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Arid
09-14-2016, 04:35 AM
Hi all, I'm gearing up for this years spawn and I have a lovely doitsu sanke female ready to go but I cant decide on the male. I have 2 to choose from neither of which I would say are great quality however I live 400km from the nearest major center and don't have great access to better resources.
The two males I'm choosing between are a "shusui" and a sanke. The sanke's mother was a doitsu with great sumi, so still carries that gene but I'm not sure how this will carry on to the offspring. I only want to use one male as I don't want my female being beaten up to much and I don't have heaps of room for thousands of fry
Let me know what you think and I will make it happen!

Arid
09-14-2016, 05:11 AM
Here they are

Arid
09-14-2016, 05:12 AM
Shocking pics! I will get some better ones when I pull them for spawning. The female is the last one

delbert
09-14-2016, 06:10 AM
Good luck !! Which ever way you go

Matt24
09-14-2016, 11:19 AM
... The two males I'm choosing between are a "shusui" and a sanke. ... I only want to use one male as I don't want my female being beaten up to much and I don't have heaps of room for thousands of fry ....

Hi Aaron. The shusui male is a nice looking fish. I have a female that is similar. On the other hand, the male sanke is a better genetic match to the female.

It looks like the males are similar it size to the female or perhaps just a little larger. If you have a spawning container or pond that does not have any rocks or anything else hard or abrasive, you could probably use both males if you want. Using a vinyl lined pond or plastic tub, I've let my koi spawn several times using three (and once even four) males. I consider their relative sizes when doing this. I sometimes see a scale knocked off one of them, but I've never had them bet beat up in the process. One down-side to using both is that unless one of your fry has some blue on it, you may not know who the father is.

As for the number of fry, culling early and often can help keep the load under control. You could might get a some with scattered scales with either of these combinations, but that should be a minority. Hope all goes well, however you decide. Please keep us posted!

Arid
09-15-2016, 04:36 AM
Thanks for the response guys, If I did use the shusui male what sort of fry outcome do you think I can expect? would I get many shusui or would they just be random doitsu patterns?
Here is the shusui from a pic taken last year. His beni has always come and gone and never been stable.

Wombat
09-16-2016, 04:00 AM
G'day Arid, if you have a good kohaku I would use this as the male parent.

Matt24
09-19-2016, 09:51 PM
... If I did use the shusui male what sort of fry outcome do you think I can expect? would I get many shusui or would they just be random doitsu patterns? ...

My guess would be that you would get a mix of patterns given the crossing of dorsal and linear patterns. But that's just a guess, as I have not seen such a pairing tried.

Arid
10-04-2016, 05:19 AM
Hi all, I had the spawn take place today :) It went a little differently than what I was expecting. I tried to spawn my sanke female with the "shusui" (you see I use that term loosely)
My female was doing her best to seduce him and her dance in the spawning ropes was bordering on obscene! Unfortunately the male reminded me of myself at my first ever disco and didn't have a clue! Just hung around and was to scared to make eye contact with her. I added the sanke male I have (great sumi, terrible beni!) and the party really kicked off and I think old blue may of even got in on the action!
The ropes are now in the well seasoned incubating tank with plenty of sponge filters, once i get passed the first week of life I will start up the slow trickle filter.
Anyway I will keep you posted!

Matt24
10-04-2016, 09:22 PM
... I added the sanke male I have (great sumi, terrible beni!) and the party really kicked off and I think old blue may of even got in on the action!

Whatever works. Congratulations on the early start. I'm interested to see what you will get.

delbert
10-05-2016, 06:15 AM
I'll be watching to see how they do .
Good luck with the hatch

Arid
10-05-2016, 11:49 PM
Unfortunately at this point I believe that my eggs not viable. I'm not sure what has happened but think that I was a little to keen to get things happening and the males were not completely ready. Although the sanke performed well and the water conditions are perfect with zero Ammonia and Nitrite none of the eggs seem to be developing. Has anyone else experienced early spawns not working? When I say early, I'm about two weeks earlier than last year. The pond temp last year was 16c and this year is 14c I only went ahead with the spawn as I had some time off work to dedicate to it, needless to say I'm a little dissapointed at the moment but will keep watching to see if anything happens.

delbert
10-06-2016, 06:22 AM
A few years ago I had a earlier spawn than normal . The same pair spawned again 5 or so weeks later , it was a smaller spawn but it went good.

Hope you get a second round

Arid
10-07-2016, 03:03 AM
Thanks Delbert that gives me some hope. Do you think your female produced some new eggs in that time or was she not completely empty to start with?

delbert
10-07-2016, 06:20 AM
:shrug:
I'm not sure Arid .... She is a big old girl it could have gone either way

Matt24
10-07-2016, 09:57 PM
... Has anyone else experienced early spawns not working?

Sorry to hear that Aaron, but I suspect you'll have another shot with them with it being so early. The only completely infertile one I have seen was when females laid eggs in a pond with no male present.

14 C sounds pretty cool for spawning. Although I once had a couple of smaller koi that I did not want to spawn just occupying my little pond in late March, when it is normally way to cold here for spawning. But when 2 or 3 days of very unseasonably warm weather came along, they spawned with fertile eggs. I wish I had recorded the water temperature for the record, but I know it had to be unusually cool for a spawn. I dipped out all the eggs I could and then put in several larger koi to help eat the few eggs (or later, fry) that I missed. Still, six managed to hatch and grow large enough to not be eaten.

Does your female look empty (much thinner)? They can lay just some eggs and then stop if conditions are right for it. Once when the water was little cool 68 F (20 C) a spawn started, but a cool front caused the pond to drop to 65 F overnight. There only turned out to be a small number of eggs. I suspect the huge female laid no more than 20% of her eggs. Also once long ago, I had a small female start spawning in a pond with 4 larger males. When it got too rough, she would hide in a sort of cave behind a rock, where the big boys could not fit. (They seemed very agitated by this.) About three days later, she came out and laid some more eggs, then went back in the cave. And again, about three days later, she came out and laid the rest of her eggs in a third installment. Sometimes koi just don't follow the script.

Arid
10-09-2016, 07:56 PM
Hi Mat, It would appear now that the eggs were completely unfertilized. I too would of expected a small handful to actually be fertile and see some fry however there is absolutely nothing. I use a small IBC container for hatching at around 500ltrs (132 gallons) so they are pretty hard to miss if anything does hatch. When I say the water was cool, I mean the outside pond temp. I do raise the spawning tub to 20c to trigger the spawn.
My female is pretty thin now however she has a small belly and I hope she is still holding a few eggs. I will wait until the end of the year and try again. Either way I will be on the hunt for some nice broodstock next year.
They way I figure it, people are reluctant to sell me the sought of fish I want to keep. Even if they did sell them I probably couldn't afford them anyway. So, I will have to breed my own.
At least I will take some learning's from this and be a little more patient next time.