Montwila's 2013 KP Showas

[montwila]

In this opening post I would like to explain why I purchased so many fish. In addition to the reasons posted in the Kohaku thread. I really hope to be able to be able to maintain a journal of the fish (both Kohaku and Showas) their growth and developement. Many times people will post a progression of a single fish. Here I hope to educate myself on the developement of several fish (granted it is only one breeder). By having several fish from this growout in the same pond/system. We can all see how each fish developes and possibly how we might be able to select fish for our selves in the future.

Thank you again to Frank, Jim, Purdin and KP for bringing us all together.

[icu2]

:wtg: Can't wait to watch those showa's develop! For me, they seem to be one of the hardest
varieties to estimate what will they'll "do"... should be fun to watch!

:pullup:

[Billy Pounds]

Monte, mine will be here Friday.....woohoo

[Midorigoi]

Awesome group! 16 & 12 were on my list so I'll be watching this thread!! On the growout selection pictures, fish 29 looked to have odd proportions to me, but here it looks a lot better so that is :cool:

[Spartan]

I hope to educate myself on the developement of several fish (granted it is only one breeder). By having several fish from this growout in the same pond/system. We can all see how each fish developes and possibly how we might be able to select fish for our selves in the future.

If that's one of your goals, it would probably be of great value to see the oyagoi in this case. No doubt that others are curious as well. I did post a request for that to Frank in the original thread, but no luck so far...

[Cheryl]

Watching with interest!

Cheryl

[montwila]

Yes, Showa's are one of the hardest to predict but also to keep all three colors looking good at the same time if you are ever going to show them. I do have hopes for all of them. #39 is Everyones favorite but I am also really excited about #29 with the sumi on the nose. I hope it has a good personality to go with the nose dot. I know we asked about the oyagoi in the intial thread. After talking with my mentor we might not actually be able to figure this out. Even if we tried and had Purdins information it may be a mystery. I believe one grow out member picked up their fish at Purdin and was shown some of the oyagoi stock in a pond. However they also mentioned that these fish may have come from more than one spawning. That might explain why there is such as size difference, #12 @ 7.5" and #02 @ 9.5". However #02 is a real pig and all teenage boy. I hope he will grow to be huge because he ain't going to win any shows!

Without further delay. I am going to post individual posts of these fish so that all the pictures of the same fish are near each other and future readers will not have to search the entire thread for comparsin(sp) photo's.

[montwila]

Here is #02 I believe 9.5" even with a crummy angle on 4-10-13.

# 2 has been MIA from the lower pond since around the 4th of July 2013. #29 was also missing about this time. One of these two did get into the bottom drain's sieve and was found in the waste line after it had perished. No sickness had been seen prior to them disappearing. #2 did eat like a horse and had been growing some. It was also always looking for food on the surface near the edge. So It may have been taken by a predator and #29 being the smaller fish got caught in the drain line.

[montwila]

Here is Showa #12 at the small end coming in at 7.5" 4-10-13.

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262515&do=editpost ]

Here is #12 on 10-11-13 measuring a scant 8". So only 1/2" of growth since it arrived. It was pulled from the lower pond around Sept 1 because it did not appear to be growing and was not observed to be eating. So it was put in a smaller system with some fingerlings hoping it would be more aggressive towards food if it were in a tank of similar sized fish. It and #33 & #35 are still very shy and seldom eat. Despite the lousy pictures it still is in good shape as the beni is not breaking up like the other grow out fish that remained in the lower pond.

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262515&do=editpost ]

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262515&do=editpost ]

[montwila]

Here is Showa #16 at a middle weight of 8.5" 4-10-13.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262516&do=editpost

Here is #16 on 10-11-13 measuring at 11.5". I will apologize for the lousy photos. However you are able to see some of the changes. Like the other grow out fish that remained in the lower pond the changes are not good. On this one the motoguru is almost gone. The sumi over all has lightened. The beni pattern has remained but it to is lightening.

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?do=updatepost&p=2262516 ]

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?do=updatepost&p=2262516 ]

[montwila]

Here is Showa #29 with a tie for 8.0" 4-10-13.

This fish has been MIA since around the 4th of July and I believe was the one found in the sieves waste line referred to in Showa #02 post/update.

[montwila]

Finally #39 who is everyones favorite, tying at 8.0" 4-10-13

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262518&do=editpost]

Here is #39 on 10-11-13 at 11.0". Despite its growth being similar to the other fish on my lower pond it may have been better if it went to another person in the KP grow out. It has lost all of its motoguru and most of its sumi. The beni has begun to break up and lighten. The stress lines have disappeared after being placed back into the pond over the week end. It is a fairly healthy eater.


[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262518&do=editpost ]

[http://www.koiphen.com/forums/editpost.php?p=2262518&do=editpost ]

[icu2]

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

:pullup:

[jimfish98]

We need an update on these guys too.

[montwila]

Actually they were pulled and measured today.

Gonna have to work on the pictures.

[montwila]

The updated pictures have been added to each fishes individual post. So you will be able to compare the same fish with out having to flip back and forth between posts. The fish that do not have up dated photos (#02 and #29) have been lost to the bottom drain or predator I believe. These fish were not observed to have any health issues before they passed. Post #8 has some further explanation.

I am sure there will be a lot of questions about water and water quality and maybe even food. I will let them come instead of trying to predict how they will be asked.

I can be PM'd if you do not wish to post to this thread. However I may post the answer here.

[koisan]

Ok, I'll start with the question. What's your pond size and your feeding regime? Your koi gained girth but not length so I'm curious why this happened. How are your other koi doing, growth wise.

