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GloriaL
10-29-2008, 06:15 PM
My fish have acquired fish lice. I noticed this on Saturday and dosed the pond with 2-18 oz bottles of Anchors Away. The instruction say to wait two weeks and redose. The lice are multiplying by leaps and bounds! Counted 10 on one fish via the underwater camera! Pond volume is 9500 gallons so two bottles was slightly underdosed. I ordered Program tablets which came today. Water temp is 58. No way to significantly warm the water. Should I do a 50% change and dose with the program? All advice appreciated!!!

vipldy
10-29-2008, 06:24 PM
My fish have acquired fish lice. I noticed this on Saturday and dosed the pond with 2-18 oz bottles of Anchors Away. The instruction say to wait two weeks and redose. The lice are multiplying by leaps and bounds! Counted 10 on one fish via the underwater camera! Pond volume is 9500 gallons so two bottles was slightly underdosed. I ordered Program tablets which came today. Water temp is 58. No way to significantly warm the water. Should I do a 50% change and dose with the program? All advice appreciated!!!
Found this for you....


DIMILIN (brand name: Anchors Away by Jungle Labs or Express IDI (www.pondrx.com) For the treatment of anchor worms and fish lice. These parasites will not clear immediately. According to the water temperature, they will be eradicated anywhere from a few days to a few weeks.

GloriaL
10-29-2008, 06:34 PM
Thanks Marie. I knew it took a little time to eradicate them, but I didn't really expect them to multiply!

vipldy
10-29-2008, 06:36 PM
Thanks Marie. I knew it took a little time to eradicate them, but I didn't really expect them to multiply!

Your temps are not helping but what can ya do..

GloriaL
10-29-2008, 08:58 PM
Yeah It is pretty hard to heat that much water outside. I will put up the dome in a a month or so. I did not expect temperatures to be so low so soon. There are several panels in my dome I need to replace b/c of wind damage. I had thought heating the filter house would help, and maybe it is but I am certainly not keeping WARM temperatures, although they could be lower.

vipldy
10-29-2008, 09:03 PM
Yeah It is pretty hard to heat that much water outside. I will put up the dome in a a month or so. I did not expect temperatures to be so low so soon. There are several panels in my dome I need to replace b/c of wind damage. I had thought heating the filter hose would help, and maybe it is but I am certainly not keeping WARM temperatures, although they could be lower.

I hope they improve soon!

koi5555
10-29-2008, 11:01 PM
I had the pesky Argulus (fish lice) about a month ago. Not sure how I got them but they can be introduced by plants, birds, frogs etc;
I treated with Dimilin, two doses and it worked great. I was going to treat a third time (at about 30 days) but felt they didn't needed. I had ordered the Program tablets from my Vet but he took his sweet time to order them so I found Dimilin. Living in Canada, Dimilin is banned here, but where there is a will there is a way. The tablets are good till 2011 therefore i will keep them. If you order Program make sure they are tablets for an 80 lbs dog, one tablet per 1000 gal.

Dosage rates:

The recommended dosage rate is 0.03mg / litre (=0.11 mg / US gallon / 0.14 mg . Imp gallon). 76% of the treatment persists after one week. A second treatment 10 -14 days later should remove all stages of the parasite.

Good luck
Bill

lukef
10-29-2008, 11:08 PM
dimlin has a really really large margin between effective and dangerous..I think you can give about 50 times the effective dose without damaging the fish..
now don't go dosing it to 50x but you get my point..I always double dose with dimlin. (I get dimlin real cheap. if you know a bug guy real well you can too)

koi5555
10-29-2008, 11:20 PM
You are correct lukef, Dimilin is really cheap compare to Program.
It also stays in the water for a long time unless you do major water changes.

GloriaL
11-12-2008, 10:55 PM
Well I had the "Anchors Away" in the water for two weeks, still had lice. I did a 25% water change( had been out of time and missed last weeks water change). I redosed the pond w/ drug sufficient for 10,500 gallons on Sunday. My chagoi is absolutely infested with the critters. Plan to redose again on Sat AM. Water temps are 55-58. Should I switch to Program or just redose with the Anchors Away in another week after Saturday? I feel so bad for my fish and am worried that theere will be bacterial problems if I can't get rid of these
lice. No, I can't move them all to a hospital tank-I have 25 koi 14"-24" and 3 comets+ 2 shubunkins in 9500 gallons of water. The only way I can catch them is to drain the pond down to ~1500-3000 gallons and go wading. Then there is the issue of keeping 34 fish ( my 4 growouts are in there already) healthy in 1000 gallons of water. So......... H E L P !!!

Russell Peters
11-12-2008, 11:05 PM
Well I had the "Anchors Away" in the water for two weeks, still had lice. I did a 25% water change( had been out of time and missed last weeks water change). I redosed the pond w/ drug sufficient for 10,500 gallons on Sunday. My chagoi is absolutely infested with the critters. Plan to redose again on Sat AM. Water temps are 55-58. Should I switch to Program or just redose with the Anchors Away in another week after Saturday? I feel so bad for my fish and am worried that theere will be bacterial problems if I can't get rid of these
lice. No, I can't move them all to a hospital tank-I have 25 koi 14"-24" and 3 comets+ 2 shubunkins in 9500 gallons of water. The only way I can catch them is to drain the pond down to ~1500-3000 gallons and go wading. Then there is the issue of keeping 34 fish ( my 4 growouts are in there already) healthy in 1000 gallons of water. So......... H E L P !!!


The problem with the product you are using is that it is diluted. They want you to keep buying more.

koi5555
11-12-2008, 11:20 PM
Treat with Dimilin, two doses and it works great. Living in Canada, Dimilin is banned here, but where there is a will there is a way. They say the Program tablets are very good with only one treatment. If you order Program make sure they are tablets for an 80 lbs dog, one tablet per 1000 gal. Never got a chance to try the tablets as they came in too late but I'll keep them on the shelf, there good till 2011.
I wouldn't even waste my time treating again with "Anchors Away".
Treat with Dimilin, you will see a difference with the behavior of the Koi with-in a few days, it really works.

Dosage rates for Dimilin:

The recommended dosage rate is 0.03mg / litre (=0.11 mg / US gallon / 0.14 mg . Imp gallon). 76% of the treatment persists after one week. A second treatment 10 -14 days later should remove all stages of the parasite.

Good luck
Bill

GloriaL
11-12-2008, 11:27 PM
I am confused. Dimilin = diflurbenzuron = Anchors Away( minus a small amount of salt). So if it is dosed adequately, what is the difference?
Also, if I decide to use the Program, is it compatible with the diflurbenzuron? Is there any additive or synergistic effect with both of them in the water?

GloriaL
11-12-2008, 11:29 PM
The problem with the product you are using is that it is diluted. They want you to keep buying more.

Diluted as in the instructions have me seriously underdosing the pond? Does anybody have the info as to exactly how many grams of the active ingredient are in each 18 oz., 20oz. bottle/

saltiery
11-12-2008, 11:47 PM
dimilin is an ectoskeletal inhibitor....It does not "kill" lice or anchorworm. The parents die off in short order... and the young cannot produce the skeleton they need to matureand die off. The redose is in 14 days to intercept all of the young

vipldy
11-12-2008, 11:47 PM
Diluted as in the instructions have me seriously underdosing the pond? Does anybody have the info as to exactly how many grams of the active ingredient are in each 18 oz., 20oz. bottle/
From Erik. Johnson........................................... .....................................

"Fish Lice, or Argulus

Different names for the same parasite. This is a crustacean parasite, meaning it's a lot like a little crab. Little? Yeah, it's about 1/4 inch in diameter and they are EXTREMELY agile. I plan to upload a movie with these, so you can see it.

This parasite is commonly seen in the Fall of the year. Folks call me and say "My fish has a freckle."

Hmmmm A freckle? Well that happens sometimes it's called Shimi, and hard water causes it.

The next day, they call back. "Remember that freckle? Well it moved."

So, moving freckles.....Argulus!

Here again, if you can see the parasite, you can kill it with Dimilin. Dimiln's wonderful stuff but sometimes hard to get. As of this writing there's probably 3-4 different commercial "Dimilins" including: Anchor Control, Anchor's Away and Express IDI. Heck you can even get a labelled liquid "Dimilin" from API at the pet store most places.

I discovered *another* completely safe treatment you can get from your local Vet for about four bucks - (Program) but all the open-minded 'doctors' in rec.ponds once assured everyone that it would kill your fish, (of course they did not even try it) and the company that makes it would rather not have it mentioned. Tough luck. Dimilin is dosed at 0.5 to 1 ppm or one gram per thousand gallons."

-Erik Johnson

EDIT The Dimlin powder is stronger I think...

Russell Peters
11-13-2008, 09:01 AM
I am confused. Dimilin = diflurbenzuron = Anchors Away( minus a small amount of salt). So if it is dosed adequately, what is the difference?
Also, if I decide to use the Program, is it compatible with the diflurbenzuron? Is there any additive or synergistic effect with both of them in the water?

It is my understanding that to be "legal" the product was diluted as compared with real Dimilin. For instance, there are some procducts in the chemical market, like D-4-2, that I would need a permit to by but I can buy it diluted in 7.5 oz. quantities without a permit. All I have to do is add more to get the strength I need.

Steve Nguyen
11-13-2008, 10:47 AM
did you get a picture? just wondering what does fish lice looks like.

Steve

Ramcat
11-13-2008, 11:50 AM
I am confused. Dimilin = diflurbenzuron = Anchors Away( minus a small amount of salt). So if it is dosed adequately, what is the difference?
Also, if I decide to use the Program, is it compatible with the diflurbenzuron? Is there any additive or synergistic effect with both of them in the water?

I don't know if you feel this question has been answered. A few years ago a local koi dealer got argulus. I was called to look at it. We used the dog medication (1 tablet per 1000 gallons). Is that "Program"? I don't know. But I do know it kills argulus by inhibiting their molting/shell growth.

I would not wait and would use Program with the other chemicals in the water.

The stuff we used was 100% effective, this was 7 years ago and no reoccurance. I think we did dose twice, but I don't remember for sure.

GloriaL
11-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Thanks for the info, everybody. I still don't have any idea what the "strength" of the Dimilin is in the Anchors Away brand. My understanding of the Dimilin powder is that what you get is 25% Dimilin. Is this correct?
I don't havr pictures, but I can probably get them off my monitor tomorrow.

vipldy
11-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Thanks for the info, everybody. I still don't have any idea what the "strength" of the Dimilin is in the Anchors Away brand. My understanding of the Dimilin powder is that what you get is 25% Dimilin. Is this correct?
I don't havr pictures, but I can probably get them off my monitor tomorrow.

Think of it as Proform C has less Formalin in it than if you used straight formalin.

GloriaL
11-13-2008, 05:21 PM
I understand that everyone says that Anchors Away has "less" diflurbenzuron in it. I am used to dealing with drugs in varying concentrations, so you give according to total drug weight for your volume. I have sent an email to Jungle Corp asking for the actual concentration which I will post here if I receive an answer

sundan
11-13-2008, 06:25 PM
If you would like to buy dimlin, can get it at..
www.4fishstuff.com
forgot to add... CAUTION! This product can be sold only to customers possessing a restricted pesticide applicators license. This license information must be forwarded to the store before the product can be shipped. Please call the store for more details and availibilty. (800-940-3833) are ready for this, might want to sit down, cost $285 for 5 lbs of dimlin
so this might help, not sure if anyone has try this ...

http://nationalfishpharm.com/
called De-Los
Fish Disease Diagnosis: For control of anchor worms, lice, gill flukes and assorted external parasites on freshwater, Koi and marine tropical fish. Toxic to sharks and snails. Do not use on prehistoric fishes such as arowanas, silver dollars, lionfish. Not for use in tanks which contain invertebrates.

Fish Disease Treatment: 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Treat once a week for 4 weeks. 1/2 pound (treats 908 gal.) If you are using this product in outdoor Koi ponds, no water changes are necessary. This product will kill fluke eggs, Praziquantel will not.
1/2 Pound

$16.98


1 Pound


28.97


5 Pound Jumbo


127.88

nmtsaki
11-13-2008, 07:01 PM
Program is made by Novartis, I'm not sure if it's still sold in the U.S., since I could only find a site for NON-US residents. Maybe only available through a vet. In the past, I ordered it from Australia for a lot cheaper than I could get in the US. I don't know about it's compatibility with the other chemicals you're using, but I would hesitate to use them together, since they're both supposedly acting in the same manner (chitin/shell inhibitor).


Properties
Lufenuron, the active ingredient of PROGRAM, is an insect development inhibitor (IDI) belonging to the group of benzoyl-phenyl-ureas (BPUs). Like all BPU's, lufenuron acts as a chitin synthesis inhibitor. Female fleas feeding on treated animals will produce eggs out of which no larvae will hatch. The interruption of the flea life cycle results in a long-term, very effective flea control on the animal as well as in the environment

moussecasey
11-13-2008, 09:09 PM
Treat with Dimilin, two doses and it works great. Living in Canada, Dimilin is banned here, but where there is a will there is a way. They say the Program tablets are very good with only one treatment. If you order Program make sure they are tablets for an 80 lbs dog, one tablet per 1000 gal. Never got a chance to try the tablets as they came in too late but I'll keep them on the shelf, there good till 2011.
I wouldn't even waste my time treating again with "Anchors Away".
Treat with Dimilin, you will see a difference with the behavior of the Koi with-in a few days, it really works.

Dosage rates for Dimilin:

The recommended dosage rate is 0.03mg / litre (=0.11 mg / US gallon / 0.14 mg . Imp gallon). 76% of the treatment persists after one week. A second treatment 10 -14 days later should remove all stages of the parasite.

Good luck
Bill


i noticed that amazon sells program. is this what you're talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/Novartis-Program-Puppies-46-90-lbs-tablets/dp/B0009JQRKY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1226628304&sr=8-2
Novartis Program for Dogs & Puppies 46-90-lbs (White) (12 tablets, 409.8 mg each) by Novartis
Buy new: $89.99

kitfoxdrvr
11-14-2008, 10:26 AM
Gloria:

I have had only one (thankfully) infestation in the last three years, and treatment was totally successful with Anchors Away after two dosings a week apart. My temperature was warmer than yours (above 70 IIRC), but I would expect success at your temps over time as well. You would likely need a third dose as the life cycle of argulus slows with temperature, and molting would be less frequent. Dimilin does last for a while in the pond, but not indefinitely, thus the third dose for the third week. Because of the mechanism by which this pesticide works, I would doubt that a resistant strain has evolved and is attacking your pond, but you never know! I would try a third dose of the Anchors Away before attempting the Program.

More important than the argulus will be the subsequent infections that come afterwards, as you hinted were your concerns. My infestation resulted in several fish with ulcers and fin rot. I would make sure the pond is spotless (maybe a few <1 ppm PP doses) and I would even consider a round of Proform C after you clear the pond as a prophylactic. Thoughts from others?

Steve

kelathome
11-14-2008, 12:49 PM
In regards to the de-los...

quick question...

the description says to treat once a week for 4 weeks. 1/2 pound (treats 908 gal.)

Will 1/2 pound treat 908 gallons four times.... or would you need to buy 2 pounds to successfully treat 908 gallons?

Anyone know ?

GloriaL
11-14-2008, 04:15 PM
Thanks Steve. I did treat my pond before the first dose of Anchors Away with a dose of PP 1.5ppm. I did a 25%+ water change before the second dose so did not retreat with PP first, So far I have seen no ulcers. (I have an underwater camera so I am checking them out frequently even when I am not out at the pond.

Gloria:

I have had only one (thankfully) infestation in the last three years, and treatment was totally successful with Anchors Away after two dosings a week apart. My temperature was warmer than yours (above 70 IIRC), but I would expect success at your temps over time as well. You would likely need a third dose as the life cycle of argulus slows with temperature, and molting would be less frequent. Dimilin does last for a while in the pond, but not indefinitely, thus the third dose for the third week. Because of the mechanism by which this pesticide works, I would doubt that a resistant strain has evolved and is attacking your pond, but you never know! I would try a third dose of the Anchors Away before attempting the Program.

More important than the argulus will be the subsequent infections that come afterwards, as you hinted were your concerns. My infestation resulted in several fish with ulcers and fin rot. I would make sure the pond is spotless (maybe a few <1 ppm PP doses) and I would even consider a round of Proform C after you clear the pond as a prophylactic. Thoughts from others?

Steve

GloriaL
11-15-2008, 01:32 PM
bump

Roddy Conrad
11-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Gloria, buy yourself a 5 pound bag of 25% wettable Dimilin powder for $185 and have enough active Dimilin to kill fish lice for the rest of your lifetime, and have enough to also share with ponding friends.

The dose is 1 gram of the 25% active Dimilin powder per 1000 gallons, to be redosed once per week for a month to make absolutely sure the complete life cycle of the fish lice is completely eradicated. At this time of year, expect to take 2 to 3 weeks to kill out all the fish lice.

Let's take a 10,000 gallon pond for example. Dosing 10 grams of the 25% active Dimilin wettable powder costs you in active ingredient only $1 per 10 gram dose. Use Anchors Away and you need to spend $40 for the same amount of Dimilin active, $120 for three weeks of treatment when it should cost only $3 for that amount of active.

Since the Dimilin only prevents new lice from growing, and does not kill the adults, at the current cooler water temperatures you must treat weekly to keep enough Dimilin active in the water until all the adult lice die of old age. There is NO OTHER way I know to bring fish lice under effective control. Just keep the Dimilin in the water, redosing weekly, until they are all gone. Since the one gram per 1000 gallon dose of the 25% wettable powder is at least a factor of 50 below any safety problem for the koi, there is NO concern about buildup of the Dimilin concentration by the weekly redose. The 1 gram per 1000 gallon dose of the 25% wettable powder is a factor of 5 higher dose than is rated to keep any little lice from being able to develop a skeleton to grow up to adult lice size.

I buy the 5 pound bags of Dimilin from AquaCenter Inc in Louisiana. AquaCenter Inc is also my preferred source for 55 pound pails of potassium permanganate and 50 pound bags of sodium thiosulfate (heptahydrate). The 55 pound pails of PP cost around $130 for the 55 pound pail today, the 50 pound bags of sodium thiosulfate are $45 today.

click up their web site at:

Aquacenterinc.com

Click on chemicals on their home page, scroll down the list and you will find 5 pounds of Dimilin 25% wettable powder for $190 today.

You will have to send them some paperwork like I did, detailing the product will not be used on any food fish.

GoldieGirl
11-16-2008, 05:00 PM
"Aquaculture Inc in Louisiana"

Do they have a website, Roddy? Couldn't find anything when I Googled it.

Thanks.

Roddy Conrad
11-16-2008, 05:10 PM
I corrected the post, it is

aquacenterinc.com

click on chemicals on the home page, surf down and find 5 pounds of 25&#37; wettable Dimilin for $190 (plus actual shipping cost plus $25 hazmat shipping fee), or a 55 pound pail of PP for $130, or a 50 pound bag of sodium thiosulfate for $45, for example.

Nice folks, lovely to do business with from my long experience buying nearly all my pond chemicals from them for the last 8 years.

CHICHI
11-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Hi Guys :D: ..

The impetus is more than ever imperative for us to be able to access a reliable source of Chemicals that will eradicate effectively the Critters we are confronted with in our systems on a day to day basis ..

Not only are we up against persistent Lurgy resistence to SALT to name just one - but Lurgy Mutations too ..


Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet, 1876, a fresh-water member of the Ophryoglenidae, and other "Ich-like" parasites of fresh-water fishes, appear to be limited in distribution and infectivity by the temperature tolerances of their hosts. Because of the widespread distribution of the parasite in aquaria, hatcheries, and rearing ponds, in tropical and temperate regions, probably multiple physiological races exist, perhaps even several separate species (possibly in more than one genus

from this link = http://www.jstor.org/pss/3225383?cookieSet=1

I should know having been plagued by one such Mutation for over a year ..

Peter Waddington (in the recent Link) - Duncan - Roddy have all less than Recommended the OTC Pre-mix preparations available as "Pond treatments" making it Vital for us as Fish Keepers to be able to source these appropriate chemicals elsewhere ..

GloriaL
11-16-2008, 07:07 PM
Roddy, Thanks a bunch! I will order the 25% Dimilin tomorrow, probably with some more goodies I found! I have enough Anchors away to do the next dose but after that it will be the straight 25% Dimilin. Do you need any kind of license to order the Dimilin?

kitfoxdrvr
11-16-2008, 09:09 PM
Gloria:

If you do buy it, I would love to participate in taking some off of your hands! It sounds like this purchase could be several lifetime's supply, so I will buy half a pound or so! Let me/us know if you are considering that!

Steve

PS, when you are scanning the fish with you camera, watch for any tattering of fins; fin rot affected one of my fish. But you are a step ahead of me, you cleaned your water up BEFORE you saw any secondary infections.

nmtsaki
11-16-2008, 10:02 PM
sounds like a group buy project to me!

cindy
11-17-2008, 10:46 AM
here's a louse pic. Its a shimmy that moves

CHICHI
11-17-2008, 11:20 AM
Argulus Up Close and Personal - courtesy of a Friend not had the pleasure of these Beasties myself yet Thank God :eek1: still trying to Eradicate the Mutated ICH from Hell :eek1:

moussecasey
11-17-2008, 11:20 AM
sounds like a group buy project to me!

dito :yes: