PDA

View Full Version : PH, how easy is it for koi to adjust to



dick benbow
12-20-2008, 05:31 PM
One of the things i have enjoyed following over the years are Hobbyists
that import Koi from japan in close to neutral PH water and then introduce them to over 8 PH. What do you suppose this does to thier development/adjustment?

How many actually know the PH ( and other water parameters) from where their Koi come from?

Is it that big a deal?

Your thoughts ( I think winter is a good time to begin wrestling with these thoughts)

Rick Gippner
12-20-2008, 05:36 PM
Certainly alot has been writen on the subject. One of the reasons I like to get my fish from Richard. Pretty much the same water chemistry as mine.

Russell Peters
12-20-2008, 07:18 PM
One of the things i have enjoyed following over the years are Hobbyists
that import Koi from japan in close to neutral PH water and then introduce them to over 8 PH. What do you suppose this does to thier development/adjustment?

How many actually know the PH ( and other water parameters) from where their Koi come from?

Is it that big a deal?

Your thoughts ( I think winter is a good time to begin wrestling with these thoughts)

It doesn't do much of anything. Our fish come out of the bag, from Japan, in a 5.6 pH. We have usually lowered our pH to 7. It takes them a few days to settle and then there on to being normal Koi. I don't know of many hobbiest that can actually get their Koi direct from Japan so it would not be a problem most would encounter.

stephen
12-20-2008, 07:55 PM
One of the things i have enjoyed following over the years are Hobbyists
that import Koi from japan in close to neutral PH water and then introduce them to over 8 PH. What do you suppose this does to thier development/adjustment?

How many actually know the PH ( and other water parameters) from where their Koi come from?

Is it that big a deal?

Your thoughts ( I think winter is a good time to begin wrestling with these thoughts)

First of all I think the majority of Japan imports come from a neutralish pH somewhere in the range of 6.8-7.2, altho there are exceptions of course. Also the water most likely has a very low TDS, GH & Alkalinity compared to the water in most locations in the US, UK and other places where the koi may be sent to.

I have recently received 100 plus Japanese koi and they all adapted to my Q Rig's very hard, high pH water instantly. After scraping and scoping, no salt or chemicals were added whatsoever. I monitored them in their Q facility religiously (sorry Carl, please don't close the thread:D:). There was absolutely no hard water shock observed. However; it must be mentioned that they did not come directly from Japan to KVille. They first went to the 4 suppliers facilities that I purchased them from, mostly from Russell. Did any hardness shock occur at any of these facilities:confused: I don't know but hope that Russell, Matt, Kevin & any of the other dealers I bought from will chime in.

Next - After the Q procedure was complete, the fish were sent to 2 different ponds.

About 70% of them were placed in my 1,000,000 gallon plus mudpond which has a pH of 8.5 plus, TDS of about 500ppm, alkalinity of 120ppm and a GH of about 450ppm. These are basically the same water parameters of the Q Pond that they just came out of but far from the much softer water of their Japanese origin. It is highly aerated and has continuous flow from an artesion well of about 100,000 gpd. The pond is lightly stocked. The new additions adapted immediately and were eating within hours.

The other 30 % were placed in my 65,000 gallon concrete/poly pond. This particular pond has stable & maintained parameters of pH 7.1-7.3, TDS 80-100 ppm, GH 20-25ppm & alkalinity 20-25ppm. The water is always 100 % saturated with oxygen. The pond provides well in excess of 1000 gallons per fish. Absolutely no hard water shock was observed when the fish went from the hard Q water to the soft main pond water. They began eating within a couple of hours.

Next November I plan on pulling from both ponds many of these fish that came from the same Japanese pond where they will be measured, photos,etc. What do you think the results will be.

Dick - You started this thread I am particularly interested in your predictions of their future comparisons. I have my thoughts.

What Says You All:confused::confused:

Ok Sarge. You can quietly ring the bell with size 1, no caps, no bold, no italicized, no underlined font only.

CHICHI
12-20-2008, 08:37 PM
Next November I plan on pulling from both ponds many of these fish that came from the same Japanese pond where they will be measured, photos,etc. What do you think the results will be.

I don`t think Growth will be significantly impacted upon due to the results of the Magnoy Koi Farms :no: but Skin quality/Lustre/Colour will have a notable distinction between Hard Water and Soft IMO :yes: Look forward to your results in welcome anticipation :yes: Goodnight Guys :D:

Flounder
12-21-2008, 02:59 AM
Our fish come out of the bag, from Japan, in a 5.6 pH.

Russ, how do you acclimate them to your pH?

Fishbreeder
12-21-2008, 09:13 AM
You done seen how they do it straight outa the box from Japan.....


I do it a bit differently, ain;t got all that time and patience.

Bring the boxes to the holding/QT facility. Open one box and check pH, almost always around 5.5.

Set up recieivng tank(s), fill with water, add enough HCl to bring pH down to 5.5.

If need be, add enough ice to bring temp down to same as in box.

Open boxes, open bags, dump fish into tank, without the water from the bag.

Open tap and let run slowly, pH, temp, and other parameters will slowly change until they are the same as the source water.

No fish skiing across the top of the tank, coming up to gulp air, or doing antyhing other than acting like, calm fish.

Takes half an hour at most to dump a dozen boxes.

Betcha that aint far from what they do up in the PNW.

Many years ago I had water sampels taken from mud ponds, holding tanks and well heads from Niigata koi farms (tasked Goforth with this). Had the sampes analyzed in a lab. Learned exactly what kind of water the fish were grown in, then worked to match it up, at least in some high end hobby ponds. Not practical at the koi farm.

Mostly it is having a stable pH that is important, not necessarily matching a magic number. Yes, a pH of 7.4 a hardness and alkalinity of around 80 ppm, and such is best for skin development, but also means the pond must be closely monitored for a pH crash.

pH at the koi farm is from around 7.8 to 8.3 depending upon rainfall. The koi seem to do just fine.

Brett

CHICHI
12-21-2008, 09:22 AM
You done seen how they do it straight outa the box from Japan.....


I do it a bit differently, ain;t got all that time and patience.

Bring the boxes to the holding/QT facility. Open one box and check pH, almost always around 5.5.

Set up recieivng tank(s), fill with water, add enough HCl to bring pH down to 5.5.

If need be, add enough ice to bring temp down to same as in box.
Open boxes, open bags, dump fish into tank, without the water from the bag.

Open tap and let run slowly, pH, temp, and other parameters will slowly change until they are the same as the source water.

No fish skiing across the top of the tank, coming up to gulp air, or doing antyhing other than acting like, calm fish.

Takes half an hour at most to dump a dozen boxes.

Betcha that aint far from what they do up in the PNW.

Many years ago I had water sampels taken from mud ponds, holding tanks and well heads from Niigata koi farms (tasked Goforth with this). Had the sampes analyzed in a lab. Learned exactly what kind of water the fish were grown in, then worked to match it up, at least in some high end hobby ponds. Not practical at the koi farm.

Mostly it is having a stable pH that is important, not necessarily matching a magic number. Yes, a pH of 7.4 a hardness and alkalinity of around 80 ppm, and such is best for skin development, but also means the pond must be closely monitored for a pH crash.

pH at the koi farm is from around 7.8 to 8.3 depending upon rainfall. The koi seem to do just fine. Brett

Sounds like a very considerate introduction Protocol for the Koi Babes :yes: you should rightly be commended for this :clap: Many wouldn`t bother :no::no:

Russell Peters
12-21-2008, 10:24 AM
First of all I think the majority of Japan imports come from a neutralish pH somewhere in the range of 6.8-7.2, altho there are exceptions of course. Also the water most likely has a very low TDS, GH & Alkalinity compared to the water in most locations in the US, UK and other places where the koi may be sent to.

I have recently received 100 plus Japanese koi and they all adapted to my Q Rig's very hard, high pH water instantly. After scraping and scoping, no salt or chemicals were added whatsoever. I monitored them in their Q facility religiously (sorry Carl, please don't close the thread:D:). There was absolutely no hard water shock observed. However; it must be mentioned that they did not come directly from Japan to KVille. They first went to the 4 suppliers facilities that I purchased them from, mostly from Russell. Did any hardness shock occur at any of these facilities:confused: I don't know but hope that Russell, Matt, Kevin & any of the other dealers I bought from will chime in.

Next - After the Q procedure was complete, the fish were sent to 2 different ponds.

About 70% of them were placed in my 1,000,000 gallon plus mudpond which has a pH of 8.5 plus, TDS of about 500ppm, alkalinity of 120ppm and a GH of about 450ppm. These are basically the same water parameters of the Q Pond that they just came out of but far from the much softer water of their Japanese origin. It is highly aerated and has continuous flow from an artesion well of about 100,000 gpd. The pond is lightly stocked. The new additions adapted immediately and were eating within hours.

The other 30 % were placed in my 65,000 gallon concrete/poly pond. This particular pond has stable & maintained parameters of pH 7.1-7.3, TDS 80-100 ppm, GH 20-25ppm & alkalinity 20-25ppm. The water is always 100 % saturated with oxygen. The pond provides well in excess of 1000 gallons per fish. Absolutely no hard water shock was observed when the fish went from the hard Q water to the soft main pond water. They began eating within a couple of hours.

Next November I plan on pulling from both ponds many of these fish that came from the same Japanese pond where they will be measured, photos,etc. What do you think the results will be.

Dick - You started this thread I am particularly interested in your predictions of their future comparisons. I have my thoughts.

What Says You All:confused::confused:

Ok Sarge. You can quietly ring the bell with size 1, no caps, no bold, no italicized, no underlined font only.

The Koi we bring in had no acclamation problems. We don't lower our pH to match what the water in the bags is, 5.6, but we DO lower our pH to 7 or a little less. They don't miss a beat. Our pH is normally 7.8.

dick benbow
12-21-2008, 12:23 PM
I think the reason I wanted to get imput (thanks all for contributing ) is that I believe the beginning to intermediuate koi keeper has no idea of the implications of PH. Usually their first inkling is when they move a koi and it lays on it's side and gasps for breath as it system frantically tries to adjust. ( can you imagine if brett or russ didn't move their PH down and dropped a shipment in the 5's and 6's into an 8 )? So for our readers non posters, I thought this might be a good basic lesson. YOU MUST BE AWARE.

There is a reason why many high end keepers will try and adjust their water to match japan's for the reason that CHI-CHI mentions in post #5. Once Koi are adjusted to their new water from a health point if done correctly there are few to no health issues. I do think the speed of how a fish finishes and their skin and luster are affected by the water they are raised in. Over the past few years I have learned with RO water the difference that makes over what I have here in how the Koi finish and develop. I have also begun to study the difference of buying a Koi bred domestically in water closer to my own and how they develop and finish. The study is not done yet but I do detect differences in the ease of transistion.

So I hope this thread will not ignore those just learning, and will challenge those who are crossing T's and Dotting I's to reexamine the importance PH. Who wants to comment on how PH levels affect Ammonia damage and what it also does ( if too High) to Beni?

CHICHI
12-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Hi Dick ..:D:
The single greatest benefit IMO of running a Neutral PH is the relationship PH has on the NH3/NH4+ ratio ?


The free (NH3) and ionized (NH4+) forms of reduced nitrogen exist in a chemical equilibrium whose relative distribution is governed by the water's pH and temperature. For example, as the pH of a water drops (i.e., the H+ ion concentration becoming higher), free ammonia (NH3) will tend to combine with this additional, thereby shifting this chemical equilibrium towards the ionized, NH4+, form, as follows:

NH3 + H+ -> NH4+
However, given that this reaction is transformation is maintained as an equilibrium reaction, the ionized ammonium form (NH4+) may also drop a proton (H+) as the pH increases...thereby reforming free ammonia (NH3), as follows:
NH4+ -> NH3 + H+
The relative equilibrium between these two forms is determined by what is known as an equilibrium constant, Keq, which at room temperature is approximately 10^-9.25. In addition, you should known that this constant is dependent upon temperature. In turn, the relative distribution of the free (NH3) and ionized (NH4+) forms can be mathematically determined as a function of the pH and temperature of any given water. This relationship is, unfortunately, quite complex, but the 'calculator' given at the top of this page will make things a lot simpler in terms of determining the actual free ammonia concentration relative to pH, temperature (degrees Celsius) and the total ammonia (i.e., free plus ionized) nitrogen concentration (in mgs per liter). You will note that NH3 is much more dependent on pH than temperature. Within the pH range shown, an increase of one pH unit will increase the NH3 concentration about 10-fold. The USEPA publishes water quality criteria for aquatic organisms. They base these criteria on published studies on fish and other aquatic life and focus on lethal concentrations, typically the concentration at which 50 percent of the test animals die. Other studies have examined the effects at lower "sublethal" concentrations. Although most of the studies on fish deal with food fish (trout, salmon, etc.), some were based on aquarium fish such as oscars and guppies. Among the food fish, salmonids are the more sensitive, so there are separate published criteria for these fish. Lastly, it must be emphasized that as pH and temperature decrease, more total ammonia can be tolerated. However, less un-ionized NH3 will be needed at lower pH to be lethal.

http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html

Russell Peters
12-21-2008, 02:09 PM
Russ, how do you acclimate them to your pH?

See post #3

dick benbow
12-21-2008, 02:25 PM
Thanks CHI CHI for your info passed along on the connection to PH and Ammonia. It has been my experience that Beni which is being pushed with as much growth as a keeper can muster, can easily go a foul in high PH unless the beni coat is exemplerary. Any weakness and the growth and High PH ( 8.2 or above) in combination can cause catistrophic failure. True, in japan in the mud occassionally you find a shiro muji but much more common in average tateshita.

Russell Peters
12-21-2008, 02:27 PM
Thanks CHI CHI for your info passed along on the connection to PH and Ammonia. It has been my experience that Beni which is being pushed with as much growth as a keeper can muster, can easily go a foul in high PH unless the beni coat is exemplerary. Any weakness and the growth and High PH ( 8.2 or above) in combination can cause catistrophic failure. True, in japan in the mud occassionally you find a shiro muji but much more common in average tateshita.

They don't have a high pH in Japan and they do have problems with Beni so there has to be something else at work here.