The Art of Understanding Koi

[Russell Peters]

I have had the pleasure of studying Koi, with Toshio Sakai, for the last four years and I am hoping it will continue for many years to come. Toshio Sakai has done more for the development of Koi than any other breeder. There is no question about this and it is truley phenominal to listen to his insights, not only on how Koi develop, but on how to care for and feed them. He is developing new lines, his Shiro Utsuri is his latest challenge, and he is always trying to improve what he has. He never accepts what is and is always looking for what he could do to improve Koi.

His challenge continues to be the production of Koi with further improvement in size, quality and long lasting beauty.

[Russell Peters]

What I would like to do in this forum is to pass on a lot of this information as most of it, if not all of it, applies to all Koi in general. No matter what your level , or what you expect from Koi you purchase, this information will help you understand Koi, on a different level, and help you make choices that are more likely to give you what you expect from your Koi. If nothing else you may pick up a few interesting tidbits. I encourage you to participate and not be afraid that you don't know enough. The best way to learn is to participate. Asking questions and getting answers is a must in any education. We all see things a little differently so if you don't ask you may not get the full benefit from this information.

[cindy]

THank you, I consider you one of the most knowledgeble people on the board.

[Russell Peters]

THank you, I consider you one of the most knowledgeble people on the board.

:embarassed: Thank you, the WWKC / Koiphen is a great place and I would like to help it become even better.:yahoo:

[Russell Peters]

I will primarily focus on Gosanke but I do see that this can branch into other varieties as well. I will discuss as many aspects about Koi development as I can. Topics will include conformation, skin quality, Beni and Sumi development, including tips on what to look for in future development. I think an important topic in Beni discussion is the difference between weak Beni and Beni that is changing. We can even go into the importance of pattern. I am sure other topics will come to mind as I go along and I will start seperate threads for each. Please participate. The more you participate, the more you will learn.

Disclaimer; I don't consider lurking participation:D:

[Russell Peters]

One of the most important topics I would like to discuss, at some point, is the difference between Koi you would pick for show and Koi you would pick for long term development or enjoyment. I think some people confuse these as the same type of Koi. They aren't and I think it is important to understand this so you make choices that you will be happy with for a long time.

[Russell Peters]

BTW, for the most part, this is the only part of the forum that you will find this information. I will always be available to answer questions, through PM's, but I think this is a great venue for these types of threads.:yes:

[CdnJCR]

:pullup:
I am thinking another year or two at most I may have enough of an understanding to post a question.

[cooper0038]

I am thinking another year or 3 at least and I may be able to phrase a question using the correct terminology. This is a fantastic service and is greatly appreciated.

[Russell Peters]

:pullup:
I am thinking another year or two at most I may have enough of an understanding to post a question.


I am thinking another year or 3 at least and I may be able to phrase a question using the correct terminology. This is a fantastic service and is greatly appreciated.

Any level of participation, on your part, will make this more enjoyable. Don't hesitate to ask any questions, it will make a big difference.

[Hi Utsuri]

I have a VERY general question about what determines good quality in koi. Please forgive the simple-minded nature of my question, but like many others here, I am very new to this hobby.

How was it determined what qualifies as desirable characteristics vs non-desirable characteristics in koi? For example, take sumi. From what I have studied, a nice deep lacquer black is good, whereas a broken up and shallow black is not so good. Or take conformation - why is it that an elongated football shape is highly regarded, but a slender shape is not.

Who came up with these "rules" in the first place? When were they developed? Are there any empirical objective reasons why one characteristic is preferred over another?

I ask this question because all this seems rather subjective to me. :scratch:

.

[nytwinskoi]

I received an e mail from Kodama koi. I did ask this question to WWKC members before with good response and I would like to share with our members.

Why is my kois Hi disappearing? Ref: from Kodama Koi
The Carotene in the HI is fading because the nutrients are being used to protect the body.
1. The koi is growing too fast and the HI cannot catch up. This means that the kois body is growing faster than the kois pattern.
2. If you notice that the kois Hi is beginning to fade, then you should reduce the amount of koi food. This will slow the kois growth.
3. Another reason could be the water quality.
4. Your ponds nitrite and ammonia levels are not stable.This could be because your filter is not big enough for your pond. Or you may have too many koi in the pond.
5. Lastly any type of changes could cause the kois HI to go down such as heavy rain, illness, and water temperatures raising and falling, handling during shipment

Thanks

[Russell Peters]

I have a VERY general question about what determines good quality in koi. Please forgive the simple-minded nature of my question, but like many others here, I am very new to this hobby.

How was it determined what qualifies as desirable characteristics vs non-desirable characteristics in koi? For example, take sumi.
From what I have studied, a nice deep lacquer black is good, whereas a broken up and shallow black is not so good. Or take conformation - why is it that an elongated football shape is highly regarded, but a slender shape is not.

Who came up with these "rules" in the first place? When were they developed? Are there any empirical objective reasons why one characteristic is preferred over another?

I ask this question because all this seems rather subjective to me. :scratch:

.

Hi Fred,

What determines quality in anything? It's hard to miss in just about anything but not knowing true quality in Koi is a real issue. Quality start with skin, if there is no luster then none of the colors will really look good. This is not a topic I can give you a simple answer to but, if you follow the threads I am going to post, you will start to see some of the answers.

I do want to addres your comment about Sumi though.


From what I have studied, a nice deep lacquer black is good, whereas a broken up and shallow black is not so good.

If you have a Showa that is 18 years old and it has broken up and shallow black then I would say there is some truth to this statement. What if that Showa is 9 months old or 18 months old? This statement may be entirely wrong. Understanding color develpment and quality, given the age of the specific Koi, is very important. These are things I will be covering.


Showa is my favorite variety so much so that it is a passion and an obsession so when I see comments like "there isn't enough Sumi on this to be a good Showa" or " there is no Motoguru, there fore the Sumi is bad" and many other statements like these and the Showa is 1 - 3 years old it gets me going. I will cover the reasons why in a seperate thread but I will say this. Showa are a black fish so, it stands to reason, that you can't judge a Showa, by criteria for a finished Showa, when it is young. It just doesn't work. If the indicators are there, the Sumi will come and develop. Now, if you took that fish to a Koi show and it was being judged for the day it would be a different story.

As far as conformation goes, everything we go by was determined by the Japanese breeders that set the standards. You can only adjust to what you have in front of you though. By this I mean, the breeders deal with hundreds of thousands of Koi every year. What do we have? Not so many right? The single most important learning tool I have, after Toshio Sakai's teachings, is the abiltity to go to Japan every year and look at Koi. I make it a point to spend all the time I can just watching and studying. When I go to the All Japan Koi Show I try to look at every single Koi that is there. I mean really look and I always run out of time. I could walk through quickly and "see" every Koi that is there but that's not what is important. You really need to watch them, you need to see them move and take in the quality that they all possess. This is what gets you to the point of seeing why the standards for quality and conformation exist.

[Russell Peters]

I received an e mail from Kodama koi. I did ask this question to WWKC members before with good response and I would like to share with our members.

Why is my kois Hi disappearing? Ref: from Kodama Koi
The Carotene in the HI is fading because the nutrients are being used to protect the body.
1. The koi is growing too fast and the HI cannot catch up. This means that the kois body is growing faster than the kois pattern.
2. If you notice that the kois Hi is beginning to fade, then you should reduce the amount of koi food. This will slow the kois growth.
3. Another reason could be the water quality.
4. Your ponds nitrite and ammonia levels are not stable.This could be because your filter is not big enough for your pond. Or you may have too many koi in the pond.
5. Lastly any type of changes could cause the kois HI to go down such as heavy rain, illness, and water temperatures raising and falling, handling during shipment

Thanks

They left out one very good reason that Beni goes away. It was a low quality fish with weak Beni.

[Hi Utsuri]

Hey Russell, thanks for the fast reply! :cool:

Yes, I have a "very general understanding" of how koi are judged differently based upon their stage of development, variety, etc...



What determines quality in anything? It's hard to miss in just about anything but not knowing true quality in Koi is a real issue.


So... by this statement, I am thinking that the criteria for judging koi are in fact subjective. Nothing wrong with that, as this is the case with just about all things we judge as beautiful.



... everything we go by was determined by the Japanese breeders that set the standards.

Aha! Now this is what I am trying to zero in on. :clap:

Aside from being addicted to koi, I am also an avid Japanese Iris collector. Just like with koi, there are national and even international iris competitions. There are judges, and world-wide organizations, and so on - just like with koi. There is a book called: "Handbook for Judges and Show Officials" that contains the codified set of rules for judging Japanese Iris. I wonder if there is some kind of judging criteria for koi set down in book form that is perhaps available to the general public? Do you know if such a book exists?

.

[Russell Peters]

Hey Russell, thanks for the fast reply! :cool:

Yes, I have a "very general understanding" of how koi are judged differently based upon their stage of development, variety, etc...



So... by this statement, I am thinking that the criteria for judging koi are in fact subjective. Nothing wrong with that, as this is the case with just about all things we judge as beautiful.



Aha! Now this is what I am trying to zero in on. :clap:

Aside from being addicted to koi, I am also an avid Japanese Iris collector. Just like with koi, there are national and even international iris competitions. There are judges, and world-wide organizations, and so on - just like with koi. There is a book called: "Handbook for Judges and Show Officials" that contains the codified set of rules for judging Japanese Iris. I wonder if there is some kind of judging criteria for koi set down in book form that is perhaps available to the general public? Do you know if such a book exists?

.

No, quality in Koi isn't really subjective at all. I say this because I deal with a lot of breeders and for them it is undeniable. If you put 100 Koi in front of them, with varying levels of quality, they will all pick the same Koi. So, if it is subjective, it is a learned subjectivity.;) The more you are exposed to it the more you will understand.

The ZNA has a rule book, I think it is called the "orange" book but am not sure. I don't know if the Shinkokai has a set of rules. When I judged the All Japan Koi Show, which is a Shinkokai show they give out a hand book and the only rules for judging are as follows;


Each Judge should make his / her decision based on body conformation, coloration, pattern, quality, character, dignity and over all look. Each decision will be registered with the judges name.




You should PM Koiman1950, Mike Perret, and see if he knows about the ZNA book.

[rainblood]

Are you going to start a new thread for beni discussion?

[Russell Peters]

Are you going to start a new thread for beni discussion?

Yes, but these threads are going to take time, there is alot to cover.

[koiman1950]

Are you going to start a new thread for beni discussion?

One step at a time, grasshoppa!lol

Well, Russ, thanks for mentioning me in all this, but truth be told, there are very few who have actually even seen the "orange book". Yes, that is what it is known by, at least here anyway. My understanding is that it has been translated only a very few times, and at least two of those translations were done by Grant Fujita. Sorry, but I have no clue what judging guidelines are incorporated in the orange book. Grant will be a guest speaker at our Monterey Bay club meeting next Friday. I will try to find out anything I can about this topic and let all those interested know what I learn.

Mike

[andres58]

Thanks Russ......I'm very pleased and thankful you've taken the lead in sharing with us your experience and understanding of Koi quality.

Is there a simple way or a check list if you will when considering 1 vs 2 vs 3 year old etc. etc.... We all operate under different spending budgets which for the most part impact the age of the Koi we are buying.

[Russell Peters]

Thanks Russ......I'm very pleased and thankful you've taken the lead in sharing with us your experience and understanding of Koi quality.

Is there a simple way or a check list if you will when considering 1 vs 2 vs 3 year old etc. etc.... We all operate under different spending budgets which for the most part impact the age of the Koi we are buying.

I think the best advantage you can have, when you educate yourself about quality, is that you will know if any Koi being offered, at whatever price, is a value or not. The main thing is that you don't want to pay more than a Koi is worth. Big doesn't necesarily mean it should cost more. You need to learn about quality and conformation to be best equiped and it is not a simple or easy road so I don't know that you can make up a check list. I have had customers buy very high quality 1 year old Koi that would have seemed to be a l;ot of money. Now that those Koi are older, and the quality has held, you could not buy that same Koi at this size for the original price. I have also seen others pay to much for a finished Koi only to watch it fall apart. The terrible thing is that, in some cases, the warning signs were already present in the Koi. try and learn as much as you can.

[andres58]

1. Skin quality
2. Conformation
3.
4.

[BarbJ]

One of the most important topics I would like to discuss, at some point, is the difference between Koi you would pick for show and Koi you would pick for long term development or enjoyment. I think some people confuse these as the same type of Koi. They aren't and I think it is important to understand this so you make choices that you will be happy with for a long time.

This is an aspect of koi appreciation that I'm most interested in.
When you talk about "long term development or enjoyment" are you talking about the enjoyment of watching a koi develop slowly over time to a final finished stage, or that the koi when finished, however long it takes, will then hold it's looks for a long time? Or a little of both?

I'm going to take a guess here, the answer to either will involve that word, "quality" again.:D:

But which ever scenario you're describing, could you talk about how quality will play into it?

[Russell Peters]

1. Skin quality
2. Conformation
3.
4.

This is what I base my choices on and has been a dscussion on the boards before. It's a tough one but, for me, it comes down to this. Would you rather have a Koi with great conformation and compromised quality or a Koi with great quality and compromised conformation? I think quality stands out more than anything else so having a good body and dull colors just doesn't do it.
Compromised conformation is what most Koi have anyway so adding quality to the equation just makes more sense.

[Russell Peters]

This is an aspect of koi appreciation that I'm most interested in.
When you talk about "long term development or enjoyment" are you talking about the enjoyment of watching a koi develop slowly over time to a final finished stage, or that the koi when finished, however long it takes, will then hold it's looks for a long time? Or a little of both?

I'm going to take a guess here, the answer to either will involve that word, "quality" again.:D:

But which ever scenario you're describing, could you talk about how quality will play into it?

What is hard for most people is that the best Koi tend to be the ugly duckling when they are young although, this is not always the case. Sometimes you will see the amazing quality and have to wait for the pattern but, to me, this doesn't make the Koi an ugly duckling. There are also Koi that look finished, when they are young, but they actually aren't. This is probably the most difficult idea to understand and recognize. Several years ago I was at INC picking Koi with Mr. Sakai and most everything coming out of the tank was in the $500.00 range wholesale. These Koi were small Nisai in the 10" - 12" range. One of the Sanke really struck me and I thought it was finished so I asked for a price. Mr. Sakai said 300,000yen. This was $3,000.00 then and would be around $3,750.00 now. I was stunned and suddenly realized I had to ask the question "why?" This questioned worried me because I was concerned about asking a foolish question. I stewed on it all day and finally, at dinner, I got up the courage to ask. Why is that Sanke so expensive when it looks finished? Mr. Sakai didn't even hesitate and his response was, "sometimes, the quality in a Koi is so good that it can look finished when it actually isn't".

What I learned about quality is this. The longer it takes for the quality in a Koi to develop, the better it will be and the longer it will last when it finishes. So, the enjoyment comes from watching it develop and being able to enjoy it for a lot longer when it finishes.

[rainblood]

OK. I think that the entire board, myself included, has been waiting to hear about a discussion on the most popular variety ever - the Shusui.

Please, go ahead :pullup:

[BarbJ]

That's the most popular?:scratch: It's nice, but...um kohaku, showa, sanke?

(OK, wait a minute...that may have been sarcasm. sumtimes i be dum.)

[Russell Peters]

OK. I think that the entire board, myself included, has been waiting to hear about a discussion on the most popular variety ever - the Shusui.

Please, go ahead :pullup:

Most, if not all, of what I will be discussing applies to all varieties of Koi. I am planning on visiting a breeder, named Mano, in October. One of the varieties he specializes in is Shusui. I am hoping we can find a few nice specimens, in an affordable price range, and I am hoping to reserve some Tosai for March.

[Russell Peters]

That's the most popular?:scratch: It's nice, but...um kohaku, showa, sanke?

(OK, wait a minute...that may have been sarcasm. sumtimes i be dum.)

Mr. rainblood is sometime confused by what he sees.

[rainblood]

Most, if not all, of what I will be discussing applies to all varieties of Koi. I am planning on visiting a breeder, named Mano, in October. One of the varieties he specializes in is Shusui. I am hoping we can find a few nice specimens, in an affordable price range, and I am hoping to reserve some Tosai for March.

Are you talking about a growout?

[Russell Peters]

Are you talking about a growout?

I usually never know what I am doing before I do it. It is very difficulkt to get his Shusui Tosai so I need to see what I can do first.

[BAVOTOI]

The answer It's yes I will ready at MAR. With NO back out.

[BAVOTOI]

Russ the best way to pick koi Skin quality and Conformation and development of koi to the time ???

[Russell Peters]

Russ the best way to pick koi Skin quality and Conformation and development of koi to the time ???

The best way is to learn to recognize what quality skin looks like. Recognizing the luster, sheen and depth that goes with quality skin is not always that easy. Conformation is about bone structure and proportion. This is easier to learn when you get to look at a lot of Koi.

[BAVOTOI]

can you show me step by step what quality skin with example please.

[Russell Peters]

can you show me step by step what quality skin with example please.

There are many threads, in this section, that touch upon skin quality. Have you read through all of the threads? Here is one of them.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?125586-Jihada-Skin-Quality

Skin quality is sometimes very difficult to show in pictures but, no promises, I will try to work on something. if it happens it will be a while because I will have to find examples of different types of skin.