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View Full Version : Sick fish - eggs not being released?



Sonny
03-03-2006, 07:37 PM
I've noticed over the past couple of days that one of my Tommy Ranchus has been lethargic and listing. Sort of laying on the bottom most of the time and not really eating. So I went to the Puregold (http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/home.html) website and followed the goldfish physical instructions. When I turned the fish over its anal area was a little reddish and its stomach was kind of mushy. When I started poking around a bit eggs started coming out. The website said that a salt dip might make them purge the eggs so I gave her a salt bath for about one minute. The directions said to put 1/2 cup salt for each gallon so I put in 2 cups into 4 gallons. It didn't take much prodding to get the eggs out so I hope they are not impacted. Of course, she's my favorite. :(

Water parameters look pretty good I think...

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40
Salt 0.15%

Does anyone have experience with treating a condition like this?

koidoc
03-03-2006, 08:29 PM
If the eggs came out easy, why were you helping? What would eggs have to do with lethargy? Did you try just changing water first and maybe turn up air? What was the temp?

Sonny
03-03-2006, 08:36 PM
Yesterday I did a 30% water change and brought the salt up from 0.1% to 0.15%. I also added a large amount of airation (there was none before). This is what the instructions (from Puregold) said to do. The instructions then said if the fish did not improve in 24 hours perform the fish physical. While performing the physical this is when I noticed the eggs.

The temp is 76.

Ronin-Koi
03-03-2006, 10:58 PM
Sorry to hear about your ranchu problems, Sonny.
My "Niobe" red and black Ryukin was definitely full of eggs when I got her. I was very concerned because while in quarantine, she was alone, and then when I added her in with my other fish, neither seemed to be a mature male. So she would just occassionally release some eggs whenever she exerted herself like when chasing after food, or when I do a water change which causes her to swim around more. She did not act sick or lathargic. In fact she seemed very strong and vibrant, just occasinally shooting eggs. It lasted for a few weeks, then went away.

Not that this helps your situation, but that is what happened with my female. Do you have males around? If she has eggs, shouldn't the males be chasing her around?

- Wayne, has heard about koi being egg-bound. What about goldfish, and what happens?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 07:02 AM
Does it have a tank mate. Goldfish do not do good alone.

Sonny
03-04-2006, 07:41 AM
She's with 5 other fish. Odds are that one of them is a male but I don't know for sure.

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 07:53 AM
She's with 5 other fish. Odds are that one of them is a male but I don't know for sure.
Yes, odds are that there is a male in there somewhere, it depends if they are mature enough to care about a hot babe in the tank. Does anyone know at what age goldfish should start to get ... errr... interested? Or what size?

- Wayne, hoping that stage takes a while because he is not ready to have spawning in his tank yet.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 08:53 AM
6 months old for sex, about.or about 15 in human years if live 3 years.
Does this fish eat? Have you given protein to help stimulate appetite like brine, etc.?

Sonny
03-04-2006, 10:07 AM
I just found (what looks to me like) an ulcer directly to the right of her mouth.

She's eating a bit of krill but not very much.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 11:04 AM
Any Pictures of mouth. Do 50% water change and add malachite green/formalin. Quickcure or any brand. Proform C? Try live food if store is close?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 11:06 AM
Do we have a moderator on this board? :D: :D: :cool: Do we need one?

Sonny
03-04-2006, 11:24 AM
Here's a pic. BTW, thanks for all your help.

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 12:06 PM
Ouch, poor fishie...

- Wayne, thinks one good thing about aquariums is the ability to inspect fish up close and personal on a daily basis. Top view ponds would make this harder?

Sonny
03-04-2006, 12:20 PM
- Wayne, thinks one good thing about aquariums is the ability to inspect fish up close and personal on a daily basis. Top view ponds would make this harder?

Yup. Jim was thinking the same thing. :thinking:

koidoc
03-04-2006, 12:20 PM
OUCH is right. Looks like an abcess in the cheek that opened out. This is hard to fix. Still do Formalin but need to treat lession as well. Swab out with Peroxide on q-tip. Then iodine on q-tip and swab.

emmalou
03-04-2006, 12:23 PM
Thats a large fish! Poor thing.hope things work out for you.

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 01:11 PM
Out of curiosity, how large is this fish total length wise and how long have you had it?

Thanks. Good luck.

- Wayne, wonders what causes such a thing. Would it be infectious and should the fish be quarantined from the rest of the fish?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 04:20 PM
How long will he have it is the question right now? I think he said he just got from Tommy.

Sonny
03-04-2006, 06:00 PM
Out of curiosity, how large is this fish total length wise and how long have you had it?
She's about 5 or 5.5 inches and have had her four weeks. I attached a pic of her that was posted on Tommy's auction site.

I treated with iodine once this morning before I left for the Pond Society meeting. I'll go re-treat with peroxide and iodine now. Is formalin something I can buy at the local fish store? Is it a brand name?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 07:04 PM
At store easiest is Quick Cure, but proform is the same just look at ingredients. Malachite and Formalin. Use as directed with no carbon then wait 3 days, change water and treat again then see if healing. May be to late that deep. It may already be getting septicemia.

Sonny
03-04-2006, 07:40 PM
I found Quick Cure. I assume I should treat the whole tank (6 fish)?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 07:41 PM
yes treat all fish

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 07:52 PM
yes treat all fish Art, I don't disagree, just want to understand. Do you suspect the reason for the ulcer or whatever it is was caused by something that might affect the rest of the fish? Again, do people think this is something that is infectious? What caused it?

Hey, Karl, this seems like the kind of an emergency thread that you are looking for. But Helping in this forum would be ok too.

Sonny, just to give us a better idea on what is going on, do you have a quarantine set up and do you typically quarantine new fish? And do you typically do any type of shot-gun treatment on incoming new fish? If so, when did you add this fish into the larger tank with the rest of the fish?

- Wayne, hopes the fish recovers. Ouch again. :(

Sonny
03-04-2006, 08:14 PM
Sonny, just to give us a better idea on what is going on, do you have a quarantine set up and do you typically quarantine new fish? And do you typically do any type of shot-gun treatment on incoming new fish? If so, when did you add this fish into the larger tank with the rest of the fish?
Wayne,

All of these fish are in my quarantine tank now. It is a 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank. I have a 125 gallon aquarium that has filters cycling with two smaller Wakin doing the dirty work. I am also building a 275 gallon outdoor goldfish habitat but it is not yet ready. Probably jumped the gun a bit on buying fish but I get carried away in the auctions. I do not typically do any shotgun treatments on new fish. But, I haven't been getting any new fish recently until I started buying Tommy fish. I figured it would be safe to hold them all in my quarantine tank since they were all coming from Tommy. I'm definitely nervous about this outbreak but I need to learn and hopefully can achieve a good outcome for all my new fish. Whatever happens I will learn a lot I'm sure. (I'm already doing things to the fish I've never done before like treating with hydrogen peroxide and iodine.)

Art, I sure hope I don't lose the fish but even if I do I will always be grateful for your help. When things go wrong it is comforting for someone who knows what they are doing to take the time to help those who don't. :yes:

Sonny
03-04-2006, 08:16 PM
BTW, I removed the carbon and added the Quick Cure. Should I keep treating the ulcer with peroxide and iodine?

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 10:14 PM
I do not typically do any shotgun treatments on new fish. But, I haven't been getting any new fish recently until I started buying Tommy fish. I figured it would be safe to hold them all in my quarantine tank since they were all coming from Tommy. For what it is worth, I am now a believer of shotgun treatments for incoming fish. I notice no bad reactions with treatments such as formalin and malachite green (QuICK Cure) so far. I equate this with children's innoculations, or maybe with flu shots. Not exactly the same, but it is a precaution and a measure of insurance.

- Wayne, assumes the worse.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 10:26 PM
No you clean and cauterize only once. If you keep cauterizing it will not heal so just once. Yes I to will use Quick Cure everytime on Tommy fish. He does not have a long quarantine process like Ken.
I can not tell if the infection came from an inside abcess or started with an outside parasite, but it is invasive now and bacteria. I would sugest because of how agressive it looks that there is a Flexbacter component along with Aeromonas. I would think contagious. If my fish I would do one of two things. I would inject if I wanted to save it with Amikacin. Formalin may help from spreading but I do not think will cure this one without AB. Worth a try. Since the fish is going septic I would isolate it from other fish.
Actually this is not what I would do. This is what someone would do if they want to save it.
What I would do is destroy that fish to protect others and treat remaining fish twice with Quick Cure which is what I would have done with fish from Tommy to begin with. Tommy is a nice guy and has good prices, but his stock is not clean for non treatment.

Sonny
03-04-2006, 10:39 PM
Oh man, that is a bummer. :(

Ronin-Koi
03-04-2006, 10:53 PM
Yes I to will use Quick Cure everytime on Tommy fish. He does not have a long quarantine process like Ken....
... and treat remaining fish twice with Quick Cure which is what I would have done with fish from Tommy to begin with. Tommy is a nice guy and has good prices, but his stock is not clean for non treatment. And the hearts of half the goldfish forum suddenly sinks as they say in unison "... Now, you tell us?" :D:

Sorry, I don't mean to make light of an obviously serious situation. Especially with Jim's ranchu. For anyone that has not done shotgun, if the fish are all mixed in and doing well, maybe it's no biggie. Just keep an eye on em. Or, do it now?

- Wayne, can't imagine what he is going to do when he gets koi and isn't able to inspect them inches away through aquarium glass.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 11:10 PM
Know your supplier. Not a problem since all fish should be Q-tank no matter. And if no known regimen before, then shotgun. If you know like Kens fish that they have been in Q-tank for at least 5 weeks and treated and scraped before sale then I just watch in Q. If Tommys or Southwest or even Gunn I shotgun. All these dealers sell right after in country.Goldfish are easy since we change water anyway. Treat wait a few days, change, treat. Quick Cure is cheap.
No reason to tell you this. This is given and when I doubt ask the dealer what they have treated and how.
Can you isolate Ranchu in 10 gal tank. Treat and raise temp to 82 degrees and still learn from it.

Meg
03-05-2006, 02:29 AM
Oh man, that is a bummer. :(
oh my :( yes it is :depress:

Sonny
03-05-2006, 06:53 AM
Can you isolate Ranchu in 10 gal tank. Treat and raise temp to 82 degrees and still learn from it.
Besides raising the temp, would I treat the fish differently than what I am already doing? I have some Rubbermain tanks of various sizes. Would they work just as well? I will go buy another tank if I need to.

Ronin-Koi
03-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Besides raising the temp, would I treat the fish differently than what I am already doing? I have some Rubbermain tanks of various sizes. Would they work just as well? I will go buy another tank if I need to.
I think the rubbermaid tubs would work ok if that is what you have. I have a large (probably 35 gallon) plastic storage tub that I was going to use for quarantine. But I decided to get an aquarium instead so that I could better observe the fish. If you don't have a heater on the large tank yet, you don't need as large of a heater to heat the small tank.

- Wayne, ended up getting heaters for both his large tank and the QT in order to keep the fish at constant 75 F which is a bit warmer than he keeps his home during winter.

Sonny
03-05-2006, 05:32 PM
...I decided to get an aquarium instead so that I could better observe the fish.
As I thought about I decided the same thing. So I bought a 15 gallon aquarium, an Eheim filter and a heater. I hope to move the Ranchu in a little bit later. I used some bioballs from one of my submersible filters in the Eheim to get some quick biological filtration going. At least, that is the plan. Here are pictures of my qtank and new hospital tank.

Sonny
03-06-2006, 07:41 AM
I put her in the hospital tank last night. Noticed the ulcer looked like it might be spreading a bit. I was going to call my vet today and see about getting an antibiotic injection. This morning she was dead. At least she is not suffering any more. I hope I got her out in time to prevent spread to other fish.

koidoc
03-06-2006, 08:41 AM
Sorry Sonny, but not much you could do to avoid it. Now just need to finish treating others and move on and learn. Sorry