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koidoc
03-02-2006, 07:11 PM
Here is a nice Betta aquarium in acrylic that is 6"x6"x8"high with hinged cover. It comes in clear back, red back, blue back or white back. Holds 1 gal. Custum made for about 7.50-8.35 each.

JPR
03-02-2006, 09:45 PM
Hey Art, these are my latest--- JR

emmalou
03-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Here is a nice Betta aquarium in acrylic that is 6"x6"x8"high with hinged cover. It comes in clear back, red back, blue back or white back. Holds 1 gal. Custum made for about 7.50-8.35 each.
THose are nice Art.........


JR :D: I never know when you are serious or giving Art grief

but those are fabulous bettas!

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:04 PM
My dear madam, I am the guy who turned our Art onto these fish and that auction! ;)

Those are mine. I have at least 60 betta in the fish room! Three males guarding eggs right now!

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:12 PM
One of my favorites is the wild throw back form of betta called a Plakat in its native Thailand. The high end breeders produce this fighter in a halfmoon tail type- think of it as a short finned betta-- Here is one I own that I think is really HOT!

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:13 PM
a second one

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:15 PM
Now here is that fish in a longfin version- a half moon fancy betta

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:17 PM
Currently, my favorite fish---

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:18 PM
But here is a close second!

JPR
03-02-2006, 10:19 PM
Some one stop me before I POST again! LOls

Brian Drake
03-02-2006, 10:36 PM
JR: Outstanding...you got me thinking.

PHPong
03-02-2006, 10:36 PM
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e336/RCPENG/DCP_0012.jpg

koidoc
03-02-2006, 10:42 PM
I love the gold Jim. I am working on my betta wall. Give me a chance to catch up and when is the trip to Thailand and Bangkok.

WA Monkey
03-02-2006, 10:48 PM
Those are so pretty !!!

Noahsnana
03-02-2006, 10:56 PM
Hey Art, these are my latest--- JR

Isn't competition great... :rofl:

Nice Bettas JR

emmalou
03-02-2006, 11:13 PM
JR...I never knew! THose are such spectacular bettas! I do like the different species one can aquire with bettas.wow........I have to stay out of Wally world and get busy on my auction sites! I thought I was doing well with 18 mutts :rolleyes:

JR.do you breed to sell? Post #9 is stunning.

Meg
03-02-2006, 11:28 PM
JR those are beautiful :eek:
I am surprised at how much I like the white one :yes: at first the white seems boring compared to the flash of the others, but with a second look...wOw!

saltiery
03-02-2006, 11:48 PM
wow! unusual colors Jim.... Lovely collection!

Cowiche Ponder
03-03-2006, 02:08 AM
what is the auction site you guys are using?

What kind of fees are incurred, guess better questions is how much are the extra fees for bringing them into the country?

So if an auction fish was $30..how much more would I expect to pay extra for shipping and import?

DesertPonder
03-03-2006, 11:07 AM
Some one stop me before I POST again! LOls

No, no!! Keep going!! They are so pretty! :yes: :yes:

I've decided to give Bettas another try. Never had any luck with them before, they would also die shortly after I got them.

I bought a crowntail at Petco the other day and have him setup in one of the little 5 gallon bowfronts that I had. I've done a bunch of reading on them and we'll see how it goes this time.

I was at one of our independent pet stores yesterday and they had some really nice bettas. They had the ones that were kind of a peachy color. Really pretty, I was tempted. :yes:

koidoc
03-03-2006, 11:24 AM
Jim and I do not compete. We just both enjoy the pursuit, capture and enjoyment of beautiful things. When it comes to Koi and bettas, we enjoy the best of the best and the finer things in life.
Desert- You may be able to get Bettas cheap. The transhipper I use is in Colorado. If you can pick them up from her it would only cost you about $8 per fish on top of the bid price. You can get most for $30 each.
As far as costs after bid price you pay
$5 per fish to get to USA
$2.60 per fish customs and handling
$9 per box packing
$2 for heat pack this time of year
$60 overnight FedX
So lets say you buy 10 fish at $20 each on auction. To get them here you have $50, then $26 handling, $11 box and heat, $60 ship.
So all this is about $35 per fish, but only for ten. If you got 5 at $20 on auction they would be about $40 per fish when divide up. Cheaper than goldfish and not much room,
Here is what I am duplicating for my bettas only on a smaller scale of 24 tanks. Has continuous flow of filtered water through so not many water changes needed.

Ronin-Koi
03-03-2006, 11:35 AM
Art, that is WILD! Now I see what you mean by your Betta Wall. Pretty cool...

- Wayne, can not get over how little space the bettas are kept in. He understands that the bettas do not need aeration due to their ability to breath from the surface, but for the really small containers (like that globe photo) how is it that they are able to survive the unfiltered deteriorating water conditions? Super-fish?

Susan Reed
03-03-2006, 11:35 AM
my goodness Art......pertty soon you will have to build another room just for your Bettas :yes:


I can not wait till I get back home and start shopping for a few Bettas myself ;) DH thinks I'm nuts! :D: I am!!! :yes: so your point?? I ask :To funny:

off subject for a sec....
Bart and Kathy are on their way to your place........... :yes: get them to show you a pic of Charley! :D:

emmalou
03-03-2006, 11:36 AM
Wow,.that is an incredible tank setup! Would one still have to vacuum the bottom of the tanks though? Thats where the debris would settle.no?

koidoc
03-03-2006, 11:41 AM
Just for you in BC for bettas
http://www.bcbetta.com/stock.html
Yes still need to vacumn but when done you just refill sump tank and the little ones refill themselves.

emmalou
03-03-2006, 11:50 AM
Just for you in BC for bettas
http://www.bcbetta.com/stock.html
Yes still need to vacumn but when done you just refill sump tank and the little ones refill themselves.
Thanks Art!

Susan Reed
03-03-2006, 11:52 AM
whats the link for the betta auction/sale?

emmalou
03-03-2006, 12:17 PM
Susan.....I think it is Aquabid.com?

Koikeeper2you
03-03-2006, 12:36 PM
Here is a nice Betta aquarium in acrylic that is 6"x6"x8"high with hinged cover. It comes in clear back, red back, blue back or white back. Holds 1 gal. Custum made for about 7.50-8.35 each.
??????????????????????????????????????What type?
Curious

DesertPonder
03-03-2006, 12:36 PM
Desert- You may be able to get Bettas cheap. The transhipper I use is in Colorado.


Hmmmm, could you PM me with that info?? If she is close, that would be a savings. I'm betting she is on the eastern slope though, closer to the big airports. I might as well pay the FedX, it would cost just as much for me to drive all the way to the Eastern slope.

That Betta Wall is similar to how the one independent pet store here has theirs done. I like it because you can see each individual betta really well rather than from a cup of blue water.

koidoc
03-03-2006, 02:28 PM
Site for bettas on Aquabid

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?=100=115=120&1&cg
Just go to Halfmoons. That is where the hobby is at and I think the best.
Filtration will be 20 gal tank with 2 cu.ft Bio Fill. The pump comes from this and goes into every tank by 1/4" line with valve. Then water comes out of each one by 3/8" tubing and all drain to 20 gal tank. Then bio fill then pumped again. If want to change 50% of water in system I just drain 20 gal tank down 3/4 and fill then the new water goes to each tank. Can also put heater in 20 gal tank if want to.

koidoc
03-03-2006, 02:31 PM
Sorry no address for Linda but her area code is 720.
her e-mail is linda_9555@msn.com

emmalou
03-03-2006, 02:46 PM
Art..I just want to thank you for that link you gave me! Just got a reply from the breeder.she is only a ferry ride(2 hours) away from me! Hubby is often on the mainland.so next time he goes.I will tag along and go to her house and pick my fish! She said no problem about picking them out in person.saves her the time to pack and ship.and its much cheaper.I can get lots :eek:

emmalou
03-03-2006, 02:55 PM
Site for bettas on Aquabid

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?=100=115=120&1&cg
Just go to Halfmoons. That is where the hobby is at and I think the best.
Filtration will be 20 gal tank with 2 cu.ft Bio Fill. The pump comes from this and goes into every tank by 1/4" line with valve. Then water comes out of each one by 3/8" tubing and all drain to 20 gal tank. Then bio fill then pumped again. If want to change 50% of water in system I just drain 20 gal tank down 3/4 and fill then the new water goes to each tank. Can also put heater in 20 gal tank if want to.
Art.when you get this setup, could you please post a pic.I am such a visual person .........How many tanks are you going to be supplying from that 20 gallon tank?

koidoc
03-03-2006, 08:35 PM
Glad you found the site. They have nice bettas now and then.
I will have 24 one gallon tanks so with 20 gals about 50% of system water is in filter at one time. Should be fairly efficient when get started.

aartwmich
03-04-2006, 07:57 AM
Art.when you get this setup, could you please post a pic. I am such a visual person ..DITTO!! actually, post multiple pics :D:

koidoc
03-04-2006, 09:07 AM
Could not resist. One more betta for this shipment.

KoiKid
03-04-2006, 10:05 AM
Wow... I've always wanted a show betta. I've been looking for one that's good quality and a reasonable price. Anyone have a good link?

emmalou
03-04-2006, 10:07 AM
Glad you found the site. They have nice bettas now and then.
I will have 24 one gallon tanks so with 20 gals about 50% of system water is in filter at one time. Should be fairly efficient when get started.
Good stuff.thanks.

JPR
03-04-2006, 03:18 PM
The difference between 'petstore' bettas and this fish you have been seeing. Almost all pet store betta are veil tail bettas. They have long flowing tails that tend to hang down when they are resting or are 'tube' shaped when they are flaring. You will also notice that on most, the color is only moderatey bright and most often 'incomplete' or non uniform in color and/or pattern.

The fish that Art and I are showing you are half moons. Their fin/tail shape is as the name implies- a half moon. The number of rays and degrees of the half circle are ways to tell if a fish is good, better or best. The OHM or OVER Half Moom betta is the one most sought after. The next level of appreciation after HM, OHM is the BF ( Or butterfly half moon). This is one step more complicated and therefore a good one is more accomplished. This BF is a pattern trait. The edges of the fins are all in another color- typically white or black- and this really sets off the look of the rest of the fish.
Here is the Tri-fecta then- an OHM BF of very deep color and with fins that are over 180% and are supported by many rays ( like masts supporting sails on a boat)

These bettas that make this basic type ( HM) typically start at 15 or 20 dollars can go up to about $90. Add the over HM and some spectacular color and you are looking at a range from $35- $120. Add the rays, BFs in specatular even bright color and huge flowing finnage and you are now in the $50- $290 range.
And like in life, a good female is priceless!!! With a pretty female having high ray count and color and finnage going for more than many shwy males. Usually in the $35- $120 range!
One word of warning-- These fish are NOT durable or long lived! The fish in stores can be over one year old and since they only live two or three years, you have to concsider what you are paying. These high prices almost require you to breed these fish to enjoy a generation or two of the high price paid for such short lived fish.

The single one thing that kills most betta is water temperature. They like warm water- but too warm and they burn out and also tend to get infections- bacteria and fungus. So although they like 80-82 F, you might be better off keeping them at 75-78 F as you avoid some of the things I mentioned. They can live OK in water of 70- 74 but you will notice they remain relatively inactive. And those kept in small containers at room temperature will likely get worn down in a matter of months and just sorta slip any over that time.
The second cause of death is bacteria infection. This is easy for any koi kepper to understand- dirty water leads to high bacteria count. Cold water leads to high stress. A fish kept in a vase and not changed regularly and you get -- dead bettas!

JR

Art, get those betta racks done! I'm up for a trip to Thailand!! Already have a guide of us lined up! ;)

koidoc
03-04-2006, 04:35 PM
Hey Jim, How is your daughter? Anything new on OC?
He does not start building for two weeks? I just ordered all the parts for the job. Have sump and pump. Lights for shelves. Everything for my project. I will send the in and out nipples to him to drill holes. Then I just screw in when they come. Half red and half white. So give me a month and back on auction. Tell Linda I will be back. This shipment arrives here Wend.
Need an up to date list of good breeders and ones to be aware of that use bad pictures. I like the Betta Quality group so far.
I have been studying and learning bettas fast. I know all the colors and patterns. BF, orchid,marble, mask. I know all the colors. I know the relative finnage length and where they start on body. Pectoral fin shape. I know straight halfmoon from Rosetail with the pleats. I know over halfmoon. I know 180, 190, 200 degrees.
What I can not figure out is the ray count. They say 4 ray, 8 ray(which I think is good) but what are they talking about and what are they counting when I look at a picture.
By the way BF also comes in clear which I do not like.
Some fish within the color have little dots like peacocks and some are solid color. What are these called? Did I pick a good yellow. I studied about 6 to pick that one. It is getting bad. The more I study and then search, the more I do not like. Just like koi. I am starting to like the ones that have $60 minimums and not the $20 anymore.Crap!!
So while the weather is still cold and all we have is Stephen vision, lets learn bettas. We can start a new thing here like we stirred up goldfish.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 04:36 PM
Hey Jim, how about pictures of your tanks that were made.

emmalou
03-04-2006, 04:40 PM
JR.wonderful data! Between yourself and Art.I should be able to buy myself a quality betta...I have had bettas for as long as I can remember really.but the varieties that are out now are simply spectacular. I do still appreciate the "mutts" though...as in koi and goldfish.there are those that you just "have" to keep around. ;) And I would really appreciate seeing the setups of both your rooms...

Cowiche Ponder
03-04-2006, 04:47 PM
wow... I mean wow... the pics of your guys' fish and then looking at those on aquabid...wow.

I just lost mine and after reading your info JR I know it was too cold. Will not get another until I have a good tank to keep it in.

KoiKid
03-04-2006, 05:07 PM
All of my bettas are in painfully small containers. I perform water changes often and try to keep them comfortable, but I honestly don't have the room for 4 5-gallon aquariums. I'd show you pics of them, but they are the most ugly fish I've seen in a LONG time. They are all 3+ years and getting sad looking... But still seem very healthy!

Cowiche Ponder
03-04-2006, 05:33 PM
Kat even 4 - 1 gallon aquariums would be better than most of the little bowls that they are often kept in. The ones that bother me are the ones at the stores kept in a cup that maybe has 3/4 cup of water in them. I'm sure they change the water in them everyday ...:rolleyes: :no:

I had mine in a vase that probably holds 4 cups..maybe :(

emmalou
03-04-2006, 05:37 PM
Kat even 4 - 1 gallon aquariums would be better than most of the little bowls that they are often kept in. The ones that bother me are the ones at the stores kept in a cup that maybe has 3/4 cup of water in them. I'm sure they change the water in them everyday ...:rolleyes: :no:

I had mine in a vase that probably holds 4 cups..maybe :(
Thats why I have 32 of them now :eek: :eek: All mutts..but it makes me sick seeing them in those freakin plastic cups :sick: I am done now.lol.until I get me some beauty's ;)I picked up three females today.actually quite nice looking..white bodies.dark red fins..... :thinking: Still mutts :D: My niece and Nephew are each getting one from me.complete with proper setup.as well as my Mom :rofl: She will kill me.but she does have a soft spot for them..There are a few folks that I am going to"gift" these fish to :D:

KoiKid
03-04-2006, 05:42 PM
I like to think I'm "rescuing" them from the stores. They are all kept in a quart tank with a cover except for my crowntail, who's in the 1.5 gallon. I posted some pics of him in Photography. He won't hold still for ANYTHING. :no:

JPR
03-04-2006, 08:55 PM
Thanks Miss Lou. Art, rather than just go to the show tanks, maybe it would be good to start at the beginning---

Rack systems are a very practical way to manage a large bettas collection-- better water quality, more stable temps and pH and one filter system to handle a very large volume of water with just a very few tiny fish in it! All good.
But there is one serious drawback- IF you bring a sick fish in the pathogen can spread through and wipe out an entire collection in 48 hours!

The answer? ALL, I mean ALL, imports must be quaranteed for at least four weeks. Betta have a nasty virus also that must be watched out for.
Like koi, betta arrive very stressed. They travel very well compared to other types of fish, due mainly to a special organ in teh gill area that allows them to extract oxygen directly from the air. But unlike koi, if they are chilled- they will die. Most come in stressed and red from a combination of ammonia burn and cold temps.

Here is my first line of defense to acclimate and help my new betta to come around and at the same time, protect my collection from any bugs these newbies might have.

These are specially made tanks ( 48 inches X 10 X 8 high) and each one holds 7 breeder nets , one 100 wtt heater and one mini filter.
Every betta lives here for four weeks. During that time, they are rested, acclimated to my water conditions and fed well on live and frozen food ( vitamin fortified). From here they work their way into either the boy/girl barracks ( twenty gallon long tanks with eleven compartments, or benie babie box condos) or the 'love shack'. And a special few make it to the kitchen display tanks, the bedroom display tank or the den/greatroom display tank. JR

JPR
03-04-2006, 09:00 PM
That was the new girl import tanks- here are the boys--

JPR
03-04-2006, 09:01 PM
Check out this handsome dude!

JPR
03-04-2006, 09:03 PM
They like one another-- kinda like Roddy and I like one another! ;)

koidoc
03-04-2006, 09:29 PM
Yes Jim of course. As with any fish from guppy to whale they need Quarantine. Today I added one more tank with two dividers to add three more spaces in the kitchen. Now I have a total of 12 spaces. Three per tank and 4 tanks. This system will stay even after I get my rack system going with the 24 new tanks. Then we can move fish out in groups of three to show tanks depending on how many new come in and use the seperate tank systems for quarantine.
ALWAYS QUARANTINE
Do you use any meds like methylene blue routinely? What is your opinion of Almond leaves or Melaluca tea?

koidoc
03-04-2006, 09:32 PM
So Jim what are rays they talk about and what is ideal? Eight? Are rays the things we see on your orange red one in the blue rays in tail? I see eight rays then two long ones at each end of the 180 Degrees.

emmalou
03-04-2006, 09:51 PM
methylene blue


I use this for every new fish that comes in.is this correct?And JR.how is it that you can heat all tanks with one heater? I probably sound stupid....but how is your heat travelling? I like the setup again.........and I haven't got the community setup that you both do yet.so I haven;t had to QT.but I certainly do see where that would be a must.they are delicate.despite their name.I am lovin this thread! ;)

koidoc
03-04-2006, 10:00 PM
JR has one tank that has nets set inside for quarantine so one heater in the tank heats everything. His main display tanks have a compartment in the back where the water goes and then is feed back into each compartment. They have a common filter and the heater is in that compartment.
My display will have water feed to each 1 gallon unit and then the water overflows ach back to a 20gal tank with media. My heater will be in there. Then a submersible feeds my water return system to the tanks. So these 24 will have a common water system. The system I originaly showed was using 2 1/2 gal tanks with dividers and small filters. So just sets of three of the compartments have common water for Q-tank

allen42
03-04-2006, 10:24 PM
JR all I can say is WOW !! AWESOME FISH

Thanks to You & Art Both for adding SO muchto this thread !! I dont have ANY Betta's, My Mama always had 5 Bowls with some kind of plant in them , with a straw stuck in the plant that she feed the fish through , they seemed to do really well , Course after she passed away & the water changes stoped , they didnt last long in my daddys care

Again Thank JR & ART I have Really Enjoyed the Pics & Links & reading !!

koidoc
03-04-2006, 10:28 PM
Hey we are not dead yet. Much more to come and do not forget I am entering Goldfish Judging program.
I will still do Koi on the side with money left from Bettas.

JPR
03-04-2006, 11:19 PM
That's right Art- these is a 'transparent system'. The filter pack you see on the glass ( see the suction cups?) moves the water through, under and around the netted baskets. It also moves the heat around that is rising from the heater.

Art, I have used the leaves and it does stain the water. I've come to think about that technique in a similar way as the idea of adding salts to African chiclid water. I does condition things and makes the water parameters more betta friendly. But if you have soft to slightly hard water and your pH is reasonable, I'm not sure how much the leaves can help? I’ve seen a lot of Thai ideas coming into this hobby in the last two years.
As I've mentioned before, it is uncanny how the betta breeder thing matches up with the Japanese koi breeder thing. You can buy traditional nets, find out ways to match up Thai water and rice field water, keep the betta in traditional bowls and with traditional floating plants. The most famous breeders have an annual show in which they showcase their best. Its all kinda dejavou all over again! :)
I have a ton of duckweed and green cabomba ( From North Carolina) if you want any? If your light is strong, these plants will take off and sweeten the water - not the same as staining the water with leaves but still the fish in the tanks with plants seem to do better? I also like Java moss a lot but don’t have enough to spare at the moment.

koidoc
03-04-2006, 11:32 PM
Duckweed might block outward flow in rack system but might be OK in Q-tanks. How critcal is light with these fish if no plants. I wa not planing elaborate lighting on the stand. Just a battery powered flourescent for show. These fish seem to do OK in indirect light.
That BF looks similar to mine.

KoiKid
03-04-2006, 11:47 PM
You need to stop.... Now I want lots of bettas. :rolleyes: The fanciest thing I have is this little fella.... Mind breaking up the technical judge-to-judge talk for a spell and comment on him? :) If you can, he's very lively and I could not get a good shot of him... I just want to know if he's got any good points besides being a wonderful pet.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 12:11 AM
Hey Kid. How old are you?
This is a nice form of Crowntail. You can get these in pet stores. They are inexpensive and will live for about 1 year. Normally bought at 1 year old. Nice fish for home. It does not compete with other tailtypes and not the prefered type crown pattern. This is a red/green metallic CT. Good color for pet store.

aartwmich
03-05-2006, 06:15 AM
JPR thanks for the tutelage on the various types of bettas!

The high end fancy finned fishes that koidoc and JPR are showing here, are they in their 'fight' of 'display' mode or are the tails and fins normally extended like that?

Are you guys both using a sump type circulation system? Where is the sump container located vertically in relation to the divided tank? Koidoc metioned 1/4'' supply and 3/8'' gravity return. Here's a schematic is it accurate (other than the fact that the returns probably come out of the back of the tanks rather than the bottoms)? Where and what kind of filtration is there?

JPR
03-05-2006, 08:46 AM
Yep, these are all males in their display mode. You can see the ‘armor’ comes out in the form of raised shields created by the flaring gill plates. It makes it harder for the attacking fish to get to the pecs. I have a few GIANT plakat betta ( very large betta- one and a half to two times larger than an average HM) ) that LIVE to fight. I would never allow this, of course, and house them away from even being in the sight of another male ( except for some exercise now and then by putting their tanks next to another male). Its exhausting to even watch these fighters struggle to get at their enemy for hours and hours on in! The more domestic type fancy betta tends to be happy showing off to his opponent and during the macho dance. Although if allowed to be together they will rip each others fins to pieces! These Giants wish to only kill a rival male.



Rack or wall systems can have a sump at the base OR a reservoir at the top. The two key points in a rack system are :

1) make sure a sump system can accommodate ALL the water if the electricity were to go off! This is determined by where the over flow holes in each condo. My sumps appear to only be half full. But if the pump is shut off and all the condos drain, it becomes 3/4 full.

2) all sumps should have a bypass on the return. This bypass can pass through a UV or a FF if you like. But the point of having one is so that you can ‘balance’ the return of water to better match the right circulation requirement and desired water levels in the condos and also the sump.


This second point also brings up another need you have to consider:

Betta come from very slow moving water! They are not built to fight current! So water movement must be slow- very slow. Some breeders refer to these rack systems as drip systems ( now that is SLOW compared to what we want for koi and goldfish).
Bettas are also nest builders and their natural behavior when males are feeling happy and health is to build bubble nests at the surface. My ‘happiest bettas’ have rather cluttered water surfaces in their condos! Duckweed, a stryo coffee cup ( those mini cups cut in half longways) and ‘tons of suds’! In nature, these fish watch the surface most of the day and just wait for an insect or larva to drop in- gulp! I tell you all this so you can appreciate that a return should not be off the condo surface but better a combination of base and mid water pickup. If you design a DRIP system you can get away with a water surface skimming to the sump. But generally, a half inch below the surface or a half inch above the gravel ( remember point #1) is best for the natural behavior of betta. A fish that can’t build a nest is not a happy fish. Bettas are ruled by ‘ an urge to merge’! It has to do with their relatively short lives and even shorted reproductive time.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 09:26 AM
I think the half moons fins do stick out more than veiltails even in the non fighting mode. The rays are more erect and fins are out more. They are out even more when showing off. Yoy can tell in the pictures if in fighting mode by looking at the gill covers. If they are sticking out it is fighting mode. Down normal. Below is a picture of a male just nest building but not fighting.
Jim if yoy use a drip like I will use and a passive drain so you do not overflow tanks then how can you put the return 1/2" below surface. The water will run out faster than the drip and that will become the new surface level. I do not want to restrict returns or try to balance that or if not balanced the tanks overflow. I planned on passive returns that can handle drip or slightly faster flow if need to flush tank. Opposite corners but both set at surface like the halfmoon club set up you sent me. They do not need to nest that will stay. Nesting will be in seperate tanks with just sponge that turn off till fry can handle. Can always float things to slow surface movement.

JPR
03-05-2006, 11:45 AM
Hi Art, that fish is technically a MG ( mustard gas) BF. Or at least that is genetics that produced this look. As the gradient of color shifts these fish move from one description to another. The original variety was a green body with yellow fins and those tan tones. Here are some all from the same spawn- this gives you an idea of the shift in color.

The return side of your wall system should be able to be adjusted with both ball value and bypass I described. This is how it MUST Be anyway, if you think about it– If you counted on overflow alone to regulate the system the sump would either over fill or the pump would drain the sump faster than it could come back to the sump! So the pump is the thing that needs to be regulated. It will be near impossible to size the pump perfectly to the size of your system. So the ball value ( in main return) and the bypass ( a tee off from the main return who’s function is to return some water directly to the sump usually in a TT style delivery)

emmalou
03-05-2006, 11:50 AM
JR.those last fish are stunning.......I will have to dedicate next week to getting a betta wall going in here.....

Aartwich.lol.........thanks for the diagram ;)

JPR
03-05-2006, 11:58 AM
addition-- Art, those betta wall system pictures that I sent you that you posted ( the ones here on page two I think) are from a Halfmoon club member's system. You can see that the line is very small.
also, don't be fooled by systems that are meant for juvenile grow out ( under 3 months of age) and those meant for adults.
In Thailand, by the way, they use mostly rubbermaid livestock tanks for growing out spawns. They are loaded with plants. I've also seen these very large concert planters ( large circles the size of a 5 foot show tank, also filled with plants).
I imagine the fish eat mosquito larva all day and all night long?! It is pretty hard to keep up with that. I can tell you that in spring, I'm pretty busy collecting mosquito larva, termites ( yep termites! Fatty little buggers) for 100 plus hungry mouths! But there is NO food like LIVE food!
By the way, in case you haven't noticed. This fish pictures on these auction sights are taken with very close lens. When you get them you realize that these are very young fish- usually three and a half months old. If you get a large one- it is usually an older breeder that the breeder is moving out in favor of teh younger generation. So great bargins, but you must breed them right away as they may only have 6 months left of active life.

JPR
03-05-2006, 12:02 PM
Thanks Emmalou. All the pictures I post are my fish. Some are from the original breeder pictures and some are from my camera. Love sharing them with you. Those brothers I just posted, are busy buildng nests and one has had his first 'date'. No eggs yet as he doesn't know if he wants to chase the female away or invite her in? ( a lot like teenage love I think?;)) At any rate, I hope for a spawn any day now.

emmalou
03-05-2006, 12:04 PM
I didn't realize that they enjoyed plants.......hard to achieve if you don't have the lighting to keep them ......

Sugarloafkoi
03-05-2006, 12:04 PM
When I grow up I want to be a Koi judge. You guys have way too much time! Those are out of this world.
Matt

KoiKid
03-05-2006, 12:23 PM
Art- I'm 13. Thanks for the comments on him. Do you have a website or an Aquabid account? I'm sorry if it's been said already, I miss things easily.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 12:25 PM
See many times they call the top one Blue Mustard Gas for sure. I see the bottom one called Yellow Purple BF OHM.
You lost me on the bypass thing. They can't overflow or drain. No matter what the tanks stay at the same level since inlet and outlet are at same level. The water going into tank can not go in too fast because each tank has a drip emitter that can adjust from one drop to 2gph. It goes from 1/2" line at sump, up to the shelf heights then is reduced down to 1/2" to 1/4" and t'd off to each tank. The emitters are attached at the inlet. Yes I will need a bypass to take pressure off the pump when I have the drips set to keep it from burning up. I got a 700 gph Mag Pump but the gph falls way down with head pressure. That would be 6' in the current system. This system can have 8 more tanks added if I go to top. As far as overflow it is at surface level so it can not drain tank down. It can not oveflow since I went to a larger 3/8" line going out. So tanks should always stay at same level and if evaporate the sump will change. Add new water at sump. Make sense. So no balance to tanks just set flow rate and T off excess pressure from sump.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 12:28 PM
At 13. Shouldn't you be out playin with girls or something. Fish are for us old people. Glad you like them
The Aquabid link is
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?=100=115=120&1&cg
Then click on halfmoon or yours is crowntail

JPR
03-05-2006, 01:00 PM
Right Art, so one is a genetic description and the other is a 'pop description' based on color present. This is kinda like the confusion among beginners between sanke and showa,. we can tell genetically which variety it is regardless of how much sumi we see. Beginners might determine which variety based solely on sumi amounts and sumi locations on the body.
these are all genetically MG BFs.

For us to get on the same page on this rack circulation thing, we need to nail down some goals. I see that you are seeing the 'Wall' just like an oceanic off-the-shelf-overflow system.
The 'Wall' is and it isn't. That is specifically why I posted that paragraph about the needs and likes of bettas.
Those Oceanic and all marine tank designs make one major assumption that works with marine fish and most tropicals- massive water turnover. The throat on the gravity side is wide open. There is no limitation. You then move onto how many times you want to turn the water over based on pump rating and return pipe limitations ( pipe size and outlet numbers). This works great for rapid turn over systems. I use it myself on my 180 gal. and 120 gal.and designed my own after trial and error for the big 600gal and my 400gal. No problem with rapid design systems for these fish.
In your wall system you are going to find several anomalies, the biggest being, the return lines will return more water to the lower and to the first condos than the higher and far side condos. This is were ball value adjustments come in. If you allow complete open throat gravity sides and return water with no real limitation, you will not have the balance you are looking for in terms of water turn over- it will be too fast and not at all what the fish will like. So I would suggest you listen to that old song- “slow down, your mov’en too fast— “ when it comes to these betta systems. In the end, both designs are better than vases! Just a reminder to anyone reading this- you MUST quarantine all fish before adding them to this wall system as all the fish are sharing the same water even though they appear to be separated.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 01:15 PM
So those fish to me are a sibling pair or purple BF HM with a nice 8 ray female.
It seems you are still assuming that the returns are open systems but in my case each tank has its own valve so all tanks will get the same drip. I may need to open the drip valve wider on the top row to get the same drip. I would not need a bypass valve on each row since I have valve on each tank. Just a bypass at the sump to relieve excess pressure so the lines do not blow off
As long as I have a valve at each tank how can they be different. This is like Tprs on a koi pond. If no valves the TPR's closest to the pump get mpre pressure but if each TPR has a valve then you can adjust the closest ones more and open the furthest ones more. Are we losing each other.

JPR
03-05-2006, 02:53 PM
Not at all. We'll revisit the subject after you have completed the project.
Yep, sibling pair - mucho rays. Male is just a baby- more finnage to come.
JR

JPR
03-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Hey Art, check out this- an 'ULTRA ray' female red- and she has eggs! JR

JPR
03-05-2006, 03:14 PM
And HER sister! ;) JR

emmalou
03-05-2006, 03:30 PM
Man...they are huge those females......Now.do you introduce the male????

DarleneD
03-05-2006, 04:01 PM
Thanks Emmalou. All the pictures I post are my fish. Some are from the original breeder pictures and some are from my camera. Love sharing them with you. Those brothers I just posted, are busy buildng nests and one has had his first 'date'. No eggs yet as he doesn't know if he wants to chase the female away or invite her in? ( a lot like teenage love I think?;)) At any rate, I hope for a spawn any day now.
What kind of nests do they build, and is there a certain time you introduce nest building materials?

JPR
03-05-2006, 04:17 PM
The males have to be introduced to the females slowly. If they see the gal as just another betta they will hurt her. So you place the bride in a clear beanie babie type plastic box ( 4 x 4 X 8) and place that into the males ten gallon tank. The male is already living in that tank , has built a nest and is ready for nest guarding duties. The male needs nothing to build the nest. But since the bubble nest is built out of bubbles that he makes with his mouth, they are constantly dissolving and popping. To help, you keep a cover on the tank ( temp and humidity) and you provide a stryo coffee cup ( the tiny kind) cut longways. This cup acts a floating shelter. The java moss, duck weed and a strand of cabomba also provide support. The water movement, especially at the surface must be almost nil.
So when the groom sees the bride, he goes nuts. He chases and scares the scales off her! But if she is ripe with eggs ( you can see a tiny pearl at her vent), an amazing thing happens- her body becomes covered with darker vertical lines! This is a sign that She likes him! So you release the girl into the tank and a dance of sorts begins. It is a chase and a mock waving like movement. The male seduces her to come over to the nest. There they embrace and they remain frozen and floating in that embrace for seconds to minutes at a time. Soon eggs are released and the male releases the female and races to catch the now fertilized eggs in his mouth. He blows bubbles, and one by one, he embeds the egg within the floating bubble nest. This is repeated over and over until the female is spent. It is best to remove the female at this point as he will not have the same 'feelings' for her in a short while ( Men!). ;)

JPR
03-05-2006, 04:24 PM
Another super ray female that will hopefully become the bedrock of my blue line.

DarleneD
03-05-2006, 04:32 PM
The males have to be introduced to the females slowly. If they see the gal as just another betta they will hurt her. So you place the bride in a clear beanie babie type plastic box ( 4 x 4 X 8) and place that into the males ten gallon tank. The male is already living in that tank , has built a nest and is ready for nest guarding duties. The male needs nothing to build the nest. But since the bubble nest is built out of bubbles that he makes with his mouth, they are constantly dissolving and popping. To help, you keep a cover on the tank ( temp and humidity) and you provide a stryo coffee cup ( the tiny kind) cut longways. This cup acts a floating shelter. The java moss, duck weed and a strand of cabomba also provide support. The water movement, especially at the surface must be almost nil.
So when the groom sees the bride, he goes nuts. He chases and scares the scales off her! But if she is ripe with eggs ( you can see a tiny pearl at her vent), an amazing thing happens- her body becomes covered with darker vertical lines! This is a sign that She likes him! So you release the girl into the tank and a dance of sorts begins. It is a chase and a mock waving like movement. The male seduces her to come over to the nest. There they embrace and they remain frozen and floating in that embrace for seconds to minutes at a time. Soon eggs are released and the male releases the female and races to catch the now fertilized eggs in his mouth. He blows bubbles, and one by one, he embeds the egg within the floating bubble nest. This is repeated over and over until the female is spent. It is best to remove the female at this point as he will not have the same 'feelings' for her in a short while ( Men!). ;)
Holy cow! Those girls make the guys work for it! :cool:

koidoc
03-05-2006, 04:50 PM
Jim here is a picture of the bypass of my pump at the beginning to take left over pressure off the pump. Also picture of the valve mounted on back of each tank that screws to tank in 10/32" thread with silicone. From this bypass here, it goes up to shelves via 1/2" and then at tees to each shelf down to 1/4" then to valves at each tank to adjust so they all are the same.
You will have to help me with females after system up. Could have space for 44 fish and a few tanks for breeding.

emmalou
03-05-2006, 05:17 PM
Long ago and far away
I had a breeding pair of bettas...mutts.I had the female in the big tank :rolleyes: and had the male in the smaller submersible one.....I was so freaked out when she got her stripes.lol....but it is a facinating courtship to be sure.when they embrace.it's like a dance really.he lets her go.and she just kinda....falls slowly........ I was not up on the how to's back then.they did have fry.I did take the female out....three days later took the male out.and then because the tank was only room temp.they all died. Definately something to see though.
Art.keep posting those pictures of your setup.

JPR
03-05-2006, 05:51 PM
Emmalou, it was once believed that the tank must remain covered while the fry develop their breathing organ or they would die. No one knows if that is ultimately true except to say that many do not cover the fry and trap a 'vapor' zone of warm air at the waters surface and the fry still do fine. It comes down to heat and the right starter food ( always live food- Vinegar worms and brine shrimp ). After that, a low bacteria and fungal count in the water. Sweet, aged live water is best. JR

JPR
03-05-2006, 05:51 PM
Looking good Art! ;) JR

emmalou
03-05-2006, 06:16 PM
THis is how long ago it was JR.the food that was supposed to be fed to the fry was egg yolk.....talk about a mess.and a stink........ I have fresh frozen food in my freezer for all my fish....the bettas get bloodworms and tubiflex...What are vinegar worms?

JPR
03-05-2006, 07:39 PM
Yep, I remember the egg yolk suggestion! Vinegar worms are very tiny worms that make a good first food. If your spawn in born in spring, you can set up 'green' water in your yard. It will be infested with daphnia and other tiny micro organiisms twithin a few weeks that are great as a first food. You work your way up to brine shrine hatchlings after about ten days depending on water temps.
You can buy both grindle worm and vinegar worm cultures on line and they are easy to keep going. Buy one for 'now feeding' and another as a source for additional home cultures. In a few months I will have a bumper crop and offer them to you for cost of mailing. JR

JPR
03-05-2006, 07:48 PM
This is my super duper 'ham bone' OHM showing off his magificant finnage!

Art, GC material?

koidoc
03-05-2006, 08:17 PM
I love it Jim. Now would this have Orchid in the Description.

KoiKid
03-05-2006, 08:20 PM
At 13. Shouldn't you be out playin with girls or something. Fish are for us old people. Glad you like them
The Aquabid link is
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?=100=115=120&1&cg
Then click on halfmoon or yours is crowntail :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I am a girl. And fish make MUCH better companions than most people, video games, or attractive members of the opposite sex. :D: Thanks for the link.... But do you have an account there?

JPR- Thanks for the pics. Keep 'em coming! Maybe someday I'll have bettas like that. (Maybe if we win the lottery. :rolleyes: ) I'll ask you a question. Should bloodworms or brine shrimp be fed to a betta regularly?

gander
03-05-2006, 08:23 PM
While I dont have any bettas and can not stand to see them in their little cups in stores, I have enjoyed looking at the beautiful fish you have brought to this thread, thanks for showing them. gary

Cowiche Ponder
03-05-2006, 08:30 PM
JR that is a FEMALE?? wow!! where is your new betta web page for the babies you will sell?? :D:q

koidoc
03-05-2006, 08:35 PM
Great Koi Kid.Don't 13 old girls play with other girls anymore. Nice to have hobbies. They can follow you for a lifetime. Most people at 13 do not look to others for information since they know everything, which means you are smarter than most. I am pretty sure JR feeds live or frozen every day to condition for breeding. If breeding must feed meat.

JPR
03-05-2006, 08:38 PM
Art, you are heading for an IBC judging certification! wanta do it? Guess who can get us in- Alan Hobron! True! He is a certified judge in the south eastern district ( Florida!)

Hey kid! Thanks! Here's how you can become a buyer of fish like this- go to college and major in Accounting and get your C.P.A.. Then get your MBA in finance ( five year program with your undergrad degree) and then a law degree. Study tax accounting and securites litigation. You should come out and ask for 150 K a year minimum. After five years you should be making around $250K. In ten years there is no reason why you shouldn't be making 400K. At that point, think about your Uncle JR---

Blood worms and brine shrimp ( live or frozen) can be the basic diet as bettas are pure meat eaters like velaso raptors! You can use the betta pellets from Hikkari but only as a filler. If you really want to make those bettas excellent, go on a hike with your dad or mom or grand dad and take along a hammer and a jar. Use the back of the hammer ( Claw) to open up rotten logs and take out the white termites you find there. Its good excerice and great quality time with your family. Your betta will really appreciate it. You and Grand ma can also set out a trash can lid with water in it. Collect the mosquito larva every day- this is not a good thing to do if you think you will miss even a day as you will be contributing to the mosquito population if you miss. But if you collect them everyday you will actually be reducing the mosquito population!
Gather those rose buds while ye may---

Uncle Jim

JPR
03-05-2006, 08:45 PM
Art, here is an interesting breeding. This is a cross between your MG BF type and an all black fish called a melano. This is also a metallic fish so it becomes a MG black copper HM. Not as striking as some of the others but very subtle beauty. JR

koidoc
03-05-2006, 08:45 PM
Hey what about a dentist? We have a higher earning potential than doctors now due to less malpractice. Or be like Uncle Lester and retire at age 56. I do not know if I can do three fish judging programs but tempted. Hey there is a good show in Philadelphia in June but I will be in Washington. Darn.

gander
03-05-2006, 08:47 PM
Hey what about a dentist? We have a higher earning potential than doctors now due to less malpractice. Or be like Uncle Lester and retire at age 56. I do not know if I can do three fish judging programs but tempted. Hey there is a good show in Philadelphia in June but I will be in Washington. Darn.
Youo got that wrong Art Uncle Lester retired at age 35.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 08:48 PM
Nice, I see the mustard. I saw some solid black melano bettas in Florida breeder close to Lester.
We joining IBC? Get Flare mag.

koidoc
03-05-2006, 08:50 PM
Which Lester?

Ronin-Koi
03-05-2006, 08:52 PM
Hey, a month ago, it was "This is not Koiphen.com, this is Goldfishphen.com." This week, it is not goldfish forum, but betta forum. LOL... You guys are wild, just like them fish.

What is next? Fresh water Rays! I like em.

- Wayne, enjoying the exposure to a betta hobby that he did not understand.

JPR
03-05-2006, 08:54 PM
And here is darth Vadar. This is a like a black cloud in the show tank. JR

KoiKid
03-05-2006, 08:54 PM
JR and Art- Thanks! You guys ROCK! Though I think I will stick to my hopes of us winning the lottery... The chances of that, however, are further reduced by the fact that the parents don't gamble. The two of you have really inspired me to dive back into this hobby. Heck, maybe I'll even get a betta worth more than $5 someday! :D:

Oh and JR- That black betta is awesome! :yes: I've always liked black bettas. I'm interested in buying it from you, do you accept pocket lint? :rolleyes: :D: :D: :D:

JPR
03-05-2006, 09:07 PM
Cat, That is my daughter's nickname , by the way- Caitlin = Cat. Here's some contrast for you---

KoiKid
03-05-2006, 09:35 PM
Oh my gosh! That is quite the difference! It appears that it's easier to breed a "pure" white betta than a "pure black" betta. I once read somewhere that you could never breed a betta that was the black of a black molly, it would always have a slight "hint" of another color (I would say that in the case of your Darth Vader his "hint" color would be purple :thinking: ) but still be classified as black.

I love them both! Their color and the overal difference between them is beautiful. How about both of them for 2 pocketfulls of lint? :D: :D: :D: :D: :D: :p:

aartwmich
03-06-2006, 05:17 AM
I love all this information, and the fish are stunning!

BAKA
03-07-2006, 08:07 PM
Beautiful Betta!!! :)

emmalou
03-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Yep, that black is a stunner.........

Thanks for the info on the worms JR. I don't know if they would make the long trip here though. Here's a question.....If have hens.and in the coop when I clean it out..I have peat moss as a base, then w hite shavings.then the poop. In this mess are millions of tiny white squigglers....would it be appropriate to feed them these..? I wouldn't be sure exactly how to wash the worms.lol...this is sounding gross.......

Noahsnana
03-08-2006, 12:18 AM
Yep, that black is a stunner.........

Thanks for the info on the worms JR. I don't know if they would make the long trip here though. Here's a question.....If have hens.and in the coop when I clean it out..I have peat moss as a base, then w hite shavings.then the poop. In this mess are millions of tiny white squigglers....would it be appropriate to feed them these..? I wouldn't be sure exactly how to wash the worms.lol...this is sounding gross.......
:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

emmalou
03-08-2006, 01:10 AM
:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: If you don;t know .ask.right? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

JPR
03-08-2006, 08:25 AM
. Wow! Tiny worms! You know how to get to a guy!!!! ;) You sweet talker, you! I LIVE for good sources of worms! How about a chicken forum! LOLs
So your worms interest me!! I suspect they are grindel worms. They would have to be put in ‘clean media’ for a while but what a great source! You lucky girl!


The worms that work best are:

1) vinegar worms for fry
Grindel worms for older fry ( along with live baby brine shrimp)

2) blood worms ( frozen) be careful many people are highly allergic to the protein
a) hikari frozen is actually another subspecies of bloodworm and is also vitamin
enriched. These are smaller than our bloodworms and about the size of
tubifex worms
b) other frozen brands of blood worms- robust and only for adult fish

3) not worms but --
Mosquito larva frozen - black mosquito larva larger and meaty
- white mosquito larva smaller and delicate in structure

4) glass worms frozen- for adults. OK but fish to attack them as eagerly as blood worms for some reason? If you can get live glass worms it is entirely a different subject- they LOVE them. Actually anything that 'moves' is taken with great enthusiasm

5) tubiflex worms- some say they are too covered with bacteria to feed safely? They do come from cesspools!!! But if kept well washed under a dripping fauct, I think they are OK but maybe not so practical except as a treat or variety in the general diet.

6) other live foods and frozen foods-
Daphnia
Fruit flies ( cultures are easy to grow- wingless only please ;))
Cyclops ( I like frozen cyclopezz - good rich fortified stuff for young bettas!

Just keep in mind that betta are not koi . They are meat eaters.

emmalou
03-08-2006, 09:46 AM
Wow! Tiny worms! You know how to get to a guy!!!! You sweet talker, you! I LIVE for good sources of worms! How about a chicken forum! LOLs
So your worms interest me!! I suspect they are grindel worms. They would have to be put in ‘clean media’ for a while but what a great source! You lucky girl!

Lol.so its tweezer time? How am I going to get them into clean media...? They are sooo small.........it would take me years to pick them out of the mix. Leaf mulch perhaps........and some spoonfuls of the manure media to feed them.......yikes.