[rainblood]

Yikes

[jimfish98]

Girth vs length seems to be a thing with these grow outs. Mine was short and chunky, but has started to get longer and even itself out. Sumi going away seems to be common as well. I have seen mine leave and now come back, so time will tell on yours.

[montwila]

I'll start with Rain: As usual you have the ability to sum things up, short and in a hurry.

Koisan:
the lower pond is 6400 gallons and has had 20 fish in it this summer. All the fish are between 5 and 12". Most have grown in length by 3-4" this year. All have bulked up with the exception of the two Omosako Showa grow out fish. I feed up to what the filters can handle. That being said I try to feed multiple times per day. I do not keep records of daily amounts per pond. This year the filters cycled (from winter) in the middle of June. I began feeding what they would eat at each feeding in a timely manner. I did have to cut back for a couple of weeks around the middle of July. This was because of the fish (#29) that was found in the bottom drain I believe. It was virtually a skeleton by the time it was found in the sieves waste line. The filters were probably working, they just had a lot more protein to handle.

The other koi health wise came out of winter fairly well compared to other years.

[montwila]

Encouraging words Jim. I am afraid the beni is lost.

[kdh]

Is #39 veining from bowling?

[koisan]

Thanks. What type of food are you feeding and are you using a feeder? Frankly, I'm surprised to see that none of the grow out hit 18" so far. I thought some had pretty decent frame. :(

[icu2]

Frankly, I'm surprised to see that none of the grow out hit 18" so far. I thought some had pretty decent frame. :(

Don't forget we're in Washington state... S. Cal or Florida I think you might have a better chance. I could count the days my pond was over
70* ( and barely) on one hand, and now it's 53*. :shame:

[koisan]

Don't forget we're in Washington state... S. Cal or Florida I think you might have a better chance. I could count the days my pond was over
70* ( and barely) on one hand, and now it's 53*. :shame:

True...:doh:

[montwila]

Yes, KDH the veining is from bowling. It has cleared up now that it is back in the pond. I don't see any on any of the other fish.

Yes, Steve (#002) Thank you for the comment.

This pond did reach 72* for one day this summer. I think I had a week at 70* in that pond. Since I have been back from CA. the pond has been 50-54*F

Koisan: I am feeding KenZen and no I do not have a feeder. I would lose too much food to the skimmer.

[jimfish98]

Thanks. What type of food are you feeding and are you using a feeder? Frankly, I'm surprised to see that none of the grow out hit 18" so far. I thought some had pretty decent frame. :(

Mine was at 14 at last check. Warm FL waters and I could hit 18 by the time the one year mark comes up.

[montwila]

I am hoping for you Jim!

[koisan]

:horn: I'll be cheering for you.
Mine was at 14 at last check. Warm FL waters and I could hit 18 by the time the one year mark comes up.
Monte: how about sinking food or place a fine screen in front of your skimmer? Mine was the smallest in the herd and she actually feed well having the larger ones feeding around her. Maybe you need a friendly chag to lead the feeding? :)

[montwila]

Koisan:

I do a mix of kenzen in the lower pond. It includes both sinking and floating 7mm with some 5 mm floating also for the smaller fish (I had a 5" Ochiba in there I could not catch). I actually have a GR Chagoi that is the same size as the Purdins in that pond. Also a Shiro Utsuri who is about 14" and acts as the matriarch (if there actually is one amongst these fish) of the pond.

However you may have been referring to the feeding of the grow out fish that have not grown and were placed in the fingerling tank. They get a mix of floating and sinking in multiple sizes and brands. Some of the fish in this tank are 3" and the Purdins are the largest at 8+'. However a few of the Ochibas are almost as big. They have probably grown 30-40% in length since August. Same tank, same food. They just hang back and do not eat. The last week I have actually started tossing in a few kernals of kenzen 7mm sinking and the Showa will eat one of those. The pellet/kernal is too big for most of the fish in that tank to eat. That is why I tried it.

[koisan]

Koisan:

I do a mix of kenzen in the lower pond. It includes both sinking and floating 7mm with some 5 mm floating also for the smaller fish (I had a 5" Ochiba in there I could not catch). I actually have a GR Chagoi that is the same size as the Purdins in that pond. Also a Shiro Utsuri who is about 14" and acts as the matriarch (if there actually is one amongst these fish) of the pond.

However you may have been referring to the feeding of the grow out fish that have not grown and were placed in the fingerling tank. They get a mix of floating and sinking in multiple sizes and brands. Some of the fish in this tank are 3" and the Purdins are the largest at 8+'. However a few of the Ochibas are almost as big. They have probably grown 30-40% in length since August. Same tank, same food. They just hang back and do not eat. The last week I have actually started tossing in a few kernals of kenzen 7mm sinking and the Showa will eat one of those. The pellet/kernal is too big for most of the fish in that tank to eat. That is why I tried it.

We all have one of those koi that just won't feed no matter what you do... sorry. :( I do find that feeding them at around the same time of the day seemed to work the best as there seemed to be a biological trigger that get them excited right before feeding time when they know food is coming. :) I hope you will figure out what works best for you and your koi. Good Luck!

[montwila]

Thank you koisan:

Hopefully I will be able to get the QT/Hosp. tank sprayed soon. I have given up on trying to find "the leak".. Kinda the wrong description as it has never held water to begin with. Note to self: never cut the corners of your liner.

Anyway if I can warm them back up and they see 70* water then maybe they will put on some growth. Especially if they see the Ochibas passing them up.

[jimfish98]

Don't forget to get measurements and enter your grow outs into the Virtual Koi/Goldfish show, see how well your selecting and husbandry stacks against the others in the grow out.