View Full Version : Russell, would you mind talking about picking out a young Shiro Utusiri
cindy
08-18-2011, 09:55 AM
How do you know what to look for since it takes a while to develop?
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 04:38 PM
How do you know what to look for since it takes a while to develop?
Yes, but I am going to make it a teach and learn thread. Later on I will post pictures of some 6" Tosai Shiro Utsuri and will ask some questions. Please respond no matter what you think of your ability.
cindy
08-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Thank you
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 06:58 PM
Rate these Shiro from 1 to 5. Do not base your judgements on pattern or conformation.:D:
stephen
08-18-2011, 07:07 PM
30
27
1
29
28
andres58
08-18-2011, 07:13 PM
29
30
27
1
28, gots some sumi on head.....
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 07:15 PM
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28, gots some sumi on head.....
You mean Beni but that's judging by pattern. Please try to avoid that.
Also, many Tosai Shiro do have some secondary Hi. If the breeder keeps them it is because the Beni is weak and it will go away or be absorbed by Sumi later on.
jtp79
08-18-2011, 07:33 PM
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27
I tried to look at the skin quality which is hard to do from a pic,,,,and it may be wrong to even look for that at this age. And I also let the head "clean" weigh into my decision. Also the yellowness of the head I moved down the list. Probably have them all azz backwards. lol
rosekoi
08-18-2011, 07:36 PM
We don't know if they are male or female yet. Try using quality as a guidline.:yes: Everything I discuss will start with quality first.
In that case
28
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29
McKTX
08-18-2011, 07:41 PM
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1
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 07:53 PM
I do realize that it is very diffcult to judge through pictures and that we may all be seeing these a little but differently. When I reveal the order I will try to find something about that Koi that can help point out why it is in the position it is. Plus, I am going to throw a wrench into the mix once people have had a chance to look at these.:D:
jtp79
08-18-2011, 07:55 PM
I do realize that it is very diffcult to judge through pictures and that we may all be seeing these a little but differently. When I reveal the order I will try to find something about that Koi that can help point out why it is in the position it is. Plus, I am going to throw a wrench into the mix once people have had a chance to look at these.:D:
Is it ok for us to question each other as to why we ranked a certain koi where we did? Or would this take the thread off track? It could very easily is why I am asking before doing it.
rainblood
08-18-2011, 08:01 PM
29
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1
Marilyn
08-18-2011, 08:09 PM
28
1
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29
cooper0038
08-18-2011, 08:17 PM
28
1
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27
30
Sp00ks
08-18-2011, 08:18 PM
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1
OMG I side with Rain, what is the world coming to. However, I'm not allowed to pick on Rain or Russ anymore. "Lord, I Apologize....."
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 08:53 PM
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I tried to look at the skin quality which is hard to do from a pic,,,,and it may be wrong to even look for that at this age. And I also let the head "clean" weigh into my decision. Also the yellowness of the head I moved down the list. Probably have them all azz backwards. lol
Skin quality is the key here and you can see it at any age if you know what to look for.
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Is it ok for us to question each other as to why we ranked a certain koi where we did? Or would this take the thread off track? It could very easily is why I am asking before doing it.
Please ask all the questions you want, this is what I am after. The more you ask the more you will learn. Don't second guess by the decision of others either. try to be firm on what you think, wrong or right it is the only way to build confidence.
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 08:56 PM
29
28
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1
OMG I side with Rain, what is the world coming to. However, I'm not allowed to pick on Rain or Russ anymore. "Lord, I Apologize....."
Really, how come? I enjoy it and Rain needs it.
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 08:58 PM
I will add that 3 of these are so closely ranked that it is difficult to tell from the pictures. I will try, the best I can, to point out why they are different.
GloriaL
08-18-2011, 09:03 PM
Ok I will ask one. I have read/heard that one of the qualities to look for in skin is a certain sheen to the skin, not metallic but a mark of quality skin. Do these pictures give and accurate representation of the skin sheen of each of the koi or do we need to see a different picture for some?
Russell Peters
08-18-2011, 09:19 PM
Ok I will ask one. I have read/heard that one of the qualities to look for in skin is a certain sheen to the skin, not metallic but a mark of quality skin. Do these pictures give and accurate representation of the skin sheen of each of the koi or do we need to see a different picture for some?
You got it, think of silk as opposed to cotton and that should help with what you are looking for. These are the only pictures I am going to post but the real problem is that each computer screen may show them differently so I am not going to be able to tell if you see what I see so I am going to try to be as descriptive as possible when the time comes. It's the best we can do. I think as these threads develop it may become less of a handicap. From what I see I think they are accurate.
cindy
08-18-2011, 09:29 PM
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1
I like 29 because the pattern looks like it'll be nice
rainblood
08-18-2011, 09:33 PM
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1
OMG I side with Rain, what is the world coming to. However, I'm not allowed to pick on Rain or Russ anymore. "Lord, I Apologize....."
:doh: Now I know I am wrong
rainblood
08-18-2011, 09:34 PM
[/COLOR]
Really, how come? I enjoy it and Rain needs it.
:pffft: I called the Sanke.
Because I am an expert like that homegirl
moodymike
08-18-2011, 09:48 PM
27
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1
29
28
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 01:04 PM
29
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1
I like 29 because the pattern looks like it'll be nice
What I want you all to do is to focus on skin quality for the time being, pattern can help but pattern is not what determines the true quality in a Koi.
Marilyn
08-19-2011, 01:10 PM
You got it, think of silk as opposed to cotton and that should help with what you are looking for. These are the only pictures I am going to post but the real problem is that each computer screen may show them differently so I am not going to be able to tell if you see what I see so I am going to try to be as descriptive as possible when the time comes. It's the best we can do. I think as these threads develop it may become less of a handicap. From what I see I think they are accurate.
Very true, I kind of placed some of them randomly because it's hard to differentiate the skin quality on them.
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Very true, I kind of placed some of them randomly because it's hard to differentiate the skin quality on them.
:there: planning ahead for the results?
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 01:32 PM
I think that if I can find a way to show why the Koi rank the way that they do, and you all can pick up on it in your computer screens, then this will eventually become easier. We'll have to wait and see.
Marilyn
08-19-2011, 01:43 PM
:there: planning ahead for the results?
Well, of course. :D: Though I do know the ones I'd consider adding to my pond be they right or wrong selections. :bum:
nebriowa
08-19-2011, 03:44 PM
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....so EXCITED! I live for threads like this!
Sp00ks
08-19-2011, 03:57 PM
[/COLOR]
Really, how come? I enjoy it and Rain needs it.
That's what I thought. You guys have a guardian it seems :)
rainblood
08-19-2011, 04:09 PM
That's what I thought. You guys have a guardian it seems :)
:thinking:
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 04:16 PM
Well, of course. :D: Though I do know the ones I'd consider adding to my pond be they right or wrong selections. :bum:
There doesn't have to be a right or wrong. As long as you are happy, the price is right and know what you are getting
Spirits
08-19-2011, 07:36 PM
29
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1
30
koiman1950
08-19-2011, 08:25 PM
Okay, I'll jump in and say:
1
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27
28
At least based on what my monitor shows me. I agree, there are three that are very close in quality.
Mike
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 09:33 PM
This is a really tough one but I think doing tests like these are important. Sometimes the subtle things are what makes the difference between a less expensive and a more expensive Koi. The quality of the skin is the most import aspect of picking any Koi. The quality of the skin is what determines the quality of the colors and how they show. All high quality skin has sheen but don't confuse this with Hikari as it is not metallic in nature. It should glow and it really is like comparing cotton to silk. Cotton has a dull sheen to it, it is very flat, and silk has a brighter, more glowing sheen. I know it is very hard to see it in these pictures but another thing that helps is to look at the depth of the skin. Is is thick or is it thin?
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 09:35 PM
It is this thick or thin aspect that makes the difference between the top 3 Shiro in this thread. The order is;
27
30
29
1
28
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 09:49 PM
If you take a look at 27, 30 and 29 you'll notice something on the noses of each of these Koi. There is a little bit of a glow and this is indictative of better quality skin as it is what gives the Koi it's sheen. It is guanine. You can see it on 28 as well but, at this point, 28 has a yellow cast on it's skin which may or may not go away. 27 and 30 are very close and I would call it a toss up so, if you reversed the two I would say you're on the money. 1, in a sense, is a close second to the first three so the fact that it is ranked fourth does not make it a bad Shiro at all.
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 09:52 PM
Having said all of that, it is time for the wrench. How would you rate this Shiro compared to the first group?
andres58
08-19-2011, 09:57 PM
not sure. Skin is similar but not as silky as 27,29,30.
Subconsciously I keep defaulting to conformation. The head looks funny.
Russell Peters
08-19-2011, 10:01 PM
not sure. Skin is similar but not as silky as 27,29,30.
Subconsciously I keep defaulting to conformation. The head looks funny.
:no: Head is fine.:D:
andres58
08-19-2011, 10:06 PM
All I know is I know nothing therefore I exist.....
Sumi developing early?
rainblood
08-19-2011, 10:08 PM
Having said all of that, it is time for the wrench. How would you rate this Shiro compared to the first group?
It absolutely blows the others out of the water :yes:
andres58
08-19-2011, 10:12 PM
It absolutely blows the others out of the water :yes:
well that sure helps......
rainblood
08-19-2011, 10:16 PM
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1
It is this thick or thin aspect that makes the difference between the top 3 Shiro in this thread. The order is;
27
30
29
1
28
I got every single placement wrong :humble:
Now that takes skill.
Marilyn
08-20-2011, 02:27 AM
So did I. :D: In fact I almost nailed reverse order. :lol:
BarbJ
08-20-2011, 03:41 AM
Yeah, I'm late to that game. I tried to skip all the guesses so I wouldn't be influenced, but when I got to Russell's post; well, let's just say my outburst was "hit!" except with a "s" in front!
Mine;
1
28
29
27
30
Pretty much exactly opposite, except for #3. K, so now I gotta go back to see what I didn't see.
powerman
08-20-2011, 10:18 AM
I might be wrong...but this koi, 26,even though it has the guanine flecks in the shoulder, doesn't look like it has the luster of the other koi....maybe it is hidden but where the sumi is closest to the surface in the face it is dull looking...
Oh and I was working overtime and didn't get to post my ranking on the other koi before it was revealed but I wrote my order down and then continued on the thread to the answers and I did pretty well....got the top three and reversed the last two... I had 27 30 29 28 1..........
but this last one perplexes me...originally I put it ahead of the others but i went back and looked several times...wish i could see them in a bowl ....
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 01:03 PM
It absolutely blows the others out of the water :yes:
Yes, but since you are guessing you really don't win anything.:bum: I will admit, and that is why I am calling it the wrench, the picture doesn't really show the quality as well. The skin is softer(hard thing to describe) and it is very subtle but, the way I learned all of this stuff is through exposure. I get to see them in person, which really helps, but my hope is that, through a lot of pictures like these, you'll be able to get some sense of it. It will take some time and I have 1,000's of pictures.
The last Shiro is one that won't really start showing it's true quality for a while. I have a couple of pictures of it when Mr. Sakai picked it out and I'll post those as well. The problem is that they are underexposed slightly so it may not show a lot.
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 01:04 PM
I might be wrong...but this koi, 26,even though it has the guanine flecks in the shoulder, doesn't look like it has the luster of the other koi....maybe it is hidden but where the sumi is closest to the surface in the face it is dull looking...
Oh and I was working overtime and didn't get to post my ranking on the other koi before it was revealed but I wrote my order down and then continued on the thread to the answers and I did pretty well....got the top three and reversed the last two... I had 27 30 29 28 1..........
but this last one perplexes me...originally I put it ahead of the others but i went back and looked several times...wish i could see them in a bowl ....
By last one do you mean #1?
P.S. Dan you do have a great eye and your fish keeping skills are great. It is something I have noticed for a while.:D:
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 01:07 PM
well that sure helps......
He doesn't always help much but he is our little helper.:luv:
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Later on I will post some older Shiro to show the type of skin you get from picking Tosai like these. In fact, I think some of these Tosai that I posted will be coming out of the mud in October. I still need to update and catalogue them and when, and if:rolleyes:, they come out I'll post updated pictures.
jtp79
08-20-2011, 08:16 PM
1
30
29
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I tried to look at the skin quality which is hard to do from a pic,,,,and it may be wrong to even look for that at this age. And I also let the head "clean" weigh into my decision. Also the yellowness of the head I moved down the list. Probably have them all azz backwards. lol
Okay, I'll jump in and say:
1
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29
27
28
At least based on what my monitor shows me. I agree, there are three that are very close in quality.
Mike
It is this thick or thin aspect that makes the difference between the top 3 Shiro in this thread. The order is;
27
30
29
1
28
:scratch: Back to the drawing board for me. I got kind of happy when I saw Mike's post and then extremely :fmouth: when I saw Russ's reply.
Russ,,,,does the yellowness of the head have nothing to do with shiro at this age?
KatieVL
08-20-2011, 08:42 PM
Here is what I see- mine you I know Absolutely Nothing....and don't even know if what I notice matters
1 The sumi is dark and on top of the skin...looks more finished than the others. Small spot of hi at L eye.
27 Head is yellower, the sumi is deeper under the skin
28 Head is more yellow, sumi is at vary depths, Hi spot on head
29 Head is yellow, very deep sumi with some starting to surface, might be a touch of hi on head, hard to tell
30 Intermediate depth of sumi, head yellowish with some reflectiveness.
This is how I would have placed them
30
27
29
28
1
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 08:54 PM
:scratch: Back to the drawing board for me. I got kind of happy when I saw Mike's post and then extremely :fmouth: when I saw Russ's reply.
Russ,,,,does the yellowness of the head have nothing to do with shiro at this age?
No, it doesn't, but the only one that has any real yellow is #28.
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 08:58 PM
Here is what I see- mine you I know Absolutely Nothing....and don't even know if what I notice matters
1 The sumi is dark and on top of the skin...looks more finished than the others. Small spot of hi at L eye.
27 Head is yellower, the sumi is deeper under the skin
28 Head is more yellow, sumi is at vary depths, Hi spot on head
29 Head is yellow, very deep sumi with some starting to surface, might be a touch of hi on head, hard to tell
30 Intermediate depth of sumi, head yellowish with some reflectiveness.
This is how I would have placed them
30
27
29
28
1
Actually what you notice does matter and you made some good observations. What I am trying to focus in on right now is just skin quality. The quality of the skin (shiroji) is what makes the colors in the Koi look good. If you can pick good skin you will be able to find better Koi.
Russell Peters
08-20-2011, 09:02 PM
I conducted some classes at my store about a year and a half ago. The rules were that none of the Koi were for sale and you could not focus on pattern. This is a very difficult thing to do as pattern is the first thing people tend to look for. I would put a group of four or five Koi in a tub and I would say pick the best skin, pick the best Beni and so on. having to focus on just one thing at a time made a big differnce and my customers did start to catch on. Once you get past this point adding pattern to the equation becomes a whole different experience.
Dravin
08-22-2011, 10:31 AM
****, I missed this one when it was posted :-(. Do another Russ!
Russell Peters
08-22-2011, 12:39 PM
****, I missed this one when it was posted :-(. Do another Russ!
I am not done with this one yet. I want to follow up with different levels of skin quality and what to look for in Sumi. I will also post some pictures of older Shiro with this skin quality and some that are better. I will be starting many, many more threads over the next few months.
Russell Peters
08-23-2011, 11:04 PM
An important thing to remember is that Koi, on any level, take years to develop and you will see changes caused by temperature, stress and by part of their normal cycle of growth. Koi can finish at different times but not be fully finished so it's important to understand these changes. The skin on Koi will go through these changes but, if there is quality, there will always be some visible signs of this. You will find that these changes happen more often in younger Koi so ptients and understanding is important. I have seen quite a few people give up on their Koi too soon as they took these changes as failure rather than a temperary setback.
With this thread we have taken a look at skin on young Shiro Utsuri. The quality shows itself differently than it would on a two or three year old Koi because, as the Koi ages, the skin will thicken. This does not always present itself in a good way. What I mean by this is that there may be times where the skin can yellow a bit or it may loose some of its brightness but it useually is temporary and it is something that can happen each season. Sumi is actually a very good example of what I mean. How many of you have seen Sumi dull, or even disappear when the weather gets hotter? I have seen so many posts, on this board, where people have posted that they are worried there Sumi is going away. This is something that can happen each year, and for many years, until the Koi gets older. Skin will do the same thing.
I remember when I first started out as a hobbiest and I went looking for the Koi I saw in books and magazines and I always thought that I could find them at Tosai. I never realized that Koi just don't come like that and I know I am not alone. It wasn't until I met Mr. Sakai that I first started to understand this and it was actually very funny. I think it was my third trip to INC. I was with a customer, who is still a very good friend, and I was picking Koi with Mr. Sakai. It's very unusual picking Koi at INC. At all other breeders facilities they hand you a net and you start picking. When you go to INC you are driven to various locations and all of the ponds are huge. They have to be seined to catch the Koi and, once they are in the net, Mr. Sakai asks you what you are looking for and what your price range is. he then tubs the Koi for you and you are free to say yes or no. Anyway, I was doing my usual thing and I was looking for Koi that I thought would sell, I was looking for more finished Koi that you would see in books and magazines. Mr. Sakai put in 3, very unfinished Showa, into the tub with a few other Koi more to my liking. I said no to the 3 Showa he put in and yes to a few others. The ones I accepted were moved to another holding tank and the process started again. There were the same 3 Showa in the tub with some new Koi. Well, I put them back again and, since Miwa wasn't there to translate, Mr. Sakai pulled the same 3 Showa and put them into a tub by themselves. he then pointed to them and said something in Japanese. I didn't know what he said but I turned to my friend and said, "I think he wants me to buy them" :rolleyes:. Pretty astute, wouldn't you say? Once I said yes he got this very happy look on his face. They were to become my study Koi.:D:
What was undeniable was the skin quality but where were the patterns? The patterns, I learned, were not the most important part of the equation. They would come in time though. I am posting the pic of the 3 Showa but, I am sad to say, they did not stick around long enough for me to take follow up pictures.
Russell Peters
08-23-2011, 11:25 PM
Notice that Mr. Sakai placed 3 different types of Showa in the bowl as well. One has a very full beni pattern, one has a nice two step Beni pattern and one is heavy on the front with almost no Beni at the back. He wanted me to see how they would turn out with all 3 colors rather than relying on what is most typical.
Russell Peters
08-23-2011, 11:26 PM
What this did teach me though is that, picking Koi, in any variety, and on any level, should always start with skin and quality.
Russell Peters
08-23-2011, 11:45 PM
I downloaded these pics from the Judging section in main. Take a look and rank them 1 to 4 based on skin quality.:D:
Joey S
08-24-2011, 12:27 AM
C, A, D, B
I have two SUs that would be good to judge...if only I had their baby pics.
Sp00ks
08-24-2011, 07:25 AM
C, A, D, B
Although I am having a little trouble with A. I think it's the picture itself. D appears to have a tint but can't tell if it's the picture.
I didn't see Joey's reply when I made my choices.
rainblood
08-24-2011, 10:28 AM
Acbd
stephen
08-24-2011, 10:37 AM
a,b,c,d
Russell Peters
08-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Keep them coming.:yahoo: The tint in the pictures makes it a little more difficult but try just to focus on the skin. Think silk vs. cotton.
cindy
08-24-2011, 11:05 AM
A c d b
cindy
08-24-2011, 11:07 AM
Great thread, I would have initially went for the almost finished shiro. I know now that my little Stephen shiro has gorgeous white skin so I'll know what to watch for
Russell Peters
08-24-2011, 11:42 AM
Great thread, I would have initially went for the almost finished shiro. I know now that my little Stephen shiro has gorgeous white skin so I'll know what to watch for
I think you have to go with what suits you best but, like I said before, knowing more about how Koi develop helps with making other choices as well.:D:
Spirits
08-24-2011, 09:08 PM
A,c,b,d
andres58
08-24-2011, 10:50 PM
acbd
nebriowa
08-25-2011, 02:03 AM
C b a d
Dravin
08-25-2011, 09:56 AM
Acbd
Marilyn
08-25-2011, 12:39 PM
C, A, D, B
I have two SUs that would be good to judge...if only I had their baby pics.
This would be the order I have them in too. :yes:
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 01:56 PM
A,C,B,D is what I would have picked. A and C are very close but, from what I can see, the skin on A is better but the skin on C is thicker so it looks better now. I am looking at what I think would be best down the road. To me B and D were very simple to place. If you look at D the skin doesn't have much glow and it looks more like cotton than silk. I would put b last for other reasons but we are just looking at skin for the moment.
If I were picking, for today, and took everything into consideration, I would place them C,D,A,B. If I were picking for the future, and took everything into consideration, I would go with A,C,D,B.
Joey S
08-25-2011, 02:01 PM
If I were picking, for today, and took everything into consideration, I would place them C,D,A,B. If I were picking for the future, and took everything into consideration, I would go with A,C,D,B.
Interesting...could you elaborate on the difference, please.
andres58
08-25-2011, 03:24 PM
acbd:oyes:
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 03:25 PM
Interesting...could you elaborate on the difference, please.
The skin and body are better on A which makes it a better future fish. If you are judging for NOW then none of that applies. If you want to look at something better for now then the other is the choice. I prefer to wait.
rainblood
08-25-2011, 03:39 PM
Acbd
A,C,B,D is what I would have picked.
:flypig::flypig::flypig:
Look out folks, the sky is falling :humble:
stephen
08-25-2011, 03:47 PM
.
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 04:11 PM
.
I see your perioditis is flaring up again. Where did you get that?:thinking:
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 04:13 PM
:oyes:
:flypig::flypig::flypig:
Look out folks, the sky is falling :humble:
Would you both like a cookie?
rainblood
08-25-2011, 04:19 PM
Cranberry Raisin please :yes:
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 06:31 PM
Skin quality is very important. As I have said before, and I will keep saying, it is responsible for how the other colors on Koi look and show. With Shiro Utsuri you want to pick the best quality Sumi as well. The Sumi needs to be a deep blue-black and not the brownish/red black you see with some of the lower quality Sumi. You might ask, "How do I know the quality of the Sumi on a Tosai when it is not up?" Well, the answer is usually you can't. You can educate yourselves to the different breeders and learn about their Sumi but, it still comes down to this, all breeders have different levels of quality so just going by the breeders name won't give you high quality. This is where your learning to recognize quality comes in handy. Once you find a Koi, and know that it is higher quality, and you've picked a young Tosai from this breeder known for his quality the chances increase that you will end up with high quality Sumi.
The only issue then left is that about the pattern. Sometimes it will be a gamble, if none of the Sumi is up, and sometimes you will see it underneath. Usually what you see underneath will come up. For me, there is more importance to quality than pattern. This does not mean you can't get good quality and pattern though. If you know what to look for it will better your chances of getting both.
Dravin
08-25-2011, 06:31 PM
I think either russell is the greatest teacher on the face of the earth, the sky really is falling, or I just won the lotto because I'm usually never right!
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 07:05 PM
I think either russell is the greatest teacher on the face of the earth, the sky really is falling, or I just won the lotto because I'm usually never right!
Would you like a cookie?:there:
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 07:17 PM
OK, I've got one more that I thought would be fun. In this picture there is a group of Hosokai Shiro Utsuri Tosai. Pick the one you think would be best in the future. BTW, if you don't pick the one my customer picked you won't get to see it:there: but I do have progress pictures of one of these that goes back to 2006. Hosokai has some of the best Shiro Utsuri I have ever seen and his skin and Sumi is stunning. He has won major awards for them. I will post pictures of some of his older, more finished Shiro later.:D:
Dravin
08-25-2011, 08:37 PM
This is the worst picture yet!!! Where is the zoom in feature. I suppose for me it would be down to one of the middle 2 koi. I'll go with the 3rd from the left.
Russell Peters
08-25-2011, 08:50 PM
This is the worst picture yet!!! Where is the zoom in feature. I supposed for me it would be down to one of the middle 2 koi. I'll go with the 3rd from the left.
I just realized I forgot to number them, give me a minute and then you'll be set.
BekkoIsTheBest
08-25-2011, 09:17 PM
I'd pick number 3 if I was looking towards the future. Where the tail curves, there is a black line following the curve of the body. Is that sumi or a shadow?
rainblood
08-25-2011, 09:25 PM
I think either russell is the greatest teacher on the face of the earth, the sky really is falling, or I just won the lotto because I'm usually never right!
Or 4. We've all been brainwashed the same ;)
rainblood
08-25-2011, 09:26 PM
3
Joey S
08-25-2011, 09:52 PM
This is tough...I will eliminate 4 because of it's already fully developed sumi. I should prolly eliminate what I think is 1 for the same reason, but I like the broad body and nice pecs; looks to be the largest fish in the tank, too, but that's not always the best either...what do you call the biggest of the spawn? Number 3 I guess should go for similar reason, and I see lots of sumi underneat yet to come, meaning it could be a fairly dark fish later, but the skin looks good if you can tell much from the pics. So that leaves me with 2 and 5...not exactly where I'm happy picking. :D: I can't see the pecs and can't quite tell much from tale tubes. Neither have broad shoulders...and no way to tell male/female. :thinking: If I were there and could afford it, I'd take them both. That's why you should see the two I have. But, if only one, then I would take
Number 2
Marilyn
08-26-2011, 04:13 AM
3 for me. I can't get past the skin to pick another. :rolleyes:
2 looks like it's going to be big and it's a lighter patterned SU which seem to have found favor of late. I almost hope it's 2 so we can see update pics.