Cowiche Ponder
03-08-2006, 10:03 AM
Wow! Tiny worms! You know how to get to a guy!!!! You sweet talker, you! I LIVE for good sources of worms! How about a chicken forum! LOLs
So your worms interest me!! I suspect they are grindel worms. They would have to be put in ‘clean media’ for a while but what a great source! You lucky girl!

Lol.so its tweezer time? How am I going to get them into clean media...? They are sooo small.........it would take me years to pick them out of the mix. Leaf mulch perhaps........and some spoonfuls of the manure media to feed them.......yikes.

Gail you have a whole new thriving business on the edge of discovery!! :rofl:

koidoc
03-08-2006, 10:57 AM
Jim
Will my new arrivals take cyclopeez or daphnia or are they past that into Mosquito white and adult brine. Baby Betta will take live baby right away? How old till go to cyclopees?

emmalou
03-08-2006, 11:16 AM
Gail you have a whole new thriving business on the edge of discovery!! :rofl:
:sick: :sick: I don't know Mary...lol......

JPR
03-08-2006, 01:16 PM
Hi Art, depending on what kind of shape they arrive in, you can try the frozen blood worms from hikari first. Some of the fish that come in will be surprising small compared to the impression they left on you from the photos on the auction site. So full sized blood worms might be a bit too big unless you purchased fish over three and a half months of age. And depending on whether or not you bought sibling females? They are sometimes tiny. So here is 'plan B' which has saved bettas that would have otherwise died on me) -- IF you bought young females or small males OR if they arrive beaten up and cold, you want to offer them live baby brine the first few days so they don't loose their strength and die on you. You will see even reluctant feeders tempted to peck at the almost invisible pink dots moving around their face. This all assumes you have them acclimated, settled and warm ( 84 F initially and lowered to 78-79 after about a week). Hope this helps. JR

JPR
03-08-2006, 01:31 PM
Art, as an aside, don't be put off if the fish arrive and are young ( 3-3 1/2 months) as that is the time to sell them. Think of them as tosai. They grow like weeds however if fed twice a day and kept in good water. I have had fish triple in size in 4 months! It is really remarkable to see a tiny fully formed male expand from silver dollar size to 'almost' coaster size in less than ten months.

koidoc
03-08-2006, 06:03 PM
Hey Jim,
Just plugged in 4 -25watt heaters in the 4 Q-tanks. Adjust to 84. I could not find Hikari Blood worms. I found Hikari tubifex. Also have brine, Whit Mosquito, baby brine,daphnia, Cyclopees. What is the best of these for the new guys. Only have two days before we leave for Cal. Not ideal. And no body to watch. Want to house sit Jim. Send Caitlin down.

JPR
03-08-2006, 10:05 PM
Ok, so you will need to experiment. In a case like this you usually want to go with a food the fish are at least familiar with. At least for the first few important days when they will be weak and need the protein nutrition. I really like the cyclopees and betta learn to take it rapidly but for instant recognition I'd try the mosquito larva- "the universal bug!" Wish you lived closer, I'd gladly come over and look in on things. JR

koidoc
03-08-2006, 10:10 PM
Why do tank raised fish need to see natural food. This seems to be like the discussion on Discus food years ago when all adults were wild vs today when all are tank raised. The new discus take more food.
White Mosquito Larvae seems big to me for these fish as opposed to Daphnia. That is what I would have guessed baswed on size and natural. Curious

DarleneD
03-08-2006, 10:19 PM
How is white mosquito larvae different from "regular"?

JPR
03-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Those bettas you are getting are raised outside. Here is the kinda set up they are produced from---

JPR
03-08-2006, 10:29 PM
The white mosquito larve is definitely larger than daphnia but the fish recognize it as a food item easily and it is very soft bodied. You will see them take it in their mouths and some of it will be sticking out - but they will chew it and inhale the rest. Betta have very sharp teeth! In factif you feed the large frozen bloodworms and dip in a piece so that 'worm ends' dangle in the water like fishing lures, a big male will strike and hang on! It is like getting a fighting fish on a fishing line- you can really feel the tugging- tuff little buggers! JR

DarleneD
03-08-2006, 10:37 PM
I've never seen white larvae for sale from my normal suppliers. I'll have to keep an eye out. I'm sure my goldies would like some for a treat!

koidoc
03-08-2006, 10:40 PM
I get White in frozen cubes and my Goldies love it.

JPR
03-08-2006, 10:43 PM
A new spawn of Betta kids. These are from Rainnybetta and quality betta in Thailand.

koidoc
03-08-2006, 10:47 PM
These fry yours. I have bettas coming from these people. They were very nice to deal with and I wait to see how much they look like picture. No not size.

JPR
03-09-2006, 06:58 AM
Morning Art, no this picture is from Rainny. I can snap some pictures of mine if like?
He is one of the better breeders for the last seven years or so. This is their lavander strain. All in all, I have found the Thai breeders to be nicer to deal with than the Japanese breeders- they are just friendlier and very open. They do resemble Japanese breeders in that they love to talk about their fish- I guess passion is passion no matter what the country! JR

JPR
03-09-2006, 08:26 AM
Missed a question - what is the difference between white and black mosquito larva? Well--- one is white and the other is black! ;)

OK wise cracks aside and out of the system, white larva is just a subspecies of that nasty little bug. It is clear and often tiny. But then again depending on manufacturer and time of the year, they can be larger!! I've not done any reseach into the nuttitional value of one verse the other but if they are like other larval forms, and I suspect they are, the age and stage of the larva dictates the real difference in fat vs protein content. Typically, a younger stage is fattier and as they age towards the next stage of development they become 'less fat' and more protein packed. The key for Art here is that they are very soft bodied and easily torn apart by betta and additionally the betta seem to recognize them as an 'old friend' --errr aaa-- snack! JR

DarleneD
03-09-2006, 09:49 AM
Where do you buy your frozen foods?

JPR
03-09-2006, 11:37 AM
HI Miss D, I buy my frozen stuff when I see it!!! I cruise a few stores in the area and also always check out new ones when I see an opening notice. I recently found one for instance, that is privately owned but is the size of a 'super highway store'. Their, I found all brands of Bloodworms at 1/3 to 1/2 the price of what I was paying! I picked up a second package of blood worms ( 16 ounce I think??) for 8.95 that I had just paid 14.99 for at another store! So short answer- I shop it! ;)

koidoc
03-09-2006, 03:07 PM
Yes the White looks like empty glass shrimp carcases and soft. I buy frozen now from Drs. Foster, Smith site.

koidoc
03-09-2006, 05:46 PM
This thread just will not die. Long live, short lived bettas.

JPR
03-09-2006, 05:53 PM
Perhaps more pictures? LOLs

JPR
03-09-2006, 05:58 PM
Bright baby

JPR
03-09-2006, 06:01 PM
True red- very young male.

JPR
03-09-2006, 06:04 PM
Standard lavender

JPR
03-09-2006, 06:05 PM
new male from Thailand

koidoc
03-09-2006, 06:32 PM
Oh please Jim, we love pictures here on Koiphen from the Betta Master. Or is that the Master Betta.
My next buys will be females, MG, Melano BF,Solid White, White with light blue fins. Got any of these or what good females look like. Is there a good body shape for females that make them good for genetics beside color and fins. Skinny or more Plakat type? Still can't find info on how to count these rays.

emmalou
03-09-2006, 06:37 PM
Oh.,that solid blue is a knockout.........I started picking out worms from the manure.........figured pictures werent' needed :sick: I picked for about an hour.ended up with alot of worms....I tossed them in some garden mulch in a plastic tub....I don;t know if this media will keep them alive? Seeing as they are in poo now.... :sick: will the mulch have what they need? Would I need to add some nitrogen.as the manure is loaded with it.

koidoc
03-09-2006, 06:39 PM
Do we need a MANURE sub-forum.

emmalou
03-09-2006, 06:39 PM
Do we need a MANURE sub-forum.
Yes. :eek:

koidoc
03-09-2006, 07:56 PM
YOU KNOW WHAT THAT WOULD BE FULL OF. I know a few people that can post there.

WA Monkey
03-09-2006, 08:45 PM
I want one really bad ,

koiingaround
03-10-2006, 07:25 AM
But here is a close second!

Holey Betta!!! :eek: I never knew these fish could get this beautiful!!! :cool:

JR a picture of your set~up of tanks would be wonderful!!! :yes:

JanT
03-10-2006, 08:53 AM
Jim, these are the most beautiful bettas I have ever seen. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:53 AM
Thanks Jan, This is my 'second' hobby. Koiing, I posted a picture of the Qtank set ups a few pages back. My barracks set ups are numerous with a few variations-- Most are twenty gallon tanks with breeder nets in them ( eight to a 20 L tank with one divider in them so each system houses 10 males. The variation is a little expensive but works well- a 20 L with ten standard microscreen dividers in them ( caution this has to be retro-ed into the tanks frame or the fish will eventually find a way to slip through).
Each of these systems has its own heater and filtration. If you can't picture these, I'll snap a few pictures for you this weekend.
The system that Art posted is from a site that refined the original wall system into something a little more nice to view in its uniformity. The knock on these systems is that your whole collection is in contact with one and another and therefore, a potential disease epidemic. Although this is wrong headed in its thinking, lack of quarantine has proven this can and has happened. So I have a half constructed 2 1/2 gallon wall system partly completed and I'm not sure if I will ever finish it the way I had originally designed it?
The ultimate system is the kitchen wall system. I am actually doing the third in a series of changes to it. It is eight feet long and holds only 12 male bettas. It also holds 99 gallons of water! I'm experimenting with plant types and filter designs in teh rear compartment which is more than half the water volume.. I'll post pictures once the system is refilled after the last changes to the false rear panels.
JR

JPR
03-10-2006, 11:33 AM
New betta strain from Wasan. She is getting conditioned as we speak. I hope to raise her spawn outdoors this spring, with supplementary heat in a rubbermaid tub. JR

koidoc
03-10-2006, 12:02 PM
Bettas just arrived and floated for 1 hour. Now in cups with small additions of water over next 3 hours. This is my quarantine system. 4 tanks with filters and heaters.

emmalou
03-10-2006, 12:06 PM
Art..thats an easy QT! Looking forward to seeing them in their tanks.How do they look after their travels?

koidoc
03-10-2006, 12:12 PM
Came through great. Great transhipper had them for a few days in Colorado. Came with heat pack. They were in better shape in the box than those ones in the bowls at pet store. Take 4 hours to acclimate.

emmalou
03-10-2006, 12:21 PM
Thats great news.........

DarleneD
03-10-2006, 04:30 PM
Can't wait to see pictures of the new guys!

koidoc
03-10-2006, 05:10 PM
Sorry, Got them all in tanks and put in 1/3 dose Methylene blue. It perked them right up. They all are eating and had some brine shrimp for lunch. One of the breeders even gave me an extra one because he thought one did not look so good I bought but it looks fine. The extra he gave me is better than the one he was replacing. I took a picture of it since it was different before the methylene blue. The others I have pictures for. Jim had be scared that these were all going to be small but most are larger than a silver dollar. They are wonderful. Need a wall and some girls now. Extra.

emmalou
03-10-2006, 05:27 PM
Good dealer! I just bought another ten gallon tank.going to do side by side 10 gallons.being fed by a 30 gallon barrel..bought some thin plastic stuff.the kind that you would use for flourescent kitchen lights....but it was flimsy and to brittle.I wish that eggcrate plastic came with smaller holes.that would be ideal........so now I will have to figure out what to use as a divider...so there will be ten bettas in each tank.....I have the sub heater......filtration will be a Top Fin Power 40, should be sufficient? I will be tweaking it daily I am sure.lol....Bought that Python thing as well today.so changes will be much easier on my hardwood floor!

