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Busy B
05-14-2004, 03:30 PM
JR can you explain

You mentioned different places that koi are grown in the states. You said the best bodies are kept in the North (I'm about as North as you can get ;) ) biggest are in the South...something about the Carolina's...can't find your exact post. What's your reasoning behind this? Is it natural water quality, median temperature, elevation....what?

stephen
05-14-2004, 03:40 PM
BB - "His Honor" could have been referring to Japan.

k

Busy B
05-14-2004, 03:59 PM
Yes I guess it's possible "His Honor" :p was referring to Japan but he had too many US States mentioned...Didn't make sense to me either...that's why I'm asking :)

Roddy Conrad
05-14-2004, 04:28 PM
Brady Brandwood of Lotus Land Koi farm in North Carolina, and Brett Rowley of www.brettsfishfarm.com in Liverpool, Texas, are the most respected USA domestic koi breeding programs for high quality koi.

There are a lot of importers of quality koi from overseas. Many of the koi that are said to come from Japan actually come from someplace else but are sold through a Japanese breeder to get a higher price.

You need to develop trust in a dealer to buy koi from that dealer. There are so many issues! The first one is the adequacy of protection from the KHV virus, two of the very top Japanese koi importers have been hit hard by the KHV virus the last couple of years (KoiAuction and KoibyKeiren). Both of them handled the issue with class, alerted their customers, destroyed their stock that had been exposed, and are still considered to be a top choice for buying high quality koi. MANY other dealers had KHV wipeouts, some of them admitted it publically, many did not admit it in public until or unless someone (like Luke) made a really big issue of it. Only KoiAuction and KoibyKeiren handled it openly, honestly, and with some class.

I have enjoyed my personal koi purchases from Brett Rowley, from Quality Koi (outside Philadelphia in New Jersey), from Gene at KoiVillage, from KoiAuction, from Laguna Koi (through a shipment to a local dealer), and a few others as well. I don't discuss in public (OR PRIVATE) any purchases that did not go well, I may have just not hit it lucky with the few fish I obtained from that source, no one gets it right 100% of the time in koi sales.

You addressed this to JR, his opinion will surely be different, but I doubt he will recommend anyone in specific as a good high quality koi source, except for going yourself to Japan to pick out your koi. And I am sure that is a great way to do it for the folks that enthused about the hobby, I like the challenge of the science end of keeping the koi better than the challenge of winning an award for having a grand champion at a koi show.

keokoi
05-14-2004, 04:31 PM
I'm gonna try this one and J.R. would probably correct me but heck I'm here to learn. I think J.R. meant Southern Japan a couple of reasons come to mind.

1.) the mud ponds are much much bigger than in Niigata

2.)yes the weather is warmer more days of the year so they can harvest later which means more days in mud pond.

3.) the breeders there for example. Sakai Matsunosuke, Momotaro, And Ogata Oh yes I cannot forget my friend Nakayama San who works for Ogawa.

I truly believe because mud ponds are bigger and weather J.R. please correct me if I am wrong.

Oh I do have to point out even though Okayama Momotaro has mud ponds he can grow em big in his indoor huge 1500 metric ton pond.

If you look at who's koi grow very big its in the south except I think Omosako who I have heard through friends who just visitted in March said that he is breeding with some of his old bloodline to get bigger Shiro Utsuri.

I do recommend going to Japan but also to Sharpen your eye first because so many beautiful fish it forces you to raise your quality level. I went there my first real year of koi keeping and I was challenged to pick good koi. I learned a lot and it was priceless.

Ok J.R. please correct me if I am wrong so I can learn also. Keo :D

stephen
05-14-2004, 04:54 PM
Thanks Keo.

Very Well said Roddy. Everyone has different aspects of this hobby they enjoy more than others. You are going to know I am crazy now, I am very interested in mechanical filtration and water quality and clarity. I said interested, not expert or experienced. I am only into this particular obsession for a bit over a year now. I think in years to come , God willing, I may get quite good at it. This hobby has something for everyone.

Regards

Stephen

stephen
05-14-2004, 05:04 PM
By the way, I have already contacted Brady, and will contact Brett soon and get some of the best of their's to add to the herd.

I have 3 more coming from Kevin Pham as soon as the 2 I put in the q go into the main pond.

31" Momotaro Sanke with breeder certificate(see my avitar by Cindy
21" Beni Matsukawabake
And Carol fish of course http://www.koiphen.com/images/carol.wmv

Shortly thereafter, I will slowly be adding US bred fish and see if I can continue their fine progression when placed in my pond.

k

Busy B
05-14-2004, 06:18 PM
OK...I was totally confused (not uncommon) and thought he was talking about the States. And I'm glad for people stepping in and helping out. I haven't really entertained the idea of shipping (well a little) just because of the distance. I was told 36 hrs isn't the worst case scenerio but I know how some of my plants come in and it makes me nervous. Read another post somewhere of fish being stuck on the tarmac at the Anchorage airport. Another reason to ask that ? because why buy from a supplier in the "lower 48" when the shipment hits Anchorage first? I just may have to ? some of our visitors in the summer when the fish are in the river...

Do you think this fish would qualify as a GC?

http://www.kenaisalmonguide.com

I know it doesn't have much of a luster but the body confirmation is pretty good don't you think?....Ahhh head's kinda big... :p

JPR
05-14-2004, 06:26 PM
Sorry I missed this thread until now--

I was referring to koi raised in the USA. There are many reasons, at least generally, this observation. Genetics being one. But then again I've been judging koi shows around the country long enough to have seen the same lines in different areas and in different hands.

we also need to take into consideration that koi come in four different basic body types. This also is linked to genetics - retention of food carp and wild carp body characteristics. High humps, short bodies, dowm sloping heads, flat heads, tall bodies, torpedo bodies are all characteristics of four distinct body types.

But beyond this we the impact of environment. Koi are cold blooded animals who's metabolic rate is controlled by hormones. And the hormones are controlled by temperature ranges and diet. This is why carp grow differently in different parts of the world. And in the case of my comments, in different parts of North America. It is not a universal guarantee by an uncanny likelihood that Canadian koi will be smaller, Florida koi are large but tend not to be as colorful as long as North Carolina koi , etc. JR

koiingaround
05-14-2004, 06:27 PM
Busy...that is one heck of a big fish! lol :D

stephen
05-14-2004, 06:30 PM
Thanks JR. Excuse me while I pop into the trailer and grab a brewsky!! :D

k

Busy B
05-14-2004, 06:38 PM
Now if you look at that link JR..how can you say Canadian will be smaller? :D I know...I understand..cold temps...and the fish in the picture is definately genetics...Thanks for the reply....what about Washington State?

JPR
05-14-2004, 07:30 PM
Think about this for a minute, I think its interesting--

Fish are found everywhere in the world where there is water with some oxygen in it. And species have evolved and adapted to all water temperatures. But adaptation is not open ended. This is because metabolisms have evolved to operate in zones or ranges only.
So a deep sea tuna actually has perfect metabolic function at 40 - 55 F. Trout also are build for cold water. And little tropicals are found to function best in the 74F-86F.
Carp are SOOO adaptable and tolerant that we sometimes forget that they have a range too. If we believe the scientists, then that optimum metabolic range is 68 F to 78 F with all other temperature between 34F and 96 F being a survival range. But the plot thickens! Koi are creatures that are controlled by the four seasons. Since the beginning of their time on earth as a species, these animals have evolved to live and survive in a four season situation. So they breed in late spring, grow in summer, store nutrients in Fall and move into status/ reduced activity or dormancy in winter. This 20,000 year old plus genetic plan is hard to overcome in the 100 plus years we have had modern koi?
So when we move koi into different ranges we can get some noticeable long term effects. And the further the extreme the more noticeable. Make sense? JR

Busy B
05-15-2004, 01:07 PM
Does make sense but what are the long term effects? Stunted growth, color what?...And do they need to have periods of darkness?...What happens to them growing up here where the sun is out all summer?

JPR
05-15-2004, 07:54 PM
koi store energy. But they are not a bottomless pit of energy, so long winters can leave them 'running a quart low" so to speak. The light of spring, the water temperatures and the mix of diet quickly tell there bodies to put all energy into development of eggs and reproductive capacity. Once breeding occurs, the hormones shift again and all energy goes into cell growth. Since protein is a building block of cells its not surprising that the koi is conditioned by hormaonal shift and additional 'bug' intake to grow!
I would expect koi up there to have a higher death rate among teh young in spring, but stronger fish and very good colors, especially in the fall. I would also expect the fish to grow less as the peak growing season is likely shorter than say , North Carolina. JR

stephen
05-15-2004, 08:10 PM
JR - Your opinion on this please. As u know I am a newby PLUS. The last year I have maintained my pond temp in the 70-85 degree F temp range 24/7/365. Excellent growth and color so far but I seem to remember a post by one of you heros about a preferred dormant time. Is this indeed a proven thing or just a hypothesis deduced from Japanese climate conditions. This is not a challenge but a serious question from me. If they need to hiberate, any suggestions for how long?

Thank You

Stephen :)

JPR
05-15-2004, 09:40 PM
Hi Stephen, It is an Asian philosophy. And grounded in science.
In the eighties many British hobbyists began heating with teladyne pool and spa heaters. The idea was to get koi as big as possible as fast as possible and they already new that the rather cool water temperatures of England- you know, Autumn, winter and August! was keeping koi small.
So they went at it big time. The result was fat koi and egg problems in females.
The Taiwanese are serious hobbyists as group- like Japan, very much a wealthy guys hobby. They work very hard at giving koi a cool down period because the immune systems didn't seem as strong? The big fish brought in usually have beni problems after a year in very warm water. Hikkui and virus is very common there.
I'm not sure if you've followed my threads on this but I have introduced the science to the Asian four season animal concept. And it is surprisingly in sync with the idea.
I've worked for a year now on a presentation that identifies survival ranges in all parameters for the species and optimal ranges for nishikigoi. That is ,those ranges that mimic a seasonal cycle but do not present a life challenge to any of the individuals.
In theory a koi kept at warm temperatures 365 days a year will store reserves differently and females will not reabsorb eggs seasonally.
There is no doubt that wild carp have a more deliberate storage system than koi. Higher sugar levels more fluids, more glycogen in the kidney, better immune system etc. No one knows if that is due to inbreeding or nature not testing the survival range with enough 'vigor' in the case of koi? JR

Nicole
05-16-2004, 01:28 AM
Right. Very interesting stuff there.

(excitedly interrupting) On another note, 'nator please get a picture of the Beni Matsukawabaki posted soon. I have one, but it's the only one I've ever seen. I want to see yours!!!!!!! :p

Bill OTMS
05-16-2004, 07:31 AM
I'll show you mine if you show me yours :D

Nicole
05-16-2004, 11:27 AM
Sureee, but first let me verify that the subject matter is still fish. :D

stephen
05-16-2004, 11:37 AM
Thank Goodness! I can't remember where I placed the magnifying glass and tweezers! I like the fish idea better. Will post pics (fish) when available. :)

k

kntry
05-16-2004, 11:40 AM
If he'll show, I'll lend you my magnifying glass and tweezers!! Let the Judges decide!

Sandy

Nicole
05-16-2004, 12:41 PM
Oh Boy, You really ask for that one didn't ya, Bill?

Nicole
05-16-2004, 03:53 PM
Here is mine. I left the kohaku purchased on the same day in the photo so you can see how blue it actually is. At this time he is recognizable as pictured (6mos ago), but is true to his heritage with shifting patterns. He doesn't have sumi in his pectorals right now and the bridge across his mouth is beni.

Anyway, I went first. I want to see someone else's. :D

Bill OTMS
05-16-2004, 06:51 PM
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, the ole tweezer's joke. Remember, girth is important in this hobby. also. So break out the barbeque tongs. As with all show and tell...I'm the only one that has to be happy with its size...others can dream. :D

koiingaround
05-16-2004, 06:56 PM
I really hope we are talking about our ponds here!!! LOL :D