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Ronin-Koi
09-18-2005, 02:53 PM
Most of the threads I've read have dealt with specific pond coatings and I thought it would be helpful to try to have a discussion where we can summarize as many of the options as we can. My requirements for the sealing system is that it be maintanance-free for 10+ years, highly reliable, contributes to fish health, and is aesthetically pleasing. Cost and ease of installation are also important factors.

Here are my thoughts on some of the popular options based on what I have read after digging through koiphen and searching the web. Thanks to many people who have shared data in the past. PLEASE add your thoughts, Pros and Cons and if you have photos, please add that as well. I might come back and edit this original post as hopefully others add new information to this thread.

EPDM Sheet Liner:
Cheapest option, but once you add in the cost of shipping, and tape/sealants (if the wrinkles bother you), the cost starts approaching what some of the cheapest coatings might cost. Taping the wrinkles also adds to the labor involved in installation. The wrinkles are an aesthetics issue as well as potential areas where debris can deposit, so for me, taping them is a must. Can be used in a sloped wall dirt foundation, but if building a koi pond with vertical walls, a concrete collar and/or block walls to support some or most of the wall is a must to avoid wall collapse. 20 year lifetime claimed on Goodyear EPDM.

Pricing: HaveytheKoi is the only one I know that has seamed/taped all the wrinkles of an EPDM liner. Maybe he can offer a price estimate including tapes, shipping, etc. per average sq. ft as well as labor involved? I'm guessing under $800 for a typical 20'x12'x6' pond including the expensive tape, sealants, with an allocation on budget for various liner bulkheads for several TPRs etc.

Pros: Can be DIY, low cost, perhaps ease of installation if not taping wrinkles

Cons: Taping wrinkles will add to installation, larger ponds will require several people to install as a large liner will be 400 pounds or more, consideration must be given to avoid punctures when going into pond, or installing things in years to come, requires bulkheads or pipe boots for penetrations.

EPDM thinkness: 45 mil typical and recommended by most

Here is a good thread on this kind of construction:

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12806

Polyurea:
In my opinion, the best option if price is no object. This is not a DIY option and requires hiring a professional due to the equipment needed. I would much prefer to have a concrete or gunnite shell to apply the polyurea on, which increases the price considerably. Curing time for the concrete/gunnite needs to be considered in terms of scheduling. Some applicators spray polyurea onto geotextile fabric or slurries. Geotextile/Polyurea is not a structural support so this has to be a consideration when trying to install vertical walls. I have seen samples of polyurea on geotextile, and I would be comfortable using this option on the FLOOR of the pond assuming the dirt underneath is solid or pretty well packed down, but I would still want a solid wall to support the sides, probably using a solid footer, plus reinforced concrete blocks.

Pricing: ~$10/sq.ft. of sprayed area for polyurea spraying. Cost of rebar, gunnite, etc. will vary with the job. BobinCa graciously posted that his gunnite job cost $5900 for 21+ yards of gunnite. Rebar and plumbing cost an additional $4000. So that is $10k then add in the cost of spraying.

Pros: 700% elongation properties for this tough elastomer makes it durable with high confidence in success assuming knowledgable installer is used. Allows many pond design options as well as flexibility in installing pond penetrations such as TPRs, bottom drains, skimmers etc.

Cons: Expensive, especially if used with a rebar/gunnite shell. Proper installation key or pin-holes can develop requiring patching. Not a DIY option.

Thickness: Depends on applicator, 80 to 120 mil is what I have been told

Good thread to read about Polyurea construction:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17995
Other useful discussion about Polyurea:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10976

Sanitred Permaflex and LRB/TAV
An option gaining popularity on Koiphen seems to the Sanitred products, partly I think due to BobinCa who as far as I know is the first to use this product on a "proper" koi pond. Sanitred has many apparent similar pros and cons with polyurea except that it is a product that can be DIY, and provides significant cost savings. Other threads discuss the details of the product, but essentially the Permaflex is a two-part mix that can be painted/rolled onto a firm shell such as concrete, gunnite, or concrete block. The LRB/TAV is mixed with minimum ratio of 2:1 LRB:TAV and provides a thick paste applied via troweling to fill in voids and generally smooth out the shell. Another coating of Permaflex is then applied on top of the LRB/TAV. Highly questionable if this product could be used on flexible geotextile. According to Sanitred, Permaflex literally "bonds" to concrete and other surfaces and is not just a coating adding to integrity of sealing system. Permaflex is suppose to bond well to itself allowing for easy repairs, but my understanding is that if greater than a 24 hr period has ellapsed between coats, the previous layer has to be "prepped" prior to application of new layer. Nature of prepping is unclear (someone add?)

Misc. data: High elongation properties allow adjustment in case small non-structural cracks develop in the underlying shell. AR-Permaflex has 590% elongation properties with 2030 psi tensile strength, LRB/TAV has 650% elongation properities. Product can be cold cured and applied at above freezing temperatures.

Cost: At this time (Sept. 05)
AR-Permaflex is $389/5 gallons which is equivalent to $77.75/gallon (gallon pails cost a bit more). The recommended thickness is 20 mil, but I believe two coatings are needed, with each coating requiring 1 gallon for ~80 sq.ft. So if I understand it correctly, 1 gallon at 2 coats and 20 mil will cover 40 sq. ft. To account for imperfect surfaces, coverage may be lower. Then factor in the cost of LRB and TAV the use of which varies depending on surface texture and voids.
LRB is $324/5 gallons which is equivalent to $64.75/gallon.
TAV is $215/5 gallons which is equivalent to $$43/gallon.
BobinCa shared that his 470 sq.ft pond required $871 (shipped) of product to cover his pond. This works out to $1.85/sq.ft.


Pros: DIY-friendly, cost is cheaper than polyurea, advertised properties from manufacturer indicate it is well suited to provide a long lasting, high quality, and reliable finish for the pond.

Cons: Installation cost is still not cheap as it requires a structural support not just for the vertical walls, but for the floor as well. So it is only considered cheap in relation to polyurea. At this point, longevity in koi pond applications have to be proven - many are confident it is not an issue. Clay reports that his discussions with a farmer indicate the successful long lasting use (12 years?) of this product in a non-pond application.

Thickness: Recommended thickness is 20 mil. I would personally apply it thicker including the LRB/TAV and multiple coatings of Permaflex.

Thread on pond using Sanitred Products:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18602
Discussion on Sanitred products:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18157

Gator Guard
My research into Gator Guard has been minimal. I'm not sure what chemistry it has and if it is indeed the same as polyurea under a brand name?? But similar to polyurea, it can not be done DIY and requires a professional installer. Someone else may need to chime in to fill in the blanks, but here is a thread that discusses the construction of a pond using Gator Guard:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12&page=2&pp=40

No info at this time on pricing

CIM or CIM 1000
This is a 2 part "liquid qpplied urethane coating" that can be applied on a structural shell like concrete or gunnite. Offers 400% elongation. Approved for potable water, so should be fish safe. Can be used with a special fabric for areas that require extra strength (I do not believe this is intended to mean it can be used on dirt floors and especially not as vertical support).

Cost: $400/5 gallons (corrected) with recommended 60 mil or 1/16 inch thickness, 1 gallon covers 18 sq. ft. so pricing is $4.44/sq.ft. Again, the shell price must be added.

Pros: Similar to advantages of Sanitred

Cons: Similar to disadvantages of Sanitred, more expensive than Sanitred products

Others please chime in on differences between these various products.

Pond Armor's Pond Shield
A DIY 2-part mix epoxy product applied to firm structural support. Producer advertises the products use for sealing wooden construction ponds. Single coat provides the recommended 10 mil. Can be touched up and recoated up to 72 hours without additional prep. Piping requires sanding for improved adhesion. This product can be used with fiberglass, tape, etc. to improve strength (Again, this is not intended for bare dirt application). This thick formulation is suppose to avoid sag on vertical applications. No primer or sealant needed.

Cost: $75/1.5 quart kit provides coverage of 60 sq.ft at 10 mils. This is $1.25/sq.ft. Add in the cost of proper shell.

Koi Kote
Use to be sold by Pond Armor, but appears to have been replaced by Pond Shield.

Bondglass-Voss G4
Popular product used in the UK. Moisture cured Polyurethane uses moisture in the air and substrate to cure. Can be applied down to 0 C temperatures. Must be applied onto cement rendering as porous concrete block is too open and absorbent. Render must not contain water proofing additives. Recommended rendering = 1/2" thick. G4 will not bond to PVC.

Cost: ?

Hecht Rubber:
Requires cleaning of the concrete or gunnite pond with TC-700 product. Then application of P-SC primer. Three coatings of Black or gray H-55 neoprene rubber is then applied by brush. Dry time is quick between coatings of 60 minutes. Cure time is 24 hrs. 72 hrs to introduce fish. Reportedly provides very good bonding.

Cost:
Black H-55 rubber = $110/gallon, 1 gallon covers between 80 to 100 sq. ft.
TC-700 cleaner = $55/gallon
P-SC = $59/gallon
Making a guess at the usage of primer and cleaner at 1/3 as much as the rubber, I'll estimate a cost of $1.65/sq.ft.

Pros: advertised qualities sound great.

Cons: reports on Koiphen indicate quite a few users have experienced pealing of the coating after a year or two of use. Undetermined if proper application procedures were used. Another user reported no problems after several years.

Here is a recent thread on Hecht:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24716

Liquid-Roof.com
EPDM and curing catalyst. Web-site indicates non-immersion application. Cannot be applied to porous blocks, must use primer. Elongation at 180 to 200%, with tensile strength at 680 psi.

Cost: $372 (shipped)/5 gallons, at ~200 sq.ft. coverage, at 20 mils thick, equates to $1.86/sq.ft.

Whew... that's about all I can contribute at this point. I hope this is helpful to others in my situation trying to decide what type of sealing system they want to use on their pond. EVERYONE, please chime in with your opinions, experiences, and recommendations. But please keep it FRIENDLY.

** New Info Added Below - Additional Options suggested by others:

Pre-formed Pond (JanetMermaid's list):
These are the ready to install single piece shells. Varies from the economical small units available at Home Depot, to the large pre-formed 1500 gallon pond available from WLim, which comes ready made for bottom drains and TPRs.
Pros: Inexpensive (unless you want Lim's unit which is over $2000 not including shipping), no wrinkles, puncture resistant, and DIY friendly.

Cons: Typically the water capacity is not sufficient for koi, unless you get the large one from Lim (!), shapes are limited to the pre-forms, so no mods possible.

Thoroughseal (SherryM's list)
Who makes it, what is it, how is it applied, any data on elongation or durability?
Cost: ?? Pros: ??? Cons: ????

Super Bond 8 (SherryM's list)
What is it? SherryM's pond builder likes Super Bond 8 more than Thoroughseal. Cost: ?, Pros: ?, Cons: ?

Pebbletech (SherryM's list)
Used for pool coatings, what is it? DIY friendly? Cost for SherryMs pool re-finishing is $5800. Pros: ?, Cons: ?

- Wayne, typed all of this with only one cup of coffee. :D:

L5Vegan
09-18-2005, 04:16 PM
Wayne,
Very nicely done. :cool:

JanetMermaid
09-18-2005, 05:57 PM
Wayne, Nice job. Here's a table I did for a presentation. It doesn't include all of the products you cover, but it does compare the most popular:

http://homepage.mac.com/janetch/.Pictures/LinerComparisonChart.jpg

SherryM
09-19-2005, 12:01 AM
Thanks for putting together such a nice synopsis of the various sealant options all in one post.

I too am trying to decide what to seal my pond and waterfalls with. I recently consulted with a pool, pond, and waterfall builder in my area about possible sealers to use over gunite. He's been in the business for about 20 years, comes highly recommended, and has done some incredibly beautiful stuff that has stood the test of time. He said that in the past he used thoroughseal on his koi ponds, but now he uses a product that he considers superior called "Super Bond 8" (I think that is what he called it, but I haven't been able to find out anything about it by googling). He has been using it for a number of years with great success, no peeling or cracking, etc. I know nothing about either thoroughseal or this Super Bond product, but I think they might both be a cement based, plaster like sealant. Would be nice to add them to your list and hear what, if anything, others know about them.

Another option that you might want to consider is pebble tech (the stuff they use in swimming pools). It's a bit pricey (don't know how much/sq. ft. but we are having our swimming pool refinished with it and it will cost about $5800). I'm planning to get a bid for having my koi pond sealed with it too, although I expect it will come in considerably over budget for the koi pond.

Looking forward to following this thread.

danzcool
09-19-2005, 03:24 AM
Gatorgard and polyurea are essentially the same thing, slightly different formula, but polyurea formulas vary even among the installers of "pure" polyurea.



Perhaps you should add the various epoxy paint mixes (sweetwater, nelsonite poolpoxy).

Janet, your chart is nice, but shouldn't it have the disclaimer that concrete/gunite ponds require an additional sealer?

seanmckinney
09-19-2005, 05:31 AM
Ronin G4 is quite expensive, from memory comperable to the cost of actually glassing a pond.
There is also a "water soluable" epoxy pond paint called P1, however in the states that may well be very close to a food safe, commercial kitchen, wall paint that may be significantly cheaper.
I used P1 to seal my shoreline and it is coming up on 3 years old now, it seems fine but like, I assume, all paints it objects to heavy rocks being dropped on it. Clear pond paint like G4 and P1 seem to change the colour of the underlying 'cement', P1 darkened my green shore line which was an effect I liked, so I will be applying it to the imitation rock wall I made a few weeks ago. I have seen G4 applied to an imitation Cotswold stone collar around a shop's koi holding tank and it seemed to have deepened the yellow or buff of that. I believe G4 should be kept away from pvc liners but that isnt likely to be a major problem in the US, it is one reason why I used P1

Ronin-Koi
09-19-2005, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the replies so far everyone. Hopefully, we will get a few more replies, and then I'll do another edit to include inputs we have gotten so far onto the first post.

For those that have not seen polyurea before, below are two samples that were provided to me by applicators. On the right, which happens to be gray, is a polyurea sample from Keirin Koi which is about 80 mils thick. On the left is a sample from Poly-Pro Coatings which is black polyurea sprayed onto geotextile -- that combo is about 120 mils thick. Below the black poly is a piece of the same material flipped over to show what the geotextile material looks like. Both pieces are bendable, but seems to be really tough. I would feel pretty comfortable about the durability especially if on blocks or gunnite.

- Wayne, really likes polyurea, but is leaning away from it due to it not being a DIY option and also due to the cost barrier.

Mark_NoVA
09-19-2005, 11:14 AM
Wayne, great summary! That is a nice service to us. A couple of other notes that could be added: the polyurea cost is the installed cost, whereas the others are for raw materials. So while polyurea is still awfully expensive, the comparison is not as bad when you consider the cost of installation. On the other hand, there can also be extra charges for polyurea application for all of the protruding items, one charges $75 extra for each TPR pipe going through the liner, for example. Yet again on another hand, polyurea comes with an installation guarantee (others are for material only). This can vary, 1 or 2 years. For an expensive long-lasting product, I wish the guarantee was longer, though; you would think that if polyurea lasted a year or two with no problem, it should then last 10 or 20. A little strange--polyurea over geotextile has the reputation of being more reliable than without geotextile, but PolyPro (has geotextile) has a 1-year guarantee while GatorGard (no geotextile) has a 2-year guarantee. Don't know about Keirin Koi's (no geotextile) guarantee.
When you feel those polyurea samples, the one with geotextile in it seems stronger, but my understanding is that the geotextile doesn't add much if any strength--it is just a better surface for the polyurea to be sprayed on.

Ryan S.
09-19-2005, 12:01 PM
Thanks for putting all that stuff together. It seems like things that are so easy to accoplish in pools everyone has trouble doing in ponds. I'm thinking about a large project comming up, in the works. I will probably be concrete block walls and poured bottoms. Surewall on the blocks and another sealer or paint over that.

Ronin-Koi
09-20-2005, 08:34 AM
Part of the advertised advantage of Permaflex from Sanitred is that it "bonds" to the concrete substrate. I am wondering what restrictions there might be on the underlayment that can be used. So far, BobinCa and Goose who have used the product on ponds applied it over a continuous surface.

If applying it over concrete blocks, has anyone figured out if some kind of surface coating is needed due to the rough, porous blocks and the mortar joints? What would you use to surface coat the blocks? What kind of mix do they use as "render" over in the UK? Someone mentioned (Kent Wallace?) that he mixes acrylic with the concrete (?) for the surface coating. My concern is that the acrylic or any plasticizer might inhibit the bonding of the Sanitred product.

I was also considering using surewall on the common wall separating my pond from the filter pit for added strength. Is surewall a suitable "rendering?" I have never used it before.

- Wayne, always looking for more opinions and suggestions.

schildkoi
09-20-2005, 09:04 AM
I don't want to turn this into a "bashing" thread, but....... First off, CIM is anywhere from $40 to $65 per gallon and covers 25 sq ft...big difference than what was actually posted.

Second off, The Mermaid's comparisons is way outa whack (gee, I have said that before a few times). Polyurea is a sealant, not a structural compound...FACT. Gunite is a structural base and not a sealant...FACT. Attempting to compare the two is apples and oranges and I continually have to keep calling her and others on the carpet over this.

One option I don't see listed which for a sealing system is by far "the best" is fiberglass. Yes, its also the most expensive as well and when applied on a proper structure is smooth and permanent, easily repaired (although I haven't ever seen one that had to be repaired.

Construction methods vary as do sealants and possibilities between the two...remember folks, you should be working with an entire "System", not individual components.

Steve

Mark_NoVA
09-20-2005, 10:00 AM
Gotta couple of questions that I'm not clear on:
Is fiberglass a viable option in the U.S.? From what I've read, it is not advisable to DIY fiberglass; however, we don't have anyone in the U.S. doing it for ponds, do we? (And why is that, I wonder? I bet some of the polyurea installers would be installing fiberglass if they thought it was a better option.)
This is rather basic, but I don't know the "why": why are swimming-pool-type finishes not used? They obviously hold water, but when people convert pools to ponds, they seem to put on a different liner. Is the surface bad for koi?

Ronin-Koi
09-20-2005, 10:01 AM
... CIM is anywhere from $40 to $65 per gallon and covers 25 sq ft...big difference than what was actually posted.
Thanks for the comments Steve. I did make a typing mistake above and wrote $400/gallon, instead of $400/5 gallons, which I will correct. However, the price per sq.ft I wrote above is correct and is based on the website that I found on CIM. I had to double check my information to make sure I wasn't going bonkers, but the website below, which is where I got my pricing and coverage data lists $400/5 gallons which works out to $80 per gallon. And they state one gallon covers 18 sq.ft. at 60 mils thick, which works out to $4.44 per sq.ft. The CIM is about 80% down on the long products page.

http://www.pondshop.com/catalog/const.htm

That's the only place I found that sells it. Let me know of cheaper options. Thanks.

Regarding your comments on structural characteristics of polyurea, I do not disagree, and I hope my above comments on it reflect my opinion on the need for sound structural support if using it on vertical walls of any height.

Thanks for the reminder on fiberglass. It isn't really an option for me so I have done no research on it. Can you share any specifics on cost, pros, cons? It sounds like a great option for the UK and I'll definitely add it to the list above when I do my next edit.


Construction methods vary as do sealants and possibilities between the two...remember folks, you should be working with an entire "System", not individual components.
Agree, which is part of the reason I'm trying to understand what is a suitable substrate for the Sanitred products and if additives in the rendering might inhibit bonding.

- Wayne, wonders why fiber glassing isn't used more in the US.

schildkoi
09-20-2005, 10:28 AM
Take a look at CIM's web site and their coverage chart for 1061...Adobe doesn't let me do a copy and paste unfortunately

http://www.cimind.com/

For 60 mils, dry thickness the coverage area is: 24 sq ft per gallon (applied at 68 mils

For a 45 mil dry finish, it is applied at 51 mils and covers 31 sq ft per gallon.

CIM 1000 is the exact same formula as the potable water 1061 but simply does not have the certification for potable water necessary for municiple water systems..in other words, they charge more for the certification for the same product. I have purchased CIM 1000 for as low as $45 per gallon and 1061 for as low as $85 per gallon. If there is a local dealer (check w/ CIM using their 1800 number) you can save a bunch on Hazardous material shipping.

Fiberglass has been done in the US, and is more prevelant in areas where there are fiberglass people available. Its more costly but provides the best surface possible when done correctly.

Steve

Harveythekoi
09-20-2005, 02:51 PM
The taping of the folds added quite a bit to the cost. The tape alone in a 100' roll is almost $300 and due to my shape there were a lot of folds. In a more squared off pond the major folds would be in the cornmers and cost a little less.

My quoted price for just the pond shooting poly over geotextile was $4K. The river would have been a big extra due to all the work. There's enough liner and tape left over to handle that so not counting my labor the savings were close to $3K-$4K.

The other downside to the poly was I was told they couldn't garantee me a smooth finish and they would not garantee my connections: Standard bottom drains, TPR's with screwed on clamps and a pool type skimmer. At that point I really questioned the extra cost.

Garrett

BobinCA
09-20-2005, 07:13 PM
Part of the advertised advantage of Permaflex from Sanitred is that it "bonds" to the concrete substrate. I am wondering what restrictions there might be on the underlayment that can be used. So far, BobinCa and Goose who have used the product on ponds applied it over a continuous surface.

If applying it over concrete blocks, has anyone figured out if some kind of surface coating is needed due to the rough, porous blocks and the mortar joints? What would you use to surface coat the blocks? What kind of mix do they use as "render" over in the UK? Someone mentioned (Kent Wallace?) that he mixes acrylic with the concrete (?) for the surface coating. My concern is that the acrylic or any plasticizer might inhibit the bonding of the Sanitred product.

I was also considering using surewall on the common wall separating my pond from the filter pit for added strength. Is surewall a suitable "rendering?" I have never used it before.

- Wayne, always looking for more opinions and suggestions.

Wayne,

The Permaflex product would be the first coat....acting as a primer coat.
You would follow that up with the use of LRB + TAV to fill any joints/seams.
Permaflex, then, would be the third coat or top coat bonding to both the LRB and the primer coat as well.

The primer coat of Permaflex mechanically bonds to the concrete or blocks.
Subsequent coats of either LRB/tav and Permaflex all molecularly bond to each other.

BobinCA

Kent Wallace
09-20-2005, 10:31 PM
Mark, Steve is right but the place to look for fiberglass installers is the pool repair industry. There are a lot of fiberglass swimming pools out there and an entire industry of repair guys that take care of them. That group can also render an entire pond if necessary. It's just not common here in the US as a pond surface. Janon's brother is a fiberglass pool repair contractor in Ca. and is very good at it. I'd be happy to recomend him for anyone in the LA area that would want to fiberglass a concrete pond.

Moneypit
09-20-2005, 11:27 PM
I found CIM1000 trowel grade for $246.00 per 5 gallons at a outlet in canada and was told it needed to be applied one gallon per 20 sqft, this is what I plan on using for my concrete pond.

Stacey

Harveythekoi
09-20-2005, 11:35 PM
You got a rough idea on the sq ft price for something like that?

I don't see why the chopper gun method wouldn't be able to be used even over something less structural. I mean they make plenty of boats that way so if it can keep water out and be that sturdy it should keep water in and be just as strong. You can order custom fiberglass pools that just slip in a dirt hole with a sand base, looked into that also but they didn't have anything appealing shape wise off the shelf where the money savings are.

Garrett

Meg
09-21-2005, 12:05 AM
thanks for all the info everyone, very helpful

schildkoi
09-21-2005, 07:30 AM
One consideration is that they do not have to support vertical wieght and have a 3' wide concrete collar/walk around them. A tad bit different than the typical pond with more wieght at the edges due to landscaping/rock.

I am currently looking into this option for myself but woild also plan a structural concrete collar.

Steve

Ronin-Koi
09-21-2005, 09:23 AM
The Permaflex product would be the first coat....acting as a primer coat. You would follow that up with the use of LRB + TAV to fill any joints/seams. Permaflex, then, would be the third coat or top coat bonding to both the LRB and the primer coat as well. The primer coat of Permaflex mechanically bonds to the concrete or blocks. Subsequent coats of either LRB/tav and Permaflex all molecularly bond to each other. Hi Bob, Yes I understand the different functions of the different Sanitred components thanks in large part to your excellent thread on Sanitred. My question had to do with rendering and whether or not additives (such as acrylics and other products that might typically be added to make the cement or concrete "stickier" with less sag for rendering) might inhibit Permaflex's ability to "bond" into the concrete. I'm assuming it bonds by flowing into pore space?!

- Wayne, will call Sanitred and find out what they recommend.

Daz 1
09-21-2005, 02:53 PM
I have finish a pond thats not on your list and i don`t know if it`s been used over there which is polypropylene, 6m thick and mine was installed on site on a standard concrete base,backfilled with concrete and filled with water at the same time, above ground was a case of following the liner with bricks and blocks.
Dave.

Ronin-Koi
09-22-2005, 02:01 PM
I have finish a pond thats not on your list and i don`t know if it`s been used over there which is polypropylene, 6m thick and mine was installed on site on a standard concrete base,backfilled with concrete and filled with water at the same time, above ground was a case of following the liner with bricks and blocks.
Dave. Dave,
That's the first pond I'ver seen built that way... very impressive. Is this a common method of pond building over in the UK? It looks like the polypropylene is a preformed shape? Or do you get sheets and somehow seam them together? It has a very nice clean look. Also, your above ground wall looks pretty tall. How tall is it and how deep total? How many gallons?

My favorite part of course is that large viewing window! I didn't think one would be possible on mine when I originally planned on EPDM liner... but now that Sanitred is starting to look more like my preferred option... hmmm!

- Wayne, Thanks Dave for sharing his awesome pond.

Koi is the Best
09-22-2005, 02:21 PM
I have finish a pond thats not on your list and i don`t know if it`s been used over there which is polypropylene, 6m thick and mine was installed on site on a standard concrete base,backfilled with concrete and filled with water at the same time, above ground was a case of following the liner with bricks and blocks.
Dave.

Must have more pictures, that is way nice....

Daz 1
09-22-2005, 02:37 PM
It`s not overly common over here but it`s now taking off.
My pond is 8000 gallons(uk) i have attached a few more pics of the installation to give you a better idea of how it went together.
Dave.

Moneypit
09-26-2005, 01:39 PM
Wayne,

You have got me curious about Sanitred, I have been looking around on the net and I do not find allot about using it for a pond sealer mostly basements, is there a track record of it being used as a pond sealer?
I have been planning on using CIM1000 on mine but if there is another product that is less expensive and will work as well I might consider it :thinking:

Stacey

Meg
09-26-2005, 01:46 PM
Wayne,

You have got me curious about Sanitred, I have been looking around on the net and I do not find allot about using it for a pond sealer mostly basements, is there a track record of it being used as a pond sealer?
I have been planning on using CIM1000 on mine but if there is another product that is less expensive and will work as well I might consider it :thinking:

Stacey
check out gOOse's pond on the construction site, it looks great! or Bob in CA...WoW! what a pond he's got

Dwight
11-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Wayne asked for this so now he has to do an update.
The plaster over concrete I'm using is exactly the same process as swimming pool plaster. It's powdered marble with Portland cement ( don't know ratios ). It's applied by gun , like gunnite , or by hand like stucco or wall plaster. It's pretty cheep compared to polyurea and epoxy and can last 20+ yrs. Our simming pool is 20 yrs old and still holding water fine. We got an estimate on replastering it ( stains and hairline cracks in the surface ) and it was $2000 to prep and replaster the whole pool ( 18,000 gal ). I imagine a small application like a small pond could be done by an ameture but I'm not willing to try. The stuff is really tuff as anyone with a pool can attest to. It can be sanded , brushed and acid washed. The biggest drawback I see is it takes forever to get rid of all the marble dust and for the pH to stabalize ( forever is measured in weeks ). The normal application is to wait for the concrete shell to dry enough to stabalize , usually a day or two depending on humidity and temperature. The plaster is then applied to a wet ( with a hose ) concrete surface and allowed to dry for 12 to 24 hrs. The pond / pool is then filled and the plaster finishes curing underwater. I usually wait another 24 hrs and add a massive oherdose ou muratic acid ( dilute HCl ) and this helps with the suspended marble. You can add color to the plaster ( all of ours is dark grey ) which mwkes it even more usefull. I've seen it done in a dark marble tone that made it very hard to believe it was plaster and not some form of rock.
Dwight

boggen
11-16-2005, 06:26 AM
mud ponds.... hhmmsss just mud / clay holding water

i realize concrete itself hasn't been label beyond having it plastered / stucko etc.... there are many additives that can be added...

