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danzcool
06-20-2006, 02:25 AM
So, a question for the breeders if any of them care to answer. On another thread, someone alluded to the stock in a typical mud pond being worth several hundred thousand dollars. I'm thinking that number is overinflated for a typical mud pond, but have no frame of reference. Is there anyway without giving up trade secrets of putting a value on the economics of a mud pond over the course of a year? Or how about how much a group of people would have to offer for exclusive access to a mud pond for growing on fish from your farm for a year? Just curious for knowledge-sake, not actively trying to find anything like that at this point in time.

mike pfeffer
06-20-2006, 08:46 AM
Maybe more like $25,000.

savannahrobinson
06-20-2006, 08:55 AM
Depends on the pond. Brett has two acre grow out ponds for the koi. This year's spawn, maybe between 100,000 and 300,000 fish. By time the egrets and herons are done, maybe half that.
Average value $2 - because he can sell the ugly ones for bait.

Sounds like a lot, but his average monthly power bill is over $1000, and his average monthly food bill is over $1000, and there are nets that are needed, gas for pumps, etc... he just about breaks even most years.

I don't think any responsible breeder is going to have a "hotel" pond. The risk of a disease coming in on the renting fish is too high. :)

If you want exclusive access to a mudpond, you have to build one. I have 3/4 acre muponds. Not including the air, water, plumbing, and land, just the dozer work was $9,000 per pond.
For a 3/4 acre mudpond, you need about 2 acres - land around here is $7,000 an acre.
You will need aeration, that means plumbing, and an electrical supply.
You will need water, that means plumbing, and a well if city water isn't available.

Edit: 7-17-06: That assumes you can find clay. In our part of the world, there is plentiful clay, insterspersed with sand layers. If you hit a sand layer, you have to pack clay over the sand to keep it from draining the pond.
The sand has an almost infinite ability to accept water, so you can't fill the pond fast enough if you hit sand.

With the increased cost of diesel since the twin hurricanes, the cost of dozer work has SKY rocketed. Current estimates almost double.

Ryan S.
06-20-2006, 11:13 AM
Interesting, this may not answer your question, but just some thoughts.

I've been quoted $4000 for construction of a 1/2 acre mud pond and regrading a little over a acre of land (for our next house). I thought this was high, I've only gotten one quote on the work. I've been holding of b/c state is going to replace a bridge on corner of property and area is developed except my wooded lot, so hoping to work out aggreement for them to cover clearing and regrading lot for place to park their equipment. I pick water from stream or will probably put in well for house (if geothermal heat/ac is used it will be use for water) or ponds anyways.

I've seen the financials of a large catfish farm operations here, I thought I remembered the escavation part costing $1500 per acre at the time (a couple years ago 120acre project I think)

Fish farm operations are struggling here, I imagine pond rental at a bass or catfish farm (the primary fish food crops here) would be very cheap, they don't have the KHV concerns as much. There are couple in this area that are behind big time on loans but banks are not forclosing b/c they wouldn't be able to sell of the farms.

You can price out the aeration systems for ponds from AES and operating costs for the summer months can be calculated. Fish farms here use them, but koi farms at much lower stocking rates often times do not.

I've been thinking about the same thing. Finding the correct farm pond (without runoff worries) I think is the way to go. If you look at the numbers many are working there asses off for 5% yearly returns, they mostly want to own the land at all costs but getting a 25yr lease for next to nothing is certiainly possible.

Brian Drake
06-20-2006, 12:18 PM
Ryan: You are on the right track....buy it and do it yourself. Mudponds also don't have to be lakes...I have seen many a small mudpond. Breeders like to put as many as they can (mudponds) because of the return on the RISK. IMHO.

Simi Koi
06-20-2006, 02:04 PM
I am the one that said the $ amount on the other thread. I have no real experience with it, but I thought I was guessing low. I figure several hundred thousand fry in a mud pond...even at a couple dollars each you will have 1/2 a million. And at least a few hundred of those will be $100 to $200 fish and a few dozen will end up being $1000 fish.

maybe some of the breeders can enlighten us?

Ryan S.
06-20-2006, 02:38 PM
Quality Koi 555 event can give you some numbers for a 250k gallon mud pond.

55 fish $500 each. $27,500 in stock

Normal growing cost for season ($100). $5500 for mud pond one season

For this event $55 each. $3025 for mud pond one season

Roark
06-20-2006, 07:12 PM
If those mudponds are holding brood fish, you can easily add another zero to that number, Dan. :)

Roark

danzcool
06-21-2006, 12:08 AM
Wow, I actually got some responses. One, the proposition of "renting" a pond is inly theiretical, and in this theory, I was thinking a smaller mud pond, I have no idea on gallons but maybe 1/4 acre or smaller? The other part of the theory wan no fish coming into the facility, just a group of people choosing a number of select fish and keeping them there, but having the pond dedicated to the group.
I thought the number Ned threw out was high based on a couple of assumptions, one being a relatively small mud pond (not a 1 acre pond), and being full of fry from one spsawning, I would imagine it would be tough to even get an average of $2 each for most domestic breeders since they mostly deal with wholesale and probably mostly bait or fish meal, which becomes koi by the pound. I'm thinking 25K sounds about right as far as what a pond (as assumed) can bring in for a spawn of fingerlings, then the expenses start cutting into it... Am I very far off?

Roark
06-21-2006, 12:38 AM
It's gonna vary dramatically by breeder, broodstock characteristics and how the breeder pairs them off. I've seen some very nice fish produce nothing but muji in one pairing... and some very nice offspring with a different pairing. So some spawns will be much more valuable than others. (And spawning tateshita with anything will generally give you just so much food for the bass too. :) )

Put it another way: If I was doing the spawning, it would cost you more in diesel to run the pump to empty the pond at the end of the season than the resulting fish were worth. But get someone who knows what they're doing (spawning and culling) and you could easily exceed that $25K number.

Roark

danzcool
06-21-2006, 01:03 AM
Great Roark, you're hired! I'll comp the diesel fuel for the pump.

Of course in the numbers, someone who knows what they are doing isn't going to sell all their fish the first year also, in which case what they do sell hopefully covers expenses and allows them to grow on another year with a lighter fish load in another mud pond.