View Full Version : concernd about ph
JMorris271
07-18-2010, 03:01 PM
I have a pond that is filtered with 2 bead filters. My PH is reading 9.1. Way to high I know.
Is there any way to lower ph besides water change ?
Thanks
Noahsnana
07-18-2010, 03:21 PM
When are you checking PH and is it stable/always at this number?
JMorris271
07-18-2010, 05:52 PM
Checked it about 3 in the afternoon. Usually runs about 8.5 at that time.
mtsklar
07-18-2010, 05:56 PM
Please describe you pond a little more.
Do you have rocks in it. If so are they basaltic, limestone, granite?
Does your pond have any waterfalls or streams.
What kind of aeration do you have.
Matt
stephen
07-18-2010, 05:59 PM
I have a pond that is filtered with 2 bead filters. My PH is reading 9.1. This seems alittle high.
Is there any way to lower ph besides water change ?
Thanks
There are ways (Reverse Osmosis, acid injection, carbon dioxide injection, less daytime aeration, etc) but may not be worth the money or effort. Your particulat pH prolly has no detrimental effects on the health of your koi IMO as long as the daily swing is not too significant.
stephen
07-18-2010, 06:31 PM
J
I just saw your post on another thread about your water turning green. That is another animal. Check your pH at 4-5 AM to determine the significant shift that is prolly occuring due to photosynthesis activity.
In this situation I would advise to increase aeration immensely during the dark hours and decrease during daylight. The green water algae will suck the oxygen out of the water during darkness and super saturate it with O2 during the day. Conversely; during darkness the green water will release carbon dioxide (lowering the pH) and consume it during daylight (raising the pH)
:yes:
jeff reiter
07-18-2010, 09:42 PM
okay, i'm going to get pilloried by the folks on this website, so line up and take your best shot. yes, i raise and lower my ph. the "lower" will be intensely criticized because it is "chasing ph". that is a fair criticism. check your tap water or well water, whatever you use, and see what your starting ph is. also make sure your test kit is fresh and accurate. if you have a gunnite or concrete pond that is not sealed, your ph will always be high. if you have limestone rocks in your pond, same story, and in those cases you probably cannot drop your ph; however, those types of ponds usually rise to about 8.4 and hold. yours is higher for some other reason, and someone on this website can probably tell you why.
that said, 9.1 ph is too high, in my opinion, and there should be a simple scientific explanation for it. ph in ponds normally drop because of the effect of bacteria on the mineral balance of the water. if your local water is that high or higher, the pond should come down a bit over time and water changes will raise it. there are two good koi clubs in your state, charleston and spartanburg/greenviille, and they have members who can tell you more about your local situation. i'm just up the road from you in Charlotte and would be glad to talk to you about it.
the natural ph of a koi's blood serum is 7.4, so a higher ph can put stress on the fish. supposedly high ph causes split fins, but i can't validate that. higher ph makes ammonia more toxic. in water at 9.1, any ammonia is 10 times more toxic than the same water at 8.1 and 100 times more toxic than the same water at 7.1. i personally prefer water at 7.2 to 7.4.
lowering ph involves adding an acid to increase the hydrogen ions in the water. ph is shorthand for "potential for hydrogen". the lower the number the higher the potential for hydrogen ions. the acid of choice is hydrochloric acid, muratic acid at lowe's. yes this is an acid with chlorine in it; however, this is the preferred acid, and at the concentrations we need to use, it is safe for your fish. another that is used is vinegar, ascetic acid, and it is not recommended because it is supposed to produce toxic byproducts. i use it anyway and have never had a problem, but then that is my personal choice. if you use hydrochloric acid, dilute it first by adding one cup of acid to two gallons of water. then add a cup or so of the diluted product to a two gallon bucket of pond water, mix in the pond, wait for the pond to cycle once, and test again. for vinegar, dilute it in half and do the same thing. but before you drop the ph, determine what your natural value is first by testing the local water. many municipalities target their ph for 8.0 coming out of the tap. ours comes out at around 7.5 the last time i checked, but there are a couple of local municipalities that use the higher number. your water company should have just published their clean water act data and will tell you their target ph along with other numbers. as for the chlorine ions in the acid, if you have a waterfall, two times over the waterfall, and the chlorine gases off.
absolutely, positively DO NOT use household bleach to lower ph. household bleach is not made from hydrochloric acid; it is made from a solution of sodium hypochlorite, a different and far more reactive form of chlorine. it will damage their gills, and you won't know it.
cindy
07-18-2010, 09:45 PM
didn't read Jeff's after he said in the first sentence, he lowered his ph. Don't EVER lower your ph.