--coloring
--pebbles / color rocks etc...
--fiberglass strands... used to help strengthen concrete itself to make it stronger. pending on application rebar may not be required. ((fiber glass strands can stick out and scrap you. most applications seen some sort of rendering of plaster / stucko / what not applied over))
--sealers mixed directly into mixing the concrete. not applied over type but mixed directly into concrete during pouring / applying. (( be carefull some sealers can be extremely harmfull to you or your fish. if not covered over))

concrete in itself gains strength / hardens over time. try and break 4" concrete just put in 1 year ago to something thats been put in 20 years ago. and you might be breaking out the jack hammer for the older concrete.

concrete in itself can crack from setteling and movement of the ground from freezing and thawing through the seasons. needing to get below frost line is suggestion to keep less cracks happening.

rebar is used in most situations. this is deal with bending (forget word) so when the ground does move the concrete moves without cracking.

concrete has a high ((duh forgot name)) that is within the concrete and gets released over time. using mutric acid will get rid of most but not all of the stuff and it will be relased over time as the concrete cures. during this time of curing = widely swinging PH happens from lows to highs. after a couple years the concrete will end up acting as a natural buffer keeping the PH at a non stop constant.

concrete by itself will not hold water directly. and normally needs some sort of sealer either mixed into the concrete during pouring or something applied over it.


rebar work, is easy enough DIYer doing
pouring the concrete for a DIYer, normally means either renting a mixer and having a few burly boys around to do the wheel barrowing and dealing with mixer. its sought to do a complete concrete job all at once and not portion of say a bottom then a day later do abit more. but doing say the bottom all at once. then doing the sides all at once.

block work. gets away from doing things all at once and goes more to a DIYer doing being able to do a little at a time and not having 3 plus folks around to help you out.

Floyd
12-07-2005, 02:47 PM
:thinking: Actually the info listed RE: Sani-Tred products are incorrect.

• “Recommended thickness 20 mils”? That's not correct
• Life Time Warranty (over 20 years history). Products will never bubble, chip, peel, crack, delaminate, or leak for the life of the structure.

All that is necessary is 2 coats of PermaFlex (240 sq’ per gal) and patching where you need it.

• BobinCA evidently “opted” to apply the LRB/TAV mixture over the entire surface of his pond which is fine, but in this case “excessive”. This upped his price per sq’. If the gunnite applicators troweled the surface smoother or if someone used a flat squeegee when applying the LRB/TAV mixture the product consumption would be drastically cut. BobinCA over-applied for “his peace of mind”. Some believe “thicker the better”; sure but still not necessary.

• Price per gal = $80.85 (shipping not included; depends on quantity/weight)
• $00.67 per sq’ for 2 coats of PermaFlex (based on 5 gal pricing)
• LRB/TAV mixture is for patching joints, seams, cracks, holes, rough areas

The Sani-Tred application is extremely simple:
1. Prime using 1 coat of PermaFlex (240 sq’ per gal)
2. Patch joints, seams, cracks with LRB/TAV mixture
3. Topcoat with 1 coat of PermaFlex (240 sq’ per gal)

~Overall thickness is approx 14 mils (2 coats PermaFlex)

The only difference from one pond to another is simply the size (sq’) and the amount of patching required (if any).

EXAMPLE ~ BEFORE:
http://www.sanitred.com/101-0186_IMG.JPG

PRIME:
http://www.sanitred.com/c.JPG

PATCH:
http://www.sanitred.com/D.JPG

TOPCOAT ~ Finished:
http://www.sanitred.com/IM000139.JPG

Billy
12-07-2005, 04:07 PM
I used SaniTred on a inside plywood tank and it works great. I tapered the bottom so it slopes to the drain. I had a few cracks in the plywood bottom where the joints meet and used a filler that was a portland cement and acrylic mix. The SaniTred bondrd to it just fine.

MrHusband
12-07-2005, 04:18 PM
I used SaniTred on a inside plywood tank and it works great. I tapered the bottom so it slopes to the drain. I had a few cracks in the plywood bottom where the joints meet and used a filler that was a portland cement and acrylic mix. The SaniTred bondrd to it just fine.

Any pics before and after water?

Billy
12-07-2005, 04:20 PM
Coming soon to a thread near you. :D:

Any pics before and after water?

boggen
03-20-2006, 03:22 PM
bump

Eric Marsh
03-22-2006, 10:00 AM
GatorGard is a polyurea formulation. I don't know exactly what their formulation is but I believe that it may be a polyurea/polyurethane hybrid. When I get some time I'll try to double check and see whether that is true or not. I expect that GatorGard prices are more or less in line with other polyurea prices.

olygirl
03-23-2006, 12:38 AM
i used xypex. i have a concrete block walled pond with a poured concrete bottom. i used xypex, and am very pleased with the result. you can check it out at www.hi-dry.com. catherine

Harveythekoi
03-23-2006, 02:58 AM
i used xypex. i have a concrete block walled pond with a poured concrete bottom. i used xypex, and am very pleased with the result. you can check it out at www.hi-dry.com. catherine

What color is it? Or does it just leave the original color of the concrete or mortar?

Funny this thread should come back up as I'm looking to seal my top pond I fixed by mortaring it all.

Was thinking of three:

Drylok paint. Though I'm not to pleased with their techsupport.

Sanitred, cost is high and have to wait three weeks or more for the mortar to cure.

Thoroghseal, I like this option because it's fairly cheap and can be dyed black with normal concrete dyes. Plus it can be applied to newly done concrete.

Garrett

slackjeep
03-23-2006, 01:45 PM
The one option not mentioned on this thread is Fabseal. Drop-in 30 ml rubber liners. I used one for an indoor holding tank. Very nice. Tough too. I'm considering it for my pond rebuild as they can make it any way I want it. Think of it: DIY! Inexpensive! No folds! Easy to hook up skimmers, bottom drains, and anything else.

http://www.fabseal.com

This looks interesting, however, what I read is they make it into a flat sheet. How then would you avoid folds in a pond? :confused:

Farmboy
03-23-2006, 04:03 PM
I'm having one fabricated as we speak...pretty excited...oval pond, 30 ft x 10 ft x 6 ft deep, 3 drains, 7 jets and 2 skimmers
One piece, drop in...no ( well few) wrinkles...I hope.
Really nice folks to work with.

slackjeep
03-23-2006, 04:33 PM
I'm having one fabricated as we speak...pretty excited...oval pond, 30 ft x 10 ft x 6 ft deep, 3 drains, 7 jets and 2 skimmers
One piece, drop in...no ( well few) wrinkles...I hope.
Really nice folks to work with.

Do you have to give exact dimensions and BD, TPR, skimmer dimensions or do you just cut out those areas as you would with regular EPDM liner?

I guess I can call them but I"m at work right now. :wacko:

kntry
03-23-2006, 08:23 PM
I was going to ask the same questions.

Sugarloafkoi
03-23-2006, 08:40 PM
I am going to use sani-tred on my tanks. I love the stuff. I have seen it on ponds, and used it to repair som fiberglass tanks.

Matt

Moneypit
03-23-2006, 08:51 PM
I plan on using Sani-tred on my ponds as well :yes:

Farmboy
03-23-2006, 09:06 PM
It's just a normal liner...without the extra folds in the corners.
Drains, jets scimmers all fitted as normal.
The material is only 30 micron...so it's not as thick...but supposed to be tough.
We'll see. I think it's worth a try...
Reflecting on my project...I should've made the ends of my oval a set diameter, made the sides parallel and so made the measuring/drawing of the liner much more exact.
I mean...imagine an oval with an overall length of 24ft. 12 feet wide in middle portion. even bottom depth... 6ft radius turns at either end....that's a snap to draw, and have it match exactly.
Mine was made just as I felt like building it, as I went along ( much like how I live life, I guess) so the dimensions are much harder to convey to FabSeal.
They need a center point on the top plan and then measurements out to the walls from that point.
Then, directly below that central point....on the bottom plan, the same.
Thus the 2 plans can be superimposed, one on the other to create a 3-d visual.

Farmboy
03-23-2006, 09:10 PM
Oops..just saw Karl's question re. the cost.
$1900
I had a 3ft extra side flap added on all round the top edge to accomodate my design on the wall top

olygirl
03-23-2006, 09:16 PM
it comes in either light grey or white. i used the light grey, but added some charcoal colored concrete color. you mix it up and apply it with a big concrete brush. it sets up really fast. you need to spray it with a mist of water to keep it damp 3-4 times a day for 3 days. i am very pleased. if you are interested in pics, i am on the road right now, but when i get home i will post some pictures. this is the same stuff that luke frisbee used on his lake. my pond is 14 x 11 x 6 feet deep. it cost me about $400.00.

savannahrobinson
03-23-2006, 11:19 PM
Hecht didn't work for me. Bubbled up, and didn't seal.