Joey S
08-26-2011, 04:39 AM
3 for me. I can't get past the skin to pick another. :rolleyes:
2 looks like it's going to be big and it's a lighter patterned SU which seem to have found favor of late. I almost hope it's 2 so we can see update pics.
:yes: Will just have to wait and see. :D:
andres58
08-26-2011, 08:34 AM
between 2 and 3 ................ I'll take 2 and watch it develop.
powerman
08-26-2011, 09:07 AM
number 2 would be my pick.....that's probably why I have white shiro utsuri in my pond still waiting for sumi...
Russell Peters
08-26-2011, 11:38 AM
I'd pick number 3 if I was looking towards the future. Where the tail curves, there is a black line following the curve of the body. Is that sumi or a shadow?
Sumi
rainblood
08-26-2011, 12:00 PM
I would rank them 3, 1, 2, 5, 4
MikeS
08-26-2011, 01:18 PM
2, 3 , 5, 1, 4
nebriowa
08-26-2011, 02:07 PM
I really like number 1, but the head looks really yellow, and I don't know if that would ever turn white. So I will be like the majority and go with number 3.
Dravin
08-27-2011, 03:58 PM
:biggrininvasion::biggrininvasion::biggrininvasion ::biggrininvasion:
We are all waiting as you can see :imp:
Russell Peters
08-28-2011, 07:39 PM
It's been a busy couple of days. I hope to get back to this soon.
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 03:01 PM
There is an interesting story about this tub of 5 Shiro Utsuri Tosai from Hosokai. While we were in Japan in October of 2007 my customer asked if we could talk to Masaru Hosokai about getting a high quality Shiro. He had one left and it was in a greenhouse that he kept his better Koi in. While there we noticed a second one but Masaru told us it was not for sale. It was bound for the All Japan Koi Show. The first time we saw the Shiro my customer picked was as a Sansai Koi and Masaru sent us the picture of it as Tosai after the fact. The Shiro my customer picked was #5. I would rate the top 3 as #3, #5 and #2. I am leaving the other two as a toss up.
Here are a couple picture of #5 the first time we saw it as Sansai.
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 03:06 PM
Here is a picture of it coming out of a Hosokai mud pond the following year as a Gosai. I am not sure why but I don't have any top view pictures of it. My customer sent me some and I'll post it later.
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 03:14 PM
I also have these pictures of the Sansai Shiro Utsuri that was in the same greenhouse. I am posting this so you can look at the Sashi on this Koi. There has been some information posted about how Sashi should only be one scale deep and I have posted that the breeders I deal with don't say that. They say that it shows how deep the color is and as the skin thickens it will cover up. You can see areas on this Shiro where, even at 3 years old, the Sashi is 2 scales deep. Remember, this is Shiro that Hosokai chose to enter at the All Japan Koi Show
rainblood
08-29-2011, 03:20 PM
I also have these pictures of the Sansai Shiro Utsuri that was in the same greenhouse. I am posting this so you can look at the Sashi on this Koi. There has been some information posted about how Sashi should only be one scale deep and I have posted that the breeders I deal with don't say that. They say that it shows how deep the color is and as the skin thickens it will cover up. You can see areas on this Shiro where, even at 3 years old, the Sashi is 2 scales deep. Remember, this is Shiro that Hosokai chose to enter at the All Japan Koi Show
Do you have any pics of how it looked the show?
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
Do you have any pics of how it looked the show?
Maybe, I'll have to look through my files. If I find it, I'll post it.
Joey S
08-29-2011, 03:31 PM
A,C,B,D is what I would have picked. A and C are very close but, from what I can see, the skin on A is better but the skin on C is thicker so it looks better now. I am looking at what I think would be best down the road. To me B and D were very simple to place. If you look at D the skin doesn't have much glow and it looks more like cotton than silk. I would put b last for other reasons but we are just looking at skin for the moment.
If I were picking, for today, and took everything into consideration, I would place them C,D,A,B. If I were picking for the future, and took everything into consideration, I would go with A,C,D,B.
Interesting...could you elaborate on the difference, please.
Well now I'm really confused. :rolleyes: Seems to be a persistent state for me. :D: I am trying to refocus on "D" the merits and DEmerits. I placed it third on my initial look and you put it 4th/last for the lack of good skin (cotton vs silk), I think. Then it got moved to second place for "today", and back to third for "future". Maybe a typo somewhere?
This is a great thing you are taking time to do for us, and I am really trying to learn something about koi besides their health!! I know it's hard teaching and learning from pics. I wish we could repost the pics in a split screen somehow so we could see the pics and read the comments.
HEY, JUSTIN...just another little thing to put on your "todo" list.
Joey S
08-29-2011, 03:39 PM
Well, while I was trying to compose my post on the ABCD series, we now have wonderful pics of #5 in the first series. Now I am not only confused but slow, too. :D:
Your customer got one downright pretty SU, Russ
cindy
08-29-2011, 03:52 PM
I guess I need to learn the terms for the colors. Sumi is black? Sashi is?
And the finished glamor shots, do they color the head whiter?
rainblood
08-29-2011, 03:58 PM
Sashi is the leading edge of color.
I think. Unless I got that backwards :redface:
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Sashi is the leading edge of color.
I think. Unless I got that backwards :redface:
Yes, you are correct.
Russell Peters
08-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Well now I'm really confused. :rolleyes: Seems to be a persistent state for me. :D: I am trying to refocus on "D" the merits and DEmerits. I placed it third on my initial look and you put it 4th/last for the lack of good skin (cotton vs silk), I think. Then it got moved to second place for "today", and back to third for "future". Maybe a typo somewhere?
This is a great thing you are taking time to do for us, and I am really trying to learn something about koi besides their health!! I know it's hard teaching and learning from pics. I wish we could repost the pics in a split screen somehow so we could see the pics and read the comments.
HEY, JUSTIN...just another little thing to put on your "todo" list.
I know it is confusing but there are several factors that affect the way I look at Koi. For me, skin quality is the most important thing. This is what I am hoping a lot of you will learn to recognize following these threads. Once you learn to recognize skin quality it may, or may not, affect your decisions on what you buy. It doesn't have too as you should always pick what you are most happy with. It can help you make more informed choices, and this could lead to a better value long term. It may even help keep you from paying too much for a Koi that isn't really worth it in the long run.
The order I laid out, for the first 5 Shiro Tosai was based soley on skin quality but confirmation and pattern also affect how I look at Koi. The second time I put them in order it was based on adding conformation and pattern for today. The third time I laid them put them in order it was based on adding conformation and pattern for the future. The last two rankings become much more subjective and my goal, with these threads, is to give you guys the ability to make the same choices for yourselves.
Remember, there isn't a "perfect" Koi so, the best you can do when choosing, is to educate yourselves on skin quality, conformation and pattern so you make the best possible choices for yourselves.
I hope this helps with some of the confusion. If not, hang around, it'll become more clear eventually.
Dravin
08-29-2011, 10:39 PM
Russell can tell me if I'm right or wrong because this is something that I've heard but I don't remember where from so I could be wrong. Anyways, sashi does tell a lot about the fish, but it really doesn't matter how many scales back the sashi goes. What is important is that in a growing koi you see sashi, meaning the skin hasn't thickened up and the fish is starting to finish. The other thing to look for is that the sashi is "even" in it's transparency. If you look at the oval in the picture below, you can see even perfect sashi. If you look at the rectangle (while not bad) you can see that it's consistency changes which means that the thickness of the scales varies or the depth of the beni is stronger on some parts than others. You would normally prefer the oval over the rectangular box when picking a young koi.
414874
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 11:41 AM
Russell can tell me if I'm right or wrong because this is something that I've heard but I don't remember where from so I could be wrong. Anyways, sashi does tell a lot about the fish, but it really doesn't matter how many scales back the sashi goes. What is important is that in a growing koi you see sashi, meaning the skin hasn't thickened up and the fish is starting to finish. The other thing to look for is that the sashi is "even" in it's transparency. If you look at the oval in the picture below, you can see even perfect sashi. If you look at the rectangle (while not bad) you can see that it's consistency changes which means that the thickness of the scales varies or the depth of the beni is stronger on some parts than others. You would normally prefer the oval over the rectangular box when picking a young koi.
414874
Yes, you don't want to buy young Koi without Sashi. I don't really know where a lot of the information comes from. I always had heard that you have to have sharp defined Kiwa and perfect Sashi one scale deep but, that was here in the US. When we started to develop our relationships, with the breeders we deal with, they began to teach about these same things. Guess what? It wasn't quite the same information. Nothing is ever perfect in a Koi. You will never find the perfect Koi. A Koi that is developing is always changing as well, sometimes it happens very slowly and sometimes quickly. Either way, if you are looking for future Koi then you don't want a sharp Kiwa and a well defined, perfectly laid out Sashi, per se. That Koi is either finished or beginning to finish.
In each of the threads I will be starting I am going to give out information that has been given to us by the breeders with work with Most of the information has come from Toshio Sakai.
rainblood
08-30-2011, 11:47 AM
I know what kiwa is, but can you define "sharp" kiwa
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 12:30 PM
I know what kiwa is, but can you define "sharp" kiwa
For those that don't know, Kiwa is the back edge of the pattern. There are two types of Kiwa, Maruzome Kiwa and Kamizore Kiwa. Of the two, Maruzome Kiwa is an indicator of high quality Beni. Here is a quote, and picture from the INC (Matsunosuke) website.
Properly formed, high quality Beni is elastic, and will have a tendency to contract as the fish grows. Subsequently, the Beni will be pulled toward the root of scales.
This pulling will create the round edge Kiwa, called Maruzome, even if the Kiwa might be undefined and irregular at first. Maruzome is an indicator of a high quality Beni. One must look for Beni and Kiwa and determine if these formations might contract with growth. Maruzome Kiwa cannot be created unless the Beni is elastic.
In the picture I have highlighted, with a squarish box, the area of maruzome Kiwa that is still developing and I have highlighted, in a roundish circle, the area of Maruzome Kiwa that has already developed. This would be sharp Kiwa. Maruzome Kiwa will develop from the bottom to the top and from the front of the Koi to the back.
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 12:34 PM
When I first started, in Koi, I was told that, this "unfinished" Kiwa, was not desirable. This is actually the furthest thing from the truth and it is why I challenge statements like, "i''ve always heard that sashi should be no more than 1 scale in width, more than this and it just stays messy (not clean/defined)." which was posted on a sales thread I have for a Dainichi Showa in the market Place.
cindy
08-30-2011, 12:45 PM
Sasha is front, Kiwa is the back edge of the pattern. Taking notes. Might be great koi names.
Joey S
08-30-2011, 12:45 PM
:ok: Russ...I think I'm getting it. Not the fish for sale, but the concept you are explaining.:check::more:
rainblood
08-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Well, I don't mind if I do, since I am the only one picking your brain this morning.
So what is "saw-tooth" kiwa that I hear people negatively *****ing about when critiquing koi?
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Well, I don't mind if I do, since I am the only one picking your brain this morning.
So what is "saw-tooth" kiwa that I hear people negatively *****ing about when critiquing koi?
Here you go you stud muffin you.:D:
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 01:01 PM
BTW, I want to answer all of these questions but, what I really want to do, is to start individual threads when I start teaching about these things so that people can look into a specific thread, without a lot of searching, to find specific information. This is going to take some time to do.
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Well, I don't mind if I do, since I am the only one picking your brain this morning.
So what is "saw-tooth" kiwa that I hear people negatively *****ing about when critiquing koi?
BTW, what does ***** mean in this instance?:rolleyes::thinking:
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 01:03 PM
:ok: Russ...I think I'm getting it. Not the fish for sale, but the concept you are explaining.:check::more:
:d:
rainblood
08-30-2011, 01:11 PM
BTW, I want to answer all of these questions but, what I really want to do, is to start individual threads when I start teaching about these things so that people can look into a specific thread, without a lot of searching, to find specific information. This is going to take some time to do.
Then quit lollygagging and get to it :whip:
Russell Peters
08-30-2011, 01:12 PM
Then quit lollygagging and get to it :whip:
:pffft:
Marilyn
08-30-2011, 01:22 PM
BTW, I want to answer all of these questions but, what I really want to do, is to start individual threads when I start teaching about these things so that people can look into a specific thread, without a lot of searching, to find specific information. This is going to take some time to do.
:w00t:
Great idea and thank you.
nebriowa
08-30-2011, 01:59 PM
Very intrigued by the kiwa on this koi. Based on my inexperience, I would be worried that the beni would fade in the area surrounded by the square box, where the kiwa was unfinished/blurred. Do you have a photo of how this koi developed and did the unfinished kiwa turn into marusome kiwa? How would you go about determining if a particular koi had unfinished kiwa that would finish nicely, versus having kiwa that would lead you to believe the beni would recede? Would a main factor be the breeder and the traits of the oyagoi?
For those that don't know, Kiwa is the back edge of the pattern. There are two types of Kiwa, Maruzome Kiwa and Kamizore Kiwa. Of the two, Maruzome Kiwa is an indicator of high quality Beni. Here is a quote, and picture from the INC (Matsunosuke) website.
In the picture I have highlighted, with a squarish box, the area of maruzome Kiwa that is still developing and I have highlighted, in a roundish circle, the area of Maruzome Kiwa that has already developed. This would be sharp Kiwa. Maruzome Kiwa will develop from the bottom to the top and from the back of the Koi to the front.
Dravin
08-30-2011, 04:52 PM
For those that don't know, Kiwa is the back edge of the pattern. There are two types of Kiwa, Maruzome Kiwa and Kamizore Kiwa. Of the two, Maruzome Kiwa is an indicator of high quality Beni. Here is a quote, and picture from the INC (Matsunosuke) website.
In the picture I have highlighted, with a squarish box, the area of maruzome Kiwa that is still developing and I have highlighted, in a roundish circle, the area of Maruzome Kiwa that has already developed. This would be sharp Kiwa. Maruzome Kiwa will develop from the bottom to the top and from the back of the Koi to the front.
Now don't you be lying to me Russell!! I'm putting these facts in the bank as facts and I'll know who to send my goons after if they prove to be lies~~~ :yes:
Russell Peters
08-31-2011, 11:27 AM
Very intrigued by the kiwa on this koi. Based on my inexperience, I would be worried that the beni would fade in the area surrounded by the square box, where the kiwa was unfinished/blurred. Do you have a photo of how this koi developed and did the unfinished kiwa turn into marusome kiwa? How would you go about determining if a particular koi had unfinished kiwa that would finish nicely, versus having kiwa that would lead you to believe the beni would recede? Would a main factor be the breeder and the traits of the oyagoi?
Beni is often misunderstood and I have brought up before that there is a difference between Beni that is week and Beni that is changing. Understanding what to look for is what helps determine this. I do not have another picture of this Koi finished but it is a picture from Mr. Sakai that he uses in his lectures. This is the wrong thread to go over all of this information but I will be doing threads about this in the future.
In a nutshell, the ability for Beni to do this is determined by the genetics of the Koi. There are several indicators that are used to show the quality of the Beni. If these indicators are present when this is happening then the Beni will recede to create Maruzome Kiwa.