A before and after indoor koi "spa". [Archive]

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 05:32 AM

EDIT - See below link for a thread featuring another indoor koi spa by Karl:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101931

I built this indoor prototype koi tank in 2004. Since then I've built nine more. Each time there have been improvements in design and usability. So it was time to take my first one and work out a way to improve it.

This is what it looked like in 2004:

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 05:39 AM

My first indoor koi spa had one window. And it was a small one! So I wanted to increase the viewing area but yet keep the structure intact. I went with two windows 20" X 38". This gave me a viewing area of 15" X 34".

I also wanted to increase my filtration. So I added another 55gal trickle tower and increased the pump size to 1/4 hp. The result was about 1500gph per barrel.

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 05:47 AM

We like the new windows and I think the koi like them as well. They don't seem so crowded to look at us and see if we have food!

Who's lookin' at who!

andres58

10-11-2009, 07:50 AM

Thanks for posting pics.....great indoors facility.........your filtering must be spot on with such high density..........congrats:clap:

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 08:08 AM

Thanks for posting pics.....great indoors facility.........your filtering must be spot on with such high density..........congrats:clap:

Thanks! Yes, the filtration is fairly strong. The tank is 1250 gallons and the filters turn the water at a rate of 4500 gph. That and an oversize UV and frequent water changes does the trick. I grew up in the aquarium industry. High stocking, over-filtration and frequent water changes are the mainstays of that industry and certainly can be applied to the koi hobby.

sworley

10-11-2009, 09:51 AM

That's a great "spa"! Your fish are beautiful, too! What are the windows made of? Are they Lexan?

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 01:54 PM

That's a great "spa"! Your fish are beautiful, too! What are the windows made of? Are they Lexan?

Pretty much. 1/2" polycarbonate. Polished with Novus 1&2.

cindy

10-11-2009, 02:07 PM

constantly changing art.

MissMelissa

10-11-2009, 02:14 PM

Cool... Those windows probably really help with seeing any health problems they are having. You can see them so clearly while they get to remain in their habitat.

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:15 PM

constantly changing art.

Thanks!

It's like having two flat screens with the screen saver constantly changing. What we have noticed is that the koi are much more laid back when they have more "looking" room. No crowding to the single small window in an effort to see what is going on outside. I noticed that with the last several "spas". Larger windows and more of them. The last one I built has four windows. All larger than the ones I could install in this old spa.

It also makes it easy to observe for behavior problems, small nicks and possible bacterial ulcers. My wife has a keen eye so I just sit back and watch. The problem is the desire to feed them and feed them and feed them!

I think that they become much more friendly and acclimated to our activity outside the spa. My wife has a ginrin soragoi that is so friendly she can lift it out of the water and she doesn't even struggle. Her name is "zipper". No, we don't have names for all of them....................yet.

vipldy

10-11-2009, 02:17 PM

Looks good Karl:yes: Our fish are still in the pond till this coming week..One of smaller stock tanks sprung a leak:rolleyes:

gander

10-11-2009, 02:17 PM

Wow thats a lot of fish.

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:20 PM

Cool... Those windows probably really help with seeing any health problems they are having. You can see them so clearly while they get to remain in their habitat.

You assumed what I have found to be so true. That is why I decided to update my original prototype to something near what I construct today. They seem perfectly relaxed and so it does give us the opportunity to observe for as long as we want......and feed and feed and feed....:eek1:

The result is more water changes, more filter cleaning, but what the heck. It is nearly winter here. The weather forecast is for 2-4 inches of snow overnight into tomorrow!:no::no::no:

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:20 PM

Looks good Karl:yes: Our fish are still in the pond till this coming week..One of smaller stock tanks sprung a leak:rolleyes:

Gettemout! You have snow coming your way!:D::D::D:

vipldy

10-11-2009, 02:23 PM

Gettemout! You have snow coming your way!:D::D::D:

No we don't:no: There have been flurries but I have not seen them here in my hood:D: The fish are hanging a few ft down and kinda slow moving:rolleyes:

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:24 PM

Wow thats a lot of fish.

Naw. Only 40. I counted them when we brought them in. Actually we brought in 48 but 8 of them are b-flies. The b-flies have their own tank in the fishroom. I will be culling with some difficulty as I have four additions to the main herd which sooner or later must be added to the spa.:clap::clap:

Think about that. A total of 44 koi in 1250 gallons. And these aren't small koi.:D: That means a lot of water changes and some serious water quality monitoring.

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:25 PM

No we don't:no: There have been flurries but I have not seen them here in my hood:D: The fish are hanging a few ft down and kinda slow moving:rolleyes:

Maybe. But it is on the horizon!!!!:D:

vipldy

10-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Maybe. But it is on the horizon!!!!:D:

No doubt:D: I just went out and looked at the fish and they came up like we are hungry:rolleyes: Their water was 67 deg. the other day but feels a tad cold now:eek1::eek1:

KoiValley

10-11-2009, 02:44 PM

No doubt:D: I just went out and looked at the fish and they came up like we are hungry:rolleyes: Their water was 67 deg. the other day but feels a tad cold now:eek1::eek1:

I moved mine in last Thursday. The pond was 56*F so I had to pump the water into the spa to make things work. Fortunately I had laid out the piping and was able to do it in a little over an hour. The filter was cycled with Mike Hammocks' shipment of six fine 15 to 18" Ogons as well as a 21" Sanke and a 28" Tancho kohaku. Some great fish! Most were sold but I had to keep the Sanke as well as a couple Yamabuki Ogons.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

webted

10-12-2009, 04:12 PM

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:35 PM

What a timely post – I’m working on designs right now for an indoor tank… it looks to be my winter project.

A few questions:

1. Is the basic construction 2 X 6 “studs” w/ a lapped and lagged 2 X 6 waistband? It looks like you also have ½” plywood sistered in the waistband and along some of the stud bays?
2. ½” or ¾” plywood interior?
3. It looks like the polycarb is epoxied to the stud frame. How did you join the liner to the polycarbonate?
4. Does your ½ polycarb bulge at all?

Great pictures, and sharp construction.

I’d love to take advantage of any your design improvements… then maybe it’ll only take me 8 tanks to get where you’re at!

Best regards,

-t

I'll try to walk you through this, but it would be best to find my thread at the bottom of page two of this construction forum as well.

Think of this project in terms of "horizontal construction". Each rectangular beam is constructed on top of the other. The bottom beam is laid out and squared by measuring from corner to corner until equalized. Then the bottom 2X6s are tacked together using a finishing nailer and 2&1/2" nails. This is merely to hold them in position. The 3/4"plywood strips are then cut to create the lamination for the center bottom bracing. As you can see, the two bottom braces consist of a 2X6 crossmember topped with 3/4" plywood which is glued and laminated into the crossbeam.

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:38 PM

The next picture shown here indicates another layer of 2 X 6 set on top of the beam. It is glued and nailed with 3" ringshank framing nails(air powered). The two bottom braces do not laminate into the rectangular horizontal beam but merely butt up to it. The plywood part of the crossmember is the only part that is laminated into the structure. Every piece is glued and nailed with the same framing nails to provide a structure which can't possibly move.

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:43 PM

This shows the completed bottom rectangular beam and some preparations for the middle one to begin. In the background you'll see a set of shorter braces and a set of longer ones. These will be used to set the middle and upper laminated beams into postion.

Remember: All parts of the rectangular laminated beams must be overlapped, glued and nailed preferably with 3" ringshank nails upon final completion of the last layer of the bottom and middle beams. Air power is a must!

Lori Jo

10-12-2009, 06:48 PM

I Love It!! I would never leave the spa...sit there and watch the fish all day.

curlann

10-12-2009, 06:52 PM

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:55 PM

I Love It!! I would never leave the spa...sit there and watch the fish all day.

That does become somewhat of a problem for those who have them. They spend more time there than in their "living spaces"! Many have stereos, microwaves, easy chairs, and of course: popcorn!

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:57 PM

WOW AMAZING! I have a 1200 gallon intex pool with a Nexus Eazy Pod and a550 gph pump plus an airtech 40 with two airstones going. The water is a bit cloudy after only 5 days. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Have smaller koi and goldfish in here but after reading your post I must need a bigger pump???? I read somewhere not to put UV clarifier indoors. Are you using it to kill bacteria? Thanks!!!

Increase your filtration. Yes, always use a UV. Indoor tanks don't enjoy the value of sunlight UV. 1200 gallons indoors should be turned about three times an hour. More is better.:D:

Lori Jo

10-12-2009, 06:58 PM

That does become somewhat of a problem for those who have them. They spend more time there than in their "living spaces"! Many have stereos, microwaves, easy chairs, and of course: popcorn!

That even makes it more of a problem! :yahoo: A problem I wish I had right now. I have lots of questions but I just need to read back through the thread because I am sure they have been asked already. I just went head first for all the purty pictures and purty fishes!:punk1:

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 06:59 PM

This picture shows the completed middle rectangular laminated beam which has been glued and nailed before being set on the lower braces. The lamination is all important on the two lower horizontal beams as they will provide the rigidity which will prevent movement or bulging. Water pressure is "down and out". To some extent the upper bracing and final horizontal beam is merely to provide a larger tank without increasing pressure on the upper levels.

The vertical corner supports are merely to give proper measurements so that a 4' X 8' plywood liner will fit properly. The corner supports; both lower and upper, are designed to provide a "backer" so that the 3/4" plywood is supported properly to prevent any possibility of blowout. They are 6&1/4" X 5&1/2" inside diameter.

You'll notice that the vertical supports have been laid out for measurements and placement. And you'll notice that they have all been laminated with 3/4" plywood as well. Strength of the horizontal beams is most important but the vertical supports must also be reinforced in these indoor spas if the length is 10' or more and the width is 8' or more. I would consider an 8' X 12' X 4' (which does not include the final 2 X 6 cap) to be ideal.

curlann

10-12-2009, 07:03 PM

Increase your filtration. Yes, always use a UV. Indoor tanks don't enjoy the value of sunlight UV. 1200 gallons indoors should be turned about three times an hour. More is better.:D:

Thanks for the words of wisdom.....so much to learn :yes: I will get more filtration going.

vipldy

10-12-2009, 07:13 PM

Both threads have great info so I stuck them both:yes:

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 07:23 PM

This picture shows the final horizontal beam which has been constructed and set upon the upper four braces. It also indicates the spacing of the plywood laminate which allows for the crossmembers to be attached once the 2 X 6 part of the braces have been covered with 45mil rubber and then topped with 3/4"plywood. This level should be 48". The final layer of 2 X 6s will be screwed down using 3" deck screws so that in the event of a liner failure it can be removed. So the final height of the tank less the 2 X 2" covers is 49 & 1/2" tall.

The lower and upper braces are nailed in place using 3" ringshank nails, making sure good contact is made on the horizontal beams. Construction adhesive is not necessary.

vipldy

10-12-2009, 07:25 PM

Karl, it has been asked before but not answered, why no bottom drains in the spa's???

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 07:38 PM

Karl, it has been asked before but not answered, why no bottom drains in the spa's???

The "pickups" which feed the pump will guide the waste product to the filtration equipment which need to be bled off in one way or another depending upon the design for each one. My decision to use bottom pickup for the waste products comes from my experience that the koi redigest waste products over the course of the day and it just doesn't require a bottom drain. Of course I do serious water changes and the filters are flushed out frequently. I have watched this as it has progressed over the years and I would still not suggest a bottom drain in this application.

vipldy

10-12-2009, 07:42 PM

The "pickups" which feed the pump will guide the waste product to the filtration equipment which need to be bled off in one way or another depending upon the design for each one. My decision to use bottom pickup for the waste products comes from my experience that the koi redigest waste products over the course of the day and it just doesn't require a bottom drain. Of course I do serious water changes and the filters are flushed out frequently. I have watched this as it has progressed over the years and I would still not suggest a bottom drain in this application.

I would say that is an excellent answer Karl about the drains :yes: Thank you!

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 07:53 PM

I would say that is an excellent answer Karl about the drains :yes: Thank you!

There is a bit more to it. I come from the aquarium and tropical fish industry where vacuuming is quite common. What I have found is that although koi are a dirty fish, they have an uncommon ability to redigest the waste in a manner that allows the filtration to pickup the final remainder, which is surprisingly small. They just need time to do the job. It is important to feed a diet which is low in waste. I have found a combination of food which seems to works well for me and my clients.

When I consider the concentration of koi in these tanks it always amazes me how little is needed to keep the water perfectly clear and completely under control.

Having built and serviced ten of these tanks I wouldn't consider doing it any other way.

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 07:56 PM

And the finished product: A nice four window indoor koi spa. This one will be finished with birch cabinetry, and will provide years of enjoyment to their new owners.

vipldy

10-12-2009, 07:59 PM

Which will lead me to ask:D: which food do you feed the indoor spa residents..

KoiValley

10-12-2009, 08:19 PM

Which will lead me to ask:D: which food do you feed the indoor spa residents..

After many trials I have come to the conclusion that Backwater Gold, Max and Color in equal percentages is best for our collections. Less waste. More improvement in color and no problems in shiro development. I still am open to other trials and am working on one this month.

KoiValley

10-13-2009, 08:01 AM

In this picture all three horizontal beams are in place. You'll notice that the top beam has a 2X6 base, and 3/4" plywood glued and nailed. However you should be able to see the spacing for the two cross members which will be installed once the plywood is notched for the bottom cross members, cut to size, glued and nailed. Then the plywood is inspected for sharp edges, all nail holes filled with putty or glue and the corners filled with a heavy bead of construction adhesive. It is fairly important to get the inside smooth to prevent damage to the liner.

Monroe1950

10-13-2009, 08:51 AM

Karl can this "spa" be made in away that it can be taken apart for the summer when it's not in uses or maybe in the summer be moved outside to the back yard.

Thanks Paul

KoiValley

10-13-2009, 06:37 PM

Karl can this "spa" be made in away that it can be taken apart for the summer when it's not in uses or maybe in the summer be moved outside to the back yard.

Thanks Paul

I kinda doubt it.:no:

You'd have to remove the liner and styro under it. Then jack it up and put round posts under it and roll it on to a flatbed. Not an easy job.

UTKoi

11-17-2009, 03:46 PM

UTKoi

11-17-2009, 06:49 PM

You got any pic of how you did your TT in the 55gal drums?

KoiValley

01-06-2010, 06:21 PM

first off very nice spa....

what is the size of the spa you built in your gerage?

What did you use for bulkhead fittings and did you use a bottom drain?

did you use a drop in liner or fold it?

Can you use lexon for the window or is it too flemsy to use?

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I kind of forgot about the thread. Mine is 1250 gallons. I used farm spray equipment bulkheads for the filters as well as the drain. Nope no bottom drain. I set up the current in the tank to swirl waste to the filter pickup. It works very well.

I used a rubber liner. A drop in line will work but you really need to build the tank and then order the liner to fit precisely. I used one of Birdman's drop in liners on the last one I built. It worked fine.

Lexan 1/2" is perfect.

KoiValley

01-06-2010, 06:25 PM

You got any pic of how you did your TT in the 55gal drums?

Lost 'em in a computer crash. But they are simple. A coke case flipped over on the bottom. 20 stripping pads 20" in diameter to each barrel. A garbage can lid on top flipped upside down to the lip holds water and the lid is drilled with as many holes as you can stand to do in an hour. Then I use air filtration media which comes in large rolls and is cut up to give me some fines filtration. The water entering the top of the barrel is simply run through a single spray bar to distribute the water over the media.

I have to clean these filters twice a year. Otherwise they just seem to hum along.