PDA

View Full Version : Suspended Solids



dweav44
08-25-2008, 02:13 AM
I am noticing some suspended solids in the pond we maintain. Is there a product that binds those particles so they drop to the bottom drains? Water quality is great.

Thanks!
Daniel

koiman1950
08-25-2008, 04:22 AM
I am noticing some suspended solids in the pond we maintain. Is there a product that binds those particles so they drop to the bottom drains? Water quality is great.

Thanks!
Daniel

If you have suspended solids in the water column, how can the water QUALITY be GREAT? One DIRECTLY EFFECTS THE OTHER.

So, what do you mean by suspended solids? Fish waste/detritus or algae or?

There are products on the market for this, but I just don't like recommended the useage of any of them. These are chemicals that bind molecular structures together, and as such can coat the gills as well and cause more problems than turbid water will. How much water is changed out per week when cleaning the filters? What type of filtration is on this pond?

What the cause is I can't positively pinpoint, but it sounds to me like too much food is being fed for the capacity of the filter to handle. Either increase the filtration or reduce the quantity of food. Remember the old saying, you don't feed your fish, you feed your FILTERS!

Mike

lilhelper
08-25-2008, 04:31 AM
you just need to polish your water with a sand filter or something along those lines.

dweav44
08-25-2008, 10:31 AM
If you have suspended solids in the water column, how can the water QUALITY be GREAT? One DIRECTLY EFFECTS THE OTHER.

I am under the impression that if I do a water test and all of the results fall within the desired target then I have GREAT water quality for the KOI. I am also under the impression that just because you have crystal clear water doesn't mean you have good water quality for koi. Mud ponds have some of the best water quality you can find.

I am interested in making the water clearer for the owners of the pond. The only time I can see the suspended solids is when the sun is shining directly on the pond.



So, what do you mean by suspended solids? Fish waste/detritus or algae or?


I don't know what the actual suspended solids are. I'm pretty confident that its not algae.

Daniel

Skye
08-25-2008, 10:45 AM
Try koi clay. I've heard it helps bind particles to make it easier for the filters to pick them up. I use it once a week, and it really seems to "polish" the water nicely.

dweav44
08-25-2008, 10:52 AM
Try koi clay. I've heard it helps bind particles to make it easier for the filters to pick them up. I use it once a week, and it really seems to "polish" the water nicely.

What is the rate of clay you use each week?(lbs of clay/gals.)

Thank you,

Daniel

six6guy
08-25-2008, 11:24 AM
For Koi clay, one tablespoon per 1,000g total water volume after each water change. In addition to helping with some particulate it also helps with heavy metals that may be present in your source water.

For the record, Mike is spot on about water quality. There is a very interesting article in the current issue of the Koi Nations magazine that you want to read.

Brad

Fishbreeder
08-25-2008, 12:05 PM
Things I've used for that procedure successfully include....

Poly Aluminum chloride

Aluminum sulfate

Calcium sulfate

chicken manure

Calcium bentonite (koi clay)

Calcium hydroxide

All flocculants. Use according to what is being flocculated and the water chemistry of the pond, misuse can kill the fish.

Also, there are filters for that work. The very best would be a DE (Diatomaceous Earth) filter. Takes a big one for a koi pond and it must be cleaned and reset about once every two or three hours until the pond is clear. Uses a lot of DE in the process.

Rapid sand filter, works to remove semi-fine solids, but must be backwashed frequently and will eventually channelize and/or go anaerobic. Use for maybe two or three days, then remove the sand and start over again.

These filtration methods work well, but are VERY costly to implement.

Brett

dweav44
08-25-2008, 01:59 PM
For Koi clay, one tablespoon per 1,000g total water volume after each water change. In addition to helping with some particulate it also helps with heavy metals that may be present in your source water.

For the record, Mike is spot on about water quality. There is a very interesting article in the current issue of the Koi Nations magazine that you want to read.

Brad

The Aug/Sept. issue? I'm trying to figure out which article you are talking about.

Daniel

dweav44
08-25-2008, 02:50 PM
If you have suspended solids in the water column, how can the water QUALITY be GREAT? One DIRECTLY EFFECTS THE OTHER.

Mike


For the record, Mike is spot on about water quality. There is a very interesting article in the current issue of the Koi Nations magazine that you want to read.

Brad


I am assuming you are refering to the article in the Aug./Sept. issue of Koi Nations titled 'Water's Wheel of Life'. I have read over that article a couple of times and see no connection between suspended solids affecting or equaling poor water quality. It is very possible though that I have overlooked something.

Koi Nation's June/July issue article 'Bio Is Not Bio' by Kent Wallace
"Water quality and water clarity are not the same and should not be confused with each other, but we would like to have both"

I stated that our water quality is great because when I test the water every other week I get excellent results. I am not saying that there aren't parasites in the water or any other dangers. I would assume that the suspended solids would affect, if anything, the ammonia levels. They aren't, and that is why I made a point to say that water quality is great. If we can't have great water then we have good water.:confused: I am just interested in getting rid of the suspended solids.

How is Mike spot on? And if he is then I need some explanation so I can learn some more. It is a bold statement to say that I can't have good water quality(after I stated I did) because of some suspended solids. Explanation is requested.

Daniel

Prelude
08-25-2008, 03:15 PM
I'm curious because I used to have something like this.

Is it kind of clumpy? Mushy?

I'll describe what I had... It was like a collection of waste. Debris and rotting stuff. I'd occasionally find leaves and stuff in it. It would be very soft and break up extremely easily. Couldn't get it with a net, had to scoop it out with a bowl. It seemed to float up and down depending on the release of gases. It would bubble a little as though it were releasing it at least. I don't think it effected the water quality because when I tested the water it also was within all the correct ranges. Not to say it didn't, it was just stuck where it was. Which is why I had to clean it out.

Maybe a picture would help. Can you catch any and inspect it?

dweav44
08-25-2008, 03:37 PM
I'm curious because I used to have something like this.

Is it kind of clumpy? Mushy?

I'll describe what I had... It was like a collection of waste. Debris and rotting stuff. I'd occasionally find leaves and stuff in it. It would be very soft and break up extremely easily. Couldn't get it with a net, had to scoop it out with a bowl. It seemed to float up and down depending on the release of gases. It would bubble a little as though it were releasing it at least. I don't think it effected the water quality because when I tested the water it also was within all the correct ranges. Not to say it didn't, it was just stuck where it was. Which is why I had to clean it out.

Maybe a picture would help. Can you catch any and inspect it?

These are small pieces. I can try to take a picture of it and catch some as well.

Daniel

koiman1950
08-25-2008, 03:54 PM
Daniel

Suspended solids are usually caused by multiple issues, the most important is detritus from the fish. This solid waste material begins to break down almost immediately once in suspension and turn into dissolved organic carbons. If you have sufficient bio filtration, it will handle the ammonia/nitrite load and you should be left with a minimal amount of nitrate (under 10ppm). Getting rid of the rest of the smaller particulates is a job for the mechanical filtration and water changes to help eliminate, or at best, reduce the load to a manageable level.

Now, could you provide us with your readings on the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph, Gh and Kh of the pond. Also, what size is the pond (gallons), what type of filtration is being used and what the turnover rates are. Rather than continuing to discuss your problem in an antagonistic manner, let's get to the root cause(s) of the problem so you don't have to work so hard.

One recommendation that was mentioned was the use of "koi" clay or bentonite/montmorillanite clay. This does help with the flocculation of suspended particulates in the least harmful/safest manner and might help improve the water quality.

BTW, I never said your water wasn't "good" it just doesn't sound GREAT!

Mike

six6guy
08-25-2008, 04:47 PM
Sorry Daniel, I didn't intend to imply anything negative with my quickly typed post. I think Mike said it pretty well originally and with the post just prior to this one.

Truth be known there are experts that keep pea green soup ponds with show quality Koi in them. I'm not of that mind set... my pond is for my viewing pleasure and nothing more. Generally suspended solids, IMHO, indicate an adjustment needs to be made in order to maintain my self imposed standard of view-ability.

