Dry Stacked Block, Surface Bonding Cement, and Xypex C-1000 Admix Quarantine Tank

[Zac Penn]

WARNING: I am not a contractor and I do not believe this type of construction will pass a building code inspection! This is purely an experiment.

I have been interested in this type of build for a long time, and finally the wooden QT at my parents house started to rot away and they gave me the go ahead to tear it out and start from scratch. I have searched quite a bit for this type of application and I wasn't able to find someone using Surface Bonding Cement WITH the Xypex Admix nor with the concentrate. I contacted Xypex and they directed me to my local sales rep at Coastal Supply here in Jacksonville. Yon was very helpful in this process and told me that his engineers didn't know for sure if the Xypex will work with SBC due to some of the additives used, but he thought it was worth a shot. The amount of Admix that will be used in the SBC coat is only going to worth about $20 so why not give it a try? Best case scenario it works great and everyone is happy. Worst case scenario it doesn't seal properly and a regular Stucco coat with Admix will be applied which he knows will work.

So onto some pictures...
Before...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/prototypesuctionsieve008_zps178a152a.jpg
Look at all that pollen on the Zakki Shower.... It has been crazy bad the last couple weeks. I guess all of the trees got psyched out by the warm weather and started dropping their yellow allergy powder. Funny thing is a cold front just moved through and we could be seeing very cold weather again. Crazy Florida weather!

Couple hours of Sawzall work...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130111_112021_zps09da17dd.jpg

I couldn't remember how big I poured the footer for the roof support and was not happy with the results. This made me reduce the size of the pond and made it a lot narrower than I hoped for...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130111_112033_zps9586c1a7.jpg

Then I made the fun discovery that all of the sprinkler valves and lines ran right through the area and shortened the pond again...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130111_154839_zps063fa18d.jpg

Ran into quite a few large branches/roots from when the house was originally built. This was no fun to dig around.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130111_154852_zpse7275f60.jpg

For some reason I forgot to take pictures of the form and concrete pour. I guess I was in too much of a hurry trying to get it all done in time so I didn't get charged extra for being late with the concrete mixer. I used a 1 1/4 yard mixer from our rental place and added 12 lbs of the Xypex Admix C-1000. I laid the first course with bond beam block with vertical rebar in ever other cell tying into the slab, and then horizontal rebar for added strength. The second course brings me up to the ground level. These bottom two courses will be poured solid with concrete because I will not be able to apply surface bonding cement to the outside of these two courses. You can see the three 2" return lines in this picture...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130117_125408_zpsef95cf81.jpg

I custom made my bottom drains out of a standard 3" DWV 90 and I welded on 3/4" couplers in the bottom so I can attach 7" rubber diffusers as my drain covers. The exposed pipe is just to keep the concrete out of the pipe.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130117_125422_zps2f8a1331.jpg

All ready for concrete...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130117_125442_zps659db0d8.jpg


More updates as they become available!
Zac

[joshk87]

Looking good! Can't wait to see more. This will be one nice QT.

[koiman1950]

Zac

It looks great so far. As far as using the Xypex with the Surface Bonding Cement, as long as you use the SBC WITHOUT the acrylic fortifiers, you should be fine. Unless it's not important for this job, I would also suggest using a high concentration dry powder dye to get the finish as close to black as possible. Yes, when it first dries, it will appear to be a dark charcoal gray, but once wet will revert back to black. Look forward to your progress and what filtration design you have up your sleeve!?!

[icu2]

I have searched quite a bit for this type of application and I wasn't able to find someone using Surface Bonding Cement WITH the Xypex Admix nor with the concentrate.

Just for the record, I did. :)

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?115107-Xypex-Questions...-Concentrate-Admix-Mega-mix&p=2040207#post2040207

But not for structrual support, so I'm really looking forward to how things work for you! :thumb:

[joshk87]

Forgot to ask how many gallons you're going for.

[jimfish98]

Your photos have you as a fast worker. When the time comes to pull my liner and deepen the pond I am giving you a call. A ticket or two to Disney if you dig fast enough, lol.

[Zac Penn]

Just for the record, I did. :)

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?115107-Xypex-Questions...-Concentrate-Admix-Mega-mix&p=2040207#post2040207

But not for structrual support, so I'm really looking forward to how things work for you! :thumb:

Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for CONSUMERS/HOBBISTS by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

Zac

EDIT: It appears as though my wording implied that I would be selling this type of construction job to my customers. That is not the case unless it can be signed off on by a licensed engineer to pass building code inspections and the client was confident in the idea.

[Zac Penn]

Your photos have you as a fast worker. When the time comes to pull my liner and deepen the pond I am giving you a call. A ticket or two to Disney if you dig fast enough, lol.

I am only 30 and I keep telling my dad "I am too old for this $h*t" so don't think I will be waiting by the phone for your call Jim ;)

[icu2]

Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC.

fwiw, the acrylic fortifier hasn't seemed to make any difference with mine. :shrug:

And I can't wait to see how it works out... ever since I made my filter pit out of dry stacked, hollow blocks with SBC coated on both sides, and then used the Xypex on the
lower pond, I've wanted to try them together and see how it'd work. :thumb:

[jimfish98]

I am only 30 and I keep telling my dad "I am too old for this $h*t" so don't think I will be waiting by the phone for your call Jim ;)

Oh please, your still younger than me, plenty of energy in ya, lol.

[Russell Peters]

I am a little worried about the sprinkler system...

[Zac Penn]

Back to work. I got the bottom two courses poured yesterday and and had a lot of work ahead of me...http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_102101_zpsf466f42f.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_102110_zpse69a854a.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_102134_zps357a29b2.jpg

As you can see in this picture there are a few things you need when doing this type of project.
1 - Shims... The blocks are not perfect and there is no mortar to even things up. Your wall will get a little out of whack unless you shim a couple places to keep the courses straight.
2 - Level... Obviously it is needed to keep things level and plumb as you work.
3 - Long Straight Edge... This is very important to keep things level. This helps you span long distances and keep the wall straight to eliminate curves/bows in the wall.
4 - Large Angle Grinder... It is out of view but you will need this to cut your blocks straight. You also need a respirator, eye protection and hearing protection.
5 - Mortar... This is needed to correct any big differences in level between courses. I had the front wall end up 3/16" lower than the back so I didn't want to shim that much so I used a thin layer of mortar to correct this. After this course was fixed everything else went smoothly.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_150003_zpsb0bd92c1.jpg

Next thing that I want to point out is that since I am not a perfect rectangle I am going to pour concrete into the front two corners. This is due to the fact that these corners have to be mitered instead of perfectly over lapped. I am concerned that these mitered corners will not hold up that well with the surface bonding cement. So I cut channels into those corners so that the concrete will fill these voids.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_150016_zps1d329e3b.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130118_150033_zps26cfa18a.jpg

Lots more work to do so check back for more updates.
Zac

[Zac Penn]

I am a little worried about the sprinkler system...

Yeah the sprinkler system is going to be a PITA to sort out, but that will be dealt with once the concrete work is done, and all of the dirt is removed. Then I will figure out what changes need to be made.

[koiman1950]

Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for future customers by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

Zac

Well, that's a nice idea, but a lot of this would totally depend on the individuals soil conditions where they live. Though ALL GROUND moves to some degree, it would be the degree of movement/settlement of a particular soil that could render this type of installation worthless, IMHO.

On your "angled" corner, are you planning to do any type of steel reinforcement along with adding the concrete? I seem to recall Becky had a problem with her pond walls pulling apart even WITH concrete filled cells due to the lack of proper steel reinforcement!?

[epse30]

Very cool experiment Zac!!!
Looking forward to hearing more.
I'm with Mike, I'm a bit concerned about that corner. Since you depend on a "skim" coating for water retention any movement there will cause it to leak. My inclination would bed to run the block out as if it were 90 degrees and mark and trim the excess, rather than mitering. I know it would not look clean and would require using a plywood strip to fill against but then you would still have the benefit of interlocking block at the corner.

Keep up the great work.

Eric

[Zac Penn]

Well, that's a nice idea, but a lot of this would totally depend on the individuals soil conditions where they live. Though ALL GROUND moves to some degree, it would be the degree of movement/settlement of a particular soil that could render this type of installation worthless, IMHO.

On your "angled" corner, are you planning to do any type of steel reinforcement along with adding the concrete? I seem to recall Becky had a problem with her pond walls pulling apart even WITH concrete filled cells due to the lack of proper steel reinforcement!?


Granted I do not think this method would be safe in earthquake zones, or high frost zones, but it should work in most places.

As for the corner I am not going to use rebar in the corners, but I am going to use large strips of fiberglass tape to hold those corners together. I am going to lay down a skim coat of SBC, then apply the fiberglass strips and then coat on top of that. This will connect the entire corner into one solid piece and keep it from separating.

[Zac Penn]

Very cool experiment Zac!!!
Looking forward to hearing more.
I'm with Mike, I'm a bit concerned about that corner. Since you depend on a "skim" coating for water retention any movement there will cause it to leak. My inclination would bed to run the block out as if it were 90 degrees and mark and trim the excess, rather than mitering. I know it would not look clean and would require using a plywood strip to fill against but then you would still have the benefit of interlocking block at the corner.

Keep up the great work.

Eric

I had thought about doing that, but after mocking up those corners I realized the angle grinder I had wouldn't make those cuts easily if the block was already in place. It would make it more unsafe to cut and take more time. I am getting a little more responsible when it comes to dangerous situations so I chose to miter ;)

Also I am not going to be applying a 1/8" thick coat of SBC like the package says will work. I will at least be using a 1/4" thick coat to make sure this is not only strong enough, but also have enough cement that the Xypex can crystalize in.

Zac

[Zac Penn]

Forgot to ask how many gallons you're going for.

Sorry I missed this earlier...
I had originally wanted the volume to be 1800 gallons, but the sprinkler system and concrete footer changed the plan and reduced the size. It looks right now that I will be at 1156 gallons. Still a good sized QT tank, but less than I wanted.

[jimfish98]

Was that the original large Zakki pre filter with media? Hooking it all back up the same way when you are done building?

[Zac Penn]

Was that the original large Zakki pre filter with media? Hooking it all back up the same way when you are done building?

Actually it was the very first Zakki Sieve I ever made. It was 16" diameter and yes it did have the Ultima media in the bottom. I am not finalized on my filtration plan for this system. I pretty sure it will be airlift powered which is why I have two 3" bottom drains installed. I have a couple interesting ideas I am playing with, but I need to work it out a little more before I finalize.

Zac

[pearlharborday]

I have to lean on the side of mike here.......................Zac you did compact the ground with a hand packer or portable compactor and if so what do you think you rate is....under your slab.......your soil testing ,compaction results and total fished weight of the tank on the slab all play a part in how much steel you need....... IMHO once you have gone threw all this trouble with the bond and slab and even using mortatr.....why wouldn't someone just mortar all the blocks???..........not like your saving or shaving major time or money off the project...................JMO I mean you go threw all this then to complete in in half @$$ mode..............................make no sense.................i don't think I could have ever sold a job like that to my greenest of customers threw the years.........thne i must ask ,,since I'm not familar with your parents place......is the pond right on the property line....??????

[CygnusX-1]

I have to agree. Seems like an awful lot of work just to save on some mortar.

[koiman1950]

Well, there's MUCH MORE to it than just being in "Earthquake country". For example, adobe clay soil has a very high moisture retentiveness to is as opposed to say, sandstone or other more porous soil compositions. As such, adobe can "swell" much more, causing the soil to "heave" more. Also, as summer progresses, it can also dry out considerably more, causing separation/cracks in the soil of anywhere up to 5-6" in width, and who knows how deep! I know, just ask my ankle that I twisted while playing golf several years ago. I was walking along and my foot got caught down in a crack, causing me to strain muscle and tendons. Had to have the Marshall come and transport me back to the car in his golf cart.

Zac, I'm not condemning your construction methods here. It may work just fine for YOU, but it may not be as advantageous for others to jump off the financial "cliff" just to save the cost of some steel and concrete.

[Zac Penn]

I am not advocating that anyone do what I do. I am just doing it this way. If someone wants to copy what I do then that is up to them. From what I have read from the manufacturer is that SBC when applied at a 1/8" thickness to a dry-stacked block wall is going to much stronger than a conventionally mortared wall. So I am actually making this stronger than if I used mortar. However, this isn't going to be as strong as a block wall that was filled with concrete and rebar but it will be just fine for my application.

[epse30]

I have to lean on the side of mike here.......................Zac you did compact the ground with a hand packer or portable compactor and if so what do you think you rate is....under your slab.......your soil testing ,compaction results and total fished weight of the tank on the slab all play a part in how much steel you need....... IMHO once you have gone threw all this trouble with the bond and slab and even using mortatr.....why wouldn't someone just mortar all the blocks???..........not like your saving or shaving major time or money off the project...................JMO I mean you go threw all this then to complete in in half @$$ mode..............................make no sense.................i don't think I could have ever sold a job like that to my greenest of customers threw the years.........thne i must ask ,,since I'm not familar with your parents place......is the pond right on the property line....??????

Oh, yeah? I bet you could have......:uggg::rolleyes::D:

[koiman1950]

Oh, yeah? I bet you could have......:uggg::rolleyes::D:

Yeah, but knowing a bit about "pearl" he wouldn't have, not in good conscience!

[pearlharborday]

Yeah, but knowing a bit about "pearl" he wouldn't have, not in good conscience!no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,,:uggg: no comment

[Russell Peters]

I am not advocating that anyone do what I do. I am just doing it this way. If someone wants to copy what I do then that is up to them. From what I have read from the manufacturer is that SBC when applied at a 1/8" thickness to a dry-stacked block wall is going to much stronger than a conventionally mortared wall. So I am actually making this stronger than if I used mortar. However, this isn't going to be as strong as a block wall that was filled with concrete and rebar but it will be just fine for my application.


I am not sure you should be doing this either. From all of the reading I have been doing SBC is used to strengthen existing masonry walls or to create a mortarless block wall but it is not supposed to be used for the structural integrity of the block wall, i.e., you are supposed to fill the cells of the block wall with rebar and concrete in situations that require lateral strength. This would be vessels that holds water...


used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer.

[Russell Peters]

no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,,:uggg: no comment

I am thinking it will only be as structurally sound as mortar when used on walls in a house or garage...

Here's a good link.

https://www.thenaturalhome.com/drystackblock.htm

[Zac Penn]

no i sure wouldn't of..............



Zac you want a dry block vs. mortar test.................take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and put the lid on..............get your ladder out ,,,get about 5 feet in the air above your tank............then drop it right in the center of your now full tank,,,them dry block will move and shift.....not enough to collapse but they will shift.......




do it on a mortar set,,,,it aint movin....................if someone from that company tells you that 1/8" of that ,,will be structurally as sound as mortar,,,,:uggg: no comment


I forgot I was talking to Steve "I know everything and am never wrong" Knapp ;) J/K

Here is something pulled directly off the Quikwall Data Sheet...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/ScreenShot2013-01-20at20620PM_zps940f94f8.png

The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength. All other tests the SBC out performs the mortared wall. If we continue to have warm weather then once the pond is finished I will do a cannonball into the tank just for you Steve!

Zac

[Zac Penn]

I am not sure you should be doing this either. From all of the reading I have been doing SBC is used to strengthen existing masonry walls or to create a mortarless block wall but it is not supposed to be used for the structural integrity of the block wall, i.e., you are supposed to fill the cells of the block wall with rebar and concrete in situations that require lateral strength. This would be vessels that holds water...

Seriously Russell???? That is like me saying "I don't think killing children is acceptable", and you quoting that I said "Killing children is acceptable."

The entire quote from the Sakrete Data Sheet is...
A quality mixture of cement, lime, sand, fibers and special additives. Used to build, decorate and damproof dry stack concrete block walls. Can also be used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer."

Zac

[Russell Peters]

Seriously Russell???? That is like me saying "I don't think killing children is acceptable", and you quoting that I said "Killing children is acceptable."

The entire quote from the Sakrete Data Sheet is...
A quality mixture of cement, lime, sand, fibers and special additives. Used to build, decorate and damproof dry stack concrete block walls. Can also be used to strengthen existing mortared or dry stacked block walls. Structural applications where safety is a concern should be designed and approved by a licensed engineer."

Zac

Don't be silly...show me where it says you can leave out all rebar and concrete from the cells. The strength of the product is it compressive value, nothing else...You do realize that their little blurb about structural stuff is related to anything other than the product was intended for and this product is not intended to be used on empty blocks where the said vessel is holding tons of water back. It has no lateral strength...


Please show me where it states that what you are doing is what is intended by the manufacturer...

[Russell Peters]

Yes seriously...

[icu2]

Personally I'm excited to see what works... and maybe what doesn't. I used SBC on my filter pit without
even filling the cells and it has a lot of strength.

If someone wants to try something different, I don't know if it's for any of us to give our "permission".
I think seeing what happens is a lot of the fun imho...

Zac,
I read that it was recommended that when using the SBC, that the joints specifically not be mortared, but nothing ever
really said why... do you think the concrete filled cells will have any of the effect that they weren't trying to prevent... whatever
that was?
I used it as my skim coat when putting on the Xypex Concentrate coating, and it didn't seem to harm anything.

Thanks for sharing the experiment!

[pearlharborday]

I forgot I was talking to Steve "I know everything and am never wrong" Knapp ;) J/K

Here is something pulled directly off the Quikwall Data Sheet...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/ScreenShot2013-01-20at20620PM_zps940f94f8.png

The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength. All other tests the SBC out performs the mortared wall. If we continue to have warm weather then once the pond is finished I will do a cannonball into the tank just for you Steve!

Zacwell I seem to know when I read quote[ The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength.]
that vertical strength is needed in a above ground pond......


as for the test.....not you,,,you'd fix it;)..................I'd want a nuetral party testing it ,,,with 2 cameras ones pointed at the tank and one pointed at you,,,so we can see your look
.....no matter what it is a hokey build that makes little to no sense,,,why anyone would go threw all that effort and not spend the extra what $15 in mortar and maybe 2 hr extra labor.......it isn't a good contracting practice........................andI'd be personally ambarrassed to even post something like that.....................alot of people having lots a questions going threw their heads right now,,,,,what is that kid up to now............going from a pretty dang well design fitration sytems to building half butt ponds to save a couple bucks........................Zac ,,,people are thinking what short cuts is he taking when building his other stuff.......


or is this all smoke screen and the next thing ya know you'll be selling and acting as a licensed applicator for this product.........................brings me back to the beginning of the ceramedia threads.................kinda the same flow going here????:uggg:


guess time will see:rolleyes:;)

[crsublette]

Nonetheless, whichever way this experiment goes, I'll be learning something. Thanks Zac for doing this. Interesting thread.

@ Zac ... In the first picture on post#1, that Zakki model is no longer sold, correct?

@ Russel and Pearl or anyone that knows .... In context of pond building, how much pressure can a ton of water, in a pond, exert on a wall ?? An equation provided would be very awesome where I can input variable of dimensions etc. Alot of physics here, fun stuff. :yes: My guess is we're looking at the compressive, axial loading result of water on wall near the base of the wall ? :think2: Nah, that's not right I don't think. I don't know... :uggg:

[Russell Peters]

Nonetheless, whichever way this experiment goes, I'll be learning something. Thanks Zac for doing this. Interesting thread.

@ Zac ... In the first picture on post#1, that Zakki model is no longer sold, correct?

@ Russel and Pearl or anyone that knows .... In context of pond building, how much pressure can a ton of water, in a pond, exert on a wall ?? An equation provided would be very awesome where I can input variable of dimensions etc. Alot of physics here, fun stuff. :yes: My guess is we're looking at the compressive, axial loading.

((( i'm currently googling this right now, hoping i'll come across something ... good )))

Better get out your "special" pocket protector for this one...

[crsublette]

Ugh, my physic schooling is leaving me!! Pull me out coach. :(

[Russell Peters]

Ugh, my physic schooling is leaving me!! Pull me out coach. :(

Here is what happened to another block wall pond that was not properly reinforced and filled with concrete. Would SBC have saved this???

[crsublette]

Woh, alot of pressure ... maybe? SBC is the super extra strength polident of concrete, correct? :yes:

[Russell Peters]

Woh, alot of pressure ... maybe? SBC is the super extra strength polident of concrete, correct? :yes:

Maybe...notice how some of the block wall ruptured...

[crsublette]

I can not deny ya ... it does look quite rough. :Drogar-Scared(LBG):

[crsublette]

Russel, looking at the last, bottom, picture there. What was the concrete compound the person used?

[crsublette]

Laying my head on my desk sideways so I can properly orient to view the picture... :Argh:

Did some of those cinder blocks actually bust in half ??

[Russell Peters]

Did some of those cinder blocks actually bust in half ??

Yes, because they were not filled properly. Here is the whole thread, you like to read...

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?121436-Bekko-s-Pond-Construction-Opelika-AL&highlight=block+wall+failures

[Russell Peters]

Russel, looking at the last, bottom, picture there. What was the concrete compound the person used?

I think it was type S mortar...

[crsublette]

Aaahh, so there might just be hope here for the mighty SBC to shine!! :praying::pray:

If it is not the "compressive, axial loading" pressure that we're talking about? I think it is though, but I unsure. :think2:

[Russell Peters]

Aaahh, so there might just be hope here for the mighty SBC to shine!! :praying::pray:

If it is not the "compressive, axial loading" pressure that we're talking about? I think it is though, but I unsure. :think2:

I am OK with being wrong...

[Zac Penn]

well I seem to know when I read quote[ The only thing that a mortared concrete block wall has over an SBC coated block wall is vertical compression strength.]
that vertical strength is needed in a above ground pond......


as for the test.....not you,,,you'd fix it;)..................I'd want a nuetral party testing it ,,,with 2 cameras ones pointed at the tank and one pointed at you,,,so we can see your look
.....no matter what it is a hokey build that makes little to no sense,,,why anyone would go threw all that effort and not spend the extra what $15 in mortar and maybe 2 hr extra labor.......it isn't a good contracting practice........................andI'd be personally ambarrassed to even post something like that.....................alot of people having lots a questions going threw their heads right now,,,,,what is that kid up to now............going from a pretty dang well design fitration sytems to building half butt ponds to save a couple bucks........................Zac ,,,people are thinking what short cuts is he taking when building his other stuff.......


or is this all smoke screen and the next thing ya know you'll be selling and acting as a licensed applicator for this product.........................brings me back to the beginning of the ceramedia threads.................kinda the same flow going here????:uggg:


guess time will see:rolleyes:;)

Steve you are the most paranoid person I have ever dealt with. You probably believe the Newtown school shooting was a conspiracy along with 9-11. If people don't like the experiments that I do and it effects my business then that is my issue to work out. I don't need you telling me that everything I do is being examined. I personally think bio-ball filtration is hokey so it is fine for you to think what I do is the same.

[Zac Penn]

Here is what happened to another block wall pond that was not properly reinforced and filled with concrete. Would SBC have saved this???


YES! I think SBC would have kept that wall together. That corner broke apart due to tensile forces...NOT compression forces. The fiberglass fibers combined within the cement are much stronger than the bond between type-s mortar and a dusty concrete block. I truly doubt that each block was sprayed down with water before having the mortar slapped onto it so the bond between the two is not very strong. The dry-stacked block wall is to be sprayed down with water before the SBC is applied so a stronger bond is achieved between the block and cement and the strength of the coating is greater than that of mortar.

Zac

[Russell Peters]

YES! I think SBC would have kept that wall together. That corner broke apart due to tensile forces...NOT compression forces. The fiberglass fibers combined within the cement are much stronger than the bond between type-s mortar and a dusty concrete block. I truly doubt that each block was sprayed down with water before having the mortar slapped onto it so the bond between the two is not very strong. The dry-stacked block wall is to be sprayed down with water before the SBC is applied so a stronger bond is achieved between the block and cement and the strength of the coating is greater than that of mortar.

Zac

Cool, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

[crsublette]

I'm really looking forward to how this comes along. Glad you're doing this Zac. Ya read my mind with this thread. I have been wondering how well SBC and xypex would work. I was kind of thinking of doing a mix like this as well.

What product of SBC did ya go with? hyperlink would be awesome.

[pearlharborday]

Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for future customers by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

ZacZAc given your history,,,,my presumption isn't paranoia:no:


look at what you said,,,,,,,,,,,,you could save future costumers thousands........

well now if you talking thousands you're talking big.......


and you aint going to be doing big,,,,legally with inspections ,,,that is my point from the get go...............florida building code is pretty standerd ...

no engineer would put their @$$,,on the line with that ,,,and no building plan reviewer would sign off on it ..........period


that's my point you are a professional ,,,,,,:uggg:

[Russell Peters]

ZAc given your history,,,,my presumption isn't paranoia:no:


look at what you said,,,,,,,,,,,,you could save future costumers thousands........

well now if you talking thousands you're talking big.......


and you aint going to be doing big,,,,legally with inspections ,,,that is my point from the get go...............florida building code is pretty standerd ...

no engineer would put their @$$,,on the line with that ,,,and no building plan reviewer would sign off on it ..........period


that's my point you are a professional ,,,,,,:uggg:


I also don't see anywhere where any of the SBC manufacturers recommend "not" filling the cells with rebar and concrete in this application either...

[pearlharborday]

Zac if you really are into saving your customers money....do what all pool contractors do,,,,they hook a 1st. with a engineer or 2 ,,,and work a deal on some basic plans and sign offs ,,and set fees for basic changes

2nd.hook up woth a couple good concrete sub contractots who are licensed ,,have all the equipment and do this all the time and can do what they do best,,,and cheaper because they have already done all the leg work of getting the good deals on the cement,pumps and steel.....plus they already have relations with the area inspectors ................that leaves you to what you do best,,,and what you can control ...the rough and final plumbing and building the filtration system ..............everyone one wins then

[icu2]

I also don't see anywhere where any of the SBC manufacturers recommend "not" filling the cells with rebar and concrete in this application either...

Not about filling cells specifically, but wondered if this might apply to your question... this is from the a bag of SBC (Quikwall) I had in the garage:

Blocks should be laid on a firm and even foundation. Set the first (only the first) course of blocks in a bed of either QUIKWALL Surface Bonding Cement or QUIKRETE Mortar Mix. This layer must be set plumb and level. NO MORTAR IS USED IN ANY VERTICAL JOINT AND ONLY IN THE HORIZONTAL JOINT BETWEEN FOUNDATION AND FIRST COURSE.

The caps are theirs, not mine. :)

[mbrian1226]

I'm pretty sure Zac wouldn't be doing an experiment on a customers pond. After reading lots of his other threads and builds I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He also doesn't seem like the type that would cut corners. This thread is a good example why I would never post any pictures or information of my own work on here due to certain people tearing everything apart and telling others they don't know what the hell their doing. Dealers on this forum that have big ego's and are always criticizing peoples builds and ideas I will never give any business to. Like ICU2 said, "did Zac have to ask for permission before he did this experiment?"

[benr7132]

I'm pretty sure Zac wouldn't be doing an experiment on a customers pond. After reading lots of his other threads and builds I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He also doesn't seem like the type that would cut corners. This thread is a good example why I would never post any pictures or information of my own work on here due to certain people tearing everything apart and telling others they don't know what the hell their doing. Dealers on this forum that have big ego's and are always criticizing peoples builds and ideas I will never give any business to. Like ICU2 said, "did Zac have to ask for permission before he did this experiment?"

I am also shocked by the vitriol on this thread. Makes me think twice about posting more related to my build. Advice, support, and responses to questions asked are great. Attacks are not.

[icu2]

I've requested that posters review and edit their posts that aren't on the topic of the materials or methods being used in the build of the original poster.
I'll edit if need be. Personal attacks and/or opinions of business practices aren't constructive or appropriate in a construction thread.

Thank you.

[Russell Peters]

Not about filling cells specifically, but wondered if this might apply to your question... this is from the a bag of SBC (Quikwall) I had in the garage:

Blocks should be laid on a firm and even foundation. Set the first (only the first) course of blocks in a bed of either QUIKWALL Surface Bonding Cement or QUIKRETE Mortar Mix. This layer must be set plumb and level. NO MORTAR IS USED IN ANY VERTICAL JOINT AND ONLY IN THE HORIZONTAL JOINT BETWEEN FOUNDATION AND FIRST COURSE.

The caps are theirs, not mine. :)

Steve, this has nothing to do with what I am talking about. This is referring to the mortar that goes between the blocks,i.e. the joints, I am talking about the rebar and CONCRETE that goes inside of the cells that will give the wall it's structural integrity. Also, everything I have found about doing these dry stack walls does not have anything to do with what he is doing. He is creating a vessel that holds a lot of water and there is a lot of stress placed on the walls. All of the instructions I have read were for walls for a house or garage that are free from lateral stresses.

[icu2]

Okie doke... I just thought I'd toss it out there because I had wondered from my own builds, whether filling the center voids with concrete,
would equate to filling "any vertical joint" or horizontal, comment on the bag.

Sorry... please disregard.

But I'm still very interested in how it turns out. :yes:
I've always been impressed with the apparent strength of SBC, ever since I'd used it on my filter pit.

[frankl]

Zac looking forward to seeing the finished project.....Great looking so far..

[Zac Penn]

ZAc given your history,,,,my presumption isn't paranoia:no:


look at what you said,,,,,,,,,,,,you could save future costumers thousands........

well now if you talking thousands you're talking big.......


and you aint going to be doing big,,,,legally with inspections ,,,that is my point from the get go...............florida building code is pretty standerd ...

no engineer would put their @$$,,on the line with that ,,,and no building plan reviewer would sign off on it ..........period


that's my point you are a professional ,,,,,,:uggg:


Ok now I see where you are coming from with this. I AM NOT A CONTRACTOR NOR A POND BUILDER!!!!! I am a consultant on pond design and a fabricator of filtration systems. I didn't mean I could save MY customers thousands, I guess I should have said consumers/hobbyists. I would not build a pond like this for a client due to building inspections and FL building code. I do not think it would pass unless there was an engineer willing to sign off on it.

I am building this tank the way I am for curiosity and to test out this product. If it works out then great. If it doesn't then I will adjust from there. If it fails I will not start a cover up to save face. I am EXPERIMENTING with this product, so I have nothing to lose if it doesn't work out. Well except some money.

Zac

[Zac Penn]

I'm pretty sure Zac wouldn't be doing an experiment on a customers pond. After reading lots of his other threads and builds I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He also doesn't seem like the type that would cut corners. This thread is a good example why I would never post any pictures or information of my own work on here due to certain people tearing everything apart and telling others they don't know what the hell their doing. Dealers on this forum that have big ego's and are always criticizing peoples builds and ideas I will never give any business to. Like ICU2 said, "did Zac have to ask for permission before he did this experiment?"


I am also shocked by the vitriol on this thread. Makes me think twice about posting more related to my build. Advice, support, and responses to questions asked are great. Attacks are not.


I've requested that posters review and edit their posts that aren't on the topic of the materials or methods being used in the build of the original poster.
I'll edit if need be. Personal attacks and/or opinions of business practices aren't constructive or appropriate in a construction thread.

Thank you.


Zac looking forward to seeing the finished project.....Great looking so far..


Thanks for the support! I knew FOR A FACT that Steve was going to trash this thread just like he does every other thread that I start. I am used to it. I leave it up to the readers to interpret what they want. I just like to tinker around and try new ideas, and some people don't like change. I however love change and try to push things to a new level.

If you think this construction thread is interesting then please keep checking in. If you only want to see this pond fail, then please check back often because I have nothing to hide here. If you want to try something similar to this, then go for it, but be warned that this will not pass inspections and is not a tried and true building practice for ponds.

Zac

[pearlharborday]

Thanks for the support! I knew FOR A FACT that Steve was going to trash this thread just like he does every other thread that I start. I am used to it. I leave it up to the readers to interpret what they want. I just like to tinker around and try new ideas, and some people don't like change. I however love change and try to push things to a new level.

If you think this construction thread is interesting then please keep checking in. If you only want to see this pond fail, then please check back often because I have nothing to hide here. If you want to try something similar to this, then go for it, but be warned that this will not pass inspections and is not a tried and true building practice for ponds.

Zacno Zac you constantley set yourself up in threads like this.........ya i do bust ya out ,,,ya need a good smack every now and then.............not a busniess who doesn't ,,starting out as you.....you think I didn't get knocked around 20 yrs ago........and i'm better off for it and semi-retiring at 44...pay attention kid,,,maybe in 14 years,,,you can join me

Zac,,when you post I can save customers thousands doing builds like this ........................well a newbie around here ,,just might take that as you a licensed contractor,,,,well you're not........and that is how the thread should have started and the statement of not being able to pass most all US building codes,,,,should have been put in the beginning ...................and I,, Russel and mike ............wouldn't of said a peep.

it is your wording and your youth the gets you in trouble ,,,you're young and chasing every crumb you can pick up,,,as we all did at your age..but some of us walked down the hill,,,,you run...........the old bull and the young bull,,,if you aint heard the story,,,well ya need to.............

Zac ,,,none of us oldies here want to see you fail,,,we want you to suceed..........................and everytime you do something boneheaded,,,,,that could hurt your future business growth.......ya I'm gonna give ya swift kick.................


dang jerry springer generation:uggg:

[Russell Peters]

Ok now I see where you are coming from with this. I AM NOT A CONTRACTOR NOR A POND BUILDER!!!!! I am a consultant on pond design and a fabricator of filtration systems. I didn't mean I could save MY customers thousands, I guess I should have said consumers/hobbyists. I would not build a pond like this for a client due to building inspections and FL building code. I do not think it would pass unless there was an engineer willing to sign off on it.

I am building this tank the way I am for curiosity and to test out this product. If it works out then great. If it doesn't then I will adjust from there. If it fails I will not start a cover up to save face. I am EXPERIMENTING with this product, so I have nothing to lose if it doesn't work out. Well except some money.

Zac


:cool3:

[Zac Penn]

WARNING: I am not a contractor and I do not believe this type of construction will pass a building code inspection! This is purely an experiment.

I have been interested in this type of build for a long time, and finally the wooden QT at my parents house started to rot away and they gave me the go ahead to tear it out and start from scratch. I have searched quite a bit for this type of application and I wasn't able to find someone using Surface Bonding Cement WITH the Xypex Admix nor with the concentrate. I contacted Xypex and they directed me to my local sales rep at Coastal Supply here in Jacksonville. Yon was very helpful in this process and told me that his engineers didn't know for sure if the Xypex will work with SBC due to some of the additives used, but he thought it was worth a shot. The amount of Admix that will be used in the SBC coat is only going to worth about $20 so why not give it a try? Best case scenario it works great and everyone is happy. Worst case scenario it doesn't seal properly and a regular Stucco coat with Admix will be applied which he knows will work.



Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for CONSUMERS/HOBBISTS by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

Zac

EDIT: It appears as though my wording implied that I would be selling this type of construction job to my customers. That is not the case unless it can be signed off on by a licensed engineer to pass building code inspections and the client was confident in the idea.


There you go Steve. Warnings have been added!

[Zac Penn]

dang jerry springer generation:uggg:

Dang old farts that think they know everything :kpparty:

[BAVOTOI]

Zac Penn, I just glat that you back with new idea, It's good that you back build will not improved if some thing not fell.

[Zac Penn]

I have a few more pictures to share today....
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130121_155343_zpsd36b7675.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130121_155354_zpsf302ad7c.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130121_155409_zps6e117637.jpg

I did some more thinking today and decided I am not going to use the fiberglass cloth in the two front corners due to the metal corner bead. This will hold the corner together just fine once the SBC has been squeezed in behind the lathe. I really should have bought the 3/4" long masonry nails because it is very painfull trying to hold a small nail 1/2" long between your finger and then try an tap it into place. I am going to use pliers tomorrow when I install the other three corner beads.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130121_155428_zpsd542602a.jpg

Zac

[Russell Peters]

I have a few more pictures to share today....


I did some more thinking today and decided I am not going to use the fiberglass cloth in the two front corners due to the metal corner bead. This will hold the corner together just fine once the SBC has been squeezed in behind the lathe. I really should have bought the 3/4" long masonry nails because it is very painfull trying to hold a small nail 1/2" long between your finger and then try an tap it into place. I am going to use pliers tomorrow when I install the other three corner beads.

Zac

Needle noes pliers work really well...

[pearlharborday]

ya ever down here again kid,,,i got a 1/4 acre lot full of that corner wire................been taking years to get rid of it

[koiman1950]

I am not advocating that anyone do what I do. I am just doing it this way. If someone wants to copy what I do then that is up to them. From what I have read from the manufacturer is that SBC when applied at a 1/8" thickness to a dry-stacked block wall is going to much stronger than a conventionally mortared wall. So I am actually making this stronger than if I used mortar. However, this isn't going to be as strong as a block wall that was filled with concrete and rebar but it will be just fine for my application.

Okay guys, lets back off a bit (whole lot) and let Zac conduct his "test", even if it's for his own edification. His statement above, in an earlier post, shows he understands the differences between filled and unfilled, steel reinforced block construction. At least I think he does!?! Sorry I started this whole sh#T storm. Of course, if I hadn't, I'm sure someone else would have questioned your methods (which has already been done).

Let's keep this about Zac's "test project" and allow him some latitude here. No more "personal" interjections from the peanut gallery.

Thanks

[The Koi Dude]

:pullup::pullup::pullup:

[Russell Peters]

:pullup::pullup::pullup:

You've been doing a lot of that lately...

[Tmax]

Zac thank you for being brave enough to post this! I am a newby and understood from the first post that this was an experiment and not an approved new way of construction.

[crsublette]

Ok now I see where you are coming from with this. I AM NOT A CONTRACTOR NOR A POND BUILDER!!!!! I am a consultant on pond design and a fabricator of filtration systems. I didn't mean I could save MY customers thousands, I guess I should have said consumers/hobbyists. I would not build a pond like this for a client due to building inspections and FL building code. I do not think it would pass unless there was an engineer willing to sign off on it.

I am building this tank the way I am for curiosity and to test out this product. If it works out then great. If it doesn't then I will adjust from there. If it fails I will not start a cover up to save face. I am EXPERIMENTING with this product, so I have nothing to lose if it doesn't work out. Well except some money.

Zac

Very well stated. :thumb: I wish there were more experimental threads. Experimenting is good tool for gaining knowledge about understanding various processes. :yes:

:cheer: Go Go Zac. :cheer2:


I'm pretty sure Zac wouldn't be doing an experiment on a customers pond. After reading lots of his other threads and builds I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He also doesn't seem like the type that would cut corners. This thread is a good example why I would never post any pictures or information of my own work on here due to certain people tearing everything apart and telling others they don't know what the hell their doing. Dealers on this forum that have big ego's and are always criticizing peoples builds and ideas I will never give any business to. Like ICU2 said, "did Zac have to ask for permission before he did this experiment?"

Nobody should have to ask permission before doing an experiment. :no:

However, this does not disqualify the experimenter from proper disclaimers prior to the experiment, as Mr. Penn has done now. Read Bekko's thread that Mr. Peters shared and you'll understand why. This back and forth is good to have as long as it does not get personal, which I am not gonna even go there.

This thread should be a very good example of why you would want to share your pond build. I would want folk to be looking after me instead of being cheerleaders regardless of what is done.

This is an open discussion and you do not have to agree with the criticism. If ya think ya know better, then that is alright. If you can't take the criticism, then don't even start sharing much where an open discussion can occur. Adults should be able to take criticism and agree to disagree without becoming personal, which I am not gonna even go there. :)

[crsublette]

I did some more thinking today and decided I am not going to use the fiberglass cloth in the two front corners due to the metal corner bead. This will hold the corner together just fine once the SBC has been squeezed in behind the lathe. I really should have bought the 3/4" long masonry nails because it is very painfull trying to hold a small nail 1/2" long between your finger and then try an tap it into place. I am going to use pliers tomorrow when I install the other three corner beads.
Zac
What is the metal cage material there you are using called ??

Sorry, I'm not familiar with any of this construction stuff yet. Learning as I go. :)



Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. ...
Zac, was it tough finding a SBC without the acrylic fortifiers or is Quickwall SBC just a typical SBC mix?



Okay guys, lets back off a bit (whole lot) and let Zac conduct his "test", even if it's for his own edification. His statement above, in an earlier post, shows he understands the differences between filled and unfilled, steel reinforced block construction. At least I think he does!?! Sorry I started this whole sh#T storm. Of course, if I hadn't, I'm sure someone else would have questioned your methods (which has already been done).

Let's keep this about Zac's "test project" and allow him some latitude here. No more "personal" interjections from the peanut gallery.

Thanks

Nah man, I think you were just looking out for the readers. :thumb: The forewarning has gotten a bit personal so I am glad this is why moderators do what they do. :yes:

[Zac Penn]

What is the metal cage material there you are using called ??

It is stucco corner bead, and is used to achieve a straight corner joint.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with any of this construction stuff yet. Learning as I go. :)



Zac, was it tough finding a SBC without the acrylic fortifiers or is Quickwall SBC just a typical SBC mix?
Neither of the big box brands Quikrete/Sakrete have the acrylic fortifier directly added (or at least it doesn't say so on the data sheet). From what I can tell it is a liquid additive that is combined while you are mixing in the water. There are other trace materials that are added to SBC that makes the Xypex engineers unsure of the sealing potential between the two products.



Nah man, I think you were just looking out for the readers. :thumb: The forewarning has gotten a bit personal so I am glad this is why moderators do what they do. :yes:

I am a big boy and can take the heat. I am waiting on the temperatures to rise before I continue with this project. The SBC says not to install the product if the temperatures will get below 50 degrees within 24 hrs. Today and tomorrow looks good but saturday gets cold again, so I am going to hold off until Monday so that I have a couple warmer days for the SBC to cure properly.

Zac

[The Koi Dude]

You've been doing a lot of that lately...

curious to see what happens.. I like experimental threads like this one. Not the way I would do it (I'm MR. overkill), but I would like to know if it will work. The pissing match just makes it a bit better. :D:

[Paultergeist]

@ Russel and Pearl or anyone that knows .... In context of pond building, how much pressure can a ton of water, in a pond, exert on a wall ?? An equation provided would be very awesome where I can input variable of dimensions etc. Alot of physics here, fun stuff. :yes: My guess is we're looking at the compressive, axial loading result of water on wall near the base of the wall ?........

The answer to your question lies in the depth of the water column, not the total weight of the water. Since water is......well.....a liquid, it exerts force (i.e. pressure) equally in all directions, that pressure being a simple function of depth per unit area.

While this math is not exact, it is pretty close: For fresh water, figure 0.43 pounds per square inch per foot of depth.

Examples: At 1 foot of depth, water pressure is 0.43 pounds per square inch -- this is true whether we are assessing that pressure at the bottom surface of a hypothetical 1-foot-deep pond, or at the wall of the (more typical) deeper pond at 1 foot of water depth. This does not sound like much, but bear in mind that there are 144 square inches in a square foot, so there would be 0.43 x 144 = 62 pounds per foot -- at 1 foot of depth.

The numbers seem a bit more compelling at somewhat deeper depths: At 5 feet deep in the water column, the pressure exerted is 0.43 x 5 = 2.2 pounds per square inch, or 310 pounds per square foot. That pressure is exerted equally in all directions.

Hope that helps!

[Zac Penn]

curious to see what happens.. I like experimental threads like this one. Not the way I would do it (I'm MR. overkill), but I would like to know if it will work. The pissing match just makes it a bit better. :D:


I am currently chugging a Big Gulp ;)

[jimfish98]

I am currently chugging a Big Gulp ;)

You aiming for volume? Get the rules straight or they will claim victory on distance or coloration if they lose in volume, lol.

[Zac Penn]

The answer to your question lies in the depth of the water column, not the total weight of the water. Since water is......well.....a liquid, it exerts force (i.e. pressure) equally in all directions, that pressure being a simple function of depth per unit area.

While this math is not exact, it is pretty close: For fresh water, figure 0.43 pounds per square inch per foot of depth.

Examples: At 1 foot of depth, water pressure is 0.43 pounds per square inch -- this is true whether we are assessing that pressure at the bottom surface of a hypothetical 1-foot-deep pond, or at the wall of the (more typical) deeper pond at 1 foot of water depth. This does not sound like much, but bear in mind that there are 144 square inches in a square foot, so there would be 0.43 x 144 = 62 pounds per foot -- at 1 foot of depth.

The numbers seem a bit more compelling at somewhat deeper depths: At 5 feet deep in the water column, the pressure exerted is 0.43 x 5 = 2.2 pounds per square inch, or 310 pounds per square foot. That pressure is exerted equally in all directions.

Hope that helps!

The simple equation of pressure does give an idea as to how great that force is, but I haven't been able to figure out a way of converting that into strength of structural members. IE: A 4' x 4' x 4' deep pond will easily be held together with vertical 2x4's and a 2x4 top and bottom plate without much deflection in the middle. However a 8' x 8' x 4' deep pond will have a severe bow in the center of the top/bottom plates with the same construction methods.

I wish I knew how to accurately size structural members across spans of pond walls without deflection being an issue.

Zac

[Zac Penn]

The weather forecast has changed a little bit and it looks like it will be warm enough for the next 5-6 days. I may start the SBC process soon!!!!!!!

[catfish whiskers]

I am currently chugging a Big Gulp ;)

:pint: I think Youll win :rain1:

[richtoybox]

Design formulas. Below is a picture of a couple of design diagrams with formulas. These would be conservative, with the design for length being the top Simple Beam and the depth direction being the Simple Beam Increasing Uniformly to one End. The reason they are conservative is they do not take into acount the end constraint offered by the attachment of the bottom of the wall to the footer/floor, or the end resistance offered by the corner fixation. In the formulas you can see from the diagram that "l" is length, "w" is the weight, which in the second formula for verticle, 62.4 pound per foot of depth times the depth, and the "delta" is the deflection. The deflection is a little harder to calculate since it involves E and I. E is the modulus of elasticity, and for steel that is 29,000,000psi, but wood, concrete, glass, etc would have different values. I is a property of the shape, which can get ugly fast.

For the length wise "w" I think you should use the "W" from 2.

[epse30]

The simple equation of pressure does give an idea as to how great that force is, but I haven't been able to figure out a way of converting that into strength of structural members. IE: A 4' x 4' x 4' deep pond will easily be held together with vertical 2x4's and a 2x4 top and bottom plate without much deflection in the middle. However a 8' x 8' x 4' deep pond will have a severe bow in the center of the top/bottom plates with the same construction methods.

I wish I knew how to accurately size structural members across spans of pond walls without deflection being an issue.

Zac

Obviously, if you find a satisfactory way to anchor the top and bottom of the midpoint 2x4 in your 8' x 8' x 4' you can still use 2x4's.

Presto: Out comes Richard with a formula... which I'm not quite sure how to apply:doh: But he has made me realize that this is not rocket science, just statics:uggg:;)

[crsublette]

Very awesome Rich. :yahoo: Now if I only understood the syntax. I miss physics class. Fun interesting stuff. My problem is I never could memorize all of the formulas so I gave it up.

Rich, that is quite a book ya have there. :yes:


Design formulas. Below is a picture of a couple of design diagrams with formulas. These would be conservative, with the design for length being the top Simple Beam and the depth direction being the Simple Beam Increasing Uniformly to one End. The reason they are conservative is they do not take into acount the end constraint offered by the attachment of the bottom of the wall to the footer/floor, or the end resistance offered by the corner fixation. In the formulas you can see from the diagram that "l" is length, "w" is the weight, which in the second formula for verticle, 62.4 pound per foot of depth times the depth, and the "delta" is the deflection. The deflection is a little harder to calculate since it involves E and I. E is the modulus of elasticity, and for steel that is 29,000,000psi, but wood, concrete, glass, etc would have different values. I is a property of the shape, which can get ugly fast.

For the length wise "w" I think you should use the "W" from 2.

[pearlharborday]

curious to see what happens.. I like experimental threads like this one. Not the way I would do it (I'm MR. overkill), but I would like to know if it will work. The pissing match just makes it a bit better. :D:

here the problem with the test ,,,unless this goes on for a 3-5 year trial it means absolutley nothing ,,,accept that this can be done temporay............................it isn't it is going to fall apart right away....................heck it will hold for quite sometime,,,or one day the wrong turn with the riding lawn mower can knock one of the un mortared block,,,and there ya go.....

it will most likely stand 1-2 years without any considerable visable issues.....................and considereing that ZAC has a good slab,an extremely good eye,, and handier than the average joe,,, the 1st course bonded will greatly help with with ground movement...

no matter were you live you are always subject to sizemic movent[not sure spelled right]....................the earth expands and contracts daily...the dirt under our feet is moving up and down,,,,we really can't feel it,,,but you can watch it.....................it is always easier to did in warm soil than cold..........cold soil is contracted ,,,tighter little hard to dig threw but you remove more weight per shovel full when the soil is warm.....when warm the soil expands,,,,,,,,,,,,,,easier to dig threw but wont pull out as much volume as vs. cold soil..............................Zacs bonding on the 1st course will greatly help fight this situation...

but is my concerns and valid one,at that.................................lets see I would bet I have made probally 200 or more of these type system......heck raybo,,,,we put 120 4x8x3 CB tanks at his facilty ......all same way but different coatings.................................it was open pole barn 60 x120 with a 12" commercially poured slab.........this was a new lumbar yard that new opened,,,so the pole barn slab and facilty were all designed like any big industrail site.......................so we drilled pin holes for rebar corner supports and started mortaring block............a 1/3 of the tanks were painted,,,,another 1/3 were marcited and the rest we used this product called sbc.....................everybody held pretty good for awhile...say about 2 years raybo calling me ,,,I've noticed several tanks are leaking now.....and i noticed a few chunks of the walls in the tanks...........................................we ll the marcite,,the sbs and painted tanks are started having issues,,,,,,,,,,wasn't structural,,,,,wasn't the products....it was moisture trapped between the block cells...

painted ones were all the real bad ones and it was about equal failure between the sbc and marcited tanks

we were told well that is whay your are supposed to fill the blocks or use insulating boards on the inside and ouside before apllying the coatings....................................basica lly the condensation built up threw the years,,inside the hollow walls and eventually that moistureworked it's way betwen the blocks and the coating slowly breaking it down......

it is a slow process and unless this systems stands with no issues for 3 years....the point of this test,,,is tempory at best...................

......................I bet alot of people here have no clue what was the results of 70% of the building failures in NJ and surrounding areas was during hurricane sandy,,,which was actually just a strong trop. storm when made landfall............................it wasn't the winds,,,it wasn't the surf, it wasn't the rains....70% of the failure was corrosion of the fastners [nails,screws,clips] and the rebar......................basically it was all rusted away threw the years of moisture exposure..........

so now that is why all coastal community building now has national code that,, has steal has to be tripled or galvanized or stainless and all fasters galv or stainless on structral exterior sections....


so Zac with this in mind of moisture and corrosion have you made any plans for venting the open cells ,,,so that you may prolong the structural integrity of your project................few years later i did one with insulating boards,,,and left one cap un mortar ,,so i could check from time to time,,,,wasn't long even with the insulations boards that i noticed condesation building..............so I drilled vent holes.....seemed to help .....how long after wards it would of held,,,don't know ,,shortley after a grandfather oak took it out....and his brand new corvette that had didn;t even have 12 miles on it yet:uggg:..................can build for that:no:


and I'm curious,,,what you have in this so far...................................just asking because you could do that foot print ,,,using a subcontractor,,,with the same slab and formed poured walls for $1000 including the permit..................any florida concrete sub would be right in that ball park....................I'll post some pictures of the sea wall I had poured this summer..........


now in Raybo's case he just leveled all the tanks and went with the duracast large 800-1000 gallon hards tanks,,,,,,,which he should of done in the 1st place ,,like i told him,,,it was cheaper,,faster,,,more versital and alot easier to move,,if you didn't like it in that spot and then you actually have something you can sell ,,,if you don't want it anymore....

I built all knds of little systems threw the years and everyone of them cost cosiderably more per gallon than buying the stock tanks and then again with the tanks you got something of value later..

just my opinion,,,but anyone serious about fish keeping,, to the point that you will always ahve a qt,emergancy system going at all times.......and the system you want is going to be less than 1000 gallons get a palstic tank............you''l be beter off in the long run ,,finacial,maintenance and re-sale.....


I'm not here trashing Zac or his project ,,,,only question his reasoning..............from his 1st post...........................will the project hold water yes,,,how long is the question......................................mark in my calander now,,,,3 yrs form this date,,,I'm going to drag this thread up,,,call mr. zac,,,see if i cantake him out for a nice lunch and then go see how she holding...................if i eat crow,,in 3 years,,,i usually like it with kc masterpeice ........................how do you like your crow served,Zac..:D:

we all eat crow sometime or another............................so till 3 years from now ,,,I'll sit back and a watch Zacs work,,,it will be very nice looking for sure...

so ZAC jan.25th 2016 we gotta date??????? if so eat a light breakfast,,,,this old fart predicts you'll be eating both the servings of crow

[The Koi Dude]

Pearl, I hear you, but I'm still curious to see what happens. It's always fun to see threads like this. Will it fill up and hold water or will it fail right away? Will it fail over time or not? Quoting Russ " time will tell". My humble opinion is that over time he will have issue and it will give him grief. Especially it being at his parents house.:D: at least I know how my parents are.:uggg: I'm sure that what ever happens Zac will keep us posted.

[Zac Penn]

here the problem with the test ,,,unless this goes on for a 3-5 year trial it means absolutley nothing ,,,accept that this can be done temporay............................it isn't it is going to fall apart right away....................heck it will hold for quite sometime,,,or one day the wrong turn with the riding lawn mower can knock one of the un mortared block,,,and there ya go.....

it will most likely stand 1-2 years without any considerable visable issues.....................and considereing that ZAC has a good slab,an extremely good eye,, and handier than the average joe,,, the 1st course bonded will greatly help with with ground movement...

no matter were you live you are always subject to sizemic movent[not sure spelled right]....................the earth expands and contracts daily...the dirt under our feet is moving up and down,,,,we really can't feel it,,,but you can watch it.....................it is always easier to did in warm soil than cold..........cold soil is contracted ,,,tighter little hard to dig threw but you remove more weight per shovel full when the soil is warm.....when warm the soil expands,,,,,,,,,,,,,,easier to dig threw but wont pull out as much volume as vs. cold soil..............................Zacs bonding on the 1st course will greatly help fight this situation...

but is my concerns and valid one,at that.................................lets see I would bet I have made probally 200 or more of these type system......heck raybo,,,,we put 120 4x8x3 CB tanks at his facilty ......all same way but different coatings.................................it was open pole barn 60 x120 with a 12" commercially poured slab.........this was a new lumbar yard that new opened,,,so the pole barn slab and facilty were all designed like any big industrail site.......................so we drilled pin holes for rebar corner supports and started mortaring block............a 1/3 of the tanks were painted,,,,another 1/3 were marcited and the rest we used this product called sbc.....................everybody held pretty good for awhile...say about 2 years raybo calling me ,,,I've noticed several tanks are leaking now.....and i noticed a few chunks of the walls in the tanks...........................................we ll the marcite,,the sbs and painted tanks are started having issues,,,,,,,,,,wasn't structural,,,,,wasn't the products....it was moisture trapped between the block cells...

painted ones were all the real bad ones and it was about equal failure between the sbc and marcited tanks

we were told well that is whay your are supposed to fill the blocks or use insulating boards on the inside and ouside before apllying the coatings....................................basica lly the condensation built up threw the years,,inside the hollow walls and eventually that moistureworked it's way betwen the blocks and the coating slowly breaking it down......

it is a slow process and unless this systems stands with no issues for 3 years....the point of this test,,,is tempory at best...................

......................I bet alot of people here have no clue what was the results of 70% of the building failures in NJ and surrounding areas was during hurricane sandy,,,which was actually just a strong trop. storm when made landfall............................it wasn't the winds,,,it wasn't the surf, it wasn't the rains....70% of the failure was corrosion of the fastners [nails,screws,clips] and the rebar......................basically it was all rusted away threw the years of moisture exposure..........

so now that is why all coastal community building now has national code that,, has steal has to be tripled or galvanized or stainless and all fasters galv or stainless on structral exterior sections....


so Zac with this in mind of moisture and corrosion have you made any plans for venting the open cells ,,,so that you may prolong the structural integrity of your project................few years later i did one with insulating boards,,,and left one cap un mortar ,,so i could check from time to time,,,,wasn't long even with the insulations boards that i noticed condesation building..............so I drilled vent holes.....seemed to help .....how long after wards it would of held,,,don't know ,,shortley after a grandfather oak took it out....and his brand new corvette that had didn;t even have 12 miles on it yet:uggg:..................can build for that:no:


and I'm curious,,,what you have in this so far...................................just asking because you could do that foot print ,,,using a subcontractor,,,with the same slab and formed poured walls for $1000 including the permit..................any florida concrete sub would be right in that ball park....................I'll post some pictures of the sea wall I had poured this summer..........


now in Raybo's case he just leveled all the tanks and went with the duracast large 800-1000 gallon hards tanks,,,,,,,which he should of done in the 1st place ,,like i told him,,,it was cheaper,,faster,,,more versital and alot easier to move,,if you didn't like it in that spot and then you actually have something you can sell ,,,if you don't want it anymore....

I built all knds of little systems threw the years and everyone of them cost cosiderably more per gallon than buying the stock tanks and then again with the tanks you got something of value later..

just my opinion,,,but anyone serious about fish keeping,, to the point that you will always ahve a qt,emergancy system going at all times.......and the system you want is going to be less than 1000 gallons get a palstic tank............you''l be beter off in the long run ,,finacial,maintenance and re-sale.....


I'm not here trashing Zac or his project ,,,,only question his reasoning..............from his 1st post...........................will the project hold water yes,,,how long is the question......................................mark in my calander now,,,,3 yrs form this date,,,I'm going to drag this thread up,,,call mr. zac,,,see if i cantake him out for a nice lunch and then go see how she holding...................if i eat crow,,in 3 years,,,i usually like it with kc masterpeice ........................how do you like your crow served,Zac..:D:

we all eat crow sometime or another............................so till 3 years from now ,,,I'll sit back and a watch Zacs work,,,it will be very nice looking for sure...

so ZAC jan.25th 2016 we gotta date??????? if so eat a light breakfast,,,,this old fart predicts you'll be eating both the servings of crow


Geez Steve you sure had a fun time typing all that ;) My parents have no plans to move so the only thing that would keep this project from staying for many years is structural integrity. Hopefully everything works out for the best and I can rub it in your face! If not, then I have no problems sharing it with the community. This is only for my curiosity.

Luckily I have taken over as much backyard as possible with their main pond, pavers around that, the large deck, paver walkway and now concrete QT tank so there will be no riding lawn mowers back there. I don't think I would trust my dad with one of those anyways hahahahaha As for the moisture building up inside the hollow blocks...
IF the Xypex operates the way it is supposed to then the cystaline formations will stock moisture from migrating into the open cells. Xypex has been used on the slab, inside the solid poured bottom courses, and it will be used on the interior and exterior of the walls mixed with the SBC. I am still up in the air about the capping of the tank. I am thinking about using 1 x 12 Trex material to finish off the top. I built a massive ocean walkover 5-6 years ago with 1 x 12 trex as a handrail and it has held up really well.

Jan 25th 2016 sounds like a date Steve! As for financials on this project I am at around $425 right now and after the SBC it will be close to $600 As for a solid poured tank it would require roughly 4 yards of concrete for this project which is about $900. I think you might be a little low on your estimate.

Zac

[icu2]

... As for financials on this project I am at around $425 right now and after the SBC it will be close to $600

I think it only took a couple of bags of SBC when I did my filter pit, and it was less than $15/50# bag. :shrug:

[koiman1950]

I think it only took a couple of bags of SBC when I did my filter pit, and it was less than $15/50# bag. :shrug:

Okay, but did you coat both the inside/outside and did you render it with 1/8" or 1/4" thick layer? Was your pit the same size as this project? I agree though, $175 is a bit high but maybe that price includes to cost of the Xypex as well!?

[Zac Penn]

I think it only took a couple of bags of SBC when I did my filter pit, and it was less than $15/50# bag. :shrug:

I have 160 sq ft on the outside of the pond and I expect to be at least 1/4" and in some places 3/8" thick....So that is at least 7 bags
I have 150 sq ft on the inside of the pond and it will be 1/4" thick...That is 6 bags for a total of 13 bags X $15.35 = $199.55 I am hoping I do not use all of that and can return 1-2 bags due to over estimating the square footage ;) Based on what technical support told me the cement content of the SBC is around 20% of the weight. 50 lbs bag at 20% cement = 10 lbs of cement. Xypex is to be dosed at no more than 3% of the total cement weight which = .3 lbs per bag or 3.9 lbs total or $10.53 based on my 10 lbs bag pricing.

[koiman1950]

I have 160 sq ft on the outside of the pond and I expect to be at least 1/4" and in some places 3/8" thick....So that is at least 7 bags
I have 150 sq ft on the inside of the pond and it will be 1/4" thick...That is 6 bags for a total of 13 bags X $15.35 = $199.55 I am hoping I do not use all of that and can return 1-2 bags due to over estimating the square footage ;) Based on what technical support told me the cement content of the SBC is around 20% of the weight. 50 lbs bag at 20% cement = 10 lbs of cement. Xypex is to be dosed at no more than 3% of the total cement weight which = .3 lbs per bag or 3.9 lbs total or $10.53 based on my 10 lbs bag pricing.

Yes, but you will still have to buy the 10lb bag!lol

[Russell Peters]

yes, but you will still have to buy the 10lb bag!lol

:d:

[icu2]

Okay, but did you coat both the inside/outside and did you render it with 1/8" or 1/4" thick layer? Was your pit the same size as this project? I agree though, $175 is a bit high but maybe that price includes to cost of the Xypex as well!?

I coated both sides, I only used an 1/8" and I doubt my pit was exactly the same size as Zac's project... I was just saying the estimate seemed high
for what I could see of the project area... even doubling the depth of coverage.

[pearlharborday]

Geez Steve you sure had a fun time typing all that ;) My parents have no plans to move so the only thing that would keep this project from staying for many years is structural integrity. Hopefully everything works out for the best and I can rub it in your face! If not, then I have no problems sharing it with the community. This is only for my curiosity.

Luckily I have taken over as much backyard as possible with their main pond, pavers around that, the large deck, paver walkway and now concrete QT tank so there will be no riding lawn mowers back there. I don't think I would trust my dad with one of those anyways hahahahaha As for the moisture building up inside the hollow blocks...
IF the Xypex operates the way it is supposed to then the cystaline formations will stock moisture from migrating into the open cells. Xypex has been used on the slab, inside the solid poured bottom courses, and it will be used on the interior and exterior of the walls mixed with the SBC. I am still up in the air about the capping of the tank. I am thinking about using 1 x 12 Trex material to finish off the top. I built a massive ocean walkover 5-6 years ago with 1 x 12 trex as a handrail and it has held up really well.

Jan 25th 2016 sounds like a date Steve! As for financials on this project I am at around $425 right now and after the SBC it will be close to $600 As for a solid poured tank it would require roughly 4 yards of concrete for this project which is about $900. I think you might be a little low on your estimate.

Zacit is a date,,,,,,,and yes with what you are paying for the materials yes,,,but what a contractor pays no......you are paying almost 2 times as i can the products for. and i pay 40% more than my buddy who averages about 30 yards a day..........



just had 19 yards fiber mix 5500 poured with the pump truck less than 2K,,,threw cemex.......have reciept will post if any doubts...........and I know your concrete is most likely 3500 mix which is about 30% less in cost,,,than the mix is was required on the sea wall...........


when i called and got 7 different estimates ,,,everyone was with dollars of each other ,,all pretty close across the board...so I'm betting my estimate is dead on...........with all the properties and other stuff i'm tied up with ,,,i pull about 12-20 permits for concrete a year..........I really have a good grasp on contruction costs and repairs..........in our whole entire,, state of florida...rarley do the quotes vary by much

.else were ,,no clue...............

[Zac Penn]

it is a date,,,,,,,and yes with what you are paying for the materials yes,,,but what a contractor pays no......you are paying almost 2 times as i can the products for. and i pay 40% more than my buddy who averages about 30 yards a day..........

You said it right there!!!!!! Just because a contractor gets it for 50% off what I can, doesn't mean he is going to charge me with that good rate. Maybe if I knew a guy then I could get within your budget, but just cold calling people I know I would have been charge retail pricing for concrete and then gotten a discount on the labor. However I would have completely passed over this opportunity to bicker with you ;) hahaha And potentially the chance of rubbing your face in my victory in three years :yahoo::yahoo:

[Zac Penn]

Yes, but you will still have to buy the 10lb bag!lol

It looks like I am going to end up with an extra 10 lbs bag of admix. I went ahead and got 30 lbs thinking I might have to do a stucco mix on top, but i don't think so. Maybe I can make a doggie pool for my parents and eliminate even more grass in the back yard hahahaha

[pearlharborday]

It looks like I am going to end up with an extra 10 lbs bag of admix. I went ahead and got 30 lbs thinking I might have to do a stucco mix on top, but i don't think so. Maybe I can make a doggie pool for my parents and eliminate even more grass in the back yard hahahaha

I like your thinking,,,,ponds ,pavers anything over mowing the grass

[pearlharborday]

You said it right there!!!!!! Just because a contractor gets it for 50% off what I can, doesn't mean he is going to charge me with that good rate. Maybe if I knew a guy then I could get within your budget, but just cold calling people I know I would have been charge retail pricing for concrete and then gotten a discount on the labor. However I would have completely passed over this opportunity to bicker with you ;) hahaha And potentially the chance of rubbing your face in my victory in three years :yahoo::yahoo:I'll eat crow just fine ,,,,,,try to rub my face in something,,,,you better have a fully loaded assualt riffle;)

and for the estimate zac,,,,4 of thise estimate deanna went and drop the plans off and set up the quote meeting.....so if any of those prices should of been high ,,,it most likelly would have the quote she got......but actaully it was one her quote we went with.................2004 2005 ya,,,,full mark up was the way,,,,but now with a slow building phase ,,,people just want to keep their people paid ,working and company going for greener days ahead............constructions costs as of now are cheaper than they have been in the last 30 years..............materail costs and stronger codes and regualtions aside ,,,,,profit and construction per sq. ft is at a all time low,,,,,,factoring in inflation...

your rough dry ins are problly the most reasonable priced products in the whole world......when you put all the factors in...........................................it is the fancy interior stuff were the mark ups are out of this world

[crsublette]

I have 160 sq ft on the outside of the pond and I expect to be at least 1/4" and in some places 3/8" thick....So that is at least 7 bags
I have 150 sq ft on the inside of the pond and it will be 1/4" thick...That is 6 bags for a total of 13 bags X $15.35 = $199.55 I am hoping I do not use all of that and can return 1-2 bags due to over estimating the square footage ;) Based on what technical support told me the cement content of the SBC is around 20% of the weight. 50 lbs bag at 20% cement = 10 lbs of cement. Xypex is to be dosed at no more than 3% of the total cement weight which = .3 lbs per bag or 3.9 lbs total or $10.53 based on my 10 lbs bag pricing.

Does Xypex become less effective when dosed higher than 3% ?? Or ... Is it just a waste of material when going above 3% ??

I've never used the stuff so I'm trying to get more familiar with it as I am reading along.

Thanks Zac.

[koiman1950]

Does Xypex become less effective when dosed higher than 3% ?? Or ... Is it just a waste of material when going above 3% ??

I've never used the stuff so I'm trying to get more familiar with it as I am reading along.

Thanks Zac.

Good question. I'm not sure when measuring smaller amounts like this, but I know the general rule with pool builders/Xypex suppliers is usually 10lb per cu yd of gunite! Yes, it's a basic starting off point, it can/will also depend on the amount of concrete (sack rate) used in the gunite/shotcrete/concrete mix. There are variables that would change the amount of Xypex required.

[crsublette]

Good question. I'm not sure when measuring smaller amounts like this, but I know the general rule with pool builders/Xypex suppliers is usually 10lb per cu yd of gunite! Yes, it's a basic starting off point, it can/will also depend on the amount of concrete (sack rate) used in the gunite/shotcrete/concrete mix. There are variables that would change the amount of Xypex required.

Very good. I should further clarify. Applying the two questions in the context of mixing it with SBC... what ya think?

[koiman1950]

Very good. I should further clarify. Applying the two questions in the context of mixing it with SBC... what ya think?

Couldn't say for sure, but the real deciding factor is still the amount of cement in the mix. That's all that counts. If Zac says 3%, good enough for me. I did ask our Xypex rep on one occasion about a year or so ago, but I can't remember just what he said. All I know is that we use 10lbs/c.y. gunite with a 6 sack mix rate.

[crsublette]

I can be Mr. Overkill so I might go fore 4%. Now, if effectiveness don't change, then I might just accept the fact and go with 3%.

[Zac Penn]

Does Xypex become less effective when dosed higher than 3% ?? Or ... Is it just a waste of material when going above 3% ??

I've never used the stuff so I'm trying to get more familiar with it as I am reading along.

Thanks Zac.

I knew once i got off the phone with Yon that I should have asked that very question. I will call him next week and see what he says. Xypex is effective from 2%-3% based on cement weight so I don't think there is a reason to go over 3%. I will let you know though.

Zac

[Russell Peters]

I can be Mr. Overkill so I might go fore 4%. Now, if effectiveness don't change, then I might just accept the fact and go with 3%.

You shoud go 4.125% just to be safe...

[richtoybox]

In Mike's 10 pound per cubic yard for a 6 sack mix, that is slightly less than 2%, since the 6 sack mix has 564 pounds of cement, ie one sack equals 94 pounds.

[icu2]

My rep said 2%... and the bag says 2-3%... fwiw.

[Russell Peters]

I think any more is probably just a waste. I don't think over saturation of Xypex would cause any harm...

[Zac Penn]

I want to start this update by saying how much I respect the work that stucco finishers do!!!!!!! It is not an easy thing to get the hang of and it will wear you out quick. My body is so freaking sore and I have another giant blister on my trowel hand. I am so glad that I started on the small side of the pond because I couldn't really mess anything up there. I was able to get a pretty good feel for thickness and correct trowel positioning. I could easily run my straight edge from cornerbead to cornerbead and make sure the SBC was going on straight. When I moved over to the long front wall I started in the center of the wall and used a mason string from cornerbead to corner bead to get my thickness right and then moved toward the corners. Once you get the feel for how the trowel lays up the mud if is easier (still not easy though) to keep the thickness right as you move along. It certainly isn't perfect but I am pretty happy with it...(The discoloring on the short wall is just from the drying. The surface is not as jacked up as the coloring makes it look)
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130128_162111_zps015fbdea.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130128_162125_zps60f10163.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130128_162136_zps7dd2c4d3.jpg

As for the Xypex I ended up using a small plastic container that holds 4 Fl Oz. which is pretty darn close to the .3 lbs per 50 lbs bag of SBC. I ended up using seven bags on the outside of the tank and expect to use about 5 bags on the inside. I still need to apply another bag to the wall close to my dirt pile once I get it removed from the backyard. I just wanted to get a skim coat on there today so the wall was semi-secured when i do the inside. I will have to climb over the walls so i don't want them shifting as all as I do this.

I am going to lay down now ;)
Zac

[Paultergeist]

Wow, Zac......looks nice. While I myself would probably have erred on the side of caution with more reinforcement -- a point already beaten to death -- I have to tell you that this effort is none-the-less impressive. I truly admire your fearlessness as far as trying new things and rapidly acquiring new skills (i.e. stucco, cutting concrete block, etc).

I hope your efforts pan out well....

Paul

[Zac Penn]

Wow, Zac......looks nice. While I myself would probably have erred on the side of caution with more reinforcement -- a point already beaten to death -- I have to tell you that this effort is none-the-less impressive. I truly admire your fearlessness as far as trying new things and rapidly acquiring new skills (i.e. stucco, cutting concrete block, etc).

I hope your efforts pan out well....

Paul


Me too my friend!!!!!!! Thanks for the props.

[icu2]

Looks good! I know your pain. :D:

It looked like you filled the cells on the first two rows and no others? Not saying that's good, bad, or indifferent...
just wondered what the experiment would ultimately have.

I do remember that the SBC bag saying it was not to be used with mortar in the joints, and I've always wondered
why... did that come up in talking with the rep, or do you know?

:pullup:

[crsublette]

Stop being such a girlie man. Don't let the pain tell you what to do. Get back to work. ;) :winks: :D:

[Russell Peters]

I want to start this update by saying how much I respect the work that stucco finishers do!!!!!!! It is not an easy thing to get the hang of and it will wear you out quick. My body is so freaking sore and I have another giant blister on my trowel hand. I am so glad that I started on the small side of the pond because I couldn't really mess anything up there. I was able to get a pretty good feel for thickness and correct trowel positioning. I could easily run my straight edge from cornerbead to cornerbead and make sure the SBC was going on straight. When I moved over to the long front wall I started in the center of the wall and used a mason string from cornerbead to corner bead to get my thickness right and then moved toward the corners. Once you get the feel for how the trowel lays up the mud if is easier (still not easy though) to keep the thickness right as you move along. It certainly isn't perfect but I am pretty happy with it...(The discoloring on the short wall is just from the drying. The surface is not as jacked up as the coloring makes it look)

As for the Xypex I ended up using a small plastic container that holds 4 Fl Oz. which is pretty darn close to the .3 lbs per 50 lbs bag of SBC. I ended up using seven bags on the outside of the tank and expect to use about 5 bags on the inside. I still need to apply another bag to the wall close to my dirt pile once I get it removed from the backyard. I just wanted to get a skim coat on there today so the wall was semi-secured when i do the inside. I will have to climb over the walls so i don't want them shifting as all as I do this.

I am going to lay down now ;)
Zac


C'mon, this has happened before...

[Paultergeist]

C'mon, this has happened before...

Ooooohhhh! (LOL) Oh no you didn't just say that.....!

[Zac Penn]

C'mon, this has happened before...

HAHAHA Yeah I had two big ones from my sawzall when i was cutting away all the old landscape timbers. They were right on the inside of my index finger so every time I rubbed my nose the sharp edges would aggravate my poor little nosy :(

Now they are finally healed and I have another blister on my palm. I have to brush my teeth with my left hand now hahahahahahaha

[pearlharborday]

yep stucco guys have forearms of steel,,,,,,concrete guys are a different breed all together......7 am trowlel in one hand,, budwieser in the other............I swear after years and years the portland has absorbed into their systems

[Russell Peters]

Ooooohhhh! (LOL) Oh no you didn't just say that.....!

:yo:

[mpageler]

Have been away from Koiphen for awhile and just skimmed this thread quickly. As a "dry stacker" myself, several general thoughts on the technique

For anyone doing a liner install, I highly recommend dry stacking versus motar joints, simple from a time perspective. I also don't see any needed to glue the blocks together to keep them in alignment until cell filling..kind of defeats the purpose of dry stacking. Using SBC is a waste of money and time for a liner install. What additional strength it adds is minor to the cell rebar and filling.

For anyone going with a sealer instead of a liner, don't know that I would recommend dry stacking. You leave too many end block joints open for water seapage and then have to hope your surface sealer holds up or doesn't crack. So for a seal pond, would suggest going the motared joint route.

That's the plus side of a liner, you don't have to have crack proof block walls, just stable walls. So the soil type and it's shrink/swell potential is much less of a consideration. Having your footer below the frost line on a liner block wall install, is IMO, over hyped. Pond footers versus building footers are too different animals.

[icu2]

... Using SBC is a waste of money and time for a liner install. What additional strength it adds is minor to the cell rebar and filling.

For anyone going with a sealer instead of a liner, don't know that I would recommend dry stacking. You leave too many end block joints open for water seapage and then have to hope your surface sealer holds up or doesn't crack. So for a seal pond, would suggest going the motared joint route.

Did yours fail when you used SBC instead of filled cells and rebar with a liner? And leak when you used the SBC and sealer?

[Russell Peters]

:pullup:

[The Koi Dude]

:pullup:

I see you desided to join me.. :D: orville redenbacher anyone.:D:

[Russell Peters]

I see you desided to join me.. :D: orville redenbacher anyone.:D:


It just got better...:jive:

[mpageler]

Did yours fail when you used SBC instead of filled cells and rebar with a liner? And leak when you used the SBC and sealer?

I dry stacked with cell rebar and filling. I did not use SBC because I felt it was a wasted step since the walls are already overbuilt for peace of mind. Pond walls are sound in a zone 4 climate after 4 years. IMO, nobody should ever consider using SBC in lieu of cell filling/rebar.

[Russell Peters]

:pullup:

[Zac Penn]

Stupid Old Man Winter decided to stop by for the next week or so, thus no more progress. My next and wrist are still sore from coating the outside of the pond so I can't complain too much. Honestly.... Based on how much work it is to apply a nice thick coat of SBC to the block walls I will NOT be doing this type of work again. Unless I hired a stucco crew to do it for me ;) I can fabricate all day long, but I am too old/weak/LAZY for manual labor anymore HAHAHAHAHAHA

[jimfish98]

Stupid Old Man Winter decided to stop by for the next week or so, thus no more progress. My next and wrist are still sore from coating the outside of the pond so I can't complain too much. Honestly.... Based on how much work it is to apply a nice thick coat of SBC to the block walls I will NOT be doing this type of work again. Unless I hired a stucco crew to do it for me ;) I can fabricate all day long, but I am too old/weak/LAZY for manual labor anymore HAHAHAHAHAHA

He's tricky alright. Was 86 yesterday and 65 today...

[Joey S]

On your "angled" corner, are you planning to do any type of steel reinforcement along with adding the concrete? I seem to recall Becky had a problem with her pond walls pulling apart even WITH concrete filled cells due to the lack of proper steel reinforcement!?That would be Emily, and the cells were not all filled with concrete. If you look closely, there was not mortar in all the joints; or if there was mortar, the blocks were dry which sucked all the water out of the mortar and no bond was created; not all the blocks were laided overlaping in the corners; the blocks were of different styles and composition so that they were never properly bonded to each other. It was a disaster waiting to happen and no one said, hey wait a minute until it was too late.


Woh, alot of pressure ... maybe? SBC is the super extra strength polident of concrete, correct? :yes:
Maybe? But this little experiment might shed some light on that.


Laying my head on my desk sideways so I can properly orient to view the picture... :Argh:
Did some of those cinder blocks actually bust in half ?? :yes: see above comments.


Yes, because they were not filled properly. Here is the whole thread, you like to read...
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?121436-Bekko-s-Pond-Construction-Opelika-AL&highlight=block+wall+failuresMaybe filling would have helped. But the bigger problem was improper mortar, dissimilar blocks and layout. I'm not sure there was a proper footer either.


YES! I think SBC would have kept that wall together. That corner broke apart due to tensile forces...NOT compression forces. The fiberglass fibers combined within the cement are much stronger than the bond between type-s mortar and a dusty concrete block. I truly doubt that each block was sprayed down with water before having the mortar slapped onto it so the bond between the two is not very strong. The dry-stacked block wall is to be sprayed down with water before the SBC is applied so a stronger bond is achieved between the block and cement and the strength of the coating is greater than that of mortar.

Zac

Yep...big problems on that build, but Emily pressed on.

[pearlharborday]

Stupid Old Man Winter decided to stop by for the next week or so, thus no more progress. My next and wrist are still sore from coating the outside of the pond so I can't complain too much. Honestly.... Based on how much work it is to apply a nice thick coat of SBC to the block walls I will NOT be doing this type of work again. Unless I hired a stucco crew to do it for me ;) I can fabricate all day long, but I am too old/weak/LAZY for manual labor anymore HAHAHAHAHAHAprobally good,, a delay in contstruction,,,,a good cure time......may give you a little a little more play ,,when climbing in to finish the inside..............................if there are cold over lap joints on your coating,,,they will most likelly show during this cold snap.

[Zac Penn]

probally good,, a delay in contstruction,,,,a good cure time......may give you a little a little more play ,,when climbing in to finish the inside..............................if there are cold over lap joints on your coating,,,they will most likelly show during this cold snap.

That is a good point about any weaknesses being exposed during the cold. The outside would have been able to cure for almost two weeks before I can completely finish the inside. I will then let the inside cure for at least a week before filling it up. I don't know how long it will take before an exterior paint finish can be applied due to the Xypex crystalline reaction. Mom may have to look at an ugly grey wall for a while ;)

Zac

[jimfish98]

That is a good point about any weaknesses being exposed during the cold. The outside would have been able to cure for almost two weeks before I can completely finish the inside. I will then let the inside cure for at least a week before filling it up. I don't know how long it will take before an exterior paint finish can be applied due to the Xypex crystalline reaction. Mom may have to look at an ugly grey wall for a while ;)

Zac

She can deal for the free labor, lol.

[koiman1950]

That is a good point about any weaknesses being exposed during the cold. The outside would have been able to cure for almost two weeks before I can completely finish the inside. I will then let the inside cure for at least a week before filling it up. I don't know how long it will take before an exterior paint finish can be applied due to the Xypex crystalline reaction. Mom may have to look at an ugly grey wall for a while ;)

Zac

Zac

The crystallization process halts when no moisture is detected, but will resume if any returns. So, as long as it has cured for a week and the block and SBC is dry, go ahead and paint the exterior! No harm, no foul!lol

[pearlharborday]

tell her she needs to wait till mid april threw early may for a paint job.............best time to paint anything like conrete and wood,, in florida,,,,,,,,it is a very dry time and longer days ,,with very little moisture in the air...........

[Zac Penn]

I am sure you guys didn't forget about me! The weather has been off and on so I had to work in patches, but I have gotten the inside of the pond completed.

I didn't take a finished picture for this day but I got a 1/3rd's done picture ;)
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130130_101446_zps57a9574f.jpg
You can see the two different thickness levels of the SBC. I laid out a very thin layer and paid special attention to wiggle and giggle the material very well to make sure it made a good bond with the concrete block. I then went back over the first layer with a thick layer to get a nice 1/4"+ thickness.

I finished the inside coat about a week ago and the weather started getting cold again so I had to wait until today to finish up the conners. I wanted to make a nice thick joint at all four corners, so I used a high torque drill and paddle to mix up the SBC/Xypex a little on the thick side so the vertical joints wouldn't want to slip down the wall. I used a 3" wide putty knife for the corner joints.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130208_121639_zpsc32c2dae.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130208_121654_zpsdb32c4db.jpg

I then did the same thing for the bottom cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor. This should allow the crystalline formation to grow in the corners and seal things up nicely.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130208_133144_zpsc11f0d21.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130208_133155_zps0de20f06.jpg

Tomorrow I am renting a very small front end loader to remove the large dirt pile from the back yard. My friends dad has a dump trailer, and he needs the dirt for his backyard so we both win! Once the dirt is removed I can dig out the sprinkler valves and pour a concrete pad for the filtration area. Updates to follow!

Zac

[jimfish98]

looking good

[catfish whiskers]

It's almost cannonball time :swim:

[Joey S]

OK, I'm a little confused with this "experiment".

Watching the Xypex video on the home page: http://www.xypex.com/about
I see its used on new concrete for waterproofing.

Cementitious Crystalline Waterproofing: Blend of portland cement, fine treated silica sand and active proprietary chemicals. When mixed with water and applied as a cementitious coating, the active chemicals cause a catalytic reaction which generates a non-soluble crystalline formation of dendritic fibers within the pores and capillary tracts of concrete. This process causes concrete to become permanently sealed against the penetration of liquids from any direction.

After searching for SBC and eliminating the Southern Baptist Church :D:, I found this from the Quickcrete site:

ADVANTAGES
• One-coat application provides both structural strength and textured
finish
• Integral color capability eliminates painting
• Creates concrete block wall with greater flexural and racking
strength than conventional mortar construction
• Increased productivity and lower in-place cost when using drystacked
concept
• Improved fire, water, air and sound control properties
• Thermal insulation benefits
• Low maintenance costs
• Variety of finishes and accent capabilities
• Damp-proofing of basement walls
• No additional waterproofing necessary for water storage containers

The red on the last is mine. So I am wondering why use the xypex? If the SBC provides enough "waterproofing" for water storage containers, why the need for xypex? Plus, you can add colorant which eliminates painting. They say nothing about "filling" the empty blocks for strenght. Sounds like a miracle product for pond builders. :thinking:

So...what am I missing?

[Zac Penn]

There is a good chance that the sbc would hold water on it's own, but I didn't want to risk it. Especially if a small crack ever developed it would not seal itself. However Xypex is a self repairing material so if anything ends up cracking the crystalline formations will fill the crack. I hope a crack doesn't develop but I wanted to have a just in case plan.

I got the dirt removed today but I was operating the equipment so no pictures of the fun part. Here is a generic video of someone demoing the Boxer 320...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKKRxuXBsV8

No more large pile of dirt...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130209_165420_zpsd97c5f93.jpg

I got the sprinkler valves cut out and lines capped. We will relocate them further back away from the filter area. I also dug out around the bottom drain lines so I could work with them soon. Instead of running a 90 out of the ground I am going to use a 45, to bring the pipes above ground, then another 45 to bring it back horizontal for my airlift manifolds.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20130209_165411_zpsa785a70c.jpg

More to come,
Zac

[icu2]

I was told that part of the Quikwall's claim of SBC being "waterproof" is based on the use of acrylic fortifier, which shouldn't
be used with the Xypex... but with that said, my filter pit seeps water through the SBC even with the fortifier.
Honestly, I don't know how they can put that on the bag. Sarah (sworley) experienced the same thing with her build.

:twocents:

[Joey S]

I was told that part of the Quikwall's claim of SBC being "waterproof" is based on the use of acrylic fortifier, which shouldn't
be used with the Xypex... but with that said, my filter pit seeps water through the SBC even with the fortifier.
Honestly, I don't know how they can put that on the bag. Sarah (sworley) experienced the same thing with her build.

:twocents:

I welcome your :twocents: as will anyone else reading here. The proof is in the pudding and seems the SBC pudding isn't quite up to our high standards. So, Zac...it's up to you to see how your pudding turns out. :D:

[koiman1950]

I was told that part of the Quikwall's claim of SBC being "waterproof" is based on the use of acrylic fortifier, which shouldn't
be used with the Xypex... but with that said, my filter pit seeps water through the SBC even with the fortifier.
Honestly, I don't know how they can put that on the bag. Sarah (sworley) experienced the same thing with her build.

:twocents:

Very easily Steve. I bit of ink in the stamper is all it takes. I love marketing hype!?!?!? Don't you? Makes my day!

Joey, there are also two types of Xypex we normally use. One is the Admix which is added to the batch concrete when mixed either for shotcrete or gunite applications. It can also be mixed into the concrete that is used to fill block cells as icu2 did. I would NOT use SBC or thoroseal or any other product as a stand alone sealer in the interior of the pond, even with acrylic fortifiers added. They don't create the same product when cured that Xypex does, as Zac mentioned.

[Russell Peters]

It's almost cannonball time :swim:

:pullup:

[vipertom1970]

Zac, I don't mean to be negative but I see no strength on the 4 walls without vertical and horizontal rebar or solid grouted and also the corners are very weak.

[Zac Penn]

Zac, I don't mean to be negative but I see no strength on the 4 walls without vertical and horizontal rebar or solid grouted and also the corners are very weak.

Thanks for the heads up! We will just have to wait and see ;)

[Russell Peters]

:pullup:

[mat4644]

Is this a Zakki Sieve, MC-50 and Zakki Shower application?

[Zac Penn]

:pullup:

Sorry for the delay... I was walking in the back yard, tripped on a root and fell into the side of the pond wall. The whole side of the wall fell into the pond so this project is a bust :(

Zac

[Zac Penn]

J/K I have been busy with other things and the weather has been cold so I haven't been able to finish the last little bit of SBC on the exterior wall. I will get back at it once the CFKS is over next weekend.

Zac

[jimfish98]

Anything good for the show?

[Russell Peters]

Sorry for the delay... I was walking in the back yard, tripped on a root and fell into the side of the pond wall. The whole side of the wall fell into the pond so this project is a bust :(

Zac

Take your time, no hurry.:D:

[seamonkey]

What ever became of this experiment?

[Zac Penn]

HAHAHAHA It has been, ummmmmmmmmm, lets say "curing" for a couple months to make sure the SBC is good and strong ;) We had really bad weather, then i got busy with other projects, but I am starting to get back to it. I will hopefully have some updates soon!

[Zac Penn]

Well I made a little more progress on the pond. I didn't show what I did with the bottom drains earlier so I figured I would document that for you. These are DWV 3" 90's that I drilled a hole in the bottom of and thermowelded a 3/4" coupler inside to be used as a standpipe for the air diffusers. I measured the correct distance of pipe so I would have a 3/8" gap from the concrete floor and the air diffuser and glue on a female threaded adapter for the diffuser to screw into.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_130522_zpsab69e5d0.jpghttp://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_130535_zps62c3f9ff.jpghttp://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_131606_zpsc3b23aff.jpg

Once that was done I was able to start filling up the pond and see if the interior coating would be water tight, and if the SBC would keep the walls from shifting/cracking/falling apart ;)

http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135412_zpse7f55d01.jpg

I don't want to say that I didn't have faith in the SBC or Xypex but this was such a thin coating on the inside I just didn't know if it would work. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it, but the inside of the concrete block cells was bone dry except for a few small areas that had only the slightest bit of discoloring due to moisture. I don't have a picture of it as proof yet, and it rained like crazy this afternoon so who knows how long it will take to dry back out. Once dry I will take some pictures for you disbelievers HAHAHA

Based on internal measurements we have 1170 gallons inside the pond.

[Zac Penn]

Wow I figured there would have been more response to the fact that it held water ;)

It has been raining every day so i haven't been able to show the dryness of the inner cells, but it is coming as soon as things dry out.

[creekds]

I for one am glad that it worked, because I plan to use this product this fall/winter.

[seamonkey]

....you may have stumbled upon something :bravo:
Although I don't think I would skip the rebar and cell fill :cool3:

[icu2]

Personally I didn't doubt it'd hold water since you used the Xypex, and I've witnessed that...
but I'm hoping that the SBC alone adds enough strength to make the hollow cells viable. And I
think only time will tell that for sure. :)

It looks great! :wtg:

[Zac Penn]

....you may have stumbled upon something :bravo:
Although I don't think I would skip the rebar and cell fill :cool3:

I would not do this with a customers pond! I am purely doing this for $hit$ and giggles to see how strong these fiberglass particles really are. Honestly I was freaking out when the pond was filling because I got called away to another local customers pond and I didn't watch the whole time. I told my mom to call me when it was full to make sure everything was okay. When she called I was ready to issue an apology but she gave me good news instead. I guess only time will tell as to whether PearlHarborDay will eat his lunch or if I will in two years ;)

Either way it holds water, it seems VERY strong, and only a 1/4" of SBC and Xypex has waterproofed this pond!

[dharlow]

Can you give us an update Zac? Still holding up fine?

[archimedes]

This is a really interesting build.

Any problems so far?

[Zac Penn]

You would bring this up ;) Everything is just fine, walls are holding strong, PH has stabilized, fish are happy, Mom is happy! One of these days it will get painted and I will have a proper follow up on the filtration system, but I am giving it time to show any issues before I start talking about how great it is ;) Just as a preview...
Two aerated bottom drains > Two Deepwater Airlift Manifolds > Customized RDF > Submerged Cermedia Bio-Filter > Four underwater return jets

1200 gallons of water, 3500 GPH, 80 watts of electricity. I could run this pond on 40 watts and 2400 GPH but I figured I had a Hakko 80 so I might as well use it.

[Zac Penn]

So it is roughly the 2 year anniversary of this pond and I figured it was time to provide some updated pictures. Somehow they were never published...

Two 3" bottom drain pipes heading up to the two Deepwater Airlift Manifolds
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_090114_zpsbe533ac7.jpg

Here you can see the three 2" gravity fed return lines.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135156_zps94c4ed21.jpg

Super Secret Filtration System...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135431_zpsec14ded4.jpg

This is a Recirculating Hydraulic Style pond so the return lines push straight along the bottom toward the aerated bottom drains. The aeration pushes the water up the far wall to the surface, and then pushes the surface debris over toward the near wall.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130524_161148_zps4f667272.jpg

I did not install a skimmer on this pond, so all of the surface debris just sits at the surface closest toward the filtration (like the pine needle) until it is manually or until it sinks and the bottom drains handle it.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130524_161230_zpsc813db90.jpg

[Zac Penn]

Okay so the Super Secret Filtration System is not so secret anymore ;) The biological filtration box has the three 2" return lines welded into the bottom of the filter.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135450_zps9ab33efa.jpg

The bottom has a perforated grate that supports the Cermedia and keeps it roughly 2" off the bottom.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135528_zps6e14be0b.jpg

The inlet pipe is a 4" pipe that is gravity fed from the mechanical filter.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135539_zps341d8a24.jpg

:w00t::w00t::w00t: Now the Airlift Powered Rotary Drum Filter...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135559_zps6756a392.jpg

The water is pushed into the filter by the airlift riser tubes...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135606_zpsa9f1dfd9.jpg

The dirty water rises up and spills into the micro screen drum...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135617_zps525f0b19.jpg

Here are a few pics that show the axle for the drum. It is an 8" diameter pvc coupler that has been modified to act as and axle for the drum, and inlet/waste tray as well.
This is the waster outlet side of the axle...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130204_173513_zps0e5cfc1d.jpg

This is the inlet side of the axle...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130204_173526_zps995ac233.jpg

Spray bar shoots the waste off of the screen and into the waste trough were it is sloped down to a waste chamber. I built it this way so I could either hold all the waste water in the chamber and dump it all at once, or I could leave the ball valve open and let it flow to waste as it is flushed out of the filter.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135642_zpse1fc7d95.jpg

The filter has two float switches... One for drum cleaning and the other for system shutdown incase the filter stops cleaning for some reason.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135704_zps7921a0a3.jpg

I know it seems like "old news" now that there is another RDF that is rotated by water power, but here is my turbine system that uses the pressurized jet pump water to rotate the drum during a cleaning cycle.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/20130515_135714_zps3a50ce58.jpg

This entire filtration system was built specifically to test out this turbine drive system for long term use. While there have been small fails with the RDF itself, the turbine drive system has function PERFECTLY for the last two years and shows no signs of wear. I am very surprised by that seeing as how the turbine is spinning at around 10,000 RPM when it cycles, which is roughly every 30 minutes. It has cycle roughly 34,000 times since it was installed, so it has proven itself as a viable drive solution for an RDF.

In the above picture you can also see the drive belt system that was used initially. This was just a synchronous timing belt screwed onto the circumference of the drum, and then another belt meshed onto the drum and attached to a timing belt pulley. This worked for a while, but the small screws holding the belt to the drum were tearing the belt and it was just FAR too primitive to be a long term solution. I kept looking for other products and came across a plastic gear strip that I could affix to the drum. I had been testing out at the warehouse when i got a call that the timing belt finally failed on the drum so I had to rush over and swap things out so it looks pretty junky now but it works just fine...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164609_zps8ugydjgc.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164558_zps3nzo6l6i.jpg

Here is a quick video of the turbine spinning the drum and spray bars cleaning the screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icvr9tO3sQ8&feature=youtu.be

The area that the system was installed is a pretty low elevation and hold water in the ground for a long time. But here is how things have changed around the QT itself...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164857_zpssqu0ny5j.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164842_zpsi4moxd46.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164457_zpsdgspymte.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164316_zpsigu2gakd.jpg

This is a picture of the overflow drain, and a float switch that triggers the auto refill on the pond.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164246_zpscmsvm1tl.jpg

The pond walls have been holding up just fine. No cracks or leaks, so I am very happy with the SBC as a structural support for this tank. My dad has been saying he was going to paint it for years now so I guess I am just going to have to do it one day myself ;)
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164150_zpsljbfo6ns.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150130_164131_zpsw9ooimk7.jpg

[Zac Penn]

So now that I know the turbine drive system will work just fine I can beef it up substantially and work it into my direct suction RDF I have been working for for a couple years...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150123_094712_zpsbpi6scq4.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150126_174919_zpsxiye51cb.jpg

The axle has been replaced with bearings that the RDF rides on and the drum has a custom lip seal that I had manufactured just for this filter. I will have some more info with pictures and videos of it's testing soon enough for you.

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

Ah Ha!! I was searching Google images a while back and saw this prototype. What type of flow rates are you getting out if the direct suction rdf?

[Zac Penn]

ah ha!! I was searching google images a while back and saw this prototype. What type of flow rates are you getting out if the direct suction rdf?

10k gph ;)

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

10k gph ;)
You never cease to amaze me. So this is the next logical step after the Zakki Sieve?

Since its a suction vessel, I assume it follows the installation requirements of the zakki sieve, i.e: above water level etc?

[Bortan]

Sweet! Are we going to see this RDF at the CFKS this March? Any pricing?

I'm 3 weeks away from having my masons redo my front driveway and I am 60/40 on expanding the pond from 2000 gallons to 6000 gallons with proper BDs and cinder block walls and a cermedia shower. This RDF might put me over the edge!

[Bortan]

Where are you getting the "custom lip seal" I think I told you about a year ago... I design seals for Parker Hannifin Engineered Materials Group, (http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.338f315e827b2c6315731910237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=01467433cb65e210VgnVCM10000048021dacRCR D&vgnextfmt=EN&vgnextfmt=EN&vgnextcat=PTFE+LIP+SEALS&vgnextcatid=2633715&vgnextdiv=687567&productcategory=productline)

we are the big boys on the block.. give me some details.



So now that I know the turbine drive system will work just fine I can beef it up substantially and work it into my direct suction RDF I have been working for for a couple years...
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150123_094712_zpsbpi6scq4.jpg
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s429/Zacpenn82/Message%20Board%20Images/20150126_174919_zpsxiye51cb.jpg

The axle has been replaced with bearings that the RDF rides on and the drum has a custom lip seal that I had manufactured just for this filter. I will have some more info with pictures and videos of it's testing soon enough for you.

[jimfish98]

Are you bringing all of these new filters down in March?

[icu2]

Beautiful workmanship as usual Zac! :bow:

Amazing news on the longevity of the hollow block SBC/Xypex combo too. I know
my filter pit dry stacked with SBC after about 7 years is still as solid as a rock. :thumb:

Thanks for the update!

[koiman1950]

Very nice Zak. As we've talked before about the new pressurized RDF, I too am interested in learning much more about it.

[Zac Penn]

I will be making an entire thread about the Zakki RDF soon enough, but I will need people to actually respond to my stuff in my vendor marketplace. I am always adding new stuff to my Facebook page as well.

Yes I will be bringing some pretty cool stuff with me this year. I probably won't have a full running system like I have had the last few years, but individual filters and hopefully some videos of them working or something.

Thanks for the kind words
Zac

[mbrian1226]

Very Impressive!

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

Little known forum function: the sub forum like your "vendor page" can be subscribed to. You'll get a control panel notification whenever a new thread is posted or a reply is posted. Works great if you use Tapatalk so you get notifications pushed to your phone or tablet.

[jimfish98]

Little known forum function: the sub forum like your "vendor page" can be subscribed to. You'll get a control panel notification whenever a new thread is posted or a reply is posted. Works great if you use Tapatalk so you get notifications pushed to your phone or tablet.

I just click the "new post" button every time check out KP. It loads up threads regardless of their sub-forum. If there is one I really like, then I subscribe.

[Zac Penn]

Little known forum function: the sub forum like your "vendor page" can be subscribed to. You'll get a control panel notification whenever a new thread is posted or a reply is posted. Works great if you use Tapatalk so you get notifications pushed to your phone or tablet.

I HAD NO IDEA about that function. Please anyone that likes the type of stuff I do, subscribe to my vendor page so you will be notified of the new things I post.

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

I HAD NO IDEA about that function. Please anyone that likes the type of stuff I do, subscribe to my vendor page so you will be notified of the new things I post.
Paired with Tapatalk, it makes the discussion happen in real time Zac.

[Zac Penn]

I did a little testing with my new aerated retro-fit bottom drains today and I ended up taking a picture of the diffuser at the bottom. I am only posting this incase someone was interested in what a standard stucco grey coating would look like after 2 years of algae growth...
521046

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

I did a little testing with my new aerated retro-fit bottom drains today and I ended up taking a picture of the diffuser at the bottom. I am only posting this incase someone was interested in what a standard stucco grey coating would look like after 2 years of algae growth...
521046
Looks good!

[koiman1950]

I did a little testing with my new aerated retro-fit bottom drains today and I ended up taking a picture of the diffuser at the bottom. I am only posting this incase someone was interested in what a standard stucco grey coating would look like after 2 years of algae growth...
521046

So, at what depth was the test done at? What type of pipe connections were attached to the unit? Did it move at all?

[Zac Penn]

So, at what depth was the test done at? What type of pipe connections were attached to the unit? Did it move at all?

It was a 2" pipe nipple welded onto the drain, at 4' deep, and there was no extra pipe holding it in place. The drain was very secure on the bottom and actually took a good bit of force with my push stick to get it to slide on the bottom. I have a very high level of confidence that this would be secure at any depth.

[koiman1950]

It was a 2" pipe nipple welded onto the drain, at 4' deep, and there was no extra pipe holding it in place. The drain was very secure on the bottom and actually took a good bit of force with my push stick to get it to slide on the bottom. I have a very high level of confidence that this would be secure at any depth.

:bow3::D:

[crsublette]

One of the most informative threads that have helped me tremendously... Glad to see everything worked out.


here the problem with the test ,,,unless this goes on for a 3-5 year trial it means absolutley nothing ,,,accept that this can be done temporay..................

I guess we are coming up to year #3 now... :D:

[icu2]

One of the most informative threads that have helped me tremendously... Glad to see everything worked out.



I guess we are coming up to year #3 now... :D:

:yes: I'd love to hear how it's working out in detail.
I'm done with digging but I have thought about doing something above ground.

[Jaymeseywaymsey]

:yes: I'd love to hear how it's working out in detail.
I'm done with digging but I have thought about doing something above ground.


I feel your pain Steve. On the new backyard I don't think I can get a backhoe up there without tearing up the front landscaping. The thought of hand digging a 10,000 gallon hole troublesome.

[Zac Penn]

One of the most informative threads that have helped me tremendously... Glad to see everything worked out.



I guess we are coming up to year #3 now... :D:

It seems as though you are correct. As of now there has been ZERO issue related to the pond construction. I have changed things around from time to time with the filtration tweaking things, but I have done nothing to the structure itself. Nothing has cracked, or leaked or bowed or anything. I haven't even painted the exterior, like I said I was going to, so it is still the stucco grey color. I am extremely satisfied with this project.

[jimfish98]

It seems as though you are correct. As of now there has been ZERO issue related to the pond construction. I have changed things around from time to time with the filtration tweaking things, but I have done nothing to the structure itself. Nothing has cracked, or leaked or bowed or anything. I haven't even painted the exterior, like I said I was going to, so it is still the stucco grey color. I am extremely satisfied with this project.

Prove it, lol. We need pictures.

[Russell Peters]

I am OK with being wrong...

This has been an interesting thread, it brings something new to us old guys...

[koiman1950]

I agree with Russ! Glad it's still holding up Zac. As this method of construction seems to have held up in this particular location, I would still not recommend that it be followed in many parts of the country as ground movement can still cause issues with block walls constructed in this manner. It is a good testament however to the ability of the SBC and Xypex products to work as stated on their respective labels however.

Btw, Pearl, how did that "crow" taste???LOL

[Jetmek]

Zack. you missed your calling, you would have made one h--- of a aircraft development engineer. you amaze me in the lengths you go to to prove a concept.
Doug

[Zac Penn]

Prove it, lol. We need pictures.

Oh great....Now I have to go see my parents ;)
haha I will try to swing by sometime soon.

[Zac Penn]

Zack. you missed your calling, you would have made one h--- of a aircraft development engineer. you amaze me in the lengths you go to to prove a concept.
Doug

Oh just wait!!!! I have something coming up soon that should be very interesting to everyone. I will release details once I get it dialed in and tested.
Thanks for the compliment,
Zac

[Bortan]

Nice! Can we count on something new at the Koi Show in Orlando?



Oh just wait!!!! I have something coming up soon that should be very interesting to everyone. I will release details once I get it dialed in and tested.
Thanks for the compliment,
Zac

[Zac Penn]

Hopefully!

[Zac Penn]

Okay well the time has come to do some modifications to the filtration system at my parents pond. I will be there tomorrow tearing out the old and bringing in the new. I will be sure to outline how the SBC QT tank has held up, and provide some very interesting details on my newest filter idea.

Just as a Happy Friday gift I will give you a hint....
A Gravity Fed Zakki Shower inside of an RDF.

Stay Tuned,
Zac

[icu2]

Can't wait to see! :pullup:

[jimfish98]

About time, lol

[catfish whiskers]

http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif

[Zac Penn]

Sorry for leaving you hanging but I wasn't able to get over there today. I did get a small filtration pad made out of Trex 1x6 for the new equipment to sit on, but I forgot to take pictures. I will get back at it on Monday and update then, hopefully with pictures.

[Zac Penn]

I didn't have much time to be a good photographer today but I was able to get the old system torn out, and the new system brought over to the house. I have to wait for the standing water to soak into the ground before i can level the ground and place the new deck. I had about 30 e-mails this morning that i had to address before i could swing by my parents house, so I didn't get nearly as much done as I wanted.

The old RDF drum was made with prototyping materials and the double sided tape worked okay until the very end. Then it failed pretty bad and allowed for the screen to separate from the drum. This meant nothing was getting trapped by the micron screen if the flow rate was very high. I had to nearly stop the water flow through the filter for the last few weeks (well 6 weeks haha) but luckily the QT only had two fish in it and was very seasoned. The lack of turnover rate meant the nitrogen from the fish and food had to be handled by algae as well as the Cermedia, so string algae kind of thrived during this time. That allowed a lot of algae to grow on the Cermedia but luckily it will just shake off. I will post some videos of me cleaning the cermedia tomorrow when i have more time, but for now just enjoy the crappy pics and be happy this isn't your backyard ;)

555606

You can see the white ring around the biological filter that showed what the normal water level was like in there. Due to the low flow rate the gravity fed return filter had a much lower water level than normal.
555607
555608


Out with the old...
555609
555610


After i had cleaned the cermedia I placed it into the new shower basket and danged it inside the pond. The aerated bottom drains create quite the surface current, so water is flowing through the media basket and keeping all the bacteria nice and happy. The media turned out looking as good as new. I just used a three bucket method of cleaning...
1st bucket had dirty media
2nd bucket had pond water and was used to shake out each individual piece
3rd bucket had clean pond water and held the cleaned Cermedia until I poured them into the media basket
The junk literally just shook right off of the media and no hose is needed.
555611

[Zac Penn]

Here is a short video showing how easy it was to clean off the dirty cermedia, and how gentle it is. Anyone with 1st hand experience with Cermedia can attest to the brittleness of the media. You cannot be aggressive when handling it because the walls of each pore are very thin. That makes it easy to chip off pieces of media while handling it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBZ3rgEIjp0

[Zac Penn]

I got the system up and running last night, and it has shown a few weaknesses in the QT tank design. The original filtration had an airlift connected directly to each 3" bottom drain, which pump fed the old RDF. This gravity flowed into the submerged bio-filter and then back tot he pond.
The new design has the two 3" bottom drain gravity feeding into the new RDF, then into the shower, and then getting sucked into the water pump and sent back to the pond. These bottom drains are no your normal bottom drains and were something I fabricated a long time ago out of a DWV 3" 90. I welded a 3/4" NPT standpipe into the center of the 90 for the diffuser disks to rest on. This stand pipe takes up precious space and adds flow restriction as well as the diffuser disks as well. Here is a top down shot of the fabricated drains...
555686

Another thing to think about is that TWO 3" pipes equals the same gravity flow capability as a single 4" pipe. So with my modified 3" pipes I have about 80% gravity flow capability as a single 4" pipe going into the RDF/Shower filter.

The water pump I had laying around the warehouse is a Sequence 6800 pump so it will suck out WAY more water than the 3" BD's can supply so I have to turn the flow way down. I am estimating about 3000 GPH of water flow currently on the QT pond with less than 1200 gallons of water. The shower has over 2 Cu Ft of cermedia inside it, so I am still WAY over filtered on this pond. I still have some tweaking to do on the design of the filter, as well as cosmetic stuff to finish around the pond. Maybe within the next five years a coat of paint will go on the pond walls....But then PearlHarborDay will assume i am trying to cover up cracks in the SBC coated walls hahahaha.

Here are some pictures of the filter and surrounding area...Please excuse the mess

The water pump send the water below the deck through a 3" manifold and distributed the water through three 2" swing check valves and then ball valves and then to the three underwater return lines. The check valves are needed because we do not want the shower reservoir to fill to the top with pond water after the pump is turned off. I have do A LOT of prototyping with different weir seals so that the water does not leak between the RDF and Shower when the pump stops. This filter is not like the UltraSieve floating weirs where the whole filter fills with water. The water stops flowing when the floating weir rises above the pond water level.
555687


Here is the overall side view of the filter and pond. Don't you love the wonderful rock work my dad performed along the bottom of the QT? hahaha They tore out a fire pit that was on their deck and replaced it with one of those all in one gas pits from lowes. The old retaining wall blocks had to go somewhere so this is where they ended up. It does however give my nieces a better vantage point to see the fish
555688


The dirty water enter the chamber on the right from the BD's, and then flows into the center of the RDF drum (60 microns SS screen), the clean water flows through the screen, and then over the floating weir into the shower portion of the filter. There is a float switch in the clean chamber of the RDF that senses how far down the floating weir has traveled. The further down it travels, the dirty the RDF screen has become and eventually the float switch will be triggered to start a drum cleaning. The drum is rotated by the same water turbine drive system that I designed 3 years ago, but the housing has been CNC cut now for precision alignment and more power. The turbine and spray bar are powered from city tap water and it requires at least 40 PSI at 3 gallons per minute to operate as designed. This kind of water flow is VERY easy to achieve with a garden hose and that is what is being used at the moment until I get it permanently plumbed in, along with the auto-refill system. It is currently running at 50 PSI on the garden hose setup, but I was seeing 55+ PSI at my warehouse when i was testing it there. This kind of pressure through the spray bars is very strong and should keep the screen quite clean.
555689
555691


The water from the spray bar and turbine drive system flow into the waste tray so only a little splashing of tap water gets into the pond water, so declorination will not be a problem as the filter runs. This means you do NOT have to install a carbon filter before the RDF, but it would be required if you wanted to run an auto-refill system on the pond. Yes even something I have designed is not immune to the spring algae draping over the waste tray problem. However due to the easy access to the inside of the drum removing of the draped algae is very easy by hand.
555692



The water then pours onto the shower portion of the filter and then gets sucked out by the water pump.
555690


Here is a picture of the drum cleaning
555693




Please keep in mind this is the prototype filter and modifications will be performed. If you have any questions feel free to ask them and if you have any design suggestions send them my way. One of the design features I have been working around is having all pipe on one side of the filter. This way the filter can be pushes against a wall or dropped into a small sump and you would only need access from the top and to one side of the filter. This may change over time.

[mplskoi]

Zac,
looks nice. I am wondering, will your system always be set up where it needs to be connected to a tap water supply? Or will you add a small secondary pump so that the spray bar can be cleaned using clean pond water?

[Zac Penn]

Zac,
looks nice. I am wondering, will your system always be set up where it needs to be connected to a tap water supply? Or will you add a small secondary pump so that the spray bar can be cleaned using clean pond water?

The electronics will be universal voltage with a high current rating so you can use anything you want for the cleaning pressure. All you have to do is provide at least 40 PSI at 3 GPM and you are good to go. The internal relay will tell either an automatic valve to open (allowing city water pressure to clean the drum) or turn on a high pressure jet pump to send clean pond water into the spray bar to clean the drum.

[kntry]

Zac, how did the dry stacking hold up?

I'm thinking about building a QT 7x10x4', maybe the 1st 2-3 courses in the ground, and dry stacking, rebar and concrete in every other cell. I'll be using a liner.

I'm undecided if dry stacking with hold up and was wondering how yours held up?

[ricshaw]

Zac, how did the dry stacking hold up?

I'm thinking about building a QT 7x10x4', maybe the 1st 2-3 courses in the ground, and dry stacking, rebar and concrete in every other cell. I'll be using a liner.

I'm undecided if dry stacking with hold up and was wondering how yours held up?

Why not do dry stacking with rebar in every other cell AND concrete in EVERY cell?

[kntry]

I could do that, it just seems like a lot of concrete.

I typed the wrong dimensions. Sorry. It should have been 4x7x4'

[Zac Penn]

Zac, how did the dry stacking hold up?

I'm thinking about building a QT 7x10x4', maybe the 1st 2-3 courses in the ground, and dry stacking, rebar and concrete in every other cell. I'll be using a liner.

I'm undecided if dry stacking with hold up and was wondering how yours held up?

There have been absolutely ZERO issues with the structure of the pond. That being said what you have described is not what I did. All of the cinderblocks (above ground) are hollow with no rebar and no concrete poured into them. The only thing holding this tank together is the SBC (surface bonding cement) skim coat on the inside and outside of the pond. Dry stacking and then filling the cells with concrete will hold up great. I built a 10' x 20' x 6' deep dry stacked cinderblock pond with vertical rebar in every other cell, horizontal rebar in every three courses inside of bond beam block, and then concrete poured and vibrated into every cell. Then the interior was stucco coated with Xypex Admix for the waterproofing. This also has worked out perfectly and I would suggest this as a waterproofing instead of a liner. Stucco coating is very easy and provides a nice wrinkle free finish.

[Zac Penn]

I decided to go over to the QT pond this afternoon and see how things were progressing. I still haven't finalized the a lid for the filter yet because I don't know if it is going to remain the same shape that it currently it. I have found a few improvements that can be made to the drum support on this model, as well as some space reconfiguring for the bottom section, so I am going to build a whole new filter and replace this one with the improved version. I will include the drum improvements to the filter that is being removed as well, so if anyone is interested in purchasing the DEMO filter, then please get in contact with me through e-mail so we can discuss details.

The water is absolutely crystal clean, the carpet algae on the walls and floor of the pond have gone from 3-4" long down to 1/2" long and hopefully will die off entirely as the Gravity Fed Zakki Shower gets back into full swing of things. The bacterial slime coating on the filter is lubricating all of the moving parts very nicely so I am very happy with how things are progressing.

The only thing I am not super happy about is the amount of water level rise/fall that happens inside the pond as the RDF screen gets dirty/cleaned. The way things work with this filter is that the entire bottom section of the filter 48" x 24" x 6" - 10" deep (30 to 50 gallons of water) is full of water and there is a float that adjusts the weight of the spillway that pours water onto the Zakki Shower portion of the filter. As the RDF screen gets dirty, it take more pressure to push the water through the screen (requires a larger water level difference) so the water level in the bottom section of the filter lowers and the water pump pushes that extra 20 gallons of water into the QT. Due to how small the pond is (only 1200 gallons) this extra 20 gallons of water raises the pond water level by 1". This fluctuation of the pond water level makes it difficult to incorporate the same float switch and auto-fill system that i used to have on the pond. I will come up with a better solution in the future, but for the time being the pond is just filled manually, or luckily it is the rainy season so Mother nature is keeping it topped off nicely. However that can cause issues with PH so I need to get a fix figured out soon.

The new design changes are going to cut the bottom water reservoir in half so there will be less of a water level impact on smaller ponds. Here are some pics from today...
Nice bacterial coating on the plastic
556251
Nice clear water
556252
Super clean Cermedia under the distribution manifold
556253

[trumpetdoug]

So Zac, will this (Zakki RDF Shower) be a product that you will sell?

Doug - out

[kntry]

Due to the issues I've had, I changed the QT up again.

The hole is dug on a hill now. QT will be 6x6x4', 2' in the ground, on a footer, dry stacked, rebar in every other cell and every other course horizontally.

I've done plaster before. I'm using a liner on this because I have carpal tunnel in both hands and it's going to kill me just to lay the blocks. I can't do skim coating at the same time.

Thanks, Zac.

[Zac Penn]

So Zac, will this (Zakki RDF Shower) be a product that you will sell?

Doug - out

Yes sir! I am constantly coming up with new ideas, and this one has been in the works for a few years now. Not only is it a combination filter, but they are also individual filters. I heard you might be interested in the Direct Suction RDF in the not so distant future. Lets continue this conversation in a different thread or via e-mail so we can keep this one on topic.

[Zac Penn]

Due to the issues I've had, I changed the QT up again.

The hole is dug on a hill now. QT will be 6x6x4', 2' in the ground, on a footer, dry stacked, rebar in every other cell and every other course horizontally.

I've done plaster before. I'm using a liner on this because I have carpal tunnel in both hands and it's going to kill me just to lay the blocks. I can't do skim coating at the same time.

Thanks, Zac.


Oh well then you definitely do not want to do stucco work. It is very tiresome and extremely stressful on the wrists and arms. You could probably hire a local mason to do the work for you at a lower cost than a rubber liner. Craigslist is you friend when it comes to down on their luck skilled tradesmen.

[Zac Penn]

email sent about the rdf.

I didn't receive it...
Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com

[Zac Penn]

lol I thought you ignored my last 2 emails. will send again. should be there. its under zakki sieve receipt in the subject line

That is crazy...I just looked and i still have nothing. What is your address? PM it to me so I can make sure I search for it. That is really weird.

[ALLKOI-DUP]

Mr. Zac,

It is my understanding that quick wall alone is recommended as a waterproof coating, per mfg.. in your opinion do you feel the xypex was really all that? Would you feel confident without it?

I noticed my Concrete set up kinda pasty, was not as workable, and took a lot longer to cure. Did you find the quikwall to change with the addition of xypex?

[jimfish98]

We will also need a post hurricane update on how well it holds up to storms.....

[icu2]

:bump: for Zac... just wondering how this held up over the years.

[Zac Penn]

Well unfortunately I did not see this before Steve's passing, but I wanted to update this thread a little bit.

The filtration system has gone through many changes over the years, from prototype to prototype, but it has been structurally unchanged since the last update. The pond has stood the test of time and is still as watertight as it was in the beginning.

[jimfish98]

Is that the mock up of mine as gravity fed then air lifted to the shower?

[Zac Penn]

Is that the mock up of mine as gravity fed then air lifted to the shower?

No I ran out of time to put your prototype filter on this pond. I just used a gutted and modified Solum as the gravity fed RDF, which flows into a submerged bio filter with 3.5 cu ft of Wave Point media. There is a Sequence 6800 pump that sucks out of the bio filter and sends the water back to the pond.

Those air lifts are recirculating the water inside the bio-filter. It sucks some water that has already been filtered and pumps it back up to the top of the filter for another pass through the media. It also helps to provide aeration for the bacteria inside the filter.

[Noahsnana]

Glad to see you posting again Zac