Harveythekoi
03-23-2006, 11:32 PM
A lot of that had to do with I found a local supplier. It wasn't the cheapest but I wanted a black coating and wanted to stay away from cement products that could break down over time. Plus this is a flexible coating so that should increase it's chance of success.

I'll post pics on my thread when I get to doing it. The mortar has to cure a bit more. I'll also report back here on ease of use and coverage etc.

Garrett

HansJ
03-27-2006, 11:09 PM
I don't know anything about this liner, but I found it surfing. $1.90/sqft for custom fitted.

http://www.pearlsofparadise.com/Pond%20Liners.htm

Hans

BobinCA
03-27-2006, 11:41 PM
A lot of that had to do with I found a local supplier. It wasn't the cheapest but I wanted a black coating and wanted to stay away from cement products that could break down over time. Plus this is a flexible coating so that should increase it's chance of success.

I'll post pics on my thread when I get to doing it. The mortar has to cure a bit more. I'll also report back here on ease of use and coverage etc.

Garrett

Did you see any inherent advantage of the pond armor product as compared to the Sani-tred products? I do know that they are both DIY projects...

What exactly did you have to seal? I dont remember your mentioning to me that any part of your pond system needed sealing???

Bob (in CA)

Harveythekoi
03-28-2006, 02:16 AM
The Permaflex failed on the liner fix. Not surprising as it was not what it's intended for.

I went with the pond armor because I could get it locally. Time will tell if it was the right move.

Garrett

Ronin-Koi
04-09-2006, 02:23 PM
In HarveythKoi's construction thread: http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12806
See the recent posting:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12806&page=19&pp=40

I asked Garrett the following (I had missed BobinCa's similar question in this thread) if he could compare Sanitred Permaflex and Pond Armor coatings since he used both products on the same pond (although on different substrates).

Garrett replied:
"Having used both and knowing some or all of you are coating block or other rough surfaces I'd have to say Sanitred would be the easier of the two. If the surfaces were smooth it would be a toss up.

Both need to be mixed and have a limited working time. Sanitred seems a little thinner when first mixed, more like paint, and will go on fairly fast. It's a three part process though, primer, filler and then finish coat. And the rougher the surface the more product you'll need. I believe the coats need to applied within a certain time frame, once fully cured it won't bond to itself.

Pond Armor is a little thicker when first mixed and really needs to be rolled or squeegied on to get it thin. This is important to get the max coverage. But the problems I had with it pin holing on a rough surface probably would happen on block too. Plus all the mortar joints would eat up more product. As for applying other coats after curing this product seems like it would work better.

Both should be applied over a dry cured surface so allow a month after the last of the concrete work.

Pipe penetrations do need to be addressed. I wouldn't feel comfortable using either directly onto plastic and expecting a permanent bond. All these situations are different and need to be addressed individually.

To save on either product a skim coat could be put over the rough block or concrete. A plaster type product would have to be used because of the really fine sand. (I think that's what they're doing to Stephens pond to avoid pin holes)

As far as finish I like the Pond Armor, the epoxy coat seems bullet proof. Some of the Sanitred that was on the rock and concrete work I was able to peel off when demoing it. It stayed pretty rubbery and didn't bond all that well. Part of this I'm sure was the prep done to the old mortar work etc.

One thing I will say about these or any coating is the prep work on the surface is important, let me repeat, it's important. Don't just expect to mix and apply without serious work put into that. I'd go so far as a wash with Phosphoric acid to eat any concrete dust up. For an older surface I'd use Muratic to etch it deeper.

Hope I answered your questions.

Garrett"

PondArmor, rightfully so, emphasizes the following:
" Garrett is absolutely correct when he emphasizes PREP work....You job is only going to be as good as your prep. Don't be in a rush at any stage of your project, no matter what that stage is."

- Wayne, will camp out in his pond after it is sealed.

PondArmor
04-10-2006, 12:31 AM
Hi, Ronin-Koi has invited me to come here and post a little more information about Pond Shield. It's tough for a manufacturer to post in threads such as these because first and foremost these forums are for community information sharing and sometimes the moderators frown on us posting in a manner that emulates advertising. With that said, I will be happy to answer any questions any of you have about Pond Armor products. You can either ask them here or PM and ask there. If you PM I will be happy to give you my 800 number and you can contact me that way as well. If any of you would like a small sample of Pond Shield, just PM and we'll make arrangements.

I know there are a few things that everyone is concerned about when it comes to choosing the correct coating. I will stress again that your finished job will only be as good as your prep work (acid etching, sanding, cleaning, etc.). Once you finish your prep work you are left with the abilities of the coating to serve you and your pond in the years to come. Pond Shield has been designed for very long life, in fact if you prepare the surface area properly and you apply the coating properly there is no reason why you cannot get 25+ years of service out of it. (Amortize your cost of materials now) All you need to do is make sure nothing adversely affects the coating. Like a tree pushing its roots up through the pond or something of the like.

I have been asked how well Pond Shield bonds to the surface it is applied to. We did extensive lab testing and found that when tested, the tensile bond strength exceeded the internal strength of the concrete it was applied to. Simply put, when we tried to pull the cured epoxy off, the concrete broke apart instead. What this means for a consumer is that where other coatings can peel or crack off, Pond Shield is designed not to. If you ask me for a sample, you will get an unmixed sample that you can mix and try for yourself.

Pond Shield is also non-toxic. We specifically have it tested in its mixed uncured state to ensure anyone applying it and filling their pond before it cures will not have to worry about harming their fish or plant life. We state in our instructions that one should wait 72 hours before filling their pond. This was written this way to ensure that the coating had cured before water and fish were put in only because introducing water before curing takes place can and I emphasize can cause an epoxy blush. Epoxy blush is nothing serious and can easily be corrected, but I mention the 72 hour instruction so those who are familiar with our instructions understand this not to be an inconsistency.

Garret mention that he felt Pond Shield (Pond Armor is the company name) is pretty bullet proof. Though we have not tested that ;) is does cure into a hard enough shell to resist strike damage but still retain enough elasticity as to not mimic hairline cracks that can form in concrete or mortar. If for instance, you had a tree push through your pond, you could do repairs and then spot touch up Pond Shield. It would not be necessary to recoat the entire pond.

Some North Eastern people shy away from concrete ponds. There is always worry about expansion and contraction and the like and of course the worry of a coating failure. Pond Shield has been tested down to -78 degrees F and up to 140 degrees F. It withstood the punishment.

Pond Shield is designed to be thick. Thick enough to be applied on vertical or upside-down surfaces and cure out at the 10 mil thickness that you applied at. Pond Shield does not have to be applied thicker to work. It just shouldn't be applied thinner than the recommended 10 mils. It does not require any primer or sealer to work. It has been designed as a stand alone product.

Finally, for this post anyways, is cost. $74.95 per quart and a half kit which covers 60 square feet at 10 mils. That's $1.24 per square foot. It may not be the least expensive material out there but not always is the least expensive, the best material. Again, amortize the cost out over 25 years and see what you have then. We also provide excellent customer support whether you purchased through us or one of our retailers. If you have questions, we will be there to answer them. If you are having difficulty, again, we will be there to help. Not all ponds are created equal. Evaluate your pond and its needs as well as your own needs and what you expect from the pond once it is finished.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Harveythekoi
04-10-2006, 12:50 AM
Sorry for any confusion.

I have to comment on the bonding though: After recently coating my small upper pond I had to rework some rocks because of flow dynamics. I was using a diamond grinder and had to cut across some of the recently applied Pond Shield. It didn't budge. You could clearly see the cross section where it bonded and there was no delamination. So this stuff in fact does bond that well.

Garrett

Moneypit
05-15-2006, 11:04 PM
Anyone have anything to add to this thread?

Meg
05-15-2006, 11:36 PM
Anyone have anything to add to this thread?
to late, your sani-tred is on the truck heading your way :neener:

dcny
05-15-2006, 11:37 PM
Maybe Kent could add something about Lava Liner.

Moneypit
05-15-2006, 11:44 PM
to late, your sani-tred is on the truck heading your way :neener:

Yes it is I can't wait :no: Meg did you have to acid wash your block and concrete before applying the Sanitred :confused:

Meg
05-16-2006, 12:07 AM
Yes it is I can't wait :no: Meg did you have to acid wash your block and concrete before applying the Sanitred :confused:
:no: :D:

farne230
05-17-2006, 08:35 AM
How long must you wait after gunite placement before applying a polyurea product?

Sumthinfishys
05-17-2006, 09:24 AM
Ive been to Matts ( sugarLoaf) Facility and I LOVE the finish you get with Sani-Tread. It is Awesome, Im soo excited to be using it on my new pond im building in july.I have total convidence in it and love the feel of the insides of the tanks its on.Its like a pond liner has been sprayed on with no wrikles,folds,rough spots and it looks like it really graps hold of the concrete.I was very impressed with it and the price is awesome too.

Mike C

polypro
05-18-2006, 05:35 AM
How long must you wait after gunite placement before applying a polyurea product?

This question does not have a specific answer. As with any conventional type of coating over a cementitious product, you need to be concerned with how much moisture has left the gunite. There is an older paramenter that says you must wait 28 days, however, this is for purposes of deeming (more so for conventional concrete) proper curing for the use of structural support. Polyurea systems, like other coatings, do not require that the gunite be cured to a degree that it is deemed ready to provide support, therefore, there are instances in which you can coat over it much sooner. There are various test methods and pieces of equipment that can be used to determine the amount of moisture being expelled, and currently present in gunite that would indicate to a contractor that the surface can be coated. There are also moisture barrier and surface "force cure" agents that can be applied to speed the process up even further. Some methods claim that they enable the surface to be coated within one day, although there seems to be much debate over this. Other factors that would also come into play are weather conditions during the cure process. Overall, I would say you would typically find people answering between the range of one to four weeks.

-Sean Boeger

vipldy
06-13-2006, 08:55 PM
What have you now used and how is working for you? Tips would be great :yes:


Marie :)

vipldy
07-05-2006, 10:32 AM
Bump Bump :yes:

Marie :)

vipldy
07-05-2006, 10:38 AM
What coatings have been used in the colder parts where there is a freeze and thaw and has worked???? We need to sticky this thread as coatings are so popular :yes:


Marie :)

polypro
07-06-2006, 08:37 PM
What coatings have been used in the colder parts where there is a freeze and thaw and has worked???? We need to sticky this thread as coatings are so popular :yes:


Marie :)

Most of the time when we refer to coatings for water containment in ponds, most people think of coatings that are going to be applied directly to concrete, gunite or concrete block. A consistent problem experienced with concrete structure in these various forms is cracking due to ground shift. In colder regions, ground shift can be much more pronounced because of freeze/thaw conditions.

The inherent problem with conventional “pond coatings,” is that they are usually deemed to be “thin set” coatings. The average total thickness of such coatings after curing will typically be in a range of 15 to 25 mils. That’s 15 to 25 thousandths of an inch. When the concrete structure the coatings are applied to cracks, the crack often transmits through the coating causing a leak.

Other concerns with conventional thin set coatings is their permeability rating. These coatings are directly reliant upon their adhesion to the surface they are applied to. If the coating does not have low permeability, water, over a period of time, can pass through these coatings and can possibly cause them to disbond from the surface they are applied to. Not all conventional thin set coatings are designed for “emersion service,” or rather constantly being submersed in liquid. Typically, the thicker the coating, the lower its permeability.

Ideal coatings systems that are available today for ponds are “high build,” many having the ability to be applied in unlimited thickness, but typically in excess of 80 mils, and often going as high as 250 mils (1/4 inch) or thicker if necessary. These high build coatings often have far greater tensile strength and elongation properties than their thin set counter parts. These higher properties are important to us because when concrete, gunite or block cracks underneath them, they often will not transmit the crack through the surface preventing the risk of a leak. These coatings would be favorable in a region where there is a lot of ground shift whether or not due to freeze/thaw. However, these high build coatings often retain their properties at extreme temperatures much better than thin set coatings which is an important factor when considering freeze/thaw conditions.

The majority of high build coatings on the market today are polyurethane, polyurea or hybrid polyurethane/polyurea combinations. Advanced applications can now make installation of these coatings independent of their structural shells with the use of geotextile fabrics. A high build coating using a geotextile fabric completely eliminates the risk of cracks transmitting through the coating because the coating itself is adhered to the geotextile, not the concrete shell. It is not possible to do this application with thin set coatings because of their inability to achieve the proper thickness requirements for such an application. Many people solely speak of polyurea systems rather than polyurethane systems due to the fact that pure polyurea systems typically have twice as many molecular chains combining when curing over that of a typical polyurethane. This can give pure polyurea systems lower permeability, superior tensile strength and elongation depending on formulation. All these things are important because a stronger, more elastic coating will last longer.

Unfortunately, the only drawback to the high build systems is their cost. People often want to know why they are so much more expensive than a coating they can buy and apply themselves. The raw materials themselves are very expensive, and the knowledge to apply them properly as well as the training to properly use the specialized equipment necessary for application is expensive. As far as waiting for prices to come down, I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon. All of the coatings discussed are petroleum based, and we all know what is happening to the price of oil.

As far as the do it yourself coatings discussed on this thread, they all work. However, the most important key to their success is proper surface preparation. In my sole, personal opinion, I believe that sellers of these D.I.Y. systems do not adequately or often completely skip crucial steps in properly preparing cementitious substrates, such as concrete, gunite and block. Any of the concrete or coatings organizations that professionals turn to for answers have stringent guidelines for surface preparation of concrete based substrates. Many of the D.I.Y. sellers do not even bother with suggesting preparation other than the surface is to be dry and free of dirt, oil, etc. Some suggest acid etching, which is often frowned upon in the coatings industry because of inadequacy in achieving a proper surface profile and the risk of leaving active acid on the substrate which if coated over will attack the coating and concrete. Mechanical preparation is almost always suggested. This can be done by means of grinding or abrasive blasting. Further preparation steps are knowing the vapor transmission rate of the substrate. If the vapor escaping the concrete is greater than acceptable levels, you will have adhesion issues. Salt contamination of the substrate can also cause adhesion failure if not neutralized. Also when and when not to prime is a key factor. The point is that there is much information left out or not adequately addressed in the directions of these products, and that is just for preparation, let alone proper application procedure. For those that have experienced problems, you fall into this category.

Lastly, all coatings fail. The only thing that sets them apart in this regard is the amount of time it takes for this to occur. It all boils down to what each individual expects from construction of their water feature and what their budget is. If you read all of this, you have more patience than I do!

-Sean

vipldy
07-06-2006, 09:26 PM
Most of the time when we refer to coatings for water containment in ponds, most people think of coatings that are going to be applied directly to concrete, gunite or concrete block. A consistent problem experienced with concrete structure in these various forms is cracking due to ground shift. In colder regions, ground shift can be much more pronounced because of freeze/thaw conditions.

The inherent problem with conventional “pond coatings,” is that they are usually deemed to be “thin set” coatings. The average total thickness of such coatings after curing will typically be in a range of 15 to 25 mils. That’s 15 to 25 thousandths of an inch. When the concrete structure the coatings are applied to cracks, the crack often transmits through the coating causing a leak.

Other concerns with conventional thin set coatings is their permeability rating. These coatings are directly reliant upon their adhesion to the surface they are applied to. If the coating does not have low permeability, water, over a period of time, can pass through these coatings and can possibly cause them to disbond from the surface they are applied to. Not all conventional thin set coatings are designed for “emersion service,” or rather constantly being submersed in liquid. Typically, the thicker the coating, the lower its permeability.

Ideal coatings systems that are available today for ponds are “high build,” many having the ability to be applied in unlimited thickness, but typically in excess of 80 mils, and often going as high as 250 mils (1/4 inch) or thicker if necessary. These high build coatings often have far greater tensile strength and elongation properties than their thin set counter parts. These higher properties are important to us because when concrete, gunite or block cracks underneath them, they often will not transmit the crack through the surface preventing the risk of a leak. These coatings would be favorable in a region where there is a lot of ground shift whether or not due to freeze/thaw. However, these high build coatings often retain their properties at extreme temperatures much better than thin set coatings which is an important factor when considering freeze/thaw conditions.

The majority of high build coatings on the market today are polyurethane, polyurea or hybrid polyurethane/polyurea combinations. Advanced applications can now make installation of these coatings independent of their structural shells with the use of geotextile fabrics. A high build coating using a geotextile fabric completely eliminates the risk of cracks transmitting through the coating because the coating itself is adhered to the geotextile, not the concrete shell. It is not possible to do this application with thin set coatings because of their inability to achieve the proper thickness requirements for such an application. Many people solely speak of polyurea systems rather than polyurethane systems due to the fact that pure polyurea systems typically have twice as many molecular chains combining when curing over that of a typical polyurethane. This can give pure polyurea systems lower permeability, superior tensile strength and elongation depending on formulation. All these things are important because a stronger, more elastic coating will last longer.

Unfortunately, the only drawback to the high build systems is their cost. People often want to know why they are so much more expensive than a coating they can buy and apply themselves. The raw materials themselves are very expensive, and the knowledge to apply them properly as well as the training to properly use the specialized equipment necessary for application is expensive. As far as waiting for prices to come down, I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon. All of the coatings discussed are petroleum based, and we all know what is happening to the price of oil.

As far as the do it yourself coatings discussed on this thread, they all work. However, the most important key to their success is proper surface preparation. In my sole, personal opinion, I believe that sellers of these D.I.Y. systems do not adequately or often completely skip crucial steps in properly preparing cementitious substrates, such as concrete, gunite and block. Any of the concrete or coatings organizations that professionals turn to for answers have stringent guidelines for surface preparation of concrete based substrates. Many of the D.I.Y. sellers do not even bother with suggesting preparation other than the surface is to be dry and free of dirt, oil, etc. Some suggest acid etching, which is often frowned upon in the coatings industry because of inadequacy in achieving a proper surface profile and the risk of leaving active acid on the substrate which if coated over will attack the coating and concrete. Mechanical preparation is almost always suggested. This can be done by means of grinding or abrasive blasting. Further preparation steps are knowing the vapor transmission rate of the substrate. If the vapor escaping the concrete is greater than acceptable levels, you will have adhesion issues. Salt contamination of the substrate can also cause adhesion failure if not neutralized. Also when and when not to prime is a key factor. The point is that there is much information left out or not adequately addressed in the directions of these products, and that is just for preparation, let alone proper application procedure. For those that have experienced problems, you fall into this category.

Lastly, all coatings fail. The only thing that sets them apart in this regard is the amount of time it takes for this to occur. It all boils down to what each individual expects from construction of their water feature and what their budget is. If you read all of this, you have more patience than I do!

-Sean
Wow lots you wrote and I read :eek: What to do :confused: Great writing though :yes:

Marie :)

Harveythekoi
07-07-2006, 12:52 AM
Even though it seems obvious from your name and your posts it would be good to disclose your affiliation with the poly industry. People will have a better idea where your coming from.

