Changes - What Will Happen?

[Russell Peters]

One of the best ways to learn is by seeing as many Koi as you can and watching how they develop. I thought it might be fun to have a thread with nothing but "before and after" pics. Look at each picture and post any observations you may have, good or bad. Not all of the Koi I post will turn out in a good way so have at it. Talk about changes you think might happen with skin, color and conformation. Is the Beni strong or weak, are there issues with the body and is the skin quality good or bad? Try to leave pattern out of it for the time being.
The first one is a 9" Tosai Sanke.

[rainblood]

Its about time :imp:

My predictions :rolleyes: :
I think the beni will recede leaving only a spot on the tail and a smaller patch on the shoulder. Sumi will also appear on the first plate of beni.
Shoulders look puny, so I don't think it'll get very big.
No idea on skin.

[Dravin]

Here goes nothing...

Skin looks very nice
Pectoral fins may be a little smaller than I'd like
The beni looks good although not the best I've ever seen
I'm not fond of the pattern myself

I'm so bad at judging tosai this small so yeah!

[Russell Peters]

Here goes nothing...

Skin looks very nice
Pectoral fins may be a little smaller than I'd like
The beni looks good although not the best I've ever seen
I'm not fond of the pattern myself

I'm so bad at judging tosai this small so yeah!

Pattern doesn't matter, at this point, please leave it out of the equation for a while.:d:

[Dravin]

Pattern doesn't matter, at this point, please leave it out of the equation for a while.:d:

OK then I think it's nice :-) The quality all around looks nice to me. The beni on the tail may also pull up and create a nice odome as it gets older.

[rainblood]

How long are you going to wait before you tell me that I am right?

[Russell Peters]

How long are you going to wait before you tell me that I am right?

It could be an eternity bub.:there:

[Russell Peters]

Here it is after 10 weeks in the mud at 13". It was a slow grower.

[rainblood]

Here it is after 10 weeks in the mud at 13". It was a slow grower.
Maybe this will help.

Spare me the grief :hand: it was done in Paint

[cindy]

Ok you said on the shiro to start with the skin. The white on the back looks nice but not sure what to think about the head.

Do we start with the kohaku pattern first? If the black comes in on the head, I think we're looking at a nicely finished koi (but what the heck do I know)

[Dravin]

Ok you said on the shiro to start with the skin. The white on the back looks nice but not sure what to think about the head.

Do we start with the kohaku pattern first? If the black comes in on the head, I think we're looking at a nicely finished koi (but what the heck do I know)

It's a Sanke, I'm pretty sure you don't want black on the head :scratch:

[rainblood]

So is the beni finished?
It looks "thicker", but I don't see any more sashi and it looks like it is breaking down near the dorsal area.

[Dravin]

So with this new updated picture, I'm a little worried about what might happen to this koi. The Sashi looks like it's all but gone and I see a few scales toward the back and bridge of the first plate of beni breaking down. I'm jumping ship! Gimme my money back from the purchase! You sold me crap! :rofl2:

[Dravin]

jinx

[cindy]

It's a Sanke, I'm pretty sure you don't want black on the head :scratch: Why?

[Dravin]

Why?

Black on the head is not a designed trait on a sanke. It does work ok with some patterns overall, but in general you definitely wouldn't be hoping that your sanke got black on it's head. Breeders try to breed against it. It's sort of like having the entire head covered in sumi for a showa. The desired trait is to have an even mix of red, white, and black. But some showas with heavy sumi on their head will give them a more powerful presence.

[rainblood]

jinx

:llaff:

[Russell Peters]

Maybe this will help.

Spare me the grief :hand: it was done in Paint

So far you were entirley wrong, care to guess what happens next? I have another set of pics from the next years growth as well.

[Russell Peters]

Ok you said on the shiro to start with the skin. The white on the back looks nice but not sure what to think about the head.

Do we start with the kohaku pattern first? If the black comes in on the head, I think we're looking at a nicely finished koi (but what the heck do I know)

You should start with the quality of the skin on all Koi, it just happens that we started with Shiro. You always want to look at the skin on the shoulder area as it will tell you the most. On young Koi the skin on the head can stay thin for a while so you can't always judge what will happen by looking at the head. When the skin is thin on the head of a Koi you can see through it to what lies underneath. A lot of time the darker areas you see underneath the skin on the head is the skull and its contents. Pattern is still not important at this point. The idea is to learn to pick quality and know what will happen to it. With an understanding of these things, picking pattern becomes easier.

[Russell Peters]

So is the beni finished?
It looks "thicker", but I don't see any more sashi and it looks like it is breaking down near the dorsal area.

No, it's not finished. When Beni consolidates it comes down from the dorsal fin and forward. By forward I mean that it consolidates from the back of the Hiban plate to the front.

[Russell Peters]

So with this new updated picture, I'm a little worried about what might happen to this koi. The Sashi looks like it's all but gone and I see a few scales toward the back and bridge of the first plate of beni breaking down. I'm jumping ship! Gimme my money back from the purchase! You sold me crap! :rofl2:

:pffft:

[rainblood]

So far you were entirley wrong, care to guess what happens next? I have another set of pics from the next years growth as well.

Look closely at the Shiroji. Real close.
Kage netting will come up and it will become a Goromo Sanke

[Russell Peters]

Look closely at the Shiroji. Real close.
Kage netting will come up and it will become a Goromo Sanke

So, you know that some people might actually believe you and be confused. This is a "learning" thread you know. :bum:

[rainblood]

So, you know that some people might actually believe you and be confused. This is a "learning" thread you know. :bum:

Ok this is it

:humble2:

[Russell Peters]

BTW, a lot of the Koi I am going to post in this section are very inexpensive Koi. The idea is to be able to judge, at any level, the inherent qualities of a specific Koi. It usually very easy to pcik an outstanding Koi as all of the signs are undeniable. What about picking the best Koi from a group of average Koi? This is a challenge. None of the Koi, in this thread, are going to be amazing but they will present something to think about. Some will be surprising.

[rainblood]

Whats considered "inexpensive"?

[Russell Peters]

Here is the next picture of the Sanke before it went back into the mud. Do you see any changes? It grew to 15.5" before going back.

[Russell Peters]

Whats considered "inexpensive"?

Most of the Koi, including this one, are $100.00 or less. I will do more expensive Koi later.

[Russell Peters]

Ok this is it

:humble2:

Nice try.:d:

[cindy]

Side by side. Shimmy on the nose? Pecs fins are getting color

[rainblood]

Side by side. Shimmy on the nose? Pecs fins are getting color

Conformation looks like it got worse :scratch:
Along with the beni in the middle.

[Russell Peters]

Side by side. Shimmy on the nose? Pecs fins are getting color

Yes, it started to get Sumi on the nose. Is it still a Sanke?

[Russell Peters]

Conformation looks like it got worse :scratch:
Along with the beni in the middle.

Confromation did not change. You are looking at the fact that it fasted over the winter, lost weight, and is waiting to go into the mud to bulk up again. Did the Beni get worse? Is it weak Beni or is it just changing?

BTW, Koi will grow better, in the hot months, if they have fasted first. There are exeptions though as some Koi are just slow, but steady growers.

[jtp79]

Yes, it started to get Sumi on the nose. Is it still a Sanke?


:yes:

[jtp79]

Confromation did not change. You are looking at the fact that it fasted over the winter, lost weight, and is waiting to go into the mud to bulk up again. Did the Beni get worse? Is it weak Beni or is it just changing?

BTW, Koi will grow better, in the hot months, if they have fasted first. There are exeptions though as some Koi are just slow, but steady growers.



I believe that the beni is just changing. It has looked weak in that area from the beginning pictures, and looks no worse as it has aged and has maybe shown some improvement in that area.

I have to say,,,i am surprised by the turn out from the first pictures. I wasnt impressed with the tosai pic at all and no way would i have chosen the koi to buy. But my opinion is very different now. But now that I have said that,,,the next group of pics, it will probably fall apart, lol.

[Dravin]

Here's the side x side x side for everyone that wants it

416102

[Russell Peters]

Yes, it started to get Sumi on the nose. Is it still a Sanke?


:yes:

:thumb:

[Russell Peters]

I believe that the beni is just changing. It has looked weak in that area from the beginning pictures, and looks no worse as it has aged and has maybe shown some improvement in that area.

I have to say,,,i am surprised by the turn out from the first pictures. I wasnt impressed with the tosai pic at all and no way would i have chosen the koi to buy. But my opinion is very different now. But now that I have said that,,,the next group of pics, it will probably fall apart, lol.

No, here is the final picture before I sold it. Once the Sumi came in on the nose I felt it was best to let it go. I think the Beni would have thickened a bit more and the Sumi was still emerging so it was still finishing. I also believe that the small area of Beni at the dorsal fin, that may have "looked" weak wasn't. I think it would have continued to open up a bit and become part of the pattern. Many of the Koi I am going to post in this thread are not real high quality Koi. They are very good to above average Koi. Koi like these will improve for a while and then they just get bigger but not necessarily better. There is nothing wrong with that as it is still above the average for most Koi. Understanding the changes they go through will help better understand what you are picking.

[Russell Peters]

I have circled the area of Beni that I was referring to in the previous post. This is type of thing that sets most people off on saying it's weak Beni. As you can see in the progression, over two years, this area was always there and the Beni is certainly not weak.:nono:

BTW, you can still see Sashi and the Kiwa is still developing which shows that this Sanke was not yet finished.

[Russell Peters]

Here is an Atarshi Sumi Showa I got with almost no Beni. I was hoping that the beni was hard and that a summer in the mud would break it down and I would end up with a Shiro utsuri. The Showa went into the mud as an 8" Tosai.

[Russell Peters]

Usually the deeper red Beni is an indicator of "harder" Beni. This is beni that is not elastic so, as the Koi grows, it won't stretch and it tends to fall apart. This is not a hard fast rule though. Koi with this hard Beni can, and do, keep their Beni. The lifespan of the Beni is shorter though as it finishes sooner. If this type of beni does not break down it can look very nice for many years.

[Russell Peters]

Here is the same Showa after it's first summer in the mud. It lost a little Beni and caqme out at 14". What I did notice about it was the quality of the skin and the bone structure was impressive. Still, it didn't have much of a Showa pattern so, I thought, study Koi.:yahoo:

[Russell Peters]

It stayed in the tanks at the store for the next 6 months and then went back to mud as a 15" Nisai.

[Russell Peters]

After the mud spa it came out at 18". it lost a little more Beni, still not enough but then I thought it would be fun if the Beni on the body went away and the beni on the head stayed.;)
Every thing was better on this Showa. The body, the skin, the Beni and the Sumi. The Sumi glowed a deep lacquer black.
One day someone came into the store, saw it and said, "I have to have that fish". So, being a dealer, I sold it:rolleyes: and my study Koi was no more. I was quite pleased with the changes though and it was a good learning experience.
The conformation on this Koi is very nice.

[Russell Peters]

Here is an example of very hard Beni that did break down in the mud. The nice thing about the mud is that it can bring out the best, or the worst, sooner. If this Showa had not gone in the mud it may have taken years for the Beni to fade.

[Dravin]

that's crazy. That happened in 1 year in the mud pond?

[Russell Peters]

that's crazy. That happened in 1 year in the mud pond?

No, 12 weeks in a mud pond.

[KatieVL]

I would not have thought it was the same fish. That is totally amazing.

[Dravin]

I feel like I'm getting dumber because there are no updates!

[Marilyn]

No, 12 weeks in a mud pond.

This quote from Super Kindai stays with me when I consider mud pond fish.


... a mud pond is not a magic pond but it pull out both good and bad untold things that a koi carry individually and genetically.

Thanks Russ for sharing the good and the bad with us. :yes:

[KatieVL]

More lessons please :gthread::pullup:

[Russell Peters]

Beni does not have to be hard Beni to fail. In fact, as I said before, hard Beni doesn't always fall apart. It can last for years and look very nice but it's lifespan is usually not as long and its look isn't conisdered as beautiful as the softer, persimmon colored Beni. Soft Beni is not a guarantee either. No matter what the color of the Beni it must have Nerikomi, an evenness throughout the entire Hiban plate.
Take a look at this Showa and its Hiban plate. See how it is uneven and has thinner areas where the Beni seems to be breaking up. Now, if the Beni was consolidating you might find these thinner areas at the back of the Hiban plate as elastic Beni moves toward the front of the Koi. If this were the case then the Beni may not be weak. Here you find thin spots all over the Hiban plate. This is an exagerated example and you could have a Hiban plate with one or two small areas of the same indicators and the same failure can, and will occur.

[Russell Peters]

Here is the same Showa after 12 weaks in the mud. The failure is as expected.

[Russell Peters]

Can you guess what may happen with the Beni on this Showa?

[rainblood]

Here is the same Showa after 12 weaks in the mud. The failure is as expected.

