 * 0.22889 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.755337 = 33 * 0.22889 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.66 = 0.3 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.3
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.66 = 0.3 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.3
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.66 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.1729056 = 0.96 * 0.18011
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.1188726 = 0.66 * 0.18011
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.1188726 = 0.66 * 0.18011
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.1188726 = 0.66 * 0.18011
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.1729056 = 0.96 * 0.18011
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.4005575 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0595114 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0595114 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.1350451 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.755337 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.1729056 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.1188726 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.1188726 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.1188726 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.1729056 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.18011 = gravity head loss in feet
0.18011 = gravity head loss in feet
0.18011 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

4.6527214 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss we get

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 9.0428772 = 0.4005575 + 0.1729056 + 0.18011 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 4.301928 = 0.0595114 + 0.1188726 + 0.18011 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 4.301928 = 0.0595114 + 0.1188726 + 0.18011 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))
EXAMPLE 3

for this example the only thing that changes form EXAMPLE 1, is that we will be using...
2" pipe and fittings for pipe run 4 and pipe run 5
3" pipe and fittings for pipe run 1, pipe run 2, and pipe run 3
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.

we know we will be flowing 2000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for 3"
for dynamic major head loss.
0.03302 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.29 = standard elbow long radius 90
0.28 = reducer (( sudden contraction )) (( 3" pipe to 2" water pump inlet ))
0.31 = reducer (( sudden expansion )) (( 2" water pump outlet to 3" pipe ))
for gravity head loss

0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet.

for 2"

for dynamic major head loss.
0.22889 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.3 = standard elbow long radius 90
note we are no longer reducing down to or up to pump size inlet or outlet, but we are still using a coupling so the coupling gets values get used.
for graviy head loss

0.18011 = gravity head loss in feet.

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.057785 = 17.5 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0085852 = 2.6 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0085852 = 2.6 * 0.03302 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.1350451 = 5.9 * 0.22889 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.755337 = 33 * 0.22889 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.93 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.66 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.0330894 = 0.93 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0227712 = 0.64 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0227712 = 0.64 * 0.03558
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.1188726 = 0.66 * 0.18011
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.1729056 = 0.96 * 0.18011
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.057785 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0085852 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0085852 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.1350451 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.755337 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.0330894 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0227712 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0227712 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.1188726 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.1729056 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
0.03558 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

3.4424875 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss we get...

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 1.5174528 = 0.057785 + 0.0330894 + 0.03558 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 0.8032368 = 0.0085852 + 0.0227712 + 0.03558 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 0.8032368 = 0.0085852 + 0.0227712 + 0.03558 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))
EXAMPLE 4

for this this example, we will be changing 2000 gallons per hour to 3000 gallosn per hour from example 1
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.
we know we will be flowing 3000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
we know we will be using 3" for all pipes and fittings
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for dynamic major head loss.
0.06769 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss. 0.03 = coupling

0.29 = standard elbow long radius 90
0.28 = reducer (( sudden contraction )) (( 3" pipe to 2" water pump inlet ))
0.31 = reducer (( sudden expansion )) (( 2" water pump outlet to 3" pipe ))
for gravity head loss

0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet.

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.1184575 = 17.5 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0175994 = 2.6 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0175994 = 2.6 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.0399371 = 5.9 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.223377 = 33 * 0.06769 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.93 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.89 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.28
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 1.21 = 0.31 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.0744465 = 0.93 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.051232 = 0.64 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.051232 = 0.64 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.0712445 = 0.89 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.0968605 = 1.21 * 0.08005
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.1184575 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0175994 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0175994 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.0399371 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.223377 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.0744465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.051232 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.051232 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.0712445 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.0968605 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

3.0021359 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss we get...

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 3.275448 = 0.1184575 + 0.0744465 + 0.08005 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 1.7865768 = 0.0175994 + 0.051232 + 0.08005 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 1.7865768 = 0.0175994 + 0.051232 + 0.08005 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))
EXAMPLE 5

for this this example,
we will be changing 2000 gallons per hour to 3000 gallosn per hour from example 1
along with using 2" instead of 3" for all pipe runs.
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.

we know we will be flowing 3000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
we know we will be using 2 " for all pipes and fittings
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for dynamic major head loss.
0.47169 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.30 = standard elbow long radius 90
note we are no longer reducing down to or up to pump size inlet or outlet, but we are still using a coupling so the coupling gets values get used.
for gravity head loss

0.40525 = gravity head loss in feet.

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.8254575 = 17.5 * 0.47169 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.1226394 = 2.6 * 0.47169 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.1226394 = 2.6 * 0.47169 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.2782971 = 5.9 * 0.47169 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 1.556577 = 33 * 0.47169 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.66 = 0.3 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.3
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.66 = 0.3 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.3
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.66 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.38904 = 0.96 * 0.40525
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.267465 = 0.66 * 0.40525
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.267465 = 0.66 * 0.40525
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.267465 = 0.66 * 0.40525
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.38904 = 0.96 * 0.40525
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.8254575 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.1226394 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.1226394 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.2782971 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
1.556577 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.38904 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.267465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.267465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.267465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.38904 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.40525 = gravity head loss in feet
0.40525 = gravity head loss in feet
0.40525 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

7.7018354 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss we get...

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 19.43697 = 0.8254575 + 0.38904 + 0.40525 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 9.5442528 = 0.1226394 + 0.267465 + 0.40525 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 9.5442528 = 0.1226394 + 0.267465 + 0.40525 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))
EXAMPLE 6

for this example the only thing that changes form EXAMPLE 1, is that we will be using...
2" pipe and fittings for pipe run 4 and pipe run 5
3" pipe and fittings for pipe run 1, pipe run 2, and pipe run 3
3000 gallons per instead of 2000 gallons per hour. for a 30 minute turn over rate.
everything else is same as example 1.
to make it simplier lets pull some data from charts first.

we know we will be flowing 2000 gallons per hour through all pipes, fittings and filters.
with that we can pull data from charts. ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=847577&postcount=5) )to goto charts
for 3"
for dynamic major head loss.
0.06769 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.29 = standard elbow long radius 90
for gravity head loss

0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet

for 2"

for dynamic major head loss.
0.47169 = dynamic major head loss per 10 feet length of straight pipe
for dynamic minor head loss.

0.03 = coupling
0.30 = standard elbow long radius 90
note we are no longer reducing down to or up to pump size inlet or outlet, but we are still using a coupling so the coupling gets values get used.
for gravity head loss

0.40525 = gravity head loss in feet

so with above data from charts, and using the diagram above, lets figure out all the dynamic head losses

total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 1 = 17.5 = 0.5 + 10 + 3 + 4
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 2 = 2.6 = 0.5 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.5
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 3 = 2.6 = 0.3 + 0.3 + 1 + 0.3 + 0.7
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 4 = 5.9 = 0.4 + 2 + 1.5 + 2
total length of pipe in feet for pipe run 5 = 33 = 4 + 7 + 20 + 2
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.1184575 = 17.5 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.0175994 = 2.6 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.0175994 = 2.6 * 0.06769 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.2782971 = 5.9 * 0.47169 / 10
dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 1.556577 = 33 * 0.47169 / 10
total K valuve for pipe run 1 = 0.93 = 0.03 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.29 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 2 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 3 = 0.64 = 0.29 + 0.03 + 0.03 + 0.29
total K valuve for pipe run 4 = 0.66 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
total K valuve for pipe run 5 = 0.96 = 0.03 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.03
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1 = 0.0744465 = 0.93 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2 = 0.051232 = 0.64 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3 = 0.051232 = 0.64 * 0.08005
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4 = 0.267465 = 0.66 * 0.40525
dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5 = 0.38904 = 0.96 * 0.40525
and now lets create a list of all the head losses.

0.1184575 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.0175994 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.0175994 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.2782971 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 4
1.556577 = dynamic major head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.0744465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 1
0.051232 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 2
0.051232 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 3
0.267465 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 4
0.38904 = dynamic minor head loss in feet for pipe run 5
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
0.08005 = gravity head loss in feet
2 = static head in feet
adding up all the head losses we get

5.0620959 = total head loss in feet
thats all there is to it.
for draw down head loss

draw down head loss in inches between pond and filter 1 = 3.275448 = 0.1184575 + 0.0744465 + 0.08005 * 12
((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 1 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 1 and filter 2 = 1.7865768 = 0.0175994 + 0.051232 + 0.08005 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 2 in feet ))
draw down head loss in inches between filter 2 and filter 3 = 1.7865768 = 0.0175994 + 0.051232 + 0.08005 * 12

((note using dynamic head losses from pipe run 3 in feet ))

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:14 AM
this diagram and set of examples. brings up a hole new thing, and that is dealing with a manifold or rather Tee fittings and valve fittings.
for the simple diagram. we most likely want even flow from all TPR's to maintain our water currents in symetery.
simply easy when doing math
but for other different shaped ponds. we may want 1/3 of the flow going to 1 TPR and the other 2/3's of the flow going to the rest of the TPRs.

same as above, but a little more work
but yet other setups, we don't care how much flow we get per TPR, just as long as we get the lowest possible head loss.

lots and lots of math.

EXAMPLE 7

pond is 2,000 gallons
pump has 2" inlet and a 2" outlet
we are going to shoot for a 1 hour turn over rate
we want even flow to all 4 TPR's (tringental point returns)
all pipe runs = 3" piping and fittings
EXAMPLE 8

pipe runs 8,10,13, and 15 = 2"
all other pipe runs = 3"
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 9

all pipe runs = 2"
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 10

pipe runs 8,10,13, and 15 = 1"
all other pipe runs = 2"
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 11

shooting for 30 minute turn over rate.
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 12

shooting for 30 minute turn over rate.
pipe runs 8,10,13, and 15 = 2"
all other pipe runs = 3"
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 13

shooting for 30 minute turn over rate.
all pipe runs = 2"
everything else is same as example 7
EXAMPLE 14

shooting for 30 minute turn over rate.
pipe runs 8,10,13, and 15 = 1"
all other pipe runs = 2"
everything else is same as example 7http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/Tee.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2legend.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2views.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2a.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2b.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2c.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2d.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2e.gif
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o29/boggen1979/totalloss2b/totalossn2f.gif







REDO count number 12 *ughs* one of these times, i will get it nearly corrected.

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:17 AM
a

Leekinneykoi
01-03-2007, 08:31 AM
Thank you Boggen.:willdo: :cool: :clap:

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:33 AM
a

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:34 AM
a

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:42 AM
a

boggen
01-03-2007, 08:45 AM
a

boggen
01-03-2007, 09:03 AM
a

Pond,James_Pond
01-03-2007, 09:40 AM
Thanks Mr. Boggon,

Your diagrams and explanations are absolutely the best for us newbie learner types. You spend a great deal of time with your drawings and custom solutions for anyone that asks.

Thanks from all us newbies,
steve

boggen
01-03-2007, 09:58 AM
sizing pipes and fittings (( aka estimating before ya start building and install your filters and plumbing. ))

VELOCITY

velocity is a measure of length per time. example miles per hour. for us average folks. we will be intrested in velocity in feet per second.
just like driving a car, you have miniumn and maxiumn speed limits. we have them in plumbing.
max limit velocity = 5 feet per second
for the average folks, we use lots of plastic piping and tubing when hooking up everything in our ponds and filters. plastic pipe has a speed limit of 5 feet per second. the reason behind the 5 feet per second is the water hammer effect.
basicly when a pump suddenly turns on or you open and close a value real quick. water has to either stop or start movign all of a sudden. examples would be slamming on the brakes in your car causing the car to come to a complete abrubt stop. another example could be, from a dead stop, hitting the gas peddle to leave some tread marks on the road. in either case plastic just doesn't like taking alot of force from those sudden stops and starts. and by keeping the speed limit if you will below 5 feet per second. you play it safe.
also normally when you go above a velocity of 5 feet per second. your dynamic head loss normally goes up exteremely high. so high that it normally not worth using that small of a pipe. and best to use a bigger size pipe.
miniumn speed limit in pipes and fittings varies

gravity flow pipe runs
we normally want to keep it above atleast 1 feet per second. to keep fish poo, and other debrie in the water from settling within the pipe.
but as debrie size get larger and heavier, a faster velocity needs to be maintained to keep stuff from sticking within a pipe.
many times. when you use gravity flow pipe runs. more so the pipe run between bottom drains and the first gravity flow filters. folks are required to do a flushing of that pipe run. during filter cleaning.
flushing meaning.
i close a valve going to the bottom drain.
drain that first gravity flow filter all the way.
open the valve to bottom drain real quick.
let water rush into the filter for a few moments. (( can't give ya a time frame it depends ))
then shut valve
drain filter again.
then open valve and continue on with normal operation of filters.
because gravity flow pipe sizes normally require a much bigger pipe size, to deal with draw down in filters. we can't use smaller size pipes to get a higher velocity to keep stuff from settling within the pipes. that above mention flushing. does this for us. normaly the flushing creating a very high velocity that will remove most items from a pipe.
pressurized flows pipe runs

its nice to stay above 2 feet if perhaps 3 feet per second being better. but staying below 5 feet per second.
at above velocities, normally all the pipe work is kept clean of debrie.
due to most pumps can handle a little extra head and not make a big difference in flow they produce. we normally opt for that higher velocity to keep our plumbing clean and running good.
general rule of thumb flow rates, for gravity flow pipe runs.

(( note to myself and others make a big deal of general rules in that they can be a bad doing))
the general rule of thumb. is based on velocities, lengths of pipe, fittings, that a average folk will most likely see in there pipe run. again the below are based on some varying assumptions that changes from person to person. but generally stay to the same numbers noted below.
3600 gallons per hour for 4" pipe with a 1 inch draw down head
2000 gallons per hour for 3" pipe with a 1 inch draw down head
700 gallons per hour for a 2" pipe with a 1 inch draw down headESTIMATING

go outside, get a garden hose or perhaps spray paint that is safe to spray on the grass (( pick up at most local hardware stores )) and start painting were ya think you will plan to run pipes and were fittings will be, and were valves and other inlets and outlets will be.
when ya get done. grab a notebook, pencel, tape measure and have some fun. draw a little sketch in the notebook if it helps figure out things. doesn't have to be anything fantasic. as long as you understand it. it doesn't matter what other think. ((i don't want show ya / tell ya how many times i have messed up diagrams i have made. *gulps some thinking about it*))
all we are intrested in is the pipe runs. and what length of straight pipe you have in a given pipe run and amount of each type of fittings. nothing special. just a good honest guess is good enough. to get a rough idea for figuring out head losses and system curves and velocities.

boggen
01-03-2007, 10:01 AM
nothing but equations / formulas / and lots and lots of math

general post, to hold varying equations.

note i do not use standard ordinary scientific standards of labling. i just use lamen term variable labels and names.

area formulas.
square = length * length
rectangle = length * width
circle = radius * radius * pie
circle = diameter * diameter * pie / 4
oval = short radius * long radius * pie
ellispe = short radius * long radius * pie
parralllelogram = base * height
trapezoid = height / 2 * ( base A + base B )
right triangle = width * height / 2


volumn formulas
pyramid = area of base * height * ( 1 / 3 )
cone = radius * radius * pie * ( 1 / 3 )
sphere = radius * radius * radius * pie * ( 4 / 3 )
half of a sphere = radius * radius * radius * pie * ( 4 / 3 ) / 2
cube = length * width * height
prisim = area of triangle * height
seem pertaint enough. estimate pond volumn, by adding...
salt (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33739) << click to goto thread
give thx to carolinagirl
another description of using salt (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48735) << click to goto thread

give thx to roddy conrad
baking soda (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48735) << click to goto thread

give thx to roddy conrad

bottom drain gap height

to set gap height for dome
gap height = radius of pipe connected to drain* radius of pipe connected to drain / diameter of dome
above formula works for most manufactor drains, diy drains or domes on the other hand may be different story.
ELEVATION DIFFERENCE head loss in feet

ELE = ( ( CFS * CFS ) / ( AF * AF ) ) ) / ( 2 * G)
ELE = elevation difference head in feet.
GPH = gallons per hour
CFS = cubic feet per second = GPH / ( 7.48 * 60 * 60 )
AF = area of a circle in feet = ( diameter in inches * diameter in inches * PIE ) / 576
PIE = 3.14
G = 32.174 in feet per second squared = acceleration of gravity
dynamic major head loss equations (( for stragiht length of pipe ))

darcy weisbach equations using swaing jain friction factor equation.
darcy weisbach head loss equation in feet = ( FF * ( LEN / DIA ) * ( ( VEL^2 ) / (2 * 32.174 ) ) )
FF = swain jain friction factor equation = 0.25/(LOG(( COE / DIA /3.7)+ (5.74/ REN^0.9))^2)
REN = reynolds number" = VEL * DIA / KEN
KEN = kinematic viscosity in feet squard per second = 0.0000121
COE = darcy weisbach roughness coefficent = 0.000005
LEN = length of straight pipe in feet = 10 feet
DIA = inside pipe diameter in feet
VEL = velocity in feet per second
hazen and williams equation

( fill in later )
mannings equation

( fill in later )

DYNAMIC MINOR HEAD LOSS

dynamic head loss in feet = K * VEL * VEL / ( 2 * G )
K = K value of fittings, or K coefficent value of fittings or K coefficent factor of fittings.
VEL = velocity in feet per second
G = 32.174 in feet per second squared = acceleration of gravity
VELOCITY

velocity in feet per second = CFS / AF
GPH = gallons per hour
CFS = cubic feet per second = GPH / ( 7.48 * 60 * 60 )
DIA = inside diameter of pipe in inches
AF = area of a circle in feet = ( DIA * DIA * PIE ) / 576
weight of a fish, by length of fish

LEN = length of fish in inches
LBS = LEN * LEN * LEN / 1650
LBS * 1.5 = weight for a fat fish in pounds
LBS = average weight of fish in pounds
LBS * 0.5 = weight for a skinny fish fish in pounds
equation works for koi. other types of fish such as catfish, or goldfish. equation is off.

boggen
01-04-2007, 01:36 AM
nominal pipe size vs actual inside diameter of pipe

most folks know pipe sizes by there nominal pipe size. aka 1.5", 1", 2", 3", 4" etc... but in reality pipe sizes are actually completely different.

most pipe sizes have a fixed set outside diameter, but the inside diameter changes based on schedule, iron pipe size or stainless steal scheducle.

below are tables. can be used to obtain the more accurate inside diameter. to use in equations, formulas, and calculations, for figureing head losses.

boggen
01-04-2007, 07:51 PM
bottom drain gap height diagrams and chart to set gap height


The below diagram explains how I determined the proper height for setting my bottom drain covers. While I am using the Koi Village bottom drain, which ought to be set at around half an inch, you can use the below equation for whatever drain and pipe you are using. Notice that I used the sump (bowl) diameter and not the outer rim diameter. On the Koi Village bottom drain, the sump diameter determines where the restriction will be since the cover is flat. If your cover is domed, then the restriction might not be at the sump, but at the edge of the dome, so use the dome diameter.

- Wayne, won't have to worry about installing the covers until next spring.
Attached Images


see ronin-koi oringal post by clicking here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=505008&postcount=39)

gap height = pipe radius * pipe radius / dome diameter
gap height = pipe diameter * pipe diameter / ( dome diameter * 4 )

FIRST PICTURE, is by ronin-koi, to obtain bottom drain gap hieght for the dome.

SECOND PICTURE. is just a little graph, to determind what gap height you should set the dome to.

simply, look up the bottom drain diameter across the bottom portion of chart.
then lookup to what diameter of pipe is connected to drain.
then look to the left to determind gap height.if you follow ronin-koi example, in his picture, 8.5 dome diameter should show close to 1/2" gap height on chart.

boggen
01-04-2007, 09:52 PM
ronin-koi 3d diagram showing bottom drain, air diffuser on bottom drain dome, and TPR's ( trigental point returns )
click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46535) to see ronin-koi oringal post


I thought it would be helpful for those new to pond construction if I posted an explanation of some common koi pond features that many forum veterans take for granted. Quite often, I read posts by members that indicate some confusion on the operation of some essential components of a koi pond, and the benefits that they offer in keeping the pond functioning effectively. I also see a lot of posts by people who question the need for some of these elements, especially bottom drains and aerators (air diffusers), primarily because of the added difficulty in installing them.



Hopefully, the below illustration will help to shed some light on how these components can create efficient flow dynamics to keep our koi ponds clean. Maybe as newer members design their new ponds, or ponder the next re-do, they will consider adding these features onto their system. If you have any questions, or have any other comments, feel free to post.



- Wayne, thinks of the pond system as a large toilet bowl, that effectively moves all debris OUT of the pond, and into the filters.

boggen
01-04-2007, 10:05 PM
types of drains / bottom drains / bottom drains with air diffusers

fine print
below diagrams, are a bad attempt by myself to get idea across of differing drains. i ask that ya don't take them as simple fact. but only take as getting idea across.

suggest that you think 3D when looking at diagrams. in that i refer to the 3d digram of bottom drain with air diffser on dome and TPRS. by ronin-koi (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848962&postcount=20)

DESCRIPTION OF DIAGRAMS / PICTURES

legend
light blue = water in pond
brown = debrie, fish poo, leaves, etc... collecting in pond.
red = drains
dark blue = my attempt to show water currents created.
white = air bubbles created by air diffuser on top of bottom drain dome.
note E4 and G4 i used pink and red to show tpr currents. and blue for currents created by drain and air diffuser
no drain

A1 clean pond
A2 pond not been cleaned for a some given amount of time. could be a couple days to a couple months pending on many factors
clean out drain. just used durning cleaning

B1 clean out drain installed on pond. to make cleaning easier
B2 clean out drain open (( aka pond getting cleaned ))
B3 clean pond
clean out drain hooked into filteration system. so water runs 24 / 7 through drain.

C1 just showing clean out drain
C2 showing currents
C3 showing TPR's
C4 showing currents
BD = bottom drain = clean out drain with dome over top of it. dome can also be called anti - vortex lid

D1 just showing clean out drain
D2 showing currents
D3 showing TPR's
D4 showing currents
BD with air diffuser monted to top of dome

E1 just showing clean out drain
E2 showing currents
E3 showing TPR's
E4 showing currents
Retro drain = dome with pipe coming out the top of it. example of look could be like a vacumn attachment.

F1 just showing clean out drain
F2 showing currents
F3 showing TPR's
F4 showing currents
retro drain with air diffuser mounted on top of it.

G1 just showing clean out drain
G2 showing currents
G3 showing TPR's
G4 showing currents
H1 = blown up view of a standard bottom drain
H2 = blown up view of a retro bottom drain
H3 = top view showing currents created by TPR's.
attempt to get idea across of thinking 3D, and currents created within pond.

boggen
01-04-2007, 11:05 PM
guilt trip, WHY you want a bottom drain hooked into your filteration system.

going to start off with. cleaning a pond that has no drains.
normally ponds with no drains are let go for abit to long of time. and a muck layer builds up on the bottom of the pond. this muck layer is bad news. think of living in a toliet that never gets flush. this muck layer can build up some nasty bad bacteria, virius, parasites, bad gasses, and other misc things. that could be harmfull to you. and deadly to the fish.
because of the muck layer having those baddies in it. you should not disturb it while fish and plants are still within the water. this means seting up a temprary pond normally and putting all fish and plants into the temprary pond.
but there is a kicker, and i am guilty of this. when ya go to catch the fish, i bet ya, you will end up nicking one and causing some sort of damage to it.
also count amount of stress are put in, in trying to catch them. to a fish, we are some person that just broke into there house, that plans to tie them up and kill them.
hey, one more thing to add to list of putting fish through stress. and that is making sure the temporary pond water stays in correct water parameters when you put fish into it. and the water parameters stay good while the fish are in the temprory pond.
so ya finally got the fish and plants out of the pond. now it normally time to drain rest of water out of pond, and start the lovely smell fest of work. using a bucket and shovel to remove any rocks and the muck layer in the bottom of the pond. pending on size of pond. this could take any were to a couple hours to a few days.
so once ya get done cleaning the pond, its time to fill the pond back up with water. but you can't just add the fish yet. ya gotta get those water parameters in good standing condition. which may mean adding de-chlorine, or raising / lower ph. or other general water parameters.
once ya get the water in pond set. its time now to re catch fish. oh boy. time to nick another fish with a net :/ and put fish through more fish moving them from temprary pond back to main pond.
hey ya almsot done. NOT! ya put away temprary pond, and everything else. but there is one critical thing that may happen. because there was prolly a pretty heavy cleaning of the pond and pond filters. you prolly have killed your good bacteria living in your bio filter. in which case, ya going to have to deal with new pond syndrome. in that dealing with amonia, nitrites, nitrates cycling of your bio filter. which could take any were from a couple weeks to a few months.
but but but... in a few months its already time to re-clean the entire pond again, and it all repeats :/
i remind you fish living in there own toliet bowl.
with bottom drains hooked into filteration system.

well most of us here have went through the hard way of learning with doing above. needless to say, once we got a bottom drain and hooked it into filteration, we have not went back. to us a bottom drain and a good filteration is like house plumbing and being able to flush a toliet after we go to the bathroom.
normally a good filteration system and pond setup. means, never draining the pond of water, never having to catch a fish, never breaking out a shop vac or pond vac. to clean the actual pond itself.
NOTE: i say never. but there is always that little thing that will be required to be cleaned up in the pond. but the amount of time and length of time doing that is almost NIL compared to a pond with no drain hooked up into the filteration system.
rember though. simply moving all the stuff that would end up in a bottom of a pond with no drains has to go some were when ya start removing the muck from the pond using drains the muck and debriee has to go some place. and the place were debrie and muck will end up will be your filters. normally filters are much much easier to clean.
filters are normally smaller, and pending on how filters are built and the media within the filters. you can normally flush the muck out a drain in a filter. or lift the media up and out of the filter for cleaning. which means never having to drain the pond itself to remove the debrie and muck.
below pictures.

first is from leekinnykoi, the single picture doesn't do his thread "WHY have a Bottom Drain and Skimmer?? (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39858)" justice, take a look at his thread and other pictures for some good reading and viewing. by clicking here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39858)
Picture from JanetMermaid: Janet noted that she took the picture of a client's pond when they were renovating it. The pond was originally installed by another pond builder who is no longer in business. The original builder, an Aquascape Design certified installer, included approximately 1' of gravel in the bottom of the pond.
picture from NatureCalls. kinda makes ya wonder exactly what ya been feeding the fish. yumm.
another picture from NatureCalls, awe draining of a pond and removing rock. abit scary indeed. and just think atleast 2 times a year atleast cleaning the rock like that. just how many parasites, virus, bacterias are in that fish poo, leaves, eaten food, bugs, mess of a rock and muck mixture?

boggen
01-04-2007, 11:28 PM
experments that can help you visualize having a bottom drain in your pond, that is hooked up into your filteration system.

i would love to see pictures of you or anyone else doing one of these experiments. and i am sure many others would to.
an experment for drains
start off with a kitchen sink.
how many times have you wiped down side of the sink after doing dishes?
how many times have you scrubed out the bottom of the sink?
how many times have you cleaned out the little drain / strainer plug for the sink?
*rubs chin* do you want a sink in your home that doesn't have a drain?
TPRs ( trigental point returns ) experiment, and partially about drains.

bath tub, ketchup, garden hose, spray nozel for garden hose
for this expirment all i ask is that you don't actully hurt yourself in such a way. that folks cant tell from being hurt and the ketchup.
ya prolly going to want a few big size ketchup bottles for this experment. you may also want some food coloring, other types of thick sauces, such as musturd, salad dressings, bbq sauce, etc... could work.
be carefull some food coloring / food products may stain bath tub.
note being that this experment deals with a bath tub. food products are use. if you used leaves, dirt, sand, rocks and other msic things, i could see the posts now of you plugging up your bath tub drain. and food products are normally easy washing up. aka just like washing down a sink after doing dishes. simply and easy.
would strongly suggest having a simply basic on / off valve on end of garden hose. in that i do not mean a spray nozzle for a on / off valve.
to start the experment off, put a good layer of ketchup over the bottom of the bath tub and up the sides.

take your garden hose with no spray nozel. and try to move the ketchup around the tub. as if moving it to the drain.
make sure you try just useing the water out of the garden hose. then also try hooking up a spray nozzle and trying moving the ketch up around.
once ya got above out of your system. and a idea of how the ketchup is going to behave when trying to move it around. its time for the good old fun to begin!

plug up the drain of the bath tub and fill the tub up 1/2 way with water.
resmere / apply ketch to the bottom and sides of the bath tub.
again repeat using just the garden hose end with no spray nozzle. then again with the spray nozzle.
i do want you to pay extra special time with no spray nozzle. and playing arorund trying to move ketchup around your bathtub.
if ya haven't figured it out, the goal of this experment, is to show you how TPR's behave with bottom drains.
TPR's are not jets, they are not some super duper spray nozzle. they are simply the end of the garden hose.
with that. you may want to repeat the expirment filling the tub half way full of water, and postion the garden hose in a fixed postion. then add food coloring and ketchup at different spots within the bath tub. to see the water currents that may be created by a tpr in a pond.
expriment for TPR currents

the goal of experiment is to see the spirling effect of water.
5 gallon bucket, rock, dirt, leaves, sand, garden hose with and without a spray nozzle
fill up 5 gallon bucket with water.
take the garden hose end and place it under water in such a way. that the water coming out of the garden hose. to caue the water to spin within the 5 gallon bucket.
if you use a spray nozzle on end of garden hose, you could prolly get the water spinning so fast, that it looks like a whirl pool forming.
for this experment we are more intrested without using a spray nozzle.
once ya got the end of the garden hose postion, take a hand full of sand, rock, leaves, or what not. and toss into the 5 gallon bucket at different spots.
you should notice things spinning inwards towards the center and some things spinning outwards towards the edges of the 5 gallon bucket.
thats all there is to this experment.
suggest goofing around and trying different things. be a big kid in a sense and get yourself occupuid with the simplist of things.
glass sheet waterfalls vs splashing waterfalls.

5 gallon bucket, a garden hose, and spray nozzle for the garden hose.
fill 5 gallon bucket up with water.
set spray nozzle to jet
point and spray downwards into the 5 gallon bucket.
place your hand down under the stream of water, inside the bucket. feal the water and the water currents created by the jet of stream.
this filling is your water currents that would be created by a glass sheet waterfall in idea.
turn the spray nozzle to spray or shower
point and spray downwards into the 5 gallon bucket.
place your hand under water inside the 5 gallon bucket, and try to find were the water currents are.
you should find the water currents are only created near the top portion of the water.

boggen
01-05-2007, 12:02 AM
TPR's, CYLINDER shape pond.

the goal of below info and diagrams. is give idea of were to place tprs and what they can do to help keep the pond itself clean of muck and debrie, and fish poo, and etc...

everyone pond is different, and because of that, i ask that you apply the info. just don't take it on blind thought.


no drains, no TPR's, all the debris just collects in bottom of the pond
simple a bottom drain. with a pond size bigger than what the bottom drain can suck into it.
air diffuser on top of the bottom drain.
single TPR. note it throughs symetry of the water currents in the pond way off
2 TPR's symtrey is no achived.
3 TPR's note they are evenly spaced around the side of the pond in the top view
same thing again symetry is matained
even more TPR's are added yet symetry is kept
what happens when you point TPR's directly to the drain. nothing gets cleaned.


round ponds are prolly the easist pond shapes in dealing with keeping the pond clean. this is mainly due to there are no corners that can trap debree.


if the pond is small enough were a bottom drain can reach out to the outer edges. then no tpr's could be perfectly fine.
as the size diameter of the pond gets bigger. air diffusers and TPR's can get used to help maintain and keep the bottom of the pond clean.
would atleast go with TWO TPR's this provides your semtry within the cylinder shape pond. in speaking water currents.making sure how ever many TPR's you add they are equally spaced around the side of a circle shape pond.
the goal of the side views in pictures 5 through 8. with the debree in the corners. is an attempt to show that you might have some debree build up under the TPR's. i said might, simply adding tpr's just to get debree from not collecting under the TPR's, can be a very bad thing. reason being, you are limited by the amount of water that is coming from the filteration system. plus cost of price of plumbing.

boggen
01-05-2007, 12:23 AM
TPR's, SQUARE shape pond.

the goal of below info and diagrams. is give idea of were to place tprs and what they can do to help keep the pond itself clean of muck and debrie, and fish poo, and etc...

everyone pond is different, and because of that, i ask that you apply the info. just don't take it on blind thought.

no drains, no TPR's, all the debris just collects in bottom of the pond
simple a bottom drain. with a pond size bigger than what the bottom drain can suck into it.
air diffuser on top of the bottom drain.
single TPR. note it throughs symetry of the water currents in the pond way off
2 TPR's symtrey is not completely achived. 2 corners have more debrie build up than other 2 corners.
4 TPR's symtry is achived
1 tpr, coming out the side of pond with a 90 inside the pond.
this can be a bad thing. with stuff sticking into pond. mainly due to fish can bumb into it and harm themselves. if you have ever witness fish spawning, you would truely understand how much the males shove the female around. (( think a bunch of 5 year old kids that were all given lots and lots of surgar and caffine ))
2 tprs, coming out pond side with a 90's inside pond. symetry not completey achived.
4 tprs, coming out pond side with a 90's inside pond. symetry achived
TPR's pointed directly at drain. aka no debrie is removed from pond.square ponds or rather trap crap corner ponds. are abit of a pain to deal with. mainly due to the corners will love to collect debrie and muck. its just something of matter of life when dealing with sharp corners.

the thought behind diagrams 4 - 6, is to show a safe way to add tprs to a pond, and keep fish from banging into them.
the thought behind diagrams 7 - 9, is to show a way of point tprs into corners to clean them out.
sadly, they require plumbing inside the pond. my personal preference is i don't like to see plumbing inside a pond. than and fish can harm themselves on stuff inside a pond.
the postioning of tprs is not a great use of tprs. granted they may clean the corner, but you loose alot of effective-ness for the rest of the pond bottom in keeping it clean of debriee and muck.

boggen
01-05-2007, 12:58 AM
depth placement of TPRs

NOTE: i am not going into much detail of, educators, jets, mid water returns, mid water picks up. in this post. this is to simply get idea of were TPRs are placed.

NOTE: the other diagrams from TPR CIRCLE (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849032&postcount=24) and TPR SQUARE (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849042&postcount=26) posts are ment more of a placement of TPRs around the pond. this post is more ment for placement of depth of tprs. again think in 3D, not like the 2D diagrams of mine. for a refresher see ronin-koi 3d diagram (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showpost.php?p=848962&postcount=20)

boggen
01-05-2007, 05:32 AM
TPR's OVAL shape pond.

the goal of below info and diagrams. is give idea of were to place tprs and what they can do to help keep the pond itself clean of muck and debrie, and fish poo, and etc...

everyone pond is different, and because of that, i ask that you apply the info. just don't take it on blind thought.


no drains
a single bottom drain
a single bottom drain with air diffuser on top of dome.
single tpr.
2 tprs part way semtry but still off
4 tprs, really trying to pull that symetry but just not there, do the pond shape being ovalish, but we almost have good perfect symetry.
2 bottom drains
2 bottom drains with air diffusers on top of domes.
2 tprs 2 drains. na, we just making one big circle of water around the edges.
4 tprs 2 drains, na still creating on big circlure motion around the pond.
3 tprs, 2 drains, i think we have it goerge,
5 tprs, 2 drains, i think the pond get abit bigger than simple 2 drains and 3 tprs could cover, so we tossed in a couple more tprs. not a big fan though we got 2 tprs with 90's on them, inside the pond, that fish can bump into. that be no good.ovals are abit of a pain, main reason being is. the long length vs width a oval has.

if the pond was more closer to a roundish shape. ((example width is almost equals the length )) a single drain may be just right for you.
a 2 drain setups work good for short width, long length oval shape ponds. ((example length = 2 times width of the oval shape pond ))

boggen
01-05-2007, 07:18 AM
TPR's RECTANGLE shape pond.

the goal of below info and diagrams. is give idea of were to place tprs and what they can do to help keep the pond itself clean of muck and debrie, and fish poo, and etc...

everyone pond is different, and because of that, i ask that you apply the info. just don't take it on blind thought.

skipping the general what is what. compared to ( circle, square, oval shape ponds for tprs ). just to many diagrams. repeating the same thing over.
digrams #1-#3, just not worth a single bottom drain for a rectangle shape. a square shape sure, but not rectanglar.
diagrams #4 -#6, basic showing of drains nothing new. (( see circle, square, oval for more explanation ))
diagrams #7 - #9, trying to get a complete single circling motion around pond just doesn't happen.
digram #10, alot of folks have chosen this setup and seem to like it. they do not a little debrie as noted in diagram, but for what they have, they are happy.
diagram #11, not really the best, you loose symetery and throughs currents off. (( diagram really doesn't show it, my bad ))
diagram #12, this setup is abit overkill over diagram #10, but if ya look at it, each area around the drain is being treated as if it was a square pond around that drain.
diagrams #13 and #14, basic diagram showing draings nothing new
diagrams #15, mimics #10, but due to pond was even longer than #10, we added another drain.
diagram #16, mimics #12, but just another drain.
diagrams #17 - #20, just showing another drain. this is an attempt to show expanding a length of a pond.i do remind ya, just like a square has crap trap corners, a rectangle also has crap trap corners. just part of life, when dealing with sharp corners.

boggen
01-05-2007, 08:17 AM
recap of basic 4 tpr diagrams / info on applying the basics to more complex shapes


the purpose of TPR's is to send not a fast sharp jet of water, but a constant stream of water against the outside edges of the pond bottom.
when tpr's and bottom drains are setup. the water currents end up creating a spiraling motion. hence, the diagrams, i have stated na, ya, good setup, etc... normally these setups are the ones with good spirling of water current. which normally means syemetry within the pond shape, drains and tprs.
normally the basic 4 shapes can be applied to a little more complex shapes. in that folks may simply be doing good pond building. and are rounding the corners. to remove the trap crap corners found in square and rectanglish shape ponds.
on the more complex shapes, shuch as kidney shapes, and peanut shapes. normally these 2 shapes, take rounding out corners to remove crap trap corners abit futher. and keeping the entire outside shape of the pond all curving. in some cases. these more complex shapes may work better than one of the 4 basic shapes in setting up drains and tprs.
the below diagram, is to re-enforce. the spiraling water current you want with tpr and drain setups.

boggen
01-05-2007, 08:31 AM
misc drain and tpr placement diagrams.

below, is just a group of random diagrams drawn up.
some may show...
different shape ponds.
different tpr setups.
different drain setups.
i have attempted to label bottom left hand corner of below diagrams for some sort of reference #.

boggen
01-05-2007, 08:51 AM
waterfalls, understanding / building / uses

glass sheet waterfalls
in order to get a glass sheet of water, going over a waterfall.
diagram #2, #3, #6, #10, #12
and the waterfall weir edge have a nice clean, sharp, and straight edge.
anything else will resuilt in driping of water, splashing of water. or a sound that will most likely be irrirtating. when you are shooting for a relaxing sound / relaxing enviroment.
glass sheet waterfalls by the most part, provide the most airation and gas exchange for a pond.
not all the airation and gas exchange happens directly in the waterfall. but by the water currents created by a glass sheet waterfall.
the water coming from a glass sheet waterfall will penetrate a pond water surface. in such a way. that the water coming from the waterfall will go deep into the pond.
because of the water moving deep into the pond a water current is created. this water current causes old stale water on a bottom of a pond to move up towards the surface of the pond.
as the old stale water reachs the pond water surface, airation and gas exchange is done.
and this is were a glass sheet waterfall shines in providng more airation and gas exchange. vs a splashing waterfall.
splashing waterfall

forget about nigra falls, or rapids in a river. ya never going to achive the sound effects of a roaring sound or looks. if you are a millionare then perhap you have a chance.
the reason being it takes lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of water and lots of splashing to create the sound effect of roaring and looks. and the cost of buying water pumps, and then cost of running those water pumps, to provide the amount of water needed. is hhmm abit frighting $ figure.
your splashing waterfalls. are going to provide a high pitch sounds. and dripping sounds. which normally create a irritating sound that is not good for a relaxing enviroment such as folks backyards.
think of the sound you get from your shower when you leave the door open and the shower running. do ya really want to be listening to like type of sounds in your back yard?
ay i am against splashing waterfalls. if ya haven't already figure it out. but due keep one thing in mind. your neighbors. ok ok some of you don't like your neighbors. but for yourself. they might be nice to look at, but the sound destory's it. and overall don't promate good airation and gas exchange for your pond and wet pets.
generaly waterfalls 1 to 2 feet above pond water surface level will satisfiy most folks wantings for sounds and looks.
below diagrams

diagrams 1 through 3
the goal of those 3 diagrams is to show difference ways to connect your plumbing to a waterfall weir.
#1 diagram. will create a small floam or fountain, see diagram #11 for another side view.
#2 diagram uses a basin. this basin causes the water coming from the pipe to even out before the water goes onto the waterfall weir. the leveling of the water gives you a good chance for a glass sheet of water going of the waterfall.
3# diagram, takes #2 diagram to another step. in that it turns the basin into a filter. i do remind ya, you will need to clean this filter. so please keep in mind when thinking of such of a contraption. some folks call #3 diagram a overflow waterfall filter, a skippy filter, or perhaps simply a waterfall filter.
diagrams 4 through 6

this is more about the angle of the weir.
going backwards...
#6 diagram sets the weir at a downward angle. doing this effectively causes the water flowing over the waterfall weir to gain speed and momentom, which in turn causes the water to shoot off and away from the waterfall weir. this gives you a good chance in create a glass sheet waterfall.
#5 diagram. setting the weir level. this will most likely cause water to travel back and underneath the weir. and as some of the water does this. the water will begin to drip down into the pond (( red )). this driping can become a irritating sound. think of the classical drip drip drip of a sink faucet in your home at night. for a glass sheet waterfall this can be undersable and at times the sounds from the drips can drown out the noise created by a glass sheet waterfall.
#4 diagram. setting the weir in an upward angle. ya asking for problems with looks and sounds.
diagrams 7 through 10

more for multi teired waterfalls. or rather stepping waterfalls.
#7 diagram is going to provide some splashing as water goes across the steps (( splashing = red in diagram ))
#8 diagram, again more splashing. but more splashing than #7 diagram.
#9 diagram. removes the splashing, but the trade off no splashing is the little basins per teir / step. this little basins will collect muck and debrie and will need to be cleaned out.
#10 diagram. will give you a good chance of glass sheet waterfall per teir / step of the waterfall. just rember that you will need to clean out those basins. due to they will collect and build up with debrie and muck.
diagrams 11 and 12

these 2 are more to show water flowing over a waterfall weir. from a front side view.
#11 diagram would go with #1 diagram. in creating a small little fountain / floam of water. but the primary reason for this drawing is to show the un-even-ness of water of the waterfall weir.
#12 diagram. goes with diagrams #2, #3, # 6, #10 if you want a glass sheet waterfall. note the difference between #11 diagram and #12 diagram. in that this diagram has a even level of water going over the entire weir of the waterfall.

boggen
01-05-2007, 08:58 AM
chart for waterfall weir sizing

not completely happy personally with below chart. it does give data that mimics other charts out there. and below chart would prolly be best used for stainless steal or a nice smooth plastic weirs.
hopefully someone will ring in at this thread ( click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49342)) or some other thread / post and give details of a formula that works for more rougher surfaces such as concrete, flag stone, etc...
the below chart was formed using...
GPH = ( ( ( 2 / 3 ) * WF * ( TF ^ ( 3 / 2 ) ) * SQRT ( 2 * 32.174 ) ) ) * 7.48 * 60 * 60
GPH = gallons per hour
WF = width of weir in feet
TF = thickness of waterfall in feet
equation obtained from... http://www.msubbu.com/ln/fm/Unit-III/WeirsNotches.htm
until till better formula is obtained.
take a look at this thread (( also same thread finding better formula )) click here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49342)to see thread
or / and do a search for....

WATERFALL WEIR CHART
on your favorate internet search engine, such as google, yahoo, etc... to obtain some charts / data that may work better for flag stones, concrete, rock, and other rough surface weirs.
most of the charts pretty much say the exact same thing, but they differ just slightly either a little more or a little less on gallons per hour. or 1/8 to 1/16th of an inch on thickness of water.
the better sites give 3 choices to choose from.

stainless steal or nice smooth plastic
a peice of flat rock, that has a weir width of 6 inches to 11 inches wide
a peice of flat rock, that has a weir width of 12 inches or greater.

boggen
01-06-2007, 10:18 AM
examples, links to waterfall builds, and other misc information.

for more pictures of waterfalls goto this thread
Please post your waterfall pics here, natural or man-made (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49341)
showing glass sheet waterfall
note the red color i pained on picture. this red is to repersent mold, meldew, etc... that will end up growing on the wall. due to moisture and water splashing up on the wall.
sadly there is not much out there for cleaners / detergents that are safe if got into pond water. meaning if you choose that light color bricking like seen in picture. ya may not be liking that discoloring of growth after some time. and with limited options. for cleaners. you may be looking for a new bricking or a face to put over the wall in a couple years.
the light color bricking is fine for pools, were chlorine and other anti fungus, anti bacteria, etc.. can be used. but for ponds with live fish that can easly die from cleaners and deterergents think twice.
note: i honestly have no clue were i got this picture. if anyone knows who it is, or if it is yours, please PM me, or post a reply or something. so i can update info on who it belongs to. and give credit to correct folk / folks.
picture from birdman, note a glass sheet waterfall, also notice the wet area behind the waterfall and the wet rocks. this is from the little splashing.

water will splash as far from the waterfall as the waterfall is high.
so if you have a 10 foot high waterfall. you could get splashing 10 feet away from the waterfall.
if your waerfall is only 2 feet above pond water surface level, then ya only going to get splashing 2 feet in every direction from the waterfall.
just to re-enforce the mold growth or discoloring of the pond wall. the wet area seen in pictures is the area ya should be concerned about with mold growth / discoloring, due to being wet all the time.
note birdman theme with more of dark colors to help blend in any discoloring or growth of algea, mold, etc... on the wall and sides that are near the waterfall. most likely guessing in a couple years with age-ing of it all. it should all blend in nicely.
another picture from birdman, simply showing side view.
from ponderingkoi.

has a couple glass sheet waterfalls and a couple splashing waterfall types going on, in this multi teir waterfall. (( multi teir = multi step waterfall in lamn terms or multipule small waterfalls in one big waterfall ))
top view of ponderingkoi waterfall

GloriaL
01-06-2007, 03:00 PM
This is a GREAT thread. As a sticky why isn't it at the top?

boggen
01-06-2007, 05:06 PM
placement of waterfalls.

the placement of a waterfall around the edge of your pond. goes hand in hand with tpr's, bottom drains, skimmers, and any other water currents and inlets and outlets for water you have for your pond.
if you haven't already would suggest reading over bottom drains and tpr's either now or after reading this section for placement of waterfalls.
on the smaller size ponds. more so watergarden ponds (( aka plant only ponds, or perhaps plant only ponds with couple goldfish or couple smaller fish in it )) were there not a great deal need for a bottom drains, tpr's, etc... normally a simple skimmer and perhaps a waterfall is wanted to provide a slow flow of water through the plant pond, to keep water from becoming stall and stagnet. by default these are the simplest setups for skimmer and waterfall postioning.
will fill in more data later

boggen
01-06-2007, 05:12 PM
digrams of placemetn of waterfalls

dreading this one. may take some time to fill in data. partiall reason is i don't know what would be good.
any idea's, thoughts, suggestions?

boggen
01-06-2007, 05:13 PM
more diagrams of placement of waterfalls

will fill in data later

boggen
01-08-2007, 08:00 AM
bottom drain advance gap height settings. or for the home made drains and domes.

Dave Starr
01-08-2007, 12:37 PM
Boggen, is there any way you could put all this together in a PDF or word document when you're done? It would be an easy way for us to print it all.

JUSTIN - PLEASE MAKE SURE THIS THREAD IS BACKED UP!!!!!

boggen
01-08-2007, 01:10 PM
EXCEL FILES

moving excel files off to a mini website of mine. its simply easier to update and change files as needed for myself.

click here for info on excel files (http://boggen.110mb.com/excel_files/)

kpung019
02-24-2007, 12:11 AM
Hi Ronan,

I just found this great site this week, and have been reading every post until my head hurts. Once I saw your thread on figuring out flow rates and head loss I felt like i was back in school. I love this stuff.:clap: Anyway, I have a chemical engineering degree and plan to figure out your TPR Examples on my spare time. Hopefully this will help me keep my engineering skills fresh.

I was also wondering if the BF drain gap equation changes if you add a diffuser?

Thanks alot
Newbie

boggen
02-24-2007, 01:06 AM
welcome to the forum.

as far as bottom drain dome gap height and air diffuser. the air diffuser won't nesserally effect the gap height. but the air diffuser will effect the water currents coming along the bottom of the pond.

in realty, aerated bottom drains can cause more boyunt ( lighter debrie ) from making it down into the drain. due to there is a more projected current upwards and away from the drain. due to the air diffuser in essence is forming a simplified air lift pump.

------

as far as hitting on your engineering skills. the goal of TPR's ( trigental point returns ), air diffusers on dome of bottom drains. is to provide extra current within the pond. which can be translated into velocity of the water. the faster the water is moving. the less likely a single peice of debrie will settle out of the water and stick to the pond bottom.

the TPR's help keep the outer rim of the pond water currents at a higher velocity. ((outer edge of pond bottom ))

if you looked at water currents from a aerated bottom drain. you would see something like a donunt shape. and with this takes care of the middle portion of the pond (( between wall and drain )) (( maintains higher velocites across middle portion of pond bottom.))

then the drain gets the area nearest to the drain. in keeping up the higher velocites. (( centter of pond bottom ))

-------

and to rehit on the gap height. the gap height is to deal with friction loss (( dynamic head loss )) at the dome. if you set the dome to low to pond bottom it would be like shutting a valve, and causing dynamic head loss.

setting the dome too high. and you loose coverage area around the dome, that the drain itself keeps clean.

--------------

all in all. the air lift pump calculations are still above my head.

all in all. the calculating of the velocities area the bottom drain measures x amount away from bottom drain are still above my head.

i am not an engineer. never graduated from highschool and only a couple computer collage classes. so if i am wrong plz correct me!

------------

just to re-hit on the question of yours. if you streched it all out. i could possible for see a yes to your question about gap height and an air diffuser on the dome of a bottom drain. but at that point i think you would be getting into some sort of fluid dynamics that would fall into say an engine or some sort of specialized container. were there is a critical point of tring to mix something or keep liquids from mixing as they went down the drain.

sworley
01-19-2008, 11:52 AM
TPR's, SQUARE shape pond.

the goal of below info and diagrams. is give idea of were to place tprs and what they can do to help keep the pond itself clean of muck and debrie, and fish poo, and etc...

everyone pond is different, and because of that, i ask that you apply the info. just don't take it on blind thought.

no drains, no TPR's, all the debris just collects in bottom of the pond
simple a bottom drain. with a pond size bigger than what the bottom drain can suck into it.
air diffuser on top of the bottom drain.
single TPR. note it throughs symetry of the water currents in the pond way off
2 TPR's symtrey is not completely achived. 2 corners have more debrie build up than other 2 corners.
4 TPR's symtry is achived
1 tpr, coming out the side of pond with a 90 inside the pond.
this can be a bad thing. with stuff sticking into pond. mainly due to fish can bumb into it and harm themselves. if you have ever witness fish spawning, you would truely understand how much the males shove the female around. (( think a bunch of 5 year old kids that were all given lots and lots of surgar and caffine ))
2 tprs, coming out pond side with a 90's inside pond. symetry not completey achived.
4 tprs, coming out pond side with a 90's inside pond. symetry achived
TPR's pointed directly at drain. aka no debrie is removed from pond.square ponds or rather trap crap corner ponds. are abit of a pain to deal with. mainly due to the corners will love to collect debrie and muck. its just something of matter of life when dealing with sharp corners.

the thought behind diagrams 4 - 6, is to show a safe way to add tprs to a pond, and keep fish from banging into them.
the thought behind diagrams 7 - 9, is to show a way of point tprs into corners to clean them out.
sadly, they require plumbing inside the pond. my personal preference is i don't like to see plumbing inside a pond. than and fish can harm themselves on stuff inside a pond.
the postioning of tprs is not a great use of tprs. granted they may clean the corner, but you loose alot of effective-ness for the rest of the pond bottom in keeping it clean of debriee and muck.


In diagram #6, are those TPR pipes sticking out into the pond? Are they angled down at all? Thanks