Brad

boggen
08-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Daniel

Suspended solids are usually caused by multiple issues, the most important is detritus from the fish. This solid waste material begins to break down almost immediately once in suspension and turn into dissolved organic carbons. If you have sufficient bio filtration, it will handle the ammonia/nitrite load and you should be left with a minimal amount of nitrate (under 10ppm). Getting rid of the rest of the smaller particulates is a job for the mechanical filtration and water changes to help eliminate, or at best, reduce the load to a manageable level.

Now, could you provide us with your readings on the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph, Gh and Kh of the pond. Also, what size is the pond (gallons), what type of filtration is being used and what the turnover rates are. Rather than continuing to discuss your problem in an antagonistic manner, let's get to the root cause(s) of the problem so you don't have to work so hard.

One recommendation that was mentioned was the use of "koi" clay or bentonite/montmorillanite clay. This does help with the flocculation of suspended particulates in the least harmful/safest manner and might help improve the water quality.

BTW, I never said your water wasn't "good" it just doesn't sound GREAT!

Mike
ditto mikes questions.

Roddy Conrad
08-25-2008, 09:24 PM
The issue Brett mentions with using sand filters in koi ponds can be solved easily. When the sand grows biofilm and sticks together, treat the sand with your choice of PP (potassium permanganate) or industrial strength hydrogen peroxide (bought locally as Baquacil Oxidizer at 27% hydrogen peroxide strength). I have used both these tricks to clean up the glass in our Sacremento Koi Advantage glass filters, which have the same biofilm development issue as sand filters. If you do this, remember to back wash the oxidizers (PP OR hydrogen peroxide) from the filter before putting it back on line to the koi pond.

Either a sand or glass filter will easily remove the suspended particles, and the problems Brett mentions are easily solved in intelligent maintenance practices.

vipldy
08-25-2008, 09:27 PM
The issue Brett mentions with using sand filters in koi ponds can be solved easily. When the sand grows biofilm and sticks together, treat the sand with your choice of PP (potassium permanganate) or industrial strength hydrogen peroxide (bought locally as Baquacil Oxidizer at 27% hydrogen peroxide strength). I have used both these tricks to clean up the glass in our Sacremento Koi Advantage glass filters, which have the same biofilm development issue as sand filters. If you do this, remember to back wash the oxidizers (PP OR hydrogen peroxide) from the filter before putting it back on line to the koi pond.

Either a sand or glass filter will easily remove the suspended particles, and the problems Brett mentions are easily solved in intelligent maintenance practices.
Would there be any benefit to do this on a regular bead filter?

Marie

Brutuscz
08-25-2008, 09:33 PM
People stated many absolutes in this thread that are simply not right. I had pea soup water most of the last 2 seasons. Fish are incredibly healthy, growing well..and measurements are excellent. No sick fish this season (knock wood!!). So, I added a big aqua ultraviolet 200watt unit. Water is clear now...but with solids. Why?? Now I have algae growing on the sides..much more than when I had pea soup. Well, the fish are grazing like crazy...and there are my solids. Water measurements couldn't be more finer!!
Why the algae issues...had no shade..all direct sun and tap water with phosphates. The algae issues are inevitable. For the solids...I use polyester fiber(walmart) in my pre-filter and throw it out every 1-2weeks. Works well..but my point is all floating solids are not a problem. Could just be koi grazing. Keep up on water changes and basic cleanliness and you shouldn't have a problem.

Roddy Conrad
08-25-2008, 09:36 PM
A resounding "No" is the answer to Marie's question. The point of the treatment is to use enough oxidizer to destroy the biofilm intentionally. If that is done to a bead filter, the biofilm is gone and the filter will have to be recycled.

Glass and sand filters are for mechanical filtration of suspeneded solids only, they are not meant to do biofiltration. And if they develop biofilm, the pressure drop across the rapidly rises to the 15 psi to 45 psi range and flow through them from a normal koi pond pump simply stops. So a regular oxidation schedule is a maintenance requirement for a glass or sand filter on a fish pond if a decent flow through them is required for the mechanical filtration function.

Low level oxidizer concentrations are okay to send through a bead filter, but the high dose meant to intentionally kill the biofilm and clean up the filtration media is not something you want to do to a pond bead filter.

Roddy Conrad
08-25-2008, 09:39 PM
The point of the really clear water is to enjoy seeing the eye candy called koi better.

Some suspended solids do not hurt the koi like said above, but they don't help with visual enjoyment of the hobby!

vipldy
08-25-2008, 09:42 PM
The point of the really clear water is to enjoy seeing the eye candy called koi better.

Some suspended solids do not hurt the koi like said above, but they don't help with visual enjoyment of the hobby!

I'll ditto that:yes:

Maryanne
08-25-2008, 09:49 PM
I have to agree that I have been plagued with floating matter for 2 seasons but it is algae. The water quality is excellent, but my pond is in full sun. The algae is like kelp, it grows inches in one day. The koi graze and knock off pieces all day long. That's just the way it is. I'll almost be glad when they are back in the basement and I do not have to fight the algae wars any more.

Ethan25
08-26-2008, 01:04 PM
I find that the phoam phraxionator I built tends to clear the pond of these small solids as they stick to the bubbles and come out via the bubbles.

dweav44
08-26-2008, 01:41 PM
Daniel

Suspended solids are usually caused by multiple issues, the most important is detritus from the fish. This solid waste material begins to break down almost immediately once in suspension and turn into dissolved organic carbons. If you have sufficient bio filtration, it will handle the ammonia/nitrite load and you should be left with a minimal amount of nitrate (under 10ppm). Getting rid of the rest of the smaller particulates is a job for the mechanical filtration and water changes to help eliminate, or at best, reduce the load to a manageable level.

Now, could you provide us with your readings on the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph, Gh and Kh of the pond. Also, what size is the pond (gallons), what type of filtration is being used and what the turnover rates are. Rather than continuing to discuss your problem in an antagonistic manner, let's get to the root cause(s) of the problem so you don't have to work so hard.

One recommendation that was mentioned was the use of "koi" clay or bentonite/montmorillanite clay. This does help with the flocculation of suspended particulates in the least harmful/safest manner and might help improve the water quality.

BTW, I never said your water wasn't "good" it just doesn't sound GREAT!

Mike

Here are the results from a water test done this morning.

Ph - 8
GH - 107.16 ppm
KH - 142.88 ppm
Nitrite - < .3 mg/l
Ammonia - 0 mg/l
Temp - 75 deg. F

Size - 32,000gal
Filtration - 3 Nexus units(designed and built with 6 in mind, but the customer wanted to try three for right now)
Backflush Nexus Units - 2/week
Skimmers - 5 Savio skimmers(with typical matting)
Pond is turned over every 3 1/2 hrs
10% water change 1/week

Daniel

Ethan25
08-26-2008, 01:46 PM
People stated many absolutes in this thread that are simply not right. I had pea soup water most of the last 2 seasons. Fish are incredibly healthy, growing well..and measurements are excellent. No sick fish this season (knock wood!!). So, I added a big aqua ultraviolet 200watt unit. Water is clear now...but with solids. Why?? Now I have algae growing on the sides..much more than when I had pea soup. Well, the fish are grazing like crazy...and there are my solids. Water measurements couldn't be more finer!!
Why the algae issues...had no shade..all direct sun and tap water with phosphates. The algae issues are inevitable. For the solids...I use polyester fiber(walmart) in my pre-filter and throw it out every 1-2weeks. Works well..but my point is all floating solids are not a problem. Could just be koi grazing. Keep up on water changes and basic cleanliness and you shouldn't have a problem.


You probably had some solids initially that just could not be seen with the green water. Now that it is clear of the green algae, you are able to view them maybe???

andrew davis
08-26-2008, 02:04 PM
With surface coating algaes doing well in fertile waters, forming debris which is close to neutral buoyancy which is readily set drifting by grazing koi, perhaps there are some skimmers better suited for collecting such debris than others.

I wonder if there might be a technique, for example bubbling aerators, where if they were set below the skimmer, it would help drive the less buoyant debris up to the outflow for improved clarity performance...

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

koiman1950
08-26-2008, 06:03 PM
Here are the results from a water test done this morning.

Ph - 8
GH - 107.16 ppm
KH - 142.88 ppm
Nitrite - < .3 mg/l
Ammonia - 0 mg/l
Temp - 75 deg. F

Size - 32,000gal
Filtration - 3 Nexus units(designed and built with 6 in mind, but the customer wanted to try three for right now)
Backflush Nexus Units - 2/week
Skimmers - 5 Savio skimmers(with typical matting)
Pond is turned over every 3 1/2 hrs
10% water change 1/week

Daniel

Daniel

You were absolutely right to design the system for 6 Nexus units. The sad part is the owner only decided to install 3. I'm curious about a couple things. Each Nexus is designed to handle 3500 gph, so a total of 10,500gph, which equals your stated turnover rate above. If there are 5 Savio skimmers, what type of "system" is installed on those and, if properly filtered, doesn't that flow count toward the total turnover of the "system"?

Next, how old is this system, as I see you posted a slight Nitrite level and no Nitrate level. I suspect your Nitrate level is reading 0 and your system has not fully matured, so I assume it is a rather "young" system!?

Mike

dweav44
08-26-2008, 07:27 PM
With surface coating algaes doing well in fertile waters, forming debris which is close to neutral buoyancy which is readily set drifting by grazing koi, perhaps there are some skimmers better suited for collecting such debris than others.

I wonder if there might be a technique, for example bubbling aerators, where if they were set below the skimmer, it would help drive the less buoyant debris up to the outflow for improved clarity performance...

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Absolutely excellent point about the grazing koi nocking off some algae from the walls. :clap: I have to believe that is part of the debris I'm seeing.

Daniel

dweav44
08-26-2008, 07:32 PM
Daniel

You were absolutely right to design the system for 6 Nexus units. The sad part is the owner only decided to install 3. I'm curious about a couple things. Each Nexus is designed to handle 3500 gph, so a total of 10,500gph, which equals your stated turnover rate above. If there are 5 Savio skimmers, what type of "system" is installed on those and, if properly filtered, doesn't that flow count toward the total turnover of the "system"?

Next, how old is this system, as I see you posted a slight Nitrite level and no Nitrate level. I suspect your Nitrate level is reading 0 and your system has not fully matured, so I assume it is a rather "young" system!?

Mike


Very young system. We finished the pond renovation early this year. Here is a link to the build thread you might be interested in.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66826

I guess the skimmers could count towards the turnover rate. I thought there had to be more of a filtration system for it to count towards the turnover. Three skimmers feed the upper pond while the other two just recirculate water right back into the lower pond. The skimmers have 2 UVs and 1 filter mat in each.

Daniel

boggen
08-26-2008, 11:44 PM
ya got what it sounds like alot of pumps doing the poo into mence mew thing, and causing alot of extra fines,

my vote is beef up the filteration. but what or how leads me to ask. do you have a diagram per chance showing all the inlets and outlets on the pond and were the plumbing is ran and size of plumbing?

the pond build thread i went through. be left me assuming to much of were things are and what pipe sizes are and where the plumbing went to. then again i didn't wait for all pictures to load up on thread. due to dial up

dweav44
08-27-2008, 12:11 AM
ya got what it sounds like alot of pumps doing the poo into mence mew thing, and causing alot of extra fines,

my vote is beef up the filteration. but what or how leads me to ask. do you have a diagram per chance showing all the inlets and outlets on the pond and were the plumbing is ran and size of plumbing?

the pond build thread i went through. be left me assuming to much of were things are and what pipe sizes are and where the plumbing went to. then again i didn't wait for all pictures to load up on thread. due to dial up

I will make a map of the pond and piping system for you to take a look at. I can probably get that up here tomorrow evening.

If you haven't seen any of boggen's handy work with these diagrams and drawings you are missing out. Artwork to say the least. You put a lot of time and effort to help people on this forum and I speak for everyone when saying, I appreciate it. Heck, you helped me tremendously on my project.

Daniel

kitfoxdrvr
08-27-2008, 12:09 PM
Maryanne:

You are right that grazing koi contribute greatly to lowering water clarity. My water gets progressively less crystalline as the summer goes by and they have more natural food available. I have taken photos under water and blown them up and you can see much of this is SA that the fish pulled loose from the liner/rocks. During fall/winter, the water goes back to a very clear state. And anyone that has ever seen a mud pond with koi in it knows that these fish can stir up a mess, even in "perfect" water, when there is something available to be stirred.

Daniel:

I should have remembered that you were the builder of the nicest private pond I have ever seen! Thanks for the link to remind me! Get a white bucket and pull a bucket full out of the pond and let us know if the particles (or in this case threads) are green. I, like Maryanne, would not be surprised if it is not SA. If brown, poo is the likely culprit-it naturally gets worse during the summer, too (hmmmm, that extra food, maybe!). :rubbish1: Either way, I agree, Boggen can help. I am counting on him to help me with my rearrangement this fall!!! :yes:

Steve

koiman1950
08-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Very young system. We finished the pond renovation early this year. Here is a link to the build thread you might be interested in.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66826

I guess the skimmers could count towards the turnover rate. I thought there had to be more of a filtration system for it to count towards the turnover. Three skimmers feed the upper pond while the other two just recirculate water right back into the lower pond. The skimmers have 2 UVs and 1 filter mat in each.

Daniel

Daniel, as a fellow contractor.koi pond builder, I will say you have done an amazing transformation of this property. The ponds are well thought out and planned. Your reasoning for the skimmers is spot on. I would say "most" everything was well thought out prior to starting. The "other" part would be the use of a settling chamber from which to feed the Nexus filters from. I personally have a converted swimming pool that unfortunately has to be pumped from the skimmers/BD to the mechanical filtration. Not my "true" idea of proper filtration. HOWEVER, in my situation, it was planned for MECHANICAL FILTRATION ONLY! My mech/bio pulls from mid-level and returns via a waterfall. It knew it would be a challenge from the beginning, but as worked out extremely well. Now that the fish have grown well, I need to supplement my existing bio with a set of shower filters for increased degassing and bio filtration.

Your skimmer circuits are NOT adding to your filtration within this system as they are, so I would say this pond is WAY UNDERFILTERED. you have good circulation with all that water movement, I just think you could put the electrical energy being expended to better functional rather than esthetic use. Let's see what Ryan comes up with after you post the diagrams and maybe I can add my 2cents for what it's worth.

I'm still really impressed with your overall design. BTW, that sheeting action you have going on is adding some good degassing to the system as a thin sheet of water has better contact with the air.

Mike

dweav44
08-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Thanks for the comments I can respond a little more after a little while. I am just now starting the diagram. I will post later. Sorry for the delay.

Daniel

dweav44
08-28-2008, 01:50 AM
Wow...that was tough. I sure hope you guys can make that out. LOL

Here's the thing...The customer isn't going to make any improvements right now, if ever. It has been an interesting project. We designed and built for 6 Nexus units and are just using 3 right now. Go figure. So I would hate for you guys to spend time on this and nothing come of it.

The black box above the first figure is an external pump that feeds the water feature. One 3" line comes from the pond and 2 2" lines feed the feature.

The filter pit is about 150' from the pond. If there where to be some additional filtration attached to the skimmer circuit it would be right next to the pond and visible.

Anyways there you go.

Mike
I appreciate your comments. As far as the settlement chamber, I explained the need and they didn't want anything to do with it. I'm hoping one day we can add the other nexus units. Those koi(60) are going to get big and we know what big koi dooo.

Steve
Thank you and you are welcome. I got a bucket today and the bits seemed mostly green. It has seemed to calm down a little bit.

Daniel

boggen
08-28-2008, 06:57 AM
well hhmmmsss... system is not really built to handle much more than 3 nexus.

i was going to suggest pulling all 3 nexus from the system. and changing the filter pit that holds them. into a more of japaneese rectangular filteration system. but. system is going to get taxed pretty hard with only 7 2" lines leading out and 6 4" lines leading into the filter pit and those 7 2" lines are not in best location to push a hole lot more water without tossing everything else out of balance/whack as far as currents in the pond.

how things are. i am going to state water of pond is going to be cloudy for majorty of ponds life. and toss it to like mud ponds as in clarity of water. were every now and then they might see bottom of pond. and at most the system is setup so the pond doesn't need to be dredged out from build up of muck on the bottom.

at about 533 gallons per koi. IE 32000/60=533. i say pond is going to have problems with other water quailty issues, that may lead to fish health issues.

i am going to say. don't add UV, don't add something to nock back algae. algae for this pond is the filteration for the pond. or lack there of, of filtration. i am going to say discourge the owners from trying to fix water clarity issues with chemicals. due to the algae for this pond is part of the over all filteration system. IE no barely straw, pp treatments, etc...

i have some ideas. but all the ideas would mean almost a complete rehaul of the plumbing. or major re-work of alot of rock work. to get the needed changes done to pull of the ideas off.

the system is not designed for upgrading filtration down the road. if owners don't want more filtration. then. they are saying they are willing or need to accept water clarity as it is. this is one of those times 2000 to 3000 bucks worth in plumbing materials and a day or 2 of labor during construction. running plumbing to filter pit. would have really paid off. as far as filtration upgrading is concerned. and now try and play the chemical game thing.

===================
i realize i am prolly going to get smacked on hands by others with above statements. but i am fresh out of ideas. without tossing things back into new pond syndrome, and possibly causing water parameters to crash over the life of the pond via use of chemicals, if keeping with current plumbing of things and amount of filtration.

to be honest. water clarity issues. size of pond and look of all the rock work. little murky water, prolly fits in just nice. *shrugs* i would be willing to live with water clairty issues at least.

dweav44
08-28-2008, 10:20 AM
Boggen:

I don't have any problems with what you said.

I think there might be some confusion though(and then again the confusion might all be on my side). I knew that might happen with me trying to draw a fast diagram.

3 of the bottom drains are piped to the filter pit but are not being used.

3 of the 2" returns are piped from the filter pit but are not being used.

Also it's funny...I know I built the pond and drew the diagram, but I don't remember 7 pipes coming back from the filter pit. I thought I had 1 2" return for each nexus(6). I guess I had 5 pipes coming from the 3 skimmers of the lower pond to the upper instead of 4. My mistake.

The water itself is clear(obviously not clear, clear water with small pieces of solids). We can see the bottom of the pond without a problem. I just saw some unwanted suspended solids that I wanted to try and get rid of.

Hopefully this cleared up some things. Let me know if it did or if you understood this in the first place and you still have concerns.

Thank you for your time.

Daniel

boggen
08-28-2008, 02:27 PM
am cringing some what more. with added info of less returns to filter pit.

for a comparison only to help get idea across better. see below diagram.
most likely everything would be 4" pipe work. exception of a tprs. which might be 3".

pretty hefty cost if ya count in like ball valves / knife valves for everything. but the bottom drain / tpr / gpr circuits. one could prolly get away with stand pipes. and save a good chunk of change. along with air lift pumps. when going old school Japanese style rectangular filtration setups. and would prolly be abit more compact as in size. and easier to clean pending on media choices.
--perhaps for mechanical filteration. brushes, or a media that can be cleaned with air.
--perhaps for bio filteration. either foam/mat type media. (don't really like idea of mat media), but perhaps a small size plastic media. and going with moving bed. or straping or something.
--perhaps a 3 to 4 layers of foam / matting for mechanical fines filtering. at the end of it all. i don't like foam or mat media. but when speaking volume of water. and amount of media and times to clean. mat/foam media and a few layers would prolly work out awesome. plus allow for a complete gravity flow filtration system for given circuit.

skimmer waterfall circuit.
--i would prolly go with a rectangle chamber. and use stand pipes for valves. i would prolly give myself enough room to place a trash pump in this chamber,
--i would prolly go to a second chamber. and put a few layers of foam/mat media.
--then goto a dry chamber. were i could have space for pumps and possible UV filters.
--then to waterfalls.

other words only ball valves in system. would be either on the pipe lines that ran to tprs/gprs/waterfalls. everything else for skimmers/drains/waste lines for filtration chambers. would use stand pipes.

ball valves for controlling air flow for air lifts. would be much smaller in size and not! count up to a good sum of cash. vs the 3" and 4" ball/knife valves.

most likely filter pit would be 2.5 times bigger than what it is now that is holding the 3 nexus units. with all drains,skimmers, tprs,gprs,waterfall lines runing to filter pit area.

=================================
above to what is on pond currently
--i would guess 10 times more in amount of effective filtration volume.
--i would guess either same cost monthly or maybe a little less.
--up front costs though. prolly after labor and material prolly $6,000 to $10,000 more. ((completely guessing on cost))
--a redo would prolly double price. due to needing to remove rock work and put in back in place and digging new trenchs for plumbing.
--after pond/system matured. algea problems would be most likely be less. but water clarity and water quailty would most likely be much easier to manage. and have some breathing room.
--filteration would be all back a filter pit and not at pond.
--higher loads of feeding could be most likely had. due to filteration would be there to deal with it.
--cleaning filters. would take some time. and pending on owners might have there handy man or like do the cleaning. or keep ya on contract to come out every so often. to clean the filters for them. if they don't do it themselves. it would be easy. just a little bit time consuming due to amount vs smaller size ponds. be almost like having them pay someone to mow there lawn. but cleaning there filters type of thing / cost.

============================

with you stating worrying about water clarity. with current filteration. water clarity is just not going to be there. and i don't think it is worth the effort to try and deal with water clarity at this moment in time. atleast with the current filteration. nothing is there to allow easy maintance. and to keep on top of water clairty all the time. and anything done would only be a short temp fix if that.

as far as water quality. i have my skepticism in me. and my gut says, something going to be done to either try and deal with water clarity or to clean the pond and the result of doing this. is going to make the water quailty suffer pretty badly because of it. and fish deaths will most likely occur. it may not be in next month. but i am going to put money down on perhaps a few times in ponds life.

koiman1950
08-29-2008, 05:03 PM
Daniel

To add to what Ryan stated, which is ALL CORRECT, with that long of a run (150') from pond to filter bay, I doubt you're gett maximum gravity flow from your 'live" bottom drains.

What size pumps are you using on the Nexus units? I suspect due to the amount of water available to the pump, these aren't more than 1/8th hp at most. There in causes another problem. Long runs BACK to the pond for the TPR/GPRs and a low amount of flow to really circulate water.

Is there a way to maybe, say, install a pressurized filter such as an Ultima 10-20,000 on the waterfall circuit. this will definitely help with water clarity as your pumping a lot of water on that circuit with no benefit of filtration. This would be the FIRST area of consideration for improvement that I would start with. You might even think about either using a 20,000 or 30,000 model that has 3" inlet/outlet. They are side mounted plumbed and actually take up less space than the "standard" 20,000 model I'm using.

Mike

koiman1950
08-29-2008, 05:04 PM
Daniel

To add to what Ryan stated, which is ALL CORRECT, with that long of a run (150') from pond to filter bay, I doubt you're getting maximum gravity flow from your 'live" bottom drains.

What size pumps are you using on the Nexus units? I suspect due to the amount of water available to the pump, these aren't more than 1/8th hp at most. There in causes another problem. Long runs BACK to the pond for the TPR/GPRs and a low amount of flow to really circulate water.

Is there a way to maybe, say, install a pressurized filter such as an Ultima 10-20,000 on the waterfall circuit? This will definitely help with water clarity as your pumping a lot of water on that circuit with no benefit of filtration. This would be the FIRST area of consideration for improvement that I would start with. You might even think about either using a 20,000 or 30,000 model that has 3" inlet/outlet. They are side mounted plumbed and actually take up less space than the "standard" 20,000 model I'm using.

Mike