Do you have a kh test kit? If you have a stable kh, your ph shouldn't flunctuate.
stephen
07-18-2010, 10:20 PM
okay, i'm going to get pilloried by the folks on this website, so line up and take your best shot. yes, i raise and lower my ph. the "lower" will be intensely criticized because it is "chasing ph". that is a fair criticism. check your tap water or well water, whatever you use, and see what your starting ph is. also make sure your test kit is fresh and accurate. if you have a gunnite or concrete pond that is not sealed, your ph will always be high. if you have limestone rocks in your pond, same story, and in those cases you probably cannot drop your ph; however, those types of ponds usually rise to about 8.4 and hold. yours is higher for some other reason, and someone on this website can probably tell you why.
that said, 9.1 ph is too high, in my opinion, and there should be a simple scientific explanation for it. ph in ponds normally drop because of the effect of bacteria on the mineral balance of the water. if your local water is that high or higher, the pond should come down a bit over time and water changes will raise it. there are two good koi clubs in your state, charleston and spartanburg/greenviille, and they have members who can tell you more about your local situation. i'm just up the road from you in Charlotte and would be glad to talk to you about it.
the natural ph of a koi's blood serum is 7.4, so a higher ph can put stress on the fish. supposedly high ph causes split fins, but i can't validate that. higher ph makes ammonia more toxic. in water at 9.1, any ammonia is 10 times more toxic than the same water at 8.1 and 100 times more toxic than the same water at 7.1. i personally prefer water at 7.2 to 7.4.
lowering ph involves adding an acid to increase the hydrogen ions in the water. ph is shorthand for "potential for hydrogen". the lower the number the higher the potential for hydrogen ions. the acid of choice is hydrochloric acid, muratic acid at lowe's. yes this is an acid with chlorine in it; however, this is the preferred acid, and at the concentrations we need to use, it is safe for your fish. another that is used is vinegar, ascetic acid, and it is not recommended because it is supposed to produce toxic byproducts. i use it anyway and have never had a problem, but then that is my personal choice. if you use hydrochloric acid, dilute it first by adding one cup of acid to two gallons of water. then add a cup or so of the diluted product to a two gallon bucket of pond water, mix in the pond, wait for the pond to cycle once, and test again. for vinegar, dilute it in half and do the same thing. but before you drop the ph, determine what your natural value is first by testing the local water. many municipalities target their ph for 8.0 coming out of the tap. ours comes out at around 7.5 the last time i checked, but there are a couple of local municipalities that use the higher number. your water company should have just published their clean water act data and will tell you their target ph along with other numbers. as for the chlorine ions in the acid, if you have a waterfall, two times over the waterfall, and the chlorine gases off.
absolutely, positively DO NOT use household bleach to lower ph. household bleach is not made from hydrochloric acid; it is made from a solution of sodium hypochlorite, a different and far more reactive form of chlorine. it will damage their gills, and you won't know it.
Sorry Jeff but with all due respect you are apparently a novice at lowering pH and I surely don't want to sound condescending.
The truth of the matter is that pH is usually best left alone unless you have extremely high quality gosanke that may require lower pH for outstanding beni.
Using acid or carbon dioxide injection in a small aquarium may work if well monitored. But in a larger koi pond, IMO the only appropriate method of lowering pH is by reverse osmosis. I have been using that for 7-8 years now. The unit in pic 1 & 2 below outputs 8000 gpd of product water. Make no doubt about it, pH stability is the key and most important thing.
The higher pH of 9.1 (compared to the normal 8.5 ppm) in this particular pond is due to the photosynthesis activity which results in an upward swing when taken at 3 pm but will prolly be much less if measured at 4-5 AM.
It is true that higher pH makes the ammonia more toxic but I think in an established pond ammonia should not be a factor needing consideration in most situations. If it it, then the ammonia should be addressed and not the pH.
birdman
07-18-2010, 10:27 PM
Listen to Steve. What is your PH early am? i bet it's considerably lower than late afternoon. Your green water is most likely causing a large PH swing from morning to afternoon. This can kill your fish. 1st thing you need to do is add more UV to get rid of the green water, and PH swings. Then we can see where the PH settles out and go from there.
Graham
07-19-2010, 09:54 AM
okay, i'm going to get pilloried by the folks on this website, so line up and take your best shot. yes, i raise and lower my ph. the "lower" will be intensely criticized because it is "chasing ph". that is a fair criticism. check your tap water or well water, whatever you use, and see what your starting ph is. also make sure your test kit is fresh and accurate. if you have a gunnite or concrete pond that is not sealed, your ph will always be high. if you have limestone rocks in your pond, same story, and in those cases you probably cannot drop your ph; however, those types of ponds usually rise to about 8.4 and hold. yours is higher for some other reason, and someone on this website can probably tell you why.
that said, 9.1 ph is too high, in my opinion, and there should be a simple scientific explanation for it. ph in ponds normally drop because of the effect of bacteria on the mineral balance of the water. if your local water is that high or higher, the pond should come down a bit over time and water changes will raise it. there are two good koi clubs in your state, charleston and spartanburg/greenviille, and they have members who can tell you more about your local situation. i'm just up the road from you in Charlotte and would be glad to talk to you about it.
the natural ph of a koi's blood serum is 7.4, so a higher ph can put stress on the fish. supposedly high ph causes split fins, but i can't validate that. higher ph makes ammonia more toxic. in water at 9.1, any ammonia is 10 times more toxic than the same water at 8.1 and 100 times more toxic than the same water at 7.1. i personally prefer water at 7.2 to 7.4.
lowering ph involves adding an acid to increase the hydrogen ions in the water. ph is shorthand for "potential for hydrogen". the lower the number the higher the potential for hydrogen ions. the acid of choice is hydrochloric acid, muratic acid at lowe's. yes this is an acid with chlorine in it; however, this is the preferred acid, and at the concentrations we need to use, it is safe for your fish. another that is used is vinegar, ascetic acid, and it is not recommended because it is supposed to produce toxic byproducts. i use it anyway and have never had a problem, but then that is my personal choice. if you use hydrochloric acid, dilute it first by adding one cup of acid to two gallons of water. then add a cup or so of the diluted product to a two gallon bucket of pond water, mix in the pond, wait for the pond to cycle once, and test again. for vinegar, dilute it in half and do the same thing. but before you drop the ph, determine what your natural value is first by testing the local water. many municipalities target their ph for 8.0 coming out of the tap. ours comes out at around 7.5 the last time i checked, but there are a couple of local municipalities that use the higher number. your water company should have just published their clean water act data and will tell you their target ph along with other numbers. as for the chlorine ions in the acid, if you have a waterfall, two times over the waterfall, and the chlorine gases off.
absolutely, positively DO NOT use household bleach to lower ph. household bleach is not made from hydrochloric acid; it is made from a solution of sodium hypochlorite, a different and far more reactive form of chlorine. it will damage their gills, and you won't know it.
Thats really good Jeff...maybe you should have said something about the KH and how it reacts to that acid. What would you tell this person when they crash out the pH because you didn't mention this.....:rolleyes: BTW pH is potential of hydrogen or just potential hydrogen
JM don't listen to this advice. This is not something that needs to be done or should be done. As Steve mentione the algae is probably causing the swing. Have you checked the KH of your water?
jeff reiter
07-19-2010, 10:56 AM
i'm a never say never kind of thinker. to simply say never do it flies in the face of reason and sounds like that old doctor joke about the guy who says " my arm hurts when i lift it!" and the doctor replies "well, don't do that!" with all due respect, it's obvious we are agreeing to disagree. ph over 9.0 needs attention, and the underlying problem needs to be addressed. no pond with koi will remain at 9.1 without an agent in existence to drive it up. the natural condition of a pond will drive ph down.
the biggest issue is to not adjust ph quickly; never more than 0.5 in a period of time like 8 to 24 hours, because ph change is a proven koi stressor. the second issue is to pin down why this pond is above 9.1, and the most common reason is an uncured or unsealed concrete structure. in the interim while solving the underlying problem, he can diligently maintain a ph in an acceptable range and fix the problem. there is always a fix. but saying don't do that is a continued problem and not a solution.
there is plenty of evidence that ph adjustment is something that can be done safely in any direction if the situation justifies it. the big question for this hobbyist is why is my ph high and not how do i lower it, but in the meantime, he can lower it.
Graham
07-19-2010, 12:20 PM
You still don't get it:rolleyes:. and you still haven't mentioned anything about the KH. The average ponder doesn't understand water quality/chemistry and the buffering ability of that water....I'm not even sure you do.
As I've said before, for you to come along and tell a hobbyist to dump an acid into thier pond with out knowing thier abilities or the parameters of thier water is wrong!. Then did it cross your mind that maybe the green water that they're experiencing is using all the CO2 up since they may have really low KH and and with all the O2 that it's producing is driving the pH up over 9.
There have been many ponders over the years around here that have had solid pH's at 9.0 or over without any ill affects to thier fish.
Following your advice would probably crash out the pH and whatever KH that might be around, killing thier fish. You're trying to tell a ponder to fix a symptom before you even know what the problem is...bad advice!
:cool3:
cindy
07-19-2010, 12:32 PM
back to the pond and ph. Do you have kh test kit? If not get one, it is the single test kit every ponder should have.
If the kh is low, it allows the ph to flunctuate. If you have zero ammonia with low kh (total alkalinity) you can do water changes and/or add baking soda to bring your numbers up. It will also help to bring the ph down.
Joey S
07-19-2010, 01:05 PM
There is a wonderful thread on high pH that Gloria L was experiencing where Roddy to great pains in many posts to find and fix the problem. I would never add acid or even vinegar (a dilute acid) to fix high pH. That would be a temporary fix that could have disastrous effects on the entire ecology and balance in a pond, let alone on the fish.
As said, I would test pH early am and late afternoon and compare. Also test the KH. There might be some very simple solutions to the problem. I have high pH source water and use Baking Soda with water changes to keep the KH up, lower the pH and keep it stable.
By the way, baking soda will limit upper end of the pH to 8.3 in most cases.
stephen
07-19-2010, 06:28 PM
In a green water situation with low alkalinity, the pH swings will be immense and extremely dangerous.
Green water with an alkalinity of 120 ppm can still be expected to swing well over 1 point in a 24 hour period. For example, the pH in some of my fry tanks (KH 120 ppm) will swing between 8 -9.2 in a 24 hour period.
Graham
07-19-2010, 07:31 PM
**** Stephen get out the Muriatic Acid and nuke it...................;):D::yahoo:
birdman
07-19-2010, 10:08 PM
Did you test your PH this am?
Jaysun17
07-20-2010, 12:49 PM
Reading this thread and the one I posted has been very helpful, I have a UV filter running already and my water is fairly clear. I also have a barley raft in the pond that was introduced about a week ago. String algae is minimal, I did use algaefix to rid the pond of string algae about a week ago as well. My water lettuce and hyacinth are wilting and turning yellow. Probably affected by the algaefix. I have a second uv filter that I am going to turn on to clear the water further in hopes that the floating algae will be eliminated completely. I have a waterfall with the water splashing off bluestone but that's the only place stone should affect the pond. Also have a large juniper bush over hanging the pond that definitely drops sheds when birds etc. shake it. I know I'm identifying my own problems right now,lol but perhaps someone can benefit by noticing that they may be making the same mistakes. My ph is 9.0 kh 166 in the pond with a source of 7.5 and 179kh
JMorris271
07-20-2010, 09:48 PM
Sorry I havent gotten back sooner but have been split ithree ways between the pond, work, and the heat;
I can find no external factors that would cause a 9.7 reading for PH
My GH reads 25
KH reads 0
Source water is 5.3
The coping is out of the pond and is flagstone.
I have 2 vortex fillters that are 200 gals each feeding 2 Bead filters in a 4800 ,liner pond
No2 and No 3 are 0
Very very small amt of ammonia.
No runoff has occured that we have seen and I check.
The koi can be seen swimming around sometimes but moving rapidly
Thats pretty much all I know at this time.
Thanks for everyones input.
To , make matters worse I have just had 3 new koi shipped to me. Thankfully, a friend has an unused tank set up and is letting me use it to do the quarentine .
Graham
07-20-2010, 11:16 PM
There's no mystery here...it's pretty simple
My GH reads 25
KH reads 0
Source water is 5.3
Your water has no buffering ability and the algae cycle is pushing your pH all over the place. I'm surprised you don't have dead fish with those numbers. Start adding baking soda every day to slowly raise the pH/KH up into the 7.2 range with a KH of about 80>100ppm. Increase the pH by about 0.2 >0.3 per day
JMorris271
07-20-2010, 11:38 PM
Just added 3 lbs of Baking Soda to see how that helps.
To tell you tne truth, I don't know how to settle on the diosage of the BS.
.
I will check the KH in the AM and post.
JMorris271
07-20-2010, 11:51 PM
Thanks everyone for your help in working this out. KP is so great!:yes:
JMorris271
07-21-2010, 08:28 AM
I took readings at 4:30 this morning. UGH
PH 8.8
KH 120
GH 25
Sure was a lot of foam on top of the pond but water was slightly clearer
The swing is unnerving though
jeff reiter
07-21-2010, 08:30 AM
the biggest issue with ph is a large swing in a short period of time. keep the change below .5 per day and you will be fine. my pond is about 4000 gallons, and i use a pound to move the ph about 0.2. if the fish aren't showing signs of emergent need, you are fine, but i'd slow down the change rate. koi are in their element between 6.5 and 9.5 with a blood ph of 7.4. evidence of an excessive swing is typically flashing by several or all fish, not including the feeding period.
Roddy Conrad
07-21-2010, 08:48 AM
Sorry I havent gotten back sooner but have been split ithree ways between the pond, work, and the heat;
I can find no external factors that would cause a 9.7 reading for PH
My GH reads 25
KH reads 0
Source water is 5.3
The coping is out of the pond and is flagstone.
I have 2 vortex fillters that are 200 gals each feeding 2 Bead filters in a 4800 ,liner pond
No2 and No 3 are 0
Very very small amt of ammonia.
No runoff has occured that we have seen and I check.
The koi can be seen swimming around sometimes but moving rapidly
Thats pretty much all I know at this time.
Thanks for everyones input.
To , make matters worse I have just had 3 new koi shipped to me. Thankfully, a friend has an unused tank set up and is letting me use it to do the quarentine .
There are two causes of the high pH with these measured values.
The KH is too low as others said, and needs baking soda addition to stabilize pH at a better value.
But the GH is way too low for acceptable pH control. GH is a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium. When there is enough dissolved calcium and magnesium, AND when the KH is in an acceptable range (meaning between 80 and 300 ppm), if the pH drifts above 8.5, the calcium and magnesium will precipitate the carbonate ions that are causing the high pH and drop the pH value.
So if you want the pH to stay below the 9 value you have measured:
1. Get the KH into the 80 to 300 ppm range by adding two pounds of baking soda per 1000 gallons of pond water.
2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.
Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.
JMorris271
07-21-2010, 09:07 AM
Thanks Roddy. Can you get the calcium chloride flake at most chemical stores?
Roddy Conrad
07-21-2010, 10:24 AM
Calcium chloride flake is widely available in Charleston, WV for a variety of reasons.
Swimming pool stores carry it in 50 pound bags for increasing the hardness of swimming pools, since the local water is so soft the pH of swimming pools can go sky high without the addition of some calcium chloride flake.
Farm stores, Lowes, and Home Depot carry it in winter months since it is the no 1 product to melt snow and ice in driveways and walkways - the calcium chloride flake melts ice at a lower temperature than sodium chloride, the calcium chloride won't tear up the concrete, the calcium chloride does not damage plants. The farm stores and swimming pool stores stock it year round, Lowes, Walmart, and Home Depot stock it in Fall and Winter months for the ice melting purpose.
The usual price range locally is between $10 and $20 per 50 pound bag for calcium chloride flake.
It it is not available locally in Columbia, SC, the freight to bring it in will cost more than the material.
Obviously you may not need a 50 pound bag for ponding, but if you have it and experience a rare ice storm in Columbia, SC, then you will have what you need to melt ice on your sidewalks around your house.
I am sometimes in Columbia, SC, visiting one of my chemical tolling suppliers (Weylchem). Lovely place....
cindy
07-21-2010, 11:15 AM
There are two causes of the high pH with these measured values.
The KH is too low as others said, and needs baking soda addition to stabilize pH at a better value.
But the GH is way too low for acceptable pH control. GH is a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium. When there is enough dissolved calcium and magnesium, AND when the KH is in an acceptable range (meaning between 80 and 300 ppm), if the pH drifts above 8.5, the calcium and magnesium will precipitate the carbonate ions that are causing the high pH and drop the pH value.
So if you want the pH to stay below the 9 value you have measured:
1. Get the KH into the 80 to 300 ppm range by adding two pounds of baking soda per 1000 gallons of pond water.
2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.
Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.
Thanks Roddy, that was my stumper for the am. I couldn't understand the ph not stabilizing at 8.3. We have extremely hard water here so never dealt with it. Question how high would the ph go with soft water?
Roddy Conrad
07-21-2010, 01:04 PM
Thanks Roddy, that was my stumper for the am. I couldn't understand the ph not stabilizing at 8.3. We have extremely hard water here so never dealt with it. Question how high would the ph go with soft water?
The pH typically reaches the 11 to 12 range when the GH and KH are so low. There is nothing to stabilize pH in the absence of reasonable values of both KH and GH.
There seems to be a big push for getting rid of GH by softening the water or using reverse osmosis to get really low TDS (meaning low salts as measured by conductivity). One of many problems with low TDS is inadequate GH to stabilize the pH.
There are many ponders who run their ponds at pH values of 10 or so because that is what their water chemistry gives them. I don't like pH values that high for keeping koi. pH values above 10 is okay for goldfish and golden orfes, but it is hard on koi.
cindy
07-21-2010, 01:07 PM
thank you, printing this off for my notes. Sometimes my old brain doesn't retain w/out notes.
davidjensen
07-21-2010, 05:44 PM
If you have been able to keep a stable PH near 8.3 by keeping a stable KH of over 140 is it still needed to boost the GH? My GH usually is near 40 but I add BS to boost my KH to 140+. Also is there any info about KH swings? How long should it take to boost the KH from 80 to 140 as an example?
JMorris271
07-21-2010, 06:41 PM
Roddy.
We usually get zip when it comes to show or ice here. Only during a blue moon do we have it.
I did find the Calcium Chloride Flakes at the Chemical Store in Cayce SC. The have the tablets and the flakes but as you said
not cheap. I will pick it up in the am.
Thankyou so much for your help to so many all over .
Roddy Conrad
07-21-2010, 09:09 PM
If you have been able to keep a stable PH near 8.3 by keeping a stable KH of over 140 is it still needed to boost the GH? My GH usually is near 40 but I add BS to boost my KH to 140+. Also is there any info about KH swings? How long should it take to boost the KH from 80 to 140 as an example?
If the KH is over 140 and the algae is under excellent control, the pH will usually stay stable around 8.3. But if the algae gets out of control even with a high KH from baking soda, the pH will shoot up to 10 to 11 range unless GH is also in the 100 to 250 range. Also, in the situation of high KH and uncontrolled algae, the GH will be rapidly consumed and need replacement.
JMorris271
07-21-2010, 09:41 PM
I just did some testing today usiing the drops instead of the strip test method for the KH and GH.
Dr Fishwells brand for aquariums is the only thing we have around here. The dang box was marked 75% off for some reason.
I don't know why but it was all I could find.
PH 9.61
KH 6 drops to turn . 107.4
GH I added 24 drops and the test tube stayed the same pee color.(sorry for that but it describes it best) Whats going on here. The test conversion chart only goes to 12 drops.
I was hoping my UV part would be here today but UPS tracking says Friday.
Has anyone heard of Flagstone leaching and causing high PH? I have had the same coping for 2 yrs and some folks are suggesting that it IS the rock,
Thoughts please.
Thanks a heap!
birdman
07-21-2010, 10:20 PM
Do you have a PetsMart or Petco. Try and find the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits. their pretty good.
jeff reiter
07-21-2010, 10:29 PM
take a sample of the stone and crush it into a fine powder. an ounce will do. use your tap water - a cup or two is fine. test the water for ph first for your baseline. put the powdered stone in the water and heat to a boil and stir for a couple of minutes. let it cool and test for ph. if the ph does not change or goes down, you have ruled out the stone. if the ph goes up, then its possible the stone is the answer.
the bottom line is that your chemistry says something is changing your ph, and you have a working hypothesis that its the stone. there may be other possibilities, and here are some thoughts. the other folks on this thread can confirm or deny. if your pond is well maintained and clean, then its something in the structure or something getting into it from outside the pond. you might even take a soil sample next to the pond and see what the ph is for that material. with those chemical readings, water ph doesn't go up in a pond. as for kh, you put 3 pounds of baking soda in the water yesterday, right? i would have expected that much baking soda to draw the ph down toward 8.4. with your fish load and a clean pond, the carbonate doesn't get consumed that fast by the biofilter or alga on the walls.
i assume your fish remain healthy and are doing well in this process of analysis? as long as they are okay we can work through this with you.
cindy
07-21-2010, 11:46 PM
need to get the gh up
2. Get the GH in the 100 to 250 ppm range by adding one pound of calcium chloride flake (which is calcium chloride dihydrate, with 77% calcium chloride content, 23% water) per 1000 gallons of water. You may want to also add a pound of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfuate heptahydrate) per 1000 gallons of pond water for sufficient dissolved magnesium also.
Taking those two actions should stablize pH at a value of 8.3, which is ideal for 99% of ponders.
JMorris271
07-22-2010, 08:54 AM
Good suggestiion on testing the crushed stone. I can see what the koi are doing or look like right now. I did seal the exposed cement on the falls with PL after the cure.
I am picking up the chems to try to get the GH up today.
Yes. I did put 3 lbs of BS in yesterday.
Thanks for work all of the input from everyone. I really do need help and so do my koi.
Roddy Conrad
07-22-2010, 09:02 AM
It is routine for pH to get up to the 9 to 10 range when algae is out of control and GH is low. Hopefully the test kit for GH is not working and GH is low, if so, adding calcium chloride flake will drop the pH in a day or two.
Please be aware as the calcium chloride flake is added, the water "should" turn into a milky white appearance. If that happens, the pH is coming under control, because the way calcium chloride drops pH is to precipitate as calcium carbonate, removing carbonate ions. So a milky appearance of the pond for certainly the first day, and perhaps for several days, confirms the issue was low GH and that the pH should be dropping to the preferred range.
cindy
07-22-2010, 09:50 AM
Roddy can you overdose with calcium chloride?
Roddy Conrad
07-22-2010, 01:16 PM
If you overdose with calcium chloride, in a month or two some of your kohaku koi may develop black sumi spots if the breeding was done poorly.
Otherwise, nothing will occur with a calcium chloride overdose except for perhaps a "bathtub ring" around the pond at the water interface level from deposits of white calcium carbonate.
I prefer a GH level in the 150 to 250 ppm range to help stabilize pH, some koi ponders with show koi, particularly kohaku, prefer GH in the 60 to 80 ppm range.
My supply water is missing any measurable GH. A ponder friend of mine near Ashville, NC, has a mud pond that has no measurable GH, and breeds and sells koi. His description of koi taken from the mud pond and carried to the filtered pond with proper GH level is that the koi develop the missing sumi from the absence of GH in hours after being transferred from the mud pond to the filtered show sale pond at his house.
cindy
07-22-2010, 05:18 PM
:thankyou:
JMorris271
07-22-2010, 06:27 PM
The algea has dropped back quite alot since yesterday. I can see the koi. No stress to be seen on their fins or scales. Swimming and eating fine,though I didn't give them alot.
I found Calcium Chloride in granular form only here. Is that ok to use unstead of the flake?
Graham
07-22-2010, 07:17 PM
yes it's fine to use and please follow the recipe that Roddy gave you...this is 100% chemistry/GH/KH related and has nothing to do with the stone. Flagstone is generally a type of sand stone and is inert...forget about it and fis the water.
G
JMorris271
07-22-2010, 08:35 PM
Thanks for the clarification Graham. I'll pick up the CC tomorrow. Epsom salt is already in.
I wish you had said something about the flagstone test this morning.
Today,I shelled out $2.30 for a 5 gal bucket at Lowes :fmouth:
JMorris271
07-23-2010, 07:41 PM
I have been waiting so anxiously toi get a replacement UV sleave so I can get the UV going again. It came today directly from the factory. I am so excited!
I pull the bulb out of the package and look at it. My heart is crushed.
The dang bottom of the quartz sleave is larger than the base of the UV chamber and won't fit.
I have called the dealer and they are sending a replacement but still..................#########!
Today I got the Calcium chloried and got it in the water,
Haven't taken measurments yet because it is so darn hot!
My koi are still swimming fine and eating ok.
After each time I put in the BS, I am seeing a very large amount of phoam. What causes that?
Joey S
07-23-2010, 08:11 PM
After each time I put in the BS, I am seeing a very large amount of phoam. What causes that? DOCS...
Roddy Conrad
07-23-2010, 10:26 PM
The algea has dropped back quite alot since yesterday. I can see the koi. No stress to be seen on their fins or scales. Swimming and eating fine,though I didn't give them alot.
I found Calcium Chloride in granular form only here. Is that ok to use unstead of the flake?
Granular form is fine. Flake only means it is the dihydrate, it does not mean the particles are flakes. Calcium chloride flake MAY be granular....
JMorris271
07-26-2010, 10:50 PM
After each time I put in the BS, I am seeing a very large amount of phoam. What causes that? DOCS...
Do I ever have the DOCs. Bubbles all over the pond.
I just added another 7 lbs of Calcium Chloride and another 3lbs of BS
My Ph is reading 8.6. I cant get a GH reading because the kit I have doesnt work but I have one on order.k.:rolleyes: Nobody in this town knows what General Hardness is.
Water looks so much better now. Koi are swimming and eating normally. Still no UV online yet. I got the Phoam Fractionator online this week. Seems to be working fine. Thanks Ethan
A shot of my pond in the rain from the house.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Foam%20Fract/IMG_1648.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Foam%20Fract/IMG_1649.jpg
I built a phoam Praxionator as per Ethans spelling and directions. Expensive PVC,This is me loading the thing up with bio balls. I bought about 5 time more than I needeed;)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Foam%20Fract/IMG_1652.jpg
It works great! Best bucks I have spent in a long time!:yes:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Foam%20Fract/IMG_1662.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e184/JMorris271/Foam%20Fract/IMG_1667.jpg
If I get get the UV back online, things will be fine thanks to all the good help I have gotten here.:yes:
Joey S
07-26-2010, 11:09 PM
Glad to hear things are improving. Keep us posted. That's one heck of a FF and quite a nice pond.
birdman
07-26-2010, 11:18 PM
Good to hear things are going better.
JMorris271
07-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks Joey and Steve.
I took my readings today and feel pretty good about them Also I can see my bottom drains clearly now. The koi are swimming fine. and seem happy to see daylight and no lightning. :yes:
Measured a very small amt of Ammonia
PH 8.4
KH 73
No ORP reading
Still waiting for the GH test kit to get here.
Also, Cant wait to put my new koi in quaranitne in the main pond! They seem to be doing fine.
My question:
I am beginning to see more sting algea forming. I am concerned about doing a Sodium Percarbonate treatment with the Calcium Sulfate
Would there be any problems with this combination?
Thanks so much.
stephen
07-28-2010, 09:44 PM
:yahoo::yahoo:
Roddy Conrad
07-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Sodium percarbonate does not react with magnesium sulfate. However, as the sodium percarbonate hydrolyzes to product sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, both the magnesium and the calciuim ions will precipitate the carbonate from the sodium percarbonate hydrolysis and remove it from the pond to drop the pH, which is driven up by sodium percarbonate use.
That means in simple language, YES, the calcium chloride flake and Epsom salt do react with the sodium percarbonate, but that is a GOOD thing because the reaction drops the pH to the right range while it does not interfere with the sodium percarbonate destroying the algae.
JMorris271
07-28-2010, 10:13 PM
Kudo'l to you Roddy. Thankyou sir!
cindy
06-14-2011, 04:45 PM
bump