With that said, your last post was excellent. That pretty much sums up the coatings available to us. And the prep work is oh so important, that can't be emphasized enough.

DIY coatings are a crap shoot, I learned the hard way about prep work, but persistance paid off and I'm happy with the product. Then again I live in a moderate climate and have less worries about long term effects of weather.

Garrett

PondArmor
07-07-2006, 02:54 AM
We go over prep in our instructions as well as on our web site. Our main goal is to make sure that our customers have every chance at success. In fact, if you think you have a unique situation, we have that good old 800 number that you can use to contact us and we'll be happy to help you work through your specific pond prep and coating issues. Ask Marie or anyone else that has called us. We have no problem spending all the time it takes to help you out.



The inherent problem with conventional “pond coatings,” is that they are usually deemed to be “thin set” coatings. The average total thickness of such coatings after curing will typically be in a range of 15 to 25 mils. That’s 15 to 25 thousandths of an inch. When the concrete structure the coatings are applied to cracks, the crack often transmits through the coating causing a leak.

I would tend to disagree here. This statement basically blankets a wide variety of materials used as coatings and applies a very specific statement to them. In the world of epoxies, since they are so specific to my product, this statement would say that if the coating is too thin that the same crack that forms in concrete will pass through to the thin coating applied. While this can happen with some coatings, one has to remember that unless these sorts of structural failures have not been taken into account during the formulation of the coating in question, then failure will most likely result. However, if during the formulation process (of the epoxy), things like elongation stress factors of typical structures made of concrete (for instance) can be taken into account and adjustments can be made toto the epoxy formulation in order to over come those flaws in the structure it is applied to.

The definition of epoxy is: Any of various usually thermosetting resins capable of forming tight cross-linked polymer structures characterized by toughness, strong adhesion, and low shrinkage, used especially in surface coatings and adhesives.

Nowhere in that definition does one find the words rigid, stiff, or inflexible. Chemically speaking, the type and amount of XXXXX (trade secret) cross-links used that interconnect the polymer chains in our epoxy formulation provide Pond Shield with the ability to offer a certain amount of flexibility that allows it to be able to not mimic hairline cracks that can form in concrete or mortar, but still offer the strength needed to withstand varying degrees of impact force.

In essence the testing that has been done in the lab shows that the thickness we recommend in the application process will meet the requirements of the job while still allowing the product to remain affordable.

Butch

polypro
07-07-2006, 08:25 AM
Even though it seems obvious from your name and your posts it would be good to disclose your affiliation with the poly industry. People will have a better idea where your coming from.

With that said, your last post was excellent. That pretty much sums up the coatings available to us. And the prep work is oh so important, that can't be emphasized enough.

DIY coatings are a crap shoot, I learned the hard way about prep work, but persistance paid off and I'm happy with the product. Then again I live in a moderate climate and have less worries about long term effects of weather.

Garrett

Garrett,

I have been hanging out with you guys on koiphen for a little over a year now. I have stated in several of my posts who I am and what I do, so I feel that most people who stay current know who I am, especially from the east coast koi shows. I was personally asked to respond with regard to this thread, and as always, I do it for the spread of information only. I will never directly advertise on the forum.

Sean

polypro
07-07-2006, 08:49 AM
I would tend to disagree here. This statement basically blankets a wide variety of materials used as coatings and applies a very specific statement to them. In the world of epoxies, since they are so specific to my product, this statement would say that if the coating is too thin that the same crack that forms in concrete will pass through to the thin coating applied. While this can happen with some coatings, one has to remember that unless these sorts of structural failures have not been taken into account during the formulation of the coating in question, then failure will most likely result. However, if during the formulation process (of the epoxy), things like elongation stress factors of typical structures made of concrete (for instance) can be taken into account and adjustments can be made toto the epoxy formulation in order to over come those flaws in the structure it is applied to.


Butch,

I have seen cracks transmit through the most elastomeric of coatings, even polyurea systems with elongation properties exceeding 500%. When I refer to typical "pond coatings," I am referring to epoxies, polyurethanes, and polyureas for the most part. They have all experienced failures at some point due to cracking no matter how well designed. I will admit that I do not know the physical properties of your product though.

I will say however, that I had an opportunity to work with another contractor just recently who used your product to seal a waterfall that was designed with a million rocks if it had one. It worked very nicely and I was impressed.

Sean

Eric Marsh
07-07-2006, 09:16 AM
Butch, why don't you give us a run-down of the properties of your material and post some pictures of it being applied and used. I'm sure people would be interested.

vipldy
07-07-2006, 10:09 AM
Anyone ever hear of HERCO Fish Pond Coating ? Its a Neoprene Rubber Coating.

http://hechtrubber.com/Home/Home.htm


Marie :)

redhotkoi
07-07-2006, 10:28 AM
I think Stephen used it on his old pond

PondArmor
07-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Sean, thanks for the compliment. It's nice to see that a little debate can be just that and not turn into a bad argument :) How refreshing. I agree, coatings can fail. Anything can fail. However, my explanations serve only to drawn people away from their old "rigid" views of epoxies - yes that pun was on purpose.

Sorry Eric, I can only generalize here. Those are the rules of the forum and the courtesies I follow regarding advertising in general. All of that information (including pictures) can either be collected from our web site or you can call me and we can speak direct.

Butch

Ronin-Koi
07-07-2006, 11:21 AM
Sorry Eric, I can only generalize here. Those are the rules of the forum and the coutesies I follow regarding advertising in general. All of that information including pictures) can either be collected from our web site or you can call me and we can speak direct.Hi Butch (and others),

You have mentioned several times that you don't want to provide direct "sales" info or "advertise" on this forum. I do not think it is against the rules as it relates to this thread. The whole point of this thread is to allow people to understand the various pond sealing and lining options. The more information, the better. Perhaps such restrictions on promoting oneself was part of other forums, but I do not think it is part of this forum as it is very relevant to this thread.

If you wanted to directly advertise your product (with no contribution to a discussion, such as this thread), then there is a trader forum linked on the main page for that purpose.

The only time where this has been a problem that I know about was when a representative from one of the coatings companies joined the forum and pretended to be a happy user which was deceiving as this person never discussed his affiliation with the sealing product. :mad:

- Wayne, enjoying and learning from the detailed discussions from the pros. :cool:

PondArmor
07-07-2006, 11:53 AM
While that could quite possibly be true here Ronin, I still refrain from it. My web site address has been listed several times in varying threads. At risk of having this reply be removed, I'll list it here myself as well:

Pond Armor Web Site (http://www.pondarmor.com)

In an effort to keep from duplicating what could turn into just about everything on my web site, I would simply invite anyone wanting more information to just go visit it and gather it there. It's only a click away :)
Butch

PleakPond
07-07-2006, 12:12 PM
Anyone ever hear of HERCO Fish Pond Coating ? Its a Neoprene Rubber Coating.

http://hechtrubber.com/Home/Home.htm


Marie :)


I might be hallucinating, but I think I remember Savannah once posting that she used Hecht. Whatever coating it was she used, I don't think she was impressed.

Ronin-Koi
07-07-2006, 12:25 PM
I might be hallucinating, but I think I remember Savannah once posting that she used Hecht. Whatever coating it was she used, I don't think she was impressed.Hecht is included in the list of sealer and lining options way back in post #1 which I will try to update at some point? Here is part of what is said in that post above:

" Pros: advertised qualities sound great.

Cons: reports on Koiphen indicate quite a few users have experienced pealing of the coating after a year or two of use. Undetermined if proper application procedures were used. Another user reported no problems after several years.

Here is a recent thread on Hecht:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24716 (showthread.php?t=24716) "

Both Stephen and Savannah indicate issues with the coating.

- Wayne, will not be using it.

woodyaht
07-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Gotta couple of questions that I'm not clear on:
Is fiberglass a viable option in the U.S.? From what I've read, it is not advisable to DIY fiberglass; however, we don't have anyone in the U.S. doing it for ponds, do we? (And why is that, I wonder? I bet some of the polyurea installers would be installing fiberglass if they thought it was a better option.)
This is rather basic, but I don't know the "why": why are swimming-pool-type finishes not used? They obviously hold water, but when people convert pools to ponds, they seem to put on a different liner. Is the surface bad for koi?


I guess I missed this thread somehow :thinking:

My pond is fiberglass, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Nothing better in my eyes. As stated earlier most of the stuff available for ponds are just coatings. They don't have much strength. But when your coating a structure like block walls, and such there isn't much of a need for strength. There is only 1/8" of fiberglass in the bottom of my pond (directly to the dirt) and on the walls. The walls of my pond were formed with 1/4" cement board. so my walls over-all are about 3/8" thick. There's not much else available that can compare to that and still have the strength that glass does. My pond, from start of digging to tossing fish in was a little over 2 weeks, and most of one of the weeks was rain. Took me a while to do the finsih stone work, but all in all it is a very fast and efficient product. Another nice thing, is if I wanted to double the size of my pond, I could digg out where I wanted, cut out the end wall, and start glassing again, and in a week or so, have a pond twice my original size. not much else will let you do that with that kind of speed.