Now, did someone walk into your shop and demand to have this one as well? :gack:

[rainblood]

Can you guess what may happen with the Beni on this Showa?

Ugh, it looks pretty ****** to me.
I have no idea whats going on with the nose.
Beni looks uneven throughout the plate and NOT just the back of the plate.

I'd say that the beni will fail.

[Dravin]

It looks to me as the beni will fade on the front of the head. Some of the beni will disappear on the first plate but that extension off the back of the first plate looks like it may break away. The sumi may cover the weak beni where it fades across the neck because even though the beni looks weak in that area, sumi is also coming up. I don't know what kind of pictures you have, but if you just have one over the next 6 months and it goes into a mud pond, most of the sumi will fade away as it grows and the fish will look terrible until the sumi comes back.

[Russell Peters]

Now, did someone walk into your shop and demand to have this one as well? :gack:

No, but I have a customer, with a 60,000 gallon pond I built, that takes all of our "special needs" Koi.:D:

[Russell Peters]

It looks to me as the beni will fade on the front of the head. Some of the beni will disappear on the first plate but that extension off the back of the first plate looks like it may break away. The sumi may cover the weak beni where it fades across the neck because even though the beni looks weak in that area, sumi is also coming up. I don't know what kind of pictures you have, but if you just have one over the next 6 months and it goes into a mud pond, most of the sumi will fade away as it grows and the fish will look terrible until the sumi comes back.

I don't know if this will help but this was a 9" Tosai whan I took this picture and it was the day it went into the mud. 5/30/2010.

[Russell Peters]

Ugh, it looks pretty ****** to me.
I have no idea whats going on with the nose.
Beni looks uneven throughout the plate and NOT just the back of the plate.

I'd say that the beni will fail.

The beni on the Showa wasn't weak at all. This was a "trick" question as, sometimes, there are conditions that affect what the beni looks like and it can give you a false impression of what is going on. One of the biggest factors is the time of season. Weather, hot or cold weather, can change what a Koi looks like, very dramtically, in a short period of time. All of the areas that look weak are where the Sumi receded. When Sumi grows, and blocks out Beni, the Beni doesn't get to see the sun and will appear faded where the Sumi was. Take a look at the after picture.

[Russell Peters]

Here are side by side pics.

[Russell Peters]

Take a look at the beni on this Kohaku and tell me what you think.

[Dravin]

Umm... there is no sumi on a kohaku to block the beni, but where the beni looks weak is on the top of the shoulders and head where the koi grows the most. The 2nd and 3rd plate look very strong so maybe if it goes through winter it will start to fill back in?

[rainblood]

Take a look at the beni on this Kohaku and tell me what you think.

Well, I wouldn't want to ruin my 0% batting avg....

Beni looks uniform except for the first plate. First plate looks weak in the back & middle. Which may be because it is consolidating or sumptin.
I see some sashi, so it isn't finished yet.

So unless this is another trick question :club:, I think the first plate will fill in and it will end up as a very nice fish.

[Russell Peters]

Umm... there is no sumi on a kohaku to block the beni, but where the beni looks weak is on the top of the shoulders and head where the koi grows the most. The 2nd and 3rd plate look very strong so maybe if it goes through winter it will start to fill back in?

This was after winter and just before it went into the mud at the end of May 2010. It had a lot of issues over the winter and was very ill. This is one of the reasons the Beni started to break down.

[Russell Peters]

Well, I wouldn't want to ruin my 0% batting avg....

Beni looks uniform except for the first plate. First plate looks weak in the back & middle. Which may be because it is consolidating or sumptin.
I see some sashi, so it isn't finished yet.

So unless this is another trick question :club:, I think the first plate will fill in and it will end up as a very nice fish.

When Beni is consolidating you really only want it to do it at the back of the Hiban plate. If it does it in the middle you will end up with a Mado(window). On a Kohaku that wouldmn't be a good thing.

[Russell Peters]

Umm... there is no sumi on a kohaku to block the beni, but where the beni looks weak is on the top of the shoulders and head where the koi grows the most. The 2nd and 3rd plate look very strong so maybe if it goes through winter it will start to fill back in?


Well, I wouldn't want to ruin my 0% batting avg....

Beni looks uniform except for the first plate. First plate looks weak in the back & middle. Which may be because it is consolidating or sumptin.
I see some sashi, so it isn't finished yet.

So unless this is another trick question :club:, I think the first plate will fill in and it will end up as a very nice fish.

This is a trick question but it was designed to get you to think about the big picture. Koi can have issues and over come them so judging them by fulling understanding the circumstances is really important. You could pass up on an exceptional Koi without this information.
here is the Kohaku after it came out of the mud in october 2010.

[Russell Peters]

Here she is before going into the mud this year and a picture of her in the mud. Her white is stunning but my picture is over exposed.

[rainblood]

Hey, I got one right :yahoo:

[Russell Peters]

Hey, I got one right :yahoo:

Hands Mr. rainblood a cranberry raisin cookie. :there:

[KatieVL]

What will happen to the area between the 1st and 2nd step. Will that recede and make a clear demarcation between the steps. How can you tell that the beni is going to remain blurred and not become crisp?

[Russell Peters]

What will happen to the area between the 1st and 2nd step. Will that recede and make a clear demarcation between the steps. How can you tell that the beni is going to remain blurred and not become crisp?

Yes, high quality Beni forms Marazome Kiwa, following the edge of the scale, and to do this it must pull forward.

[Russell Peters]

What will happen to the area between the 1st and 2nd step. Will that recede and make a clear demarcation between the steps. How can you tell that the beni is going to remain blurred and not become crisp?


I am not sure I know what you are asking me.

[TODDER]

The most important thing I learned from this thread is...........Never, ever, ever go with Rain to a dealer and have him help me pick out a koi.:D:

[Russell Peters]

Here is an interesting Showa I put in the mud as a 9" Tosai. People talk a lot about what the color of the skin on a Koi's head should be. Most will insist that it should be white as yellow, or an off color, is an indication of it being a male or a lesser quality Koi. Another thing I noticed about this Koi was the color of the Shiroji on the shoulder. It has Sumi underneath but the sheen is more aparent here and it looks to be different that the Shiroji on the back part of the Koi.

One of the reasons I put some of the Koi I do into the mud is to have a visual record of what happens to a Koi with certain indicators. It is a valuable learning tool.

[Russell Peters]

Here is the Showa after it came out of the mud. there were some very nice changes with the body and the skin. At this point, even though it produced no milt, my guess was that it was male.

[Russell Peters]

Somehow this Showa stayed in the store all year and wasn't sold.;) Here it is, on vacation, in the mud. At this point it looks to be female. It has become an interesting study Koi.

[rainblood]

I guess it isn't becoming an SU....

[Russell Peters]

I guess it isn't becoming an SU....

No, the remaining Beni seems very strong at this point. Nice Kindai in the making, I think.

[TODDER]

Somehow this Showa stayed in the store all year and wasn't sold.;) Here it is, on vacation, in the mud. At this point it looks to be female. It has become an interesting study Koi.

I cant believe M hasnt picked this one up for her study group.:D:

[Russell Peters]

I have been going through my files to find some pictures to show progress pictures of a Tosai Kohaku I picked for a judging event and then what happened when it went into the mud a year later. The first pictures were taken in July of 2008, which is before I had a really good SLR, so they are over exposed. I had just gotten a shipment in from Toshio Sakai and was looking for a nice Kohaku in the tub. I circled the one I chose and have an individual picture of it.

[Russell Peters]

The Kohaku went to the PNKCA, in 2008, where Mr. Sakai was giving a lecture. The Kohaku was purchased and it came back to our store to wait to go into the mud. Here it is in June of 2009 just before going into the mud. It grew 5 inches while living at the store for a year. Kari gave me a much better camera as a gift.:thumb:

[Russell Peters]

The important thing to look for when picking Tosai Kohaku is Beni that is even (Nerikomi) through out the Hiban plate. Kohaku that are best for the future will have a soft persimmon colored Beni and, even in the over exposed pictures, you can see that in this Kohaku. The skin has nice luster and is bright white. It also had a very long body and a good sized head.

[rainblood]

Are you better at picking out future Kohaku or Showa? I figure Kohaku would be easier.

[Dravin]

not enough fish porn! what does it look like now?!?!?!?!

[Russell Peters]

Here is what it looked like after it came out of the mud 12 weeks later.

[Russell Peters]

Are you better at picking out future Kohaku or Showa? I figure Kohaku would be easier.

I am not sure one is easier than the other. They are different and both have unique challenges.

[rainblood]

Do you have any progress pics of the Goromo in the first pic?

[Russell Peters]

Do you have any progress pics of the Goromo in the first pic?

:no: