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Roddy Conrad
07-28-2007, 11:38 PM
I frequently am asked in private messages to repeat the data found easily in the public PAN pesticide database on the tested aquatic toxicity of the active ingredient in AlgaeFix.

So here it is in public to satisfy all those folks sending private messages asking for it again.

This is why I recommend either sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide as an Algaecide instead of AlgaeFix!

Before you start reading, the definition of the term LC50 is that half the kind of fish die on average at this dose rate and time interval. Just so you "get" the discussion.

From Toxicity Studies for Poly(oxyethylene) (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene dichloride (active ingredient in AlgaeFix) on Fish - Toxicology studies from the primary scientific literature on aquatic organisms in the PAN pesticides database, the primary active ingredient in AlgaeFix is rated to have the following LC50 concentrations:

48 hour LC50 for channel catfish is 3 ppm
96 hour LC50 for bluegill is 0.2 ppm
48 hour LC50 for trout is 0.04 ppm

AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of the active ingredient Poly(oxyethylene) (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene dichloride according to the MSDS (Material Safety DataSheet) for AlgaeