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View Full Version : [DIY] Moving Bed bio filter / Cone bottom



Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 08:53 AM
This is how I made my moving bed, tested it for a while contained. Not part of my system yet, desided to make some changes attached to this part of my system and add another drum also. So this is in place, but waiting on me to do built another one so I cut this pump on.

Still have some issues desideing how much air flow and media I want to use. Have several cheap 2.3cfm pumps, can't deside if I want to power two off of one pump (~1.15cfm each), or individual pumps (2.3cuft each), or send ~1.5cuft (my estimate what would be ideal for one of these, and 2-3cuft of K1 media), and rest of flow back to pond with another manafold. Outlet is PVC with small holes drilled.

Harveythekoi
09-02-2004, 09:11 AM
What will keep the media in place when flushing? What amount of flow are we talking about? Is the coned bottom for cleaning purposes? Shouldn't this water be pre filtered?

On another thread over at KV Danzcool is working on one and is having a hard time churning the floating media without large amounts of air. Just something to think about.

Garrett

Meagain #1b
09-02-2004, 09:30 AM
c5 - Nice. I'm especially interested in how you created the slope at the bottom. Did that work out well for you? I have a 70g Rubbermaid stock tank that I want to at least slightly cone. Gene suggested using Vinyl Patch (comes in a bag like quick crete that has fibers, etc. in it for strength, etc).

I'm not familiar with "Surewall" and am curious about it. Curious about how you came up with the combo. Also curious about the greatstuff. I have a place where I'd like to soften a corner/edge in a tank and thinking that might be the trick. Did you paint the cone with Drylock just to better see the bottom, or was it more to seal up the Surewall stuff? I'd like to have an appropriate colored bottom to easily see debris but have been worried about stability under water. Worried it would flake so that each year I'd have to touch it up. How is all this holding up for you?

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 09:39 AM
What will keep the media in place when flushing? What amount of flow are we talking about? Is the coned bottom for cleaning purposes? Shouldn't this water be pre filtered?

On another thread over at KV Danzcool is working on one and is having a hard time churning the floating media without large amounts of air. Just something to think about.

Garrett

The DIY Vortex Microstrainer is ahead of the pump that is supplying this filter, so water is well prefiltered.

No provisions for flushing the floating K1, K1 would be at the top, so would not come out unless I flushed a really large volume from it.

Cone is for cleaning.

Not going to tune air until in production, I setup a 2.3cfm pump to this manafold and it looks like it would curn anything, more worried about how to tune the flow to not be to much.

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 09:55 AM
c5 - Nice. I'm especially interested in how you created the slope at the bottom. Did that work out well for you? I have a 70g Rubbermaid stock tank that I want to at least slightly cone. Gene suggested using Vinyl Patch (comes in a bag like quick crete that has fibers, etc. in it for strength, etc).

I'm not familiar with "Surewall" and am curious about it. Curious about how you came up with the combo. Also curious about the greatstuff. I have a place where I'd like to soften a corner/edge in a tank and thinking that might be the trick. Did you paint the cone with Drylock just to better see the bottom, or was it more to seal up the Surewall stuff? I'd like to have an appropriate colored bottom to easily see debris but have been worried about stability under water. Worried it would flake so that each year I'd have to touch it up. How is all this holding up for you?

Surewall is strong (exterior bonding mortor), you can dry stack blocks, spread this on the outside of them and it is stronger than a mortored block wall. I had a lot laying around, so that was the main reason. I think it is ~$15 per bag, mine was free, its how I did the rest of the pond. It is white in color, drylock is white in color also (you have it colored at paint store), drylock was just to help seal, surewall is probably fine by itself, but not much hassle for a $7 pint of drylock. Great stuff is solely there to fill a void with something that is light in weight, so the cone does not add to much weight to the device.

Meagain #1b
09-02-2004, 11:17 AM
I'm actually starting to think the great stuff might be easier than slathering on a concrete type mixture because it can be shaved to the right angle, etc. Hmmm....!~

luke-gr
09-02-2004, 12:30 PM
Makes sense to me. I have a couple drums that Id like to incorporate into my design. Ive heard good stuff about the Surewall. I plan on using it when I do block stacking.

About the Kaldness, Im gathering that it floats and thus is the best for the "fluidised" filters. If you keep pouring it in, does it push the rest down so that top level of Kaldness stays roughly at water level??

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 12:35 PM
Yes

Plenty of other medias float, K1 by size and shape is easier to curn with air. You can use it in other applications, I have 5cuft of it in trickle towers.

Meagain #1b
09-02-2004, 01:25 PM
C5 - Does that mean you ditched the 2 lava/stone looking towers in favor of the K1 chamber(s)? Modified them to hold K1 - yes? Pictures? :)

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 02:01 PM
C5 - Does that mean you ditched the 2 lava/stone looking towers in favor of the K1 chamber(s)? Modified them to hold K1 - yes? Pictures? :)

I'm running 2 separate systems now (some still under construction)

1 - Microstrainer - Sequence 3600 pump - 2 34" tall 20"wide TTs (one with bio balls, other with K1)

2 - MIcrostrainer & Skimmer - Sequence 3600 pump - ???

System 2 has not been completed, or entirely desided upon yet. Considering several ways to go. There will be at least 1 DIY Moving Bed with K1, and a 55watt UV somewhere in there (may feed a moving bed or waterfall filter. So I'm trying to deside between the following:
1 Moving Bed, 1 Waterfall filter
2 Moving Beds
2 Moving Beds, waterfall
3 Moving Beds
1-2 Moving Beds, Lava Rock Shower (easier to change out media).

Lava rock was difficult to maintain in the way that I set it up with, easier to replace/clean if you have no shell, or if you have it in containers of some sort (milk crates/trays/crates) wheither you call it a TT or Shower Filter.

TTs look the same, b/c still covered it egg rock. 1st moving bed is behind the TTs, fairly out of site. Picture from last year:

http://www.yippie.net/ebay/tt6.jpg

Need to decide soon, debating for several weeks now. System if fine now with the TTs, I now am down to 4 3yr olds ~20-24", 1 2yr old ~18", and 4 fry. Had at least 500 2-10" fry in here until 2 weeks ago.

danzcool
09-02-2004, 02:59 PM
Yes

Plenty of other medias float, K1 by size and shape is easier to curn with air. You can use it in other applications, I have 5cuft of it in trickle towers.

I'll chime in here, have you actually tested to see how easy it is to churn? It's fairly bouyant stuff. My first tests of it didn't cause the type of movement I was expecting, and at least based on the way I have been trying to do it, it is my opinion that the sinking media would churn easier with air. I will be trying a few more scenarios this weekend to see what I can do about the churning. If you have tested and have suggestions to improve my results, I'm all ears, even if you haven't tested I'm open to suggestions.

The thread on on the other parish...http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14014

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 03:35 PM
I'll chime in here, have you actually tested to see how easy it is to churn? It's fairly bouyant stuff. My first tests of it didn't cause the type of movement I was expecting, and at least based on the way I have been trying to do it, it is my opinion that the sinking media would churn easier with air. I will be trying a few more scenarios this weekend to see what I can do about the churning. If you have tested and have suggestions to improve my results, I'm all ears, even if you haven't tested I'm open to suggestions.

The thread on on the other parish...http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14014

Went back and skimmed through that post quickly, so sorry if I miss some of the info. Was basing some of my estimates on the sizing AES recommends for there Bioreator product. Note my reply for post in that thread, for your size tank (by width) by AES Bioreator sizing you would need at least 4cfm (~115 lpm). My test was with 2.3cfm in a size tank that the equiviant AES Bioreator would require 1.5cfm by there ratings... roughly 53% more air they they are recommending. Going back to your tank size, what I am pushing is equivant to you using >6cfm of air (~175 lpm). I'm fairly sure you would get some curning at these levels. I tested mine with 12 4" aquarium air stones, no water movement, MPT plugs in the outlets. Its in place now, difficult to test and post pics of until I deside on the rest of the filters for that pump and plumb it in. Will post them at that time. I'm using a ~$80 2.3cuft cheap pump, 3/4 flex to barrel, 1/2 solid pvc a manafold with 6 3" medium pore AES stones, that have 1/4 npt fittings. If you have the means, maybe should try something similar (the aquarium stones by the box from AES are dirt cheap and good for testing). I here it is of the option of others that larger bubbles are better for this, but the finner ones from aquarium types and the AES silica seem to create a greater "plum" of air for me. They are rated also, so easier to judge than diy types, as far as how much backpressure you are creating for you pump.

danzcool
09-02-2004, 03:43 PM
I haven't checked what you added to the thread overthere yet, but over the last couple of day, i have been giving serious consideration to testing with airstones at about half to 3/4 depth, so far all my tests have been at full depth, last night I tried blowing through the tube to the drilled ring, and couldn' get a bubble out at full depth, but was able to get some air out at half depth, so I'm thinking I may get a decent amount more of air volume by bringing it up some, garrett had mentioned that the nexus does not have the ring at the bottom, so I got to thinking and remembered reading something about the air diffuser on the bioreactors being adjustable height and not on the bottom also. So I think I will be trying something.

Ryan S.
09-02-2004, 04:23 PM
Post on the other forum is on page 1 of discussion. Sounded like those with more experence though a smaller flow was fine. Sizing appears off by AES bioreactor standards. Those are the closest thing to this, my reasoning for using them as a sizing guide. My air manafold is between 2/3 and 3/4 to the bottom. If you can't blow through it sounds like a lot of backpressure to me. Thats why I used oversized tubing and stones with 1/4" npt fittings.

Harveythekoi
09-02-2004, 05:17 PM
I'm changing mine this weekend too. The 55 gal barrel with 6 cu ft of media does churn ok but the hole where I had the air stone puched into the PVC has come ourt and the churning is limited to the one spot. I'm making a new " PVC air ring and looking for a smaller bit than the 1/64" I have. Plus I bought some of the snap on tees that I just going to use as legs. The new rings will be about 1" off the floor. As it churns now I can only see it as helping. I will post results.

Garrett

Ryan S.
09-03-2004, 08:36 AM
Got a lot of work done last night, should be able to cut on moving bed tonight. Have some flex tube to put in, could have finished last night but waiting for glue to dry. Will be busy over weekend/holiday, so will post pics in operation next Tuesday.

Here is spray bar:
http://www.koiboard.com/koi/pics/diymovingbed3.JPG

Harveythekoi
09-03-2004, 09:15 AM
Here what I did with my feed nozzles in my barrel. As far as your 2" exit pipe you could just use a straight slip coupler, or even in the last 45 and a threaded fitting. The mesh is called gutter guard sold at HD. Just press in, let sit for a while, remove and trim excess. You'll need something similar on the feed side for when you shut the pump down.

Garrett

Ryan S.
09-03-2004, 09:51 AM
Thanks Harvey... have not taken precaustions about the backwash of K1 into intake. Figured the pump will blow it back out, have a check check valve I could put in also.

Already built the drain pipe in the middle, although not glued in, so I can remove it to get other internals. Its just drilled PVC tee/pipe/cap with overflow on top.

Curious to see how it will work since other are having problems with K1 until it ages.

Meagain #1b
09-03-2004, 09:57 AM
Garrett - I have that gutter guard mesh material laying around. Would it hold in K1? I think you have something a bit bigger than K1, like the Ultima II beads - right? I'm in the baby stages of planning a k1 tank for my basement but don't have the darned K1. :)

Harveythekoi
09-03-2004, 10:04 AM
Mines longer but narrower in diameter. It's like the black beads in the Ultima but they are larger than those. Made by Ultima also. I have 5 cu ft of those and one cu ft of WLims floating media. I wanted to see if the floating and sinking medias would mix or separate. They mixed quite well. So fo the new pond set up I will use a 50/50 mix of floating and sinking media, probably all from WLim, his sinking is black and floating white so you would be able to see the mix better. I think this will allow the same amount of air to be more effective. I'm reworking the air ring once again this weekend and will raise it off the bottom an inch or so. I'll take pics and post results.

Garrett

http://members.cox.net/g.a.k.-1/Beadse.jpg

Harveythekoi
09-03-2004, 10:18 AM
Already built the drain pipe in the middle, although not glued in, so I can remove it to get other internals. Its just drilled PVC tee/pipe/cap with overflow on top.

Curious to see how it will work since other are having problems with K1 until it ages.

I was refering to the drain in the bottom for cleaning. Not the outflow pipe. The holes should work, if not cut some slots in a pipe, that gives a lot of area. What size pump are you using? The 2" may not handle all that with a gravity flow out. I have a 4" slotted tube to a 3" exit pipe and the water level rides high. You'll also need to screen that overflow, the floating media will go with it.

When you first add the K1 it will float high for a day. Once all the little air bubbles get off it will start to work better then. When ripe they will perform even better.

Garrett

http://members.cox.net/g.a.k.-2/BBL1e.jpg

Ryan S.
09-03-2004, 10:23 AM
Harvey... So you had the WLin floating media in the MB you posted before? I got mixed up, though you were using K1 also. With sinking media, if you shut off air pump, media goes to bottom, if you have air stones/ring say 1/3 up off bottom in tank, when you cut it back on media stays on bottom. So wouldn't work unless you have air on bottom, right?

Ryan S.
09-03-2004, 10:36 AM
I was refering to the drain in the bottom for cleaning. Not the outflow pipe. The holes should work, if not cut some slots in a pipe, that gives a lot of area. What size pump are you using? The 2" may not handle all that with a gravity flow out. I have a 4" slotted tube to a 3" exit pipe and the water level rides high. You'll also need to screen that overflow, the floating media will go with it.

When you first add the K1 it will float high for a day. Once all the little air bubbles get off it will start to work better then. When ripe they will perform even better.

Garrett



Thanks Garrett (sorry is Harvey one of your Koi?)

OK, I have 1.5" fpt input, 2" fpt gravity out to pond, 2" for drain. I have a Sequence 3600gph that will be feeding 3 devices, 1 Moving Bed, 1 Waterfall Filer, 1 55watt UV (empties into waterfall filter also). Will have to tune the flow when I cut it on. Will only have to flow 800-1500gph, should be fine for that. From the pump I'm actually spliting output to 3 1.25" Flex tubes to each device, controled by 1.5" ball valves.

Bottom drain is open, I realize this could be a problem on a large drainage, but I only expect to have to empty small amounts, only the top 1/3 will be K1 so I should be fine (I'm thinking ?). Tested the bottom drain with cone bottom on the microstrainer last night, works very from first test. I made the bottom drain come down from top and go out side for 2 reasons: (1) Going to be partially buried in each application anyways, (2) functions like having a cap on a drain, draws from the sides instead of strait down.

Harveythekoi
09-03-2004, 10:51 AM
Seemed like a good handle.

The 5 cu ft is the ultra bio media by Ultima, then white ones pictured above, and they are sinking (it was available locally) I recently added 1 cu ft of WLims floating which is closer to K1 in shape and design. His Black Sinking and White floating are the same shape just different materials. Plus I think the salt and pepper look would be neat to watch churn. :eek:

I like your design and want to see how it performs. Stick with it and modify as necessary. As far as the air on the bottom for sinking media that's why I only want to raise it an inch or so. Better movement for the displaced water and even the sinking media should still be active. Remember I have one of my inflow nozzles (now a tee for more flow) right near the bottom. This also helps to move the media.

Garrett

Ryan S.
09-07-2004, 08:23 AM
Ok, have no problems curning the K1. Noticed what others were saying about the new K1 floating. Started with some K1 out of a TT, which curned fine and added new K1 about 3 gallons at a time. Never watched it the whole time, but it stops floating in less than 2 hours at least (just soaking in bucket overnight did not work). Around 2.5 cuft of K1 in there now, had entire output from 2.3cuft air pump curing it, but cut it down by running a second line and 2 defusers to pond and adjusting ball valves. I estimate ~1.5cfm curning it fine now. Never knew bioballs would curn also, but they do, through one in to try and track how it is curning, reappears at surface about once every 8 seconds.

Harveythekoi
09-07-2004, 08:39 AM
Seems like a nice even roil. So is this officially on line? Or still experimenting? Keep us informed on the progress.

Reworked the diffuser ring in mine. Raised it off the bottom about an inch. Started with a new ring that was just a little smaller in diameter because the bottom nozzle got in the way. Also found some ultra tiny drills. The one I used was probably 1/3 the size of the 1/64" bit I used before. Got about 22 holes 2" apart. It doesn't churn much different other than being distributed evenly across the barrel now. I had one hot spot that would boil up and toss media out of the barrel.

Garrett

Ryan S.
09-07-2004, 09:10 AM
Yes, online now. Hard to tell from still picture, but everything moving quite well now. This one air pump could probably support 2 of these, which I may do in the future. Fine bubbles working good.

danzcool
09-07-2004, 03:36 PM
Interesting. I have not yet run the test for 2 hours at a time, perhaps that is what has been my problem. I did a test with airstones this weekend, and I liked the air distribution better than any other cofiguration I have tried so far. Perhaps I just need to let it run and see what happens after a bit. What I am seeing is there is a small portion that just floats near the surface either around the discharge tube, or some around the outside, but only about 1 layer deep, and underneath it is moving quite well. I am currently using 2.3 CFM pump, which may be undersized. I really like the center discharge tube/screen I have, there was zero clumping of the media to it, I think I am going to feed the air from the top, no holes in the tank. So now I have to decide on the "water in" distribution/jets. I tried with the full power pump and 2 45 degree, which caused perhaps a bit more rotation than I was hoping for, but it did keep everything moving. I'm thinking of doing 4 in's with them aimed a little more down.

Ryan S.
09-07-2004, 04:10 PM
I don't think the water-in makes big difference, the air is moving most of it. You still maybe close on the pump size, that is quite small for that size tank. Never heard how much media you are running? I think my 2.3cfm could handle 2 of these filters, with the 24" tanks I'm using. Your surface area is still much greater than 2 of these, so you may need more. The pump I'm using cost ~$80, have a backup and replacement diaphrams for them.

lilhelper
03-09-2006, 01:33 PM
Hmmm looks good, I could probably make one of those for my upcoming pond