Ammonia Levels in fish ponds and shipping bags

[Roddy Conrad]

Brady brought me 5 new koi from his fish farm near Charlotte, NC, yesterday on my 65th birthday, a little deal Lizzie had arranged.

When Brady started to dump the shipping bags, I told him to leave them there, I wanted to check the actual ammonia levels in the shipping bags before dumping the water.

I measured the ammonia level on two independent test kits, specifically the Lamotte fish farm test kit, and the Hanna colorimeter test procedure. Both were off the top of the scale as I expected, the top of each scale is 3 ppm. So I did the chemist 5 to 1 dilution of the sample and retested, the 5 to 1 dilution tested at 2 ppm on both test procedures, meaning the ammonia in the bag was at 10 ppm.

I tested the pH on a Hanna colorimeter test procedure, the value was 6.7, and that agreed approximately with the Lamotte pH test procedure.

So the fish were bagged at 7 AM at Brady's farm, taken out of the bag at 2:30 PM at my house, and had an ammonia bath that built to 10 ppm in that shipping procedure. And the pH dropped to 6.7 as the koi exhaled Carbon dioxide to drop the pH in the shipping bag.

The toxicity literature for fish and ammonia levels for carp, meaning in our instance koi, indicate it takes 4 ppm ammonia levels at a pH of 8 4 days to start killing off the koi. But at a pH of 6.7 in a shipping bag 10 ppm for a half day is no big deal.

What is the point of the thread? While we don't want to see measurable levels of ammonia in our koi ponds, the fish will live through them if the ammonia levels are not chronically there long term. There is no reason to panic and do huge water changes at ammonia levels in the 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm range. Okay, you may want to think about spending some money on ammonia binders when the ammonia is in the 1 to 5 ppm range during a new filtration system cycle of a new pond or quarantine tank, chemically binding the ammonia makes the water better for the fish.

In my filtration learning days, when I ran a huge fish load on our indoor koi pond, I measured the ammonia level to be in the 0.2 ppm range for one 15 month period continuously. None of the fish got sick, I did not use an ammonia binder.

The only point of the thread is to put up REAL data so ponders do not hit the panic button when they measure levels of ammonia in their ponds at the 0.25 ppm level.

Discussion?

[savannahrobinson]

Happy Birthday Roddy!

That's good data! But...

The reason to panic when you have detectable ammonia levels in a pond is that it takes so long to ramp up a filter to deal with it. Its like treating an infection at the first sign of fever... to use a medical analogy. You want to catch it early, because the "cure" can take a long time to implement.
:)

[koi kichi]

What level do you think they can handle with nitrites when the pond is cycling without causing damage?

[Roddy Conrad]

With salt in the 0.2% to 0.5% range, I have seen populations of koi do fine for months at a time at nitrites that continuously measured over 10 ppm in koi display ponds in local fish stores.

[Roddy Conrad]

Happy Birthday Roddy!

That's good data! But...

The reason to panic when you have detectable ammonia levels in a pond is that it takes so long to ramp up a filter to deal with it. Its like treating an infection at the first sign of fever... to use a medical analogy. You want to catch it early, because the "cure" can take a long time to implement.
:)

Well, YES, I agree, good point.

And it did take me a while to learn how to build effective cheap DIY home biofilters to drop the measured ammonia below 0.01 ppm to the non-detectable 0.00 ppm I routinely see on the Hanna colorimeter now.

So I agree with Savannah, you do need to be learning and installing effective filtration technology as long as the ammonia is easily detectable on a normal test procedure. And, like Savannah says, the filtration cure may take a while to build and implement if the ponder is low on the learning curve.

So panic to the point of doing some work on the filtration system, or learning how to adjust water parameters to get better biofiltration with the setup you have. But don't spend your time and energy on lots of bucks on ammonia binders and water changes when the ammonia is in the 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm range, instead spend that energy, time, and money on the basic cause of the problem, meaning inadequate biofiltration capacity or efficiency.

[Popfish]

Good thread & discussion Roddy- A very practical approach to the subject!!

[Joey S]

Good thread & discussion RoddyOK, Roddy, the temporary high ammonia doesn't kill, but what about long term effects, gill damage, specifically?

[Roddy Conrad]

I am convinced as others that ammonia is not good for the fish, no argument!

The point of the discussion is what to do when the ammonia is measurable at what level.

I see a lot of panic at measured levels of 0.2 ppm to 0.5 ppm with big water exchanges, lots of money spend on ammonia binders, etc. I just think in that range of ammonia the energy is better spent on solving the basic filtration issue rather than activity that does not solve the actual problem.

[koi kichi]

I need to rephrase my question. Is there an ok level while you are cycling that you don't have to add salt. I have plants but will remove them if even .25 nitrites will hurt my koi.

[stephen]

Nice thread:)

:yahoo:

[Roddy Conrad]

Salt has no effect on the toxicity of ammonia, but does reduce the toxicity of nitrites to the koi.

There is always enough salt in the pond to handle the toxicity of 0.25 ppm nitrite levels, so there is no need to add salt when nitrite is 0.25 ppm.

If the nitrite is more than 1 ppm for more than a week, remove plants and add salt!

[koi kichi]

Thank you very much! I might get this pond right after all.

[jjspond]

I just brought home a panda moor and 2 butterfly koi from the Koi & Goldfish show in Portland. They were bagged from noon to 9pm. I know ammonia goes up and pH goes down, so I do a pH check on my Q-tanks to make sure they're not too overly high to be shocking. So this thread was timely & good news.

The fish I got were from A's Aquarium (Tommy). ArtL. (Koidoc) gave his approval (which I sweated thru since I'd already put my money down). At first (I think) he was looking thru show quality eyes, but appeared more pleased when he found out it was the genetics I was going for. Now I just have to get her to survive till next summer's breeding time.

[Dan Cole]

I've heard that ammonia was less toxic at pH levels below 7 and I guess what you experienced is a good example of that and probably why the fish survived the trip?

Dan

[hacnp]

Many thanks Roddy! We have never had an ammonia reading in the main pond and when 2 large koi we put in a hosital tank were not as bad off as I thought (they spent the first night doin the wild thang) I freaked out because we suddenly had .5 and climbing in 700 Gals. with em still going at it. Got past that and everyone is now back in the main pond with no problems. But knowing this is a lot of help to those of us lacking in hands on exerience. And that little devil of a Male Kohaku is destined for the retirement pond :yes:

[Roddy Conrad]

I've heard that ammonia was less toxic at pH levels below 7 and I guess what you experienced is a good example of that and probably why the fish survived the trip?

Dan

The usual explanation of how fish survive trips in bags at high ammonia is the pH drop, which makes the ammonia in its less toxic ionized form. And the ammonia is definitely less toxic at lower pH.

However, it takes a while even at higher pH to do serious damage to the koi at significant ammonia readings.

I will surf around and see what I can add in the form of charts to the post.

[Joey S]

Salt has no effect on the toxicity of ammonia, but does reduce the toxicity of nitrites to the koi.

There is always enough salt in the pond to handle the toxicity of 0.25 ppm nitrite levels, so there is no need to add salt when nitrite is 0.25 ppm.
If the nitrite is more than 1 ppm for more than a week, remove plants and add salt!
Do you always have salt in the water? and what level do you usually run? Am only at .03 - just a trace. Yes, I have the decimal point right :D:

[Roddy Conrad]

Most water sources test to have between 0.02% and 0.07% salt content by the normal test method.

And that is usually enough salt to prevent nitrite poisoning.

But when the nitrite goes above 1 ppm for a significant time period, I prefer to bump the salt level up to the 0.1% to 0.2% range.

[Roddy Conrad]

Here is one technical research reference I find when searching for information of the toxicity of ammonia to carp (meaning koi).

Please notice the 24 hour LC50, meaning the concentration at which half the carp die in 24 hours, is above 100 ppm at the specific test conditions.

No wonder the koi survive 10 ppm for a half day in a shipping bag!


Article New SpringerLink BETA Version
Explore this article today!

Aquaculture International
Publisher: Springer Netherlands
ISSN: 0967-6120 (Paper) 1573-143X (Online)
DOI: 10.1023/A:1022408529458
Issue: Volume 10, Number 4

Date: July 2002
Pages: 317 - 325
Histopathological, serum enzyme, cholesterol and urea changes in experimental acute toxicity of ammonia in common carp Cyprinus carpio and use of natural zeolite for prevention
R. Peyghan1 and G. Azary Takamy2

(1) Veterinary Medicine Faculty, Shahid Chamran University, Ahvaz, Iran
(2) Veterinary Medicine faculty, Tehran University, Azadi St, Tehran, Iran


Abstract Commoncarp, Cyprinus carpio, was exposed to ammonia in a series of acute toxicity tests at 20–22 °C. 24 -hLC50 values were estimated 123 mg/l total ammonia-N (45.5mg/l molecular ammonia-N). In the lethal concentration of ammonia for common carp (150 mg/l total ammonia), the application of 10g/l natural zeolite prevented the fish mortalities. In histopathologic study, the most important lesions that encountered in the gillwere hyperemia, edema and aneurysm. In the kidney, degenerative changes of tubules and glumeruli, expansion of Bowman's capsules, hyperemia, congestion and hemorrhage were the most prominent lesions. There were hyperemia, degeneration and the presence of some necrotic aria as the only lesions observed in the liver. In the serum the level of alkaline phosphatase (ALP) and urea of experimental groups were significantly higher than the control. There was no significant difference in other enzymes and cholesterol level between experimental groups and control fishes.

[Joey S]

Roddy appreciate your time to educate us and all your personal observations and experiments. Please don't try to replicate this test data with your pretty babies. :no:

[Roddy Conrad]

I found a 150 page EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) monograph on line about the ammonia toxicity to fish at:

http://epa.gov/waterscience/criteria/ammonia/index.html

Then click on the icon for the 150 page report at the bottom of the page shown as shown below after clicking the link above:

1999 Ammonia Update (PDF) (153 pages, 790 K)

I copied and pasted the key chart below from that 150 page document. Incidentally, carp are listed in MANY research publications to be tested to be the least sensitive to ammonia levels of all varieties of fish tested for ammonia toxicity.

Notice please that the less sensitive fish varieties have LC50 levels (concentration that kills half the fish in the test period) above 100 ppm in the EPA chart:

[Graham]

Most of the ponder around here have pH that are up in the 7.5 plus range and at those pH's ammonia is toxic and gets progressively more toxic the high the pH goes ...even low amounts like 0.5

Anytime that there is readable ammonia, using our standard test kits, in the system steps should be taken to correct the problem



If you are running low pH like 7.4 and lower and get a total ammonia reading down in the 0.1 range then it's not much of a problem but again steps should be taken to correct the problem


....there is no such thing as acceptable levels of ammonia........period!

[KoiCop]

Thanks for digging that chart up and sharing it with us.

One question though:


Notice please that the less sensitive fish varieties have LC50 levels (concentration that kills half the fish in the test period) above 100 ppm in the EPA chart.
The chart's vertical axis shows "mg N/L" whereas you use "ppm" when discussing concentration levels; are those the same thing? Thanks, Don

[Graham]

Don yes they are the same thing.

Just to add something to my post above...I've been reading Dr George Post book on fish health and on pg 57 he discusses Bacterial Gill Disease..........which is generally caused by the gills being irritated and then attacked by bacterial...the 1st irritant that he mentions is ammonia and it's affect on the gills. Given constant expousre to low levels the gills go hyperplasic and it's these cells that get attacked......ammonia is not a good thing at any level

HB Roddy :yes:

G

[Eluned]

Roddy - how long did it take you to check the pH of the bag water after they were opened? Since the fish were bagged with pure O2, and respiration gives off CO2, as soon as the bags were opened, the equilibrium between the gas and water in the previously closed system would have changed. the actually pH of the water may have been even lower than you measured.

[Roddy Conrad]

milligrams per liter (mg/L) and ppm (parts per million) mean the same thing as Graham replied.

Yes, Lynne, your point is correct. The pH of water varies significantly depending on sample history and test conditions.

I closed the bags as soon as we took out the fish until I could make the readings, in answer to your question. But it is definitely possible the pH was even lower in the bag before opening it, no argument.

And Graham's points about bacterial gill disease are also correct, in that chronic problem ammonia levels do lead to bacterial gill disease. The issue is how much ammonia how long will lead to bacterial gill disease on what variety of fish? Please note one of the references I cited above discusses that very issue for carp on page 2, post 19, of this thread. Except instead of using the general term bacterial gill disease they were more specific about gill symptoms with more scientific terms for the observations, as usual in technical publications.

[Roddy Conrad]

I checked the main government database for toxicity data and found a study of 16 month old carp at 4 ppm (4,000 ppb in the table) measured ammonia level for 31 days. The carp were examined versus controls in every possible way, and no changes nor deaths nor illnesses were evident in this scientific study versus appropriate controls.

Okay, it is not good to have significant amounts of ammonia in a koi pond, no argument. My point is that panicking at 0.5 ppm measured ammonia for a few days is inappropriate to the situation when in a scientific study they could not find any effect of keeping 16 month old carp (same as koi) at 4 ppm for 31 days. That's all I was trying to say.

[Graham]

Okay, it is not good to have significant amounts of ammonia in a koi pond, no argument. My point is that panicking at 0.5 ppm measured ammonia for a few days is inappropriate to the situation when in a scientific study they could not find any effect of keeping 16 month old carp (same as koi) at 4 ppm for 31 days. That's all I was trying to say.

Ok that I'll agree with, but as I said earlier if it's readable then the problem needs to be addressed. If the ponder has a high PH then that problem becomes even more of an issue.....

I know what you where trying to say but orntamental fish hobbyists need to address any ammonia reading regardless of pH and temp as soon as possible...what's the problem and how do I fix it

G
__________________

[Koi Story]

Appendix 5. Histopathological Effects
Fewer results of the effects of chronic exposure of aquatic life to ammonia are available that results of the effects of acute exposures. The available data indicate that ammonia can have adverse effects on aquatic life at relatively low concentrations, approaching 0.001 to 0.006 mg NH3-N/L. These reported adverse effects include quantitative data showing that decreased survival, growth, and reproduction are correlated to increasing concentrations of ammonia.
... Non-salmonid fish species have exhibited similar effects, with the calculated “no apparent growth effect” concentrations ranging from 0.03 mg NH3-N/L at pH=6.6 to 0.05 mg NH3-N/L at pH=8.68
Quote from page 124 http://epa.gov/waterscience/criteria/ammonia/99update.pdf

ks

[Harveythekoi]

It also takes temperature into account along with pH.

When building the pond I had the fish in a temp 3000 gallon pool. It got a leak in the bottom amd we drained almost all the way down. After filling the fish started to show distress and we broke out the test kits to find ammonia from the chloramines through the roof. Even though the temps were low our pH is very high and that lead to the deaths of two fish. Binder helped save the rest.

That was my lesson on water changes and chloramine. Granted that was almost a 100% change but for those of you who panic about low levels of ammonia and nitrites sometimes water changes can add to the problem.

Garrett

http://cnykoi.com/calculators/calcnh3c.asp

[aartwmich]

Interesting stuff ... short term high levels of ammonia with low Ph, don't panic-got it!

Agree with Graham tho that ammonia over 1.0 and higher Ph ponds needs to be tended to.

BTW Roddy.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! ;)

[kgt1223]

Well, this is all very technically stimulating but......................

WHERE ARE THE **** FISH PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roddy Conrad]

What fish do you want to see?

[koitoo]

Roddy,

Keifer meant your 5 B-day gifts (the Brady's babies)!

Thank you for starting this thread. It is extremely educational...Happy B-day!!

[kgt1223]

What fish do you want to see?
Brady brought me 5 new koi from his fish farm near Charlotte, NC, yesterday on my 65th birthday, a little deal Lizzie had arranged.
BTW


HAPPY BIRTHDAY RODDY :yahoo:

[Roddy Conrad]

I posted the pics Brady took of the birthday koi on the birthday thread, post no 6, at:

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46613&page=1

However, as Lizzie and I agree, the koi are much higher quality than indicated by Brady's pics.

We have not taken pics of them yet because they are currently going through my standard shotgun parasite eradication procedure for new arrivals in the main indoor koi pond. I have treated them in the main indoor koi pond at 25 ppm Formalin levels for the last three days in a row, verifying each time that within 24 hours the biofiltration system for the indoor koi pond completely biotreats all the formalin out of the pond.

After two more of the 25 ppm treatments, next comes Supaverm, then Dimilin.

Then they will be ready to come out in the bright sunshine and warmer water where pics will do them justice to their high quality. Then we will post our own pics.

Brady agreed (when asked directly) they should preferably be treated with a competent shotgun parasite treatment in quarantine.

The birthday koi are shown in our main indoor koi pond in the next KoiFixx video, along with some other koi that were already in there keeping the filter cycled for late fall and Winter, when we on a single selected day move almost all the koi to the indoor koi pond for winter.

[Mr Pete]

Roddy...as always I find your posts very informative. Thank you.

This thread raises a question with me. If one is bagging Koi for shipping, why not use a product like "Ultimate" made by the same company that makes "Chlormax" the ammonia detoxifier (they call it..not a 'binder') and insure that the Koi travel in less stress?

"Ultimate" per description in the 2006 AES catalog reads:

"This convenient, fully functional water conditioner instantly removes chlorine, chloramines and ammonia from fresh or salt water. It also detoxifies copper and heavy metals, boosts alkalinity and adds essential electrolytes needed for proper fish growth. It is excellent for conditioning new water in ponds. Can also be used in shipping bags during transport. When testing for ammonia, a salicylate test kit must be used. One gallon treats approximately 7,680 gallons."

[Roddy Conrad]

I am not an expert at shipping koi in bags.

But if Ultimate boosts alkalinity, then you would not want it in a shipping bag, since you want the pH to drop in the shipping bag to make the high ammonia less toxic.

Fish farmers who regularly ship koi add nothing to the bag but water, fish, and oxygen. I presume they have studied this process and the various chemicals, and know what they are doing. Meaning Brady bagged the fish, they got here fine, are doing fine in quarantine, and, YES, the water in the bag measured 10 ppm ammonia.

[Mikeyzr]

Thought I'd bump this one back up.

My Bradygoi just came today. This is my first batch of koi, ever. As my luck goes, Brady and I find out last minute that Delta doesn't ship to my location. So, we use UPS next day am. Although I don't know the exact time they were packaged, I'd estimate at about 7am CST (as Brady called me around 930am) I got 8 koi ranging from about 6.5" to 11", average being 9". UPS rolled in my driveway at 1030 am CST this morning on the nuts. So, that's 27.5 hours of ship/bag time. Brady said temps were in the 90's there, and I had temps in the lower 80's here.

After doing some acclimating, I scooped out some bag water for testing. My digital temp said 79F. Paramaters as follows

GH 161.1
KH 125.3
PH 6.8
NH3 6MG/L !!

The ammonia was off the scale. I just estimated one shade darker to 6MG/L but it was definately over 5! When I opened the box, I saw 8 pairs of eyes gazing up at me, happy to get into some clean water!

Mike

[Roddy Conrad]

I had to dilute the water in the shipping bag by a factor of 5 to get the ammonia on the scale of my test procedures. And both procedures gave exactly 10 ppm from 7 hours in the shipping bag from Brady's farm to my house.