JPR
03-10-2006, 05:50 PM
Yep, You are going to find that the breeders get more involved and are more free to replace and give extra siblings than koi breeders. I guess a lot of this comes down to the value of each piece ( koi vs betta) but the Thai breeders are a pleasure to work with so far. Can't wait to have a beer with a few of them on their home turf! How do you say cheers in Thai?!
Art, the tri color looks very good! JR

koidoc
03-10-2006, 06:12 PM
Thanks Jim
Emmalou remember you need to quarantine these fish different from these 10gal tanks if these are the final display tanks. My tanks hold three fish each so I can buy in multiples up to twelve. Then after 1 month I can move them to the new wall system yet to be built. Are you going to try that Northwest Betta in B.C.?
Wish I was in Florida now? Do good breeders down there. If you can save shipping that is half the price of the fish.

koiingaround
03-10-2006, 07:10 PM
WOW!!! If I keep reading this thread you guys and Gail are going to have me hooked!!!

I was looking at the links you attached here and saw this one and thought it was pretty...
Am I right or wrong???
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/fwbettashm1142004751.jpg

JPR
03-10-2006, 08:21 PM
Well being a purist at heart, I really like the idea of buying from the ultimate source- the Thai guys ( and some 'gals' actually) that produced this fish generations ago! The way it works in Thailand is the breeders sell off or give stock to relatives to sell so that the family can profit from the skill of the gifted member. Some of the breeding stock can sell for $400 a pair within the community. The fish that are produced are graded and wholesaled or retailed. So what we are seeing represent the very best that three generations can produce. JR

PHPong
03-10-2006, 09:50 PM
Mine are just the cheap ones and I love them they have so much character.

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Here is a typical holding barracks for males as described in previous post--

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:24 PM
Another angle

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:25 PM
The reason I use this design is that it is very easy to feed the bettas ( I have over 100) and also it is an easy system to service. JR

koidoc
03-10-2006, 10:46 PM
Jim what do you use for a cover on that. Can't they jump. Now this is just Q-tank. I want to see display tanks

koidoc
03-10-2006, 10:47 PM
Yes that is a good one. I believe they call that a Copper Melano OHM. Did I get it right Jim?

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:47 PM
red is red

JPR
03-10-2006, 10:49 PM
Blue butterfly

emmalou
03-10-2006, 11:19 PM
Jr and Art.I bought a cage like you showed JR...It is in my ten gal now....is this the way to go instead of sectioned them off with individual plastic? They cost me about 5 bucks each.which is ok,,,so I can get 6 in a ten gallon..that is heated and aerated....THose clips are a A^$&$*^%.they are not meant for lipped tanks.

aartwmich
03-11-2006, 08:49 AM
Is the mesh in these 'cells' really open enough to allow water circulation? I would think you'd want something more open for circulation as well as to let the poop out of the individual 'cells'. But maybe these guys don't like alot of flow and that's why the mesh is tighter?

Maybe also extend the uptake tube on the filter so it draws from the end of the tank opposite the hanging filter box? I see that the tank itself has a divider, is it removable, mesh or solid?

Thinking too much :rolleyes: I ALWAYS wonder WHY :thinking:

Oh yeah...is that thick dark line running along the bottom of the cells just a shadow?

JPR
03-11-2006, 09:08 AM
Good morning!

Right, the mess is rather fine. And the idea is not necessarily to create 'complete' filtration as we do in fish tanks or koi ponds but rather to move heated water and some modest circulation. You are right in guessing that bettas don't like current very much.
These tanks still need weekly water changes and the netted enclosures do indeed trap waste within themselves. But ammonia readings ( remember, that is on the level of the molecule) are always non detectable. A python is used to clean the bottom and do a water change at the same time. And the filters are filled with activated carbon that is allowed to become biologically active as well- so it is pretty old! Also do realize that this system holds 10 betta. That's ten betta in 20 gallons of filtered water! Low low biomass for volume. When the duckweed, Java moss and cabomba are added, this is very 'sweet' water. If you want to go all out, use the almond leave teabags and now you have water like Thailand's water.
The tube on the outside filter is positioned to take in water surrounding the heater and move it around the tank, as well as filter inorganics. Organics are then managed with maintenance and organic build up is minimal ( not like koi or goldfish! In comparison, bettas a very clean meat eaters)
Interesting point- the divider you see dead center in the 20 L is a way to make two more compartments for betta. So you see eight nets pens and two sections with that tank for a total of 10 compartments. The surface water within the nets is slower that the surface water in the two large compartments created by the divider. Yet the activity level, desire to ‘play and display’ and the appetites of all ten betta are typically identical. A check of temperatures shows that the ‘zones’ within these different compartments is within one degree. So I think these things all imply that the ‘effect’ of filtration and design is universal throughout.

JR


PS- the dark line on the bottom of the nets is a shadow from the flash on the camera

JPR
03-11-2006, 09:16 AM
Morning Art, close enough on the naming. The OHM is spot on. The variation in orchid group is down to color influences and metallic traits. Like the MGs we talked about a few pages ago in this thread, you have identifiable types and then gradations leading to confusion with other color/pattern types. When you get into breeding ask the breeders for females that throw many types or varieties, just for fun. Most breeders want uniformity of course, but some have wild results from certain combinations and 'unique' bettas come out of those crosses.

Here's a website that discusses basic genetics and outcomes, you might find interesting?

http://www.deepbluebettas.com/genetics.shtml

koidoc
03-11-2006, 09:40 AM
Hey Jim,
had first Hari Kari fish. Found a crack. These glass tops do not sit down tight with airline tubes.

JPR
03-11-2006, 10:04 AM
Bummer! You had asked about lids in another post and what I do. In the smaller tanks, I use tight lids. In these bigger systems ( I like 9 inch deep tanks minimum and the depth of the 20 L is about as deep as I go) I keep the water about two inches or so from the top. This demo tank I set up for the picture is a bad example! I also put floating plants in some of the systems- cambomba, java moss and duckweed- but obviously you need good light ( most of the betta are in a sunroom). Never had a jumper on the floor but the fighters will jump to get over dividers to their opponents.
I'll snap a picture of the lins on some of my smaller barracks designs. JR

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 01:32 PM
OK...I have a question...
Lets say I would like to have 1 really pretty male...
Would I get a 10 gal aquarium for him with a charcoal filter and heater???

I really like the black and white one that is JR's in the front of this thread!!!
and I really like the look of this one I saw on the auction thread...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/fwbettashm1142461577.jpg

JPR
03-11-2006, 02:13 PM
OK, let's say you buy from somchai ( that's bettamaximus's owner) and he sends you one of his young males like the one you have pictured.

You pay $5 for shipping to America
$2.60 for handling and clearing customs
$ 40 about for Fed EX- DO NOT use the Postal system Express mail. I've had them loose the last three shipments on me for three days! I'll never use them again!
$15- 20 for a ten gallon ( I'd use a two and half or five gallon myself)
$16 for a heater
$8-20 for a filter
$10 for misc decorations ( plants, gravel etc.)

Kinda expensive even if you win the fish for as cheap as $20?

The point I'm making is -- you are almost forced to breed these fish due to their short live's and relative frailty. Then you can rationalize the big upfront expense over a few generations! :)
JR

This fish will be around for about two years as your pet.

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 02:20 PM
WOW!!! That does seem like a lot of $$$ for just one betta...

I guess for now I will have to live through your's and Art's pictures!!!

Which reminds me...
Do you have more pic's that you could post???
That blue and white one was amazing looking!!! :yes:

JPR
03-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Sorry didn't mean to scare you away!! LOLs Just that this is more about buying the genetics to work with in an ongoing hobby pass time than buying display specimens. I mean it can certainly be done but you have to realize that it will be expensive. Tell you what, when I get surplus fish this summer ( The stores can only buy so many and they pay me .90 each for the culls) I'll send you some. You just pay for the shipping. Hows that? JR

JR

koidoc
03-11-2006, 06:15 PM
I went out and bought a 12"x24" plexiglass sheet today and cut custom tops for the bettas with tubing holes and heater hole. Now it sits down flush. Will start plumbing on wall system tonight. Het Jim I lost that betta that cost about $45 with shipping and I didn't even cry. Wonder why. Money conditioning?

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 06:52 PM
Sorry didn't mean to scare you away!! LOLs Just that this is more about buying the genetics to work with in an ongoing hobby pass time than buying display specimens. I mean it can certainly be done but you have to realize that it will be expensive. Tell you what, when I get surplus fish this summer ( The stores can only buy so many and they pay me .90 each for the culls) I'll send you some. You just pay for the shipping. Hows that? JR

JR

JR...that is so very nice of you!!!
When we get all set up in our new house I may take you up on that offer!!!
I just love these guys!!! :yes:

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 06:56 PM
I went out and bought a 12"x24" plexiglass sheet today and cut custom tops for the bettas with tubing holes and heater hole. Now it sits down flush. Will start plumbing on wall system tonight. Het Jim I lost that betta that cost about $45 with shipping and I didn't even cry. Wonder why. Money conditioning?

WOW!!! :eek:
Art that is a beautiful set up!!!

Now for another question...
What are the betta's with these kind of tails called???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/3b.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/9c.jpg
I am not sure if I like them or not, but I keep looking at them going hummm... :eek:

JPR
03-11-2006, 07:25 PM
'Insects!' ;) JR


Art, how did you cut your plexiglass to get an even line? JR

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 07:33 PM
'Insects!' ;) JR
JR

JR...Is that the name of the betta's I pictured there??? :confused:
If so that is a strange name...

JPR
03-11-2006, 07:50 PM
No!!! Crown tails or comb trait is the proper name. But to a lot of people in the betta hobby, this look reminds them of aranoids or an insect than a fish?! Inside joke I guess? ;) JR

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 07:56 PM
No!!! Crown tails or comb trait is the proper name. But to a lot of people in the betta hobby, this look reminds them of an aranoids or an insect than a fish?! Inside joke I guess? ;) JR

Oh hehe!!!
Now I can laugh because it is TRUE!!!
and I have decided that I don't like them nearly as much as the ones that look like this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/fwbettashm1142461577.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Colored%20Koi%20Favorites/fwbettashm1142004751.jpg

JPR
03-11-2006, 08:30 PM
Here's one of my green blue lace from 'Pat' Rainney betta

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 08:35 PM
Here's one of my green blue lace from 'Pat' Rainney betta
WOW!!! JR that is one amazing looking fish!!!
I love the spikes in the tail especially
when they are such a different color than the rest of the fin!!!

Would you please be so kind and post more pic's of your beautimus betta's!!! :yes:

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Oh...another question...
If you look at the 2 pic's that I posted above....
The red one's fins look really fuller than the other one...
Is that just the picture or are they different breeds??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

JPR
03-11-2006, 08:47 PM
The extended red fish does have very full finnage, It's a OHM type and from a very high end Thai breeder. Just a flashier finnage. If you look at mine, it also has that fuller finnage than the second fish you posted. All are good, but for finnage, red maximus fish is first, mine is second and truebettas is third. For overall, mine is first. And that is onlt because the red is more dominate and common, although there is nothing 'common' about Somchai's fish.

koiingaround
03-11-2006, 09:26 PM
Ok...I hope I am not asking too many question...
but how do you pick out a great betta...
I just know what looks nice and pleasing to me... ;)
I know there must be judging points like there is for koi...
Do you just get betta from certain breeders or do you look for something in particular???
Thank you for taking the time to share...
This is so interesting because I have always looked at those betta's in the little cups and wondered if there were more to them...

Meg
03-11-2006, 10:05 PM
I have loved looking at these Bettas
thanks :yes:

Ruth
03-11-2006, 10:07 PM
Me too. I was in Walmart last night. Stopped by just to see their bettas. I had never paid much attention to them before this thread. What a disappointment. The ones posted here are just gorgeous....almost makes me want one.

koidoc
03-11-2006, 10:10 PM
So I started today on my wall system for 24 betta aquariums with a common drip flow through system filtration. The filter is a 20 gal aquarium with a 300 watt heater,and 2 cubic feet of bio-ribbon.
First I drill the holes in the unit to pass pipes from filter to tanks and from tanks back to filter by overflow.

Meg
03-11-2006, 10:14 PM
OMG! that is going to be sharp :jawdrop:

koidoc
03-11-2006, 10:14 PM
Then I put in the filter, pump, heater, air pump to circulate water in filter and aerate system and the inlet side of the system to the shelves.

koidoc
03-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Then I put in return llines that are 3/8" the take overflow from 24 tanks back to the filter. You see them return in the top left corner. Inlet water to tanks goes up right side. Also put flourescent lights on each shelf. Now system is ready to just take 3/16" tube from inlet to tank and hook up 3/8" line from outlet to return system. Now I need tanks.

koidoc
03-11-2006, 10:31 PM
Hey Ruth Get one with me next time and just put in my shipping for free. That way you just pay $8 above your bid.

Ruth
03-11-2006, 11:25 PM
I just edited my whole post. I started to ask when you were buying again but I'm trying to simplify things. When we take our 75 gal aquarium down and if I find myself still wanting a fish indoors, then I'll take you up on your offer. By that time you'll have some good experience with them :yes: Thanks for the offer.
Oh my there for a minute I started to get myself into another project........I need control..... :D:

koiingaround
03-12-2006, 04:00 AM
Art!!!
You are going to have one fine set up there!!! :yes:

aartwmich
03-12-2006, 07:59 AM
JPR..thanks for the thorough and concise explanation of the differences between filtration for bettas vs. goldfish, fish load and a more effecient digestive system. The temp differential proves you have circulation thru the fine mesh baskets, even though they look like they are packed too tight together for much tank circulation. The tank divider must be perforated?

You use plants to further sweeten the water....makes me think, what about Ph?

Your explanations make it clear that even though these are small fishes with lower filtration needs this is no simple undertaking. The short longevity making breeding the real goal which entails a rather large undertaking. Although I find these fish fascinating and would love to have a few with plants in a small bank, it's more than I would want to take on.

Of course.... you could put me on your cull list ;)

aartwmich
03-12-2006, 08:07 AM
Art..your setup is looking fantastic! Thanks for the pictorial on it's assembly. I have some questions....

Is that biomedia made of plastic and I don't know just how hot those heaters get but should the media be touching the heater?

In this pic of your fliter tank I see an air pump on the right side of the tank, does this just aerate the filter tank itself and not all the individual tanklets?

Then inside the tank I see what I think is a submersible pump to the right and is that a fliter box to the left of the submersible pump? I see 2 lines coming out of the sub pump, one obviously must go up and tee off to feed the indivual tanklets. The other line seems to go to the suspected filter box, is this an inlet to the sub pump?

koidoc
03-12-2006, 08:28 AM
Ruth, It will probably be a month or so before next order. How will you divide up 75 gal tank?
You are making my setup to complicated on the filter. First the air pump jut goes to the filter to keep water moving around fliter material and heater. That thing you think looks like a filter box is a large blue and black airstone from pump. Th filter material is plastic but water is moving around all the time at 75 degrees or so.
The line off the pump that goes sideways is just a valve to take excess pressure off the pump since just doing 24 drips. It just feed water back to tank and circulates water in media as well. See later close up of filter. I still have two more returns from system to go. There will be 6 lines coming back in top left corner. One from each shelf.

aartwmich
03-12-2006, 08:57 AM
Ruth, It will probably be a month or so before next order. How will you divide up 75 gal tank?
You are making my setup to complicated on the filter. First the air pump jut goes to the filter to keep water moving around fliter material and heater. That thing you think looks like a filter box is a large blue and black airstone from pump. Th filter material is plastic but water is moving around all the time at 75 degrees or so.
The line off the pump that goes sideways is just a valve to take excess pressure off the pump since just doing 24 drips. It just feed water back to tank and circulates water in media as well. See later close up of filter. I still have two more returns from system to go. There will be 6 lines coming back in top left corner. One from each shelf.Ahhh I understand now....I think the valve itself is hidden by the verticle crossmember on the shelving unit...make sense ;)

JPR
03-12-2006, 09:14 AM
Koiing, you asked about picking bettas. Aside from the obvious, healthy looking, young and vibrant, I pick bettas, I think, a lot like Brady or Brett would buy his koi stock. Every fish has to make sense in my whole betta population. Since I see an individual betta as a fleeting thing, I zero in on what his/her contribution can be to my betta group? Now I also impulse buy on occasion! But not as often as the old days. And like koi, you soon learn you can’t own everyone of them that tickles your fancy! ;)

But as far as picking a good betta goes, you look for a solid fish. Like koi, you need a strong body, normal eyes, a good back bone and a STRONG tail tube. A betta must carry its finnage well and for a lifetime- it must be strong. And this concept ‘dovetails’ with the idea of this fish as a fighting fish in the traditional sense.
Art had asked me about fin rays on a betta as you see that mentioned a lot. The rays are, of course, what carries the finnage. Like masts on a sail boat, they must be strong and numerous. But here there is some debate. Some favor many rays. Others only want the strongest rays of any count.
The show people tend to want rays to count- as a verification of strength of a support structure. But counting rays for a breeder is not enough. If the rays are 16 in number but thin and weak- what good is that? Betta judges are deficient in this area I think, as they only count and grade on the number. A breeder will shake his/her head and say “ I’d rather have 8 ( eight is the agreed upon minimum by all) rays that are powerful and strong than 14 or 16 that are thin and weak. This, in the end, comes down to hard analysis, conventional standards and then the application of experience based on seeing many many good fish. Very similar to good koi judging.

So in the case of OHMs ( OVER half moon shaped tails) you need structure. Billowing fins are not enough and ironically many become a handicap for the older male fish with poor body , spine and ray structure.

In the end, look for a fish that has beautiful finnage that it can carry now and then study what that fish might look like older and larger.
Hope this helped? JR

JPR
03-12-2006, 09:22 AM
Aartwmich, yep the divider is also micro screen. I saw some one make one of these out of 'report' spines from staples and a micro netting. The spines or binders were then hot glued gunned to the aquarium sides.
The rest of your post tells me you really get it!
My goal is not to talk anyone out of keeping bettas. But like any other pet ownership, there is a level of responsibility and commitment. And in that light, I only want to inform folks of what they are getting into. It seems in this society, we want to add pets to our lives as living paintings to adorn our homes. The operative word here should be 'living' and not 'painting'! ;) JR

JPR
03-12-2006, 10:07 AM
Aartwmich, I guess even pictures can be misleading on the Internet! LOls Here's an aireal view so you can see the flow lane in this system design.

Well its been a few hours so I'm sure our hero Art has built three more wall systems by now!! I love your type A energy, man! ;) I know, I know-- " it takes one to know one--"
JR

koiingaround
03-12-2006, 10:33 AM
Thank you JR your explanation was great!!! :yes: :cool: :yes:
(and so are you!!!)

willow
03-12-2006, 10:38 AM
Great looking fish. I was raising them but found that I was setting up more and more tanks to separate and grow out the young. They got along just fine if they grew up together. Forget it, if trying to reintroduce them tho. Occassionally I found one would become really aggressive when they matured. I especially liked the snow white half moon fantails. Strictly have fancy goldfish/ shubunkins/koi now.

JPR
03-12-2006, 11:53 AM
Willow, interesting comments. And you are accurate in your observations- to a point.

The natural behavior of a betta living in a drainage ditch, small pool or rice paddy is marked by extreme territorialism. In a normal setting, a spawn slowing disperses into a surrounding area. Battles might occur but usually remain highly ritualistic in nature with just body waving, posturing and a nip or two. But if the fish can not escape one another, the instincts intensify until one is beaten to within an inch of its life and often dies days later from infection and osmotic imbalance.
When you observe an entire spawn, the first thing you notice is that a pecking order is established. Marine fish keepers and African chiclid keepers will be well aware of this dynamics. But unlike those fish, bettas natural aggression towards one another only intensifies with age.
So you can raise a spawn ( only brothers and sisters that have always been together) for several months in a communal type situation. At about age two months you will begin to see the ritualistic behavior typical of males. To avoid damaged fins and then associated disease, it is recommended that you segregate the aggressors at this point and any other identifiable males. You can put this off but by age 3 months you will have all hell break loose if you have even been that lucky for that long? Its just the nature of the beast.
Soon you are left with only females. The females will live together reasonably peacefully once a solid pecking order is established. BUT this also means that there will be a supreme abuser on top and a lowly, very worried looking, bottom fish. These ‘lower than a snakes belly in a wagon wheel ditch’ fish tend to be stunted over time and often die of whatever gets into the tank in way of disease. And if you experiment by removing some females, or God forbid, add in new females, they are likely to fight almost like males until order is once again established. Meanwhile that poor ‘lower than a snakes belly’ fish will have to be moved to an Aquarium home for the very very nervous!
To manage this squabbling, you can do a few things- either give the individuals a lot of room or crowd them in an almost ridiculous manner! Both techniques carry a form of logic in the minds of animal behaviorists. Another trick is to fill the tank with plants, like green cabomba, so that the fish really have avenues or lanes to hide in and among. This slows down attacks and gives a sense of security to those lower in the pecking order and at the same time, does not make them stand out like the color red to the top ‘bull’ female.
JR

JPR
03-12-2006, 11:59 AM
PS. Art has been way to quite? I suspect the garage is now wall to wall bettas! ;)

"Chon Kaew!" ;)

JR

emmalou
03-12-2006, 01:29 PM
Art..........great cabinet for the setup.The pics are worth a thousand words!
JR..I am liking the mesh nets more and more........might have to make atrip today and grab me some more.

JPR
03-12-2006, 03:39 PM
The design I showed you is pretty cheap but I saw even a cheaper one! Maybe we should try and design/construct the least expensive/most efficient betta housing mankind has ever known!! Now THAT would be something.

One unit I saw was made by mounting white rain gutters on a paneled basement wall. They were attached to the walls in four foot lengths in a shelf like pattern. Each row of gutter then had a leaf guard strip inside it. Beanie babie boxes were then placed in- lined up side by side ( like the beautiful glass tanks Art posted a picture of a few pages back.
The drains themselves were tapped and plumbed so that any water in them was collected and via PVC piping , brought down to a large plastc storage box filled with biobale and a 300 watt heater. The water was returned with and ehiem submerible pump to a series of spray bars ( each having a tube to an individual beanie babies box.
You can use a wood burner set heating/soldering iron to make clean holes in a beanie babies box, by the way.

JR

aaah, I just found that picture of this system--
http://www.fishjunkies.com/Fishroom/breedingstock.php

emmalou
03-12-2006, 05:26 PM
Well, that certainly is different.I don't have any wall space for anything like that.lol.....

I have three male sin a ten gallon right now.there WAS a divider down the middle, and a mesh cage in one of the halves..the one red male was always getting through the divider, every day I was dipping my hand in the tank to scoop him out.but he would find a way back. I finally just a few hours ago gave up.the plastic divider I bought was a waste of money....anyways, now there are two males loose.and they seem quite content? No flaring.no chasing,is this common? I will keep an eye on them.but so far.so good.

koiingaround
03-12-2006, 08:29 PM
aaah, I just found that picture of this system--
http://www.fishjunkies.com/Fishroom/breedingstock.php

:no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no:
I don't really like this set up very much...
It seems just too dark or something that does not show off the beauty of the betta's.
But thank you JR for sharing it!!! :D:

Ruth
03-12-2006, 08:43 PM
Ruth, It will probably be a month or so before next order. How will you divide up 75 gal tank?
Hi Art,
We're not going to divide the 75 -we want to get rid of it. I need the floor space. :rolleyes: If I would ever want to get one of these fish it will be a while. For now I'll just enjoy this thread. Thanks anyway.

JPR
03-12-2006, 10:32 PM
When my show setup is done koiing, I guarantee you will love it! ;) JR

JPR
03-12-2006, 10:52 PM
This is the website article I was looking for earlier- very clever and very cheap!
enjoy!
JR

http://www.deepbluebettas.com/divtank.shtml

aartwmich
03-13-2006, 03:55 PM
Aartwmich, yep the divider is also micro screen. I saw some one make one of these out of 'report' spines from staples and a micro netting. The spines or binders were then hot glued gunned to the aquarium sides.
The rest of your post tells me you really get it!
My goal is not to talk anyone out of keeping bettas. But like any other pet ownership, there is a level of responsibility and commitment. And in that light, I only want to inform folks of what they are getting into. It seems in this society, we want to add pets to our lives as living paintings to adore our homes. The operative word here should be 'living' and not 'painting'! ;) JRWell, I always like to get the WHOLE story and you have thoroughly told that story well. I would love to have a betta or 2 but no way I wanna dive in that far.
Same reason I've been reading this pond forum for 2+ years but no way I will start building until I know I can do it right and commit to it long term in a quality way. I've started too many other hobbies and been disappointed that I couldn't take the time or money to do things well enough to truly feel successful.
But that the beauty of the internet, you can study and learn from the masters before diving in!!

OHWOW I never woulda guessed from the other pics that there was that big of a gap for flow! Thanks for the one more pic, makes MUCH more sense now.

emmalou
03-13-2006, 04:02 PM
This is the website article I was looking for earlier- very clever and very cheap!
enjoy!
JR

http://www.deepbluebettas.com/divtank.shtml
Ok.thats what I attempted to try with the plastic I picked up.did not work out.but this looks much more manageable!

koidoc
03-14-2006, 12:49 AM
Hey Guys, I am in Vegas. Hold the fort and keep this thread going. Left 85 degrees in MD. Came here and it got all the way up to 58 degrees today in Vegas. Los Angeles had snow over the weekend.

JanT
03-14-2006, 08:57 AM
18 degrees here this morning, Art, so enjoy where you are. Besides, with all that money you are winning, you won't be outdoors much to worry about weather. Save some of it ($) for Koi....or bettas, or goldfish. LOL Have a wonderful time and play some Texas Hold 'Em for Scott.
JR is keeping us enlightened on this thread.

koidoc
03-14-2006, 10:26 AM
Jan, Send me the 100$ buy in. I have been playing $3 BJ( no that does not stand for Blow ***) that is free with the liquor.

emmalou
03-14-2006, 03:50 PM
Art...20 bucks on red........ ;)

Couple of shots form this morning of the mutts..their morning flare they get for 20 minutes every day....then another tease after dinner. :rolleyes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/fl5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/fl2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/fl1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/pearl.jpg

A peek ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/peek.jpg

Wolfscout1
03-14-2006, 04:37 PM
my pc won't focus on him too well but this is ' Spirit '
Rescued from Wally World i reckon a mutt is better than no mutt.

aartwmich
03-14-2006, 05:18 PM
Soooo can you keep males in adjacent tanklets, do they constantly flare at each other?

I keep wondering just what it takes to catch the timing that JPR described in order to breed these beauties.

Emma....the blue one in the 2nd pic is lovely...and that 5th pic is an awesome shot!

JanT
03-14-2006, 05:21 PM
Jan, Send me the 100$ buy in. I have been playing $3 BJ( no that does not stand for Blow ***) that is free with the liquor.
:eek: :D: :To funny: Too funny, Art. I am actually starting to understand you/your humor and that is scary.
Scott says he is saving his $ cause he will be out there playing in a poker tournament mid-April. :mad: There goes the fish money again. :p: No, he really usually wins, so I better shhhh.

Where did you find $3 BJ (don't go there)??? I thought all casinos were $5 and mostly $10 tables?

aartwmich
03-14-2006, 05:24 PM
OK is this an optical illusion or are these fellas fins actually sticking out above the water line?? The blue and white one reminds me of an iris bloom. Fluffy Flower Fishes..lol

JPR
03-14-2006, 07:33 PM
The fish are in a 2 gallon glass tank and the water line you see is in the tank next to them! ;) JR

JPR
03-14-2006, 08:03 PM
Sorry about the picture quality but here is an interesting plakat I picked up from one of the Thai breeders--

JPR
03-14-2006, 10:50 PM
Emmalou, Love the head-on close ups! Excellent! When I walk into the fish room, I have 90 pairs of eyes staring at me exactly that way! Too funny!

Here's a handsome PK I bought from Thailand--

JPR
03-14-2006, 10:51 PM
yellow MG HM

BAKA
03-15-2006, 10:06 AM
Soooo can you keep males in adjacent tanklets, do they constantly flare at each other?

I keep wondering just what it takes to catch the timing that JPR described in order to breed these beauties.

Emma....the blue one in the 2nd pic is lovely...and that 5th pic is an awesome shot!
Do they constantly flare at each other when they are kept in tanks with the divider?

JPR
03-15-2006, 10:29 AM
Hi , not sure if you are asking Me? If so, yes they are next to one another. Sometimes I keep boy/girl/boy/girl/boy/girl. It really depends on age, purpose and breeding intentions. JR

Leekinneykoi
03-15-2006, 10:35 AM
Koi Judges Wanted.:)

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36997

mitchkin5
03-15-2006, 11:24 AM
Thanks so much for this thread..I have always loved bettas and this has opened my eyes to a lot of things I din't know about them before...this is a facinating thread..took me two whole days to get thru it but was well worth the read...I never knew they came in the show varities..they ae simply awesome....The blue ones are my favorite or any shade thereof.....didn't even know half the colors existed...all I can say is WOW!. I definitely will try again on a beta...and treat it the way it should be taken care of.... :D:

emmalou
03-15-2006, 12:19 PM
Jr.that is a beaut of a plakat! Female? I wouldn't be getting over to the breeder here for a month or so.....but I am excited about seeing her bettas.

Bart, I have tanks that have the blue divider in the middle.this divider can be taken out, and the clear piece stays put. This is what I remove in the morning so they can play with their flares ;) Yet in the other tanks I have, there is a clear divider with no solid piece, and these guys rarely flare up. They get adjusted to each other .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/divider.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/pearlface.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/faceup.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/fembeta.jpgFemale

JPR
03-15-2006, 01:40 PM
Excellent photos emmalou! Really good
JR

PS male PK, they are typically shorter finned . But I've seen plakats that look more like long fins and long fins that looked more like plakats!

see if anyone can pick up something different about the yellow and blue fish ( blurry picture I posted om page 23)

emmalou
03-15-2006, 02:32 PM
Excellent photos emmalou! Really good
JR

PS male PK, they are typically shorter finned . But I've seen plakats that look more like long fins and long fins that looked more like plakats!

see if anyone can pick up something different about the yellow and blue fish ( blurry picture I posted om page 23)

I am posting first so I can study the pic.lol
AM I comparing this to the other bettas you have JR? Or is it something that is common for this breed only.


The only thing I see is that the tail fin is more like a spade shape?

emmalou
03-15-2006, 04:24 PM
Same fish.......the second picture makes it look lumpy! And are those teeth I am seeing?





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/puterbet.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/lumpy.jpg

JPR
03-15-2006, 06:06 PM
Bettas are fierce little bloks! They even tear at their own fins sometimes in the shipping bags! True!

Very good Emmalou, spade tail. This is seen on both PKs and fancy HM bettas.

Nice new betta coming here later this month--
JR

emmalou
03-15-2006, 06:14 PM
Phew.lol.I was sweating that one out JR ;)

Wow.that new one is gorgeous!........I can't wait(have to) until I get some classy bettas....

So.those are teeth then? I know they have teeth.just never thought about catching them in a pic.

What is your favorite betta JR? And why?(that you own)

JPR
03-15-2006, 06:27 PM
well when I was a pup I saw pictures of butterfly betta and thought they were unreal! But there was no way of obtaining one back then- just a picture in some TFH book. So I still am amazed to see them swimming and displaying in my tanks at home.

JR

here are a few of mine

emmalou
03-15-2006, 06:34 PM
I am finding that I am becoming partial to the blacks and whites.......everything else is beautiful.but I feel myself being pulled this way. Mind you.I would have one of each ;)

In the second picture.is that black.or is it green?

KoiValley
03-15-2006, 06:43 PM
Somewhere on this thread there was a treatment suggested for new bettas. Anyone point me in that direction?

Thanks,

Karl

JPR
03-16-2006, 03:39 AM
Karl, if you are asking about shipped fish, the treatment would be different than say a fish from the local pet store. In the case of shipped fish, they ( like koi from Japan) come a long way and are subject to ammonia burn and pH shift just like koi. And unlike koi, they are very sensitive to chilling. In this case, a 20 minute aclimation is very important as betta are temperature sensitive below 70F. so acclimation, some very slight salt and WARM water. I was talking to a second generation breeder who suggested 82-84 F for the first week. The key here is to get food in them- live food or frozen food. Unlike koi, you don't have a lot of time to turn around a hurt'en betta. They will die on you in the first 24 hours if not put back on the right path. And like koi, usually good water and right conditions will do more than additives.
You might be interested to know that many breeders will raise fry in 90 F water!! They grow like the misquitos surrounding them! But this does provide an acclimation challenge if one is not aware of this technique. The fish need time to adjust to living closer to room temperatures. JR

JPR
03-16-2006, 04:34 AM
GIANT Plakat in snake skin. This boy will tower over a normal sized betta. JR

JPR
03-16-2006, 04:45 AM
a normal sized Plakat in basic black

JPR
03-16-2006, 09:59 AM
You might be right but actually I think it was meth blue he added? if so, it would be to combat bacteria and fungal infection.

here's the thing- with koi, my philosophy is to provide excellent conditions and observe. I do this because koi are such strong animals that you have time to act. With bettas, the animal has a relatively short window to be rescued if they get into trouble. The scientific name should be Betta Splendid-die-easi-us!
I would say they are give the illusion of hardiness in one area- they CAN live in very tiny spaces. But when shipped, they are shipped in bags that are as small as some large breakfast sausage! True! This technique ignores the fact that the dynamics of ammonia burn and gas dynamics is STILL very much real! As a result, the fish have two major hurdles when they arrive- initial acclimation ( most important) followed by 24 hours of rest in very new water conditions/parameters.
So are threading a needle when it comes to the benefits/trauma of chemical additives. You need to act when you need to act- and- refrain when the fish is too weak to adjust to chemical exposure. I admit it is a tough call. But I've killed bettas trying to 'help' them in the past- so a word to the wise is sufficient? JR

koidoc
03-16-2006, 11:04 AM
Yes it was Meth Blue that I added. I raised temp to 78 degrees since I was leavinbg for 1 week. I would have put nothing in the watre but I figured I would use blue since not there to watch them. Feed Brine 3x day which they ate for two days. Now my dad comes every other day for 5 pellets. Met was since I was not going to be there, otherwise I would have done what Jim says at 82 degrees and nothing. I acclimated over 4 hour period.
Jim these was a previous question you keeping the Bettas next to each other in those nets. Sources say you can not keep bettas next to each other too long or it wears them down. I was wondering the same thing. What are your thoughts on that and what do you do? I was going to get cardboard slats to go between?
By the way those tanks from Buffalo is saying 4-5 weeks now.DAM.