Depending on the job, fiberglass is not that expsensive, my price to glass a pond is in the same ball park as polyurea.
I used to do tons of fiberglass fabrication, and all my work is hand layed fiberglass, no chopper gun here, that's why I can get away with only 1/8" of glass in my pond, it's a combination of using the correct materials and hand laying it.

vipldy
07-07-2006, 01:48 PM
I guess I missed this thread somehow :thinking:

My pond is fiberglass, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Nothing better in my eyes. As stated earlier most of the stuff available for ponds are just coatings. They don't have much strength. But when your coating a structure like block walls, and such there isn't much of a need for strength. There is only 1/8" of fiberglass in the bottom of my pond (directly to the dirt) and on the walls. The walls of my pond were formed with 1/4" cement board. so my walls over-all are about 3/8" thick. There's not much else available that can compare to that and still have the strength that glass does. My pond, from start of digging to tossing fish in was a little over 2 weeks, and most of one of the weeks was rain. Took me a while to do the finsih stone work, but all in all it is a very fast and efficient product. Another nice thing, is if I wanted to double the size of my pond, I could digg out where I wanted, cut out the end wall, and start glassing again, and in a week or so, have a pond twice my original size. not much else will let you do that with that kind of speed.

Depending on the job, fiberglass is not that expsensive, my price to glass a pond is in the same ball park as polyurea.
I used to do tons of fiberglass fabrication, and all my work is hand layed fiberglass, no chopper gun here, that's why I can get away with only 1/8" of glass in my pond, it's a combination of using the correct materials and hand laying it.

Sounds good but not all people feel polyurea is inexpensive :no: I was quoted something like $6000.00 for polyurea and its just not in the budget :no:

Marie :)

Ryan S.
07-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Hecht is included in the list of sealer and lining options way back in post #1 which I will try to update at some point? Here is part of what is said in that post above:

" Pros: advertised qualities sound great.

Cons: reports on Koiphen indicate quite a few users have experienced pealing of the coating after a year or two of use. Undetermined if proper application procedures were used. Another user reported no problems after several years.

Here is a recent thread on Hecht:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24716 (showthread.php?t=24716) "

Both Stephen and Savannah indicate issues with the coating.

- Wayne, will not be using it.


In fairness Hecht brand, only the installation methods that were done correctly should be considered. If you skip the primer and it peels... well thats kinda expected.

I see pools all over the place with paints and sealers that hold up fine, not sure why such elaborate and expensive coatings are needed for ponds that are not required for pools?

Eric Marsh
07-07-2006, 07:07 PM
Sorry Eric, I can only generalize here. Those are the rules of the forum and the courtesies I follow regarding advertising in general. All of that information (including pictures) can either be collected from our web site or you can call me and we can speak direct.

Butch

Personally I don't think that providing informational material is necessarly advertising. It can be benifical to all because an informed consumer is a wise consumer. I'm just curious because I like to know what other people are doing. There are a variety of options out there and it's good to be familier with them.

PondArmor
07-07-2006, 07:46 PM
Personally I don't think that providing informational material is necessarly advertising. It can be benifical to all because an informed consumer is a wise consumer. I'm just curious because I like to know what other people are doing. There are a variety of options out there and it's good to be familier with them.

Eric, really, I am not sure why you find it necessary to grind me on this point. I posted my web address and that's where I house all of my information. As I said before, it's only a click away and just for added measure I don't charge anyone to visit it so the information is technically shared. Go click on the link above and read to your hearts content.

Butch

Eric Marsh
07-07-2006, 08:13 PM
Eric, really, I am not sure why you find it necessary to grind me on this point. I posted my web address and that's where I house all of my information. As I said before, it's only a click away and just for added measure I don't charge anyone to visit it so the information is technically shared. Go click on the link above and read to your hearts content.

Butch

I wasn't really trying to grind you - just expressing my opinion.

vipldy
07-14-2006, 11:15 AM
Thank you Justin :yes:

Marie :)

Rich L
07-27-2006, 06:44 PM
I've seen several fiberglass ponds out here. Most of them were installed with a chopper gun. Only problem I saw with one was clay dirt sagging behind a 14’ X 6’ vertical wall over about 8 years. Swimming pool manufacturers avoid that by laying a piece of 2 or 3” ABS and covering that with fiberglass to act as a girder along large flat components. Works fine and the cost of installation is higher than polyurea if you want good structual.

One hobbyist applied fiberglass over cement block. It leaked at first but the leaking stopped when he applied a second coat of fiberglass. Don’t know what it cost him.

woodyaht
07-30-2006, 01:19 PM
I've seen several fiberglass ponds out here. Most of them were installed with a chopper gun. Only problem I saw with one was clay dirt sagging behind a 14’ X 6’ vertical wall over about 8 years. Swimming pool manufacturers avoid that by laying a piece of 2 or 3” ABS and covering that with fiberglass to act as a girder along large flat components. Works fine and the cost of installation is higher than polyurea if you want good structual.

One hobbyist applied fiberglass over cement block. It leaked at first but the leaking stopped when he applied a second coat of fiberglass. Don’t know what it cost him.


A properly layed fiberglass lay up will not leak, and shouldnn't sag. The biggest mistake most people make is not using enough fiberglass, as well as the wrong cloth. There is many types of cloth available, and very few people want to fork out the money for the proper cloth when doing DIY.
A chopper gun lay up should have at least 1/4" of thickness if the substrate it's being applied to is less than bullet proof. Using the proper cloth and hand laying it up, you can get away with about half that thickness on a marginal substrate.
As far as costs. for me to glass a pond by hand for a prospective customer, it is right in the same ballpark as polyurea, within $1-2 a Sq Ft.

midnight
08-01-2006, 05:28 PM
Hello Everyone, New member and invaluable site as I contemplate digging out my 4000 gallon liner pond and installing a 10,000+ gunite pond. My question is about the surfacing on the gunite prior to applying some type of sealer. Does the gunite have to be plastered with anything or can it be just the gunnite, after curing? I'm getting quotes from "gunite contractors" and it's one of their questions. thanks a lot and glad to be a member here-just invaluable information. Glenn

PondArmor
08-01-2006, 07:17 PM
Hi Midnight,
Gunnite applications are usually pretty rough. I have known some people to actually communicate with the people shooting the gunnite on and make them understand that the smoother the surface, the better and they have accomplished a pretty good surface. If not, a coating like Pond Shield will still bond to the surface but you might consider spraying the epoxy on. Squeegeeing the epoxy over an uneven surface will tend to use up material. At least with spraying it you can control the amount you lay down over areas like that.

If you are considering a rendering of concrete over the gunnite to smooth it out, you have to make sure that a very good bonding agent is used. I have consulted on many jobs where the rendering have either no bonding agent or a very poor one and the rendering has come loose from the wall. You can tell by tapping on it as there is a hollow sound behind it. Those areas have to be repaired prior to putting your coating on. Pond Shield for instance, has a tensile bond strength that exceeds the internal strength of the concrete, so the bond to the rendering would be great. However, if the rendering falls off, the coating will go with it.

If you want to find the best bonding agents, you can talk to local concrete comapnies, tile companies and even professional plasterers. Any of these people will know what works best in a situation like yours. If you're curious about our coatings, takle a peek at them at www.pondarmor.com
Butch

midnight
08-08-2006, 01:26 PM
thanks for all the advice, Butch. I'm still at the overwhelmed place but each piece of information I collect and add it to what I know keeps dropping it all into place--long way to go, but I'll get there. Glenn

vipldy
01-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Please people post your coating experience here and let's get this going again:)

Marie:)

jadigger
02-12-2007, 01:51 PM
somebody doing anything new?

vipldy
07-08-2007, 11:46 AM
We ended up doing Polyurea and love it!

Marie

drrich2
08-08-2007, 06:53 PM
Are any of the spray on liners appropriate to use on a big, bare hole (basically creating your own custom pre-formed pond)?

Richard.

Landon90
02-04-2008, 03:58 PM
Wayne, Nice job. Here's a table I did for a presentation. It doesn't include all of the products you cover, but it does compare the most popular:

http://homepage.mac.com/janetch/.Pictures/LinerComparisonChart.jpg

Im not sure about spray on ?polyura? but ive heard people can do it themselves possibly more of a paint brush thing though...and a friend and i made a concrete pond its owner installable

Eric Marsh
02-10-2008, 08:56 AM
Hello Everyone, New member and invaluable site as I contemplate digging out my 4000 gallon liner pond and installing a 10,000+ gunite pond. My question is about the surfacing on the gunite prior to applying some type of sealer. Does the gunite have to be plastered with anything or can it be just the gunnite, after curing? I'm getting quotes from "gunite contractors" and it's one of their questions. thanks a lot and glad to be a member here-just invaluable information. Glenn

Looks like this response is way out of date, but I came across the question and thought I'm post a response.

Most gunite contractors deliberately leave the finish rough so that the pool plaster will have a good bond. This is a real problem to anyone trying to apply a spray or roll on coating. If you can get the gunite people to give a smooth surface that is very helpful. Otherwise there are two options with polyurea. One is to apply a material to the gunite, such as thinset, mortar or pool plaster. The liner can then be applied to it. Another approach is to glue geotextile cloth to the gunite with polyurea and then coat the geotextile. This is a good solution if the pond is not too "swoopy", i.e. has clean square edges. In a pond with lots of rounded edges it can be difficult to get the geotextile to lay flat.

Eric Marsh
02-10-2008, 08:58 AM
Im not sure about spray on ?polyura? but ive heard people can do it themselves possibly more of a paint brush thing though...and a friend and i made a concrete pond its owner installable

I'd be pretty skeptical about any polyurea system that is not applied by a professional. While a think coat may seal, it really takes a thick coat to get the good physical strength that polyurea can deliver.