Hints for Picking Tosai Gosanke

[Russell Peters]

It's always best if you can see the parent Koi. They should have very good "body", "skin ground" and then "Hi and sumi quality". The body line from the shoulder to the tail is most important. Volume, and bone structure, is important but especially a thick tail tube.

The skin should be a gentle white color that looks soft and thick. It should have depth and dimension. It should be like looking at silk, not cotton. This is a better quality than solid pure white.

[Russell Peters]

There are some ways to help determine whether a Tosai is male or female but none of them are 100%.

Color - It is often said that the Tosai with the brighter Hi are male and the softer, yellowish Hi are female. Sometimes is does prove wrong and you will find, whether it is male or female, the deeper red tends to be hard Beni that will not last as long.

Skin - The quality of the skin can be a dtermining factor as well. Soft skin can be an indicator that the Tosai is female but this "softness" can be difficult to determine.

Fins - On the whole the pectoral fins can be a very good indicator. males tend to have rather long, and wide fins compared to it's body. Some lines, like Matsunosuke, don't work well with these indicators though.

Body - Some Tosai will display, at an early stage, the features of larger female Koi. They tend to have more of a rounded belly but, for most, this doesn't become an indicator until they are 8" - 10" in size.

Bottom line, Tosai are a gamble when trying to determine sex.

[Russell Peters]

Beni Quality

It is very important, when you pick your Koi, that the beni have what is known as Nerikomi. Nerikomi is the depth, and eveness of the Beni. When you look at Beni that has Nerikomi it makes the Hiban plate look uniform and the scales, or scale mesh, tends to blend or look vague. If the Beni is thin the scales tend to stand out and it doesn't matter whether or not the Beni is light or dark. Look for Beni that blends the scales together and don't look at the tone of color. When you can do this you will find better Beni.

[Russell Peters]

Sashi

Sashi is the area at the leading edge of the Hiban plate. We are told to look for Sashi as a determing factor in quality Beni. Sashi is not important in young Koi and is not what determines the quality of Beni. Some will say that the uniformity of the sashi is what dtermines the quality of Beni but it isn't and Sashi that is uneven, or wider than one scale, is usually an indicator of higher quality Beni.


Kiwa

Kiwa is the edge at the back of the Hiban plate. In young Koi you should not be concerned if it is uneven or blurry. Kiwa is an indicator of the "finish" of a Koi. maruzome Kiwa, which is the Kiwa that forms to the shape of the scale, is found on high quality Beni. It will finish slowly and starts finishing from the bottom of the Hiban plate to the top and from the front of the Koi to the back. The longer it takes to finish, the better. Male Tosai Kohaku tend to show good Kiwa.

[Russell Peters]

Hi on Fins

Hi that is found on the dorsal fin will receed down to the body over time but avoid Tosai that has Hi going up the front bone of the dorsal fin. If the Hi is touching, or just on the front bone it will usually pull forward when the Hiban plate receeds forward but, if it is too far up it will not.
Hi on the pectoral fins will receed to the base of the fins.
Hi on the tail fin will usually never disappear so be careful with this.
Hi with strong pigment will appear evenly on the fins.

[Russell Peters]

Hi Patterns


This is a very subjective part of picking Koi. I think you should always go for what strikes your fancy, as long as you have made a good determination of the quality.
There are several "rules" that should help you a long the way though.
1. A Kohaku should have a white nose. there are always exceptions but remember, Kuchi Beni refers to beni on the lips of Koi, not their nose.
2. There should be Odome. This is a white area between the last Hiban plate and the tail. This is also a rule that I feel has an exception as well. High quality Beni will contract, and pull forward, as a Koi grows so, as long as the Beni is not in the tail, but to the tail, you should be OK and the Odome will appear as the Kohaku matures.
3. There should be a good balance of red and white. This becomes subjective as well as well all have our own ideas of what "balance" is. Furthermore, balance can be determined by what stage of development the Koi is in. For instance, if you purchase a 6" Tosai with a small, flowery pattern, it may look very nice until that Kohaku is 16". When it is 30" the pattern could end up looking very small. It works the other way as well. I like to pick Kohaku Tosai with "big fish" patterns because I am an optimist. I believe that Kohaku will get to 30" and then the pattern will suit it much better.

[Russell Peters]

Shiroji - Skin


The "whiteness" of the skin ground is usually described as snow white but pure white, or bright white, is not always the best quality skin. There needs to be a depth and luster to the skin, I look at how it "glows" to determine this quality. Bright, snow white skin with a cotton sheen is not a good quality skin. A fresh, cream white skin with a silky sheen is much more appealing.

[Russell Peters]

Tobi - Quick Growers

When picking any Tosai don't be fooled by size. Tobi are Koi that grow quickly and are lager than their sisters and brothers. Most quick growers tend to be males.

[Sp00ks]

Thanks Russ.

[Russell Peters]

Thanks Russ.

You're welcome, I will post more on Showa ans Sanke later.

[jtp79]

Great information :yes:

Thanks for your time Russ!!!!!!:cool3:

[Sp00ks]

You're welcome, I will post more on Showa ans Sanke later.

I will read more when I'm not at work getting interrupted constantly. Koi > work.

[rainblood]

This may be too general of a question :rolleyes:, but whats the price difference in tosai vs nisai and which do you recommend as far as getting the best bang for your buck?

Can you also give a breeder's perspective as far as releasing tosai for sale? I assume that they would never let a fish go that they think has an extremely bright future. And that they are seldom, if ever wrong.

[Russell Peters]

Great information :yes:

Thanks for your time Russ!!!!!!:cool3:

You're welcome Jeremy.

[Russell Peters]

This may be too general of a question :rolleyes:, but whats the price difference in tosai vs nisai and which do you recommend as far as getting the best bang for your buck?

Can you also give a breeder's perspective as far as releasing tosai for sale? I assume that they would never let a fish go that they think has an extremely bright future. And that they are seldom, if ever wrong.

There are many things that determine the answers to your questions. Are the Koi going to stay in the breeders facility? What's you intention with these Koi? What level of quality do you want?

A breeder that sells a high quality Tosai will do so for a price. If they think it will do really well, and you are willing to buy it, you'll pay for it ($$$$$$) but you would get a better deal than if you waited to buy it from the breeder when it is Nisai. If you buy it though, you are taking the risk, which is why you might get a slightly better price but if it doesn't turn out it's your loss. If the breeder holds on to it then he is taking the risk and, if it turns out as he expected, then the price will be much higher as a Nisai.
If you are talking a general to above average grade of Koi then I would just go for what you want as a Nisai. It's not that a Tosai won't turn out it's just that the risk goes way up, at this level, that the Tosai won't do as well.

A breeder, contrary to what most people say, will sell anything and everything he has, for a price, other than his Oyagoi (parent fish). I have asked many of them. They are in business to make money, not hold on to all of their Koi. I think the reason we don't see a lot of better Koi here in the US isn't because the Japanese Breeders won't sell them, it's because the US dealers aren't looking for them and buying them.

I would say breeders seldom make mistakes but sometimes they do. I have been on the good end of that one a few times.:D:

[rainblood]

:wtg:

[Russell Peters]

Showa Tosai, I think , are the most difficult to predict, but I also feel they bring the greatest reward. I think what makes Showa so difficult to pick, at Tosai, is that we all want what we see in pictures of finished Showa. The problem is that, if you buy a Showa Tosai that is like the pictures, you won't end up with a very pleasing mature Showa. As it grows it will change and nots in ways you would expect. In fact this is the case with any finished Tosai, they only go down from there.
Having said this I thought I would still offer some tips I have learned to help you develop the patience, and skills needed to enjoy Showa.

[Russell Peters]

First, with any Koi you pick, it should start with quality. The items listed for Kohaku Tosai skin and beni quality will apply here. I think the most important thing to remember about Showa is that it is a black based fish. When they are fry only the black ones are saved in the first cull. Therefore, just because a Showa doesn't have Sumi, in what would be considered the right areas as Tosai, doesn't mean that it won't appear later. Tosai are babies, in the big picture, and, especially with Showa, it will take years for all of their qualities to develop. This is why patience, and knowledge, is especially important with Showa Tosai.

[Russell Peters]

Motoguru - Black at the Base of the Pectoral Fins


There is a lot of information out there about Motoguru and most of it is highly innacurate, especially when it comes to picking young Showa. Remember, Showa are a black based fish and it takes time for Sumi to develop. In fact the longer it takes the better.

Motoguru is not a good point to use when selecting Tosai Showa. If you select Showa by using this as a determining factor you will pass over a lot of good Koi. Motoguru is one way of determinig the quality of Sumi but you should not use it in selecting Showa Tosai. Showa Tosai with clear pectoral fins will produce a Showa that will look good for many years. This goes with the idea that, the longer Sumi takes to develop, the better it will look. Tosai with Motoguru that is already developed tends to grow more Sumi and will not look as nice.
Good quality Showa can take 8 -10 years to develop and there is an indicator for Motoguru developing if it is not already there. If there is Sumi in the cheek plate it will develop, without a doubt.

There are other indicators for how Sumi will devlop on a Showa Tosai. I think the one that is easiest for most is what we see in "sunken Sumi". This is Sumi that lies just below the skin. The best areas of "sunken Sumi" are the areas that group together in larger plates. This does not mean Sumi, that you don't see, won't come up but, if you are looking for a sure thing make sure you stay away from "sunken Sumi" that are in small areas on the body. Again, this is a subjective thing, some may enjoy a Showa with less Sumi.

If there are areas where there is no Sumi on the body but you see it in the dorsal area it will grow and come down the body from that point.

If there is no Sumi on the face of a Showa but there is Sumi inside the mouth, Sumi will appear on the face.

[Russell Peters]

Sumi Quality


There are two basic types of Sumi, bluish and grayish Sumi. Of the two the blue based Sumi is the best and it is called Aozumi. It has a deep black color wit a bluish luster to it. The grayish Sumi does not have the same luster as Aozumi.

[Russell Peters]

Showa Pattern


What you here a lot is that there has to be a balance Kohaku pattern, 3 colors on the face and a balance of all 3 colors in each section of the body. This is where it makes no sense to me. A Showa is not a Kohaku so why would it need to have a Kohaku pattern? Showa are a 3 color fish and the balance really should come from a balance of all 3 colors. Don't get me wrong, there are many types of Showa and with that, a large variety of patterns and you should always go with what you prefer. I am posting my observations, and perceptions, of how I feel Showa should be viewed.

Here is a picture of the Grand Champion from the All Japan Koi Show in 2007. This is a good example of how the balance can come from all 3 colors as this Showa does not have a balanced Kohaku pattern.

[Russell Peters]

Take a look at the GC Showa without any Sumi. Would any of you have picked this Showa because of the Kohaku pattern? I know this is a terrible reproduction but it will give you an idea.

[Russell Peters]

Here are a couple of other Showa, that were at the All Japan Koi Show, and you can see they are quite different as well. They tend to fall more in line with some of the "rules of thumb" as well. The point I want to make is that you shouldn't limit your options with Showa. Imagine though, how difficult it would be, to predict these Showa at Tosai.

[Marilyn]

Russ, what was the size (approximately) of the two you just posted? I really love the one on the left.

[Russell Peters]

Russ, what was the size (approximately) of the two you just posted? I really love the one on the left.

The one on the left was app. 55cm, about 22", at the time, was bred by Toshio Sakai (Matsunosuke) and was owned by PSKoi.:d: The other was 70-75cm, about 29".

[Marilyn]

The one on the left was app. 55cm, about 22", at the time, was bred by Toshio Sakai (Matsunosuke) and was owned by PSKoi.:d: The other was 70-75cm, about 29".
Great, I'm glad I didn't know that one existed or ouch. :lol:

[premster]

The one on the left was app. 55cm, about 22", at the time, was bred by Toshio Sakai (Matsunosuke) and was owned by PSKoi.:d: The other was 70-75cm, about 29".



are you left right challenged bub :there:

[rainblood]

Here are a couple of other Showa, that were at the All Japan Koi Show, and you can see they are quite different as well. They tend to fall more in,ine with some of the "rules of thumb" as well. The point I want to make is that you shouldn't limit your options with Showa. I magine though, how difficult it would be, to predict these Showa at Tosai.

Great segue to Rain's Theory on Showa Tosai: Pick the *** ugliest :fmouth: Showa out of the group.

:humble:

[jtp79]

Russ,

Is there a difference in the shade of beni on a showa tosai compared to a kohaku. Of the few showa tosai I have looked thru,,,,I asked several questions of more experienced hobbyists and was told that the beni on the showas were not weak. But comparing the 2 (kohaku tosai to showa tosai) it seems the beni on the showa always looks duller or weaker. Is there anything to that? Or was I just looking at poor quality showa?

[Russell Peters]

are you left right challenged bub :there:

***

[premster]

***

its up and down for me "tiger"

[premster]

while beni is improtant , the strength/location of sumi is what makes the showa the most imposing of the gosanke . me thinks .


:humble:

[Marilyn]

its up and down for me "tiger"
So for those that are size challenged, the first koi pic is the one on the left. :D:

[Russell Peters]

Russ,

Is there a difference in the shade of beni on a showa tosai compared to a kohaku. Of the few showa tosai I have looked thru,,,,I asked several questions of more experienced hobbyists and was told that the beni on the showas were not weak. But comparing the 2 (kohaku tosai to showa tosai) it seems the beni on the showa always looks duller or weaker. Is there anything to that? Or was I just looking at poor quality showa?

This is not an easy question to answer because it sounds like you want to know if the Showa you were looking at had weak Beni. That I can't answer. It could be you were comparing different shades of Beni therefore you were not going apples to apples. The best Kohaku Beni is very light when they are Tosai. All varieties of Gosanke have different types of Beni. Sanke and Kohaku are more closely related than Showa but breeders have been crossing to change things up.

Does the Beni on this Showa look weak?

[Russell Peters]

its up and down for me "tiger"

OK, got it, the one I from INC should be the first one then.

[Russell Peters]

while beni is improtant , the strength/location of sumi is what makes the showa the most imposing of the gosanke . me thinks .


:humble:

I would tend to agree with this for the type of Showa I like.

[jtp79]

This is not an easy question to answer because it sounds like you want to know if the Showa you were looking at had weak Beni. That I can't answer. It could be you were comparing different shades of Beni therefore you were not going apples to apples. The best Kohaku Beni is very light when they are Tosai. All varieties of Gasoanke have different types of Beni. Sanke and Kohaku are more closely related than Showa but breeders have been crossing to change things up.

Does the Beni on this Showa look weak?

No, not at all. The koi I was comparing were probably 6 inches long. I have some pics of the showa I picked out or I will try to catch it and take one. The beni still looks the same and has not faded so maybe from the pic, you can tell me if it looks weak to you.

And you are correct on the different shade between the kohaku and the showa tosai. The beni was definitely different,,,,just not sure how to put it into words.

Thanks Russ

[Russell Peters]

No, not at all. The koi I was comparing were probably 6 inches long. I have some pics of the showa I picked out or I will try to catch it and take one. The beni still looks the same and has not faded so maybe from the pic, you can tell me if it looks weak to you.

And you are correct on the different shade between the kohaku and the showa tosai. The beni was definitely different,,,,just not sure how to put it into words.

Thanks Russ

Even though there is a difference between light Beni and weak Beni, lighter colored Beni does not always make it good quality Beni. I see many people confuse persimmon colored Beni with high quality Beni just because of it's color. Also, low quality does not necessarily mean weak in the sense the Beni will break down either. It does get rather confusing.

[Russell Peters]

Motoguru - Part Deux

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about Motoguru and what it's importance is in Showa. It should not be something that keeps you from buying a nice Showa if it isn't fully developed as it should develop with the Showa and ideally finish when the Showa does.
If you find a Showa that has a lot of Sumi in the pectoral fins or, even if the fins look like they are totally black, the outcome could still be good. the indicator for this is the leading ray of the pectoral fin. If the leading ray of the pectoral fin is white and the rest is all black, or mostly black, the Sumi will pull back in time and devleop nice Motoguru. Here are a couple of pictures of a Showa that shows this development.

[Russell Peters]

Sanke Sumi


Unlike Showa's "sunken Sumi" on Sanke it is very unpredictable. Not all of the "sunken Sumi" on Sanke will come up and be clear. One of the most important spots for Sumi on Sanke is the shoulder. Tsubo is "crtical spot" and there are 3 locations on Sanke that Tsubo Sumi is important. The shoulder, back and tail.
Good Sumi for sanke is called Urushi-zumi. It is different than Aozumi on Showa, although Atarashi Sumi on Matsunosuke Showa is very, very close, as it is a dense true black Sumi.

[Russell Peters]

Sanke Beni


Hi on Sanke should be about the same as that of Kohaku in all areas. In Kohaku Madoaki, a hole in the Beni, is undesirable as there is no hpe of it filling in. On a Sanke there is a possibility for a Madoaki to be acceptable. Sometimes you will find a Madoaki with "sunken Sumi" in it. This is still a gamble as there is no guarantee the Sumi will emerge but, if it did, it would add a nice detail.
Sanke should have Beni that starts on it face.

[Russell Peters]

Sanke Pattern

Sanke, like Showa, are a 3 color Koi but sanke should present themselves in a different manner than Showa. In a sense Sanke are more delicate, or graceful, in how they present themselves. This does not mean that they can not have bold, large Beni patterns. I think what is always most important is the placement of Sumi. Something to watch for in Sanke is Sumi in the fins. Sumi stripes in the pectoral fins, Tejima, is very striking and adds to the presentation of Sanke. A lot of Sumi in the tail fin, cuadal fin, is not good as it is an indicator that there will be a lot of stray Sumi spots, Jari Sumi, thus making the Sanke very messy and undesirable.
Take a look at the Sanke in this tub and you will see the Sumi in the tail and how much excess Sumi there is on the bodies.

[Marilyn]

Sanke Pattern

Sanke, like Showa, are a 3 color Koi but sanke should present themselves in a different manner than Showa. In a sense Sanke are more delicate, or graceful, in how they present themselves. This does not mean that they can not have bold, large Beni patterns. I think what is always most important is the placement of Sumi. Something to watch for in Sanke is Sumi in the fins. Sumi stripes in the pectoral fins, Tejima, is very striking and adds to the presentation of Sanke. A lot of Sumi in the tail fin, cuadal fin, is not good as it is an indicator that there will be a lot of stray Sumi spots, Jari Sumi, thus making the Sanke very messy and undesirable.
TYake a look at the Sanke in this tub and you will see the Sumi in the tail and how much excess Sumi there is on the bodies.
Can we use the E word for Sanke? Elegant... :cloud9: Another that comes to mind is refined.

That is an interesting tool to use for Sanke selection regarding the tail and messier sumi. :cool3: Very good info.

[rainblood]

What's with the bowl of crapagoi?

[Russell Peters]

What's with the bowl of crapagoi?

I needed an example to show you about excess Sumi. You are not going to find this in better quality Koi as those would be culled.

[rainblood]

I needed an example to show you about excess Sumi. You are not going to find this in better quality Koi as those would be culled.

At first, I thought that they were Prem's fish :heh:

[Russell Peters]

At first, I thought that they were Prem's fish :heh:

They could be.

[premster]

At first, I thought that they were Prem's fish :heh:
Way too better photographed to be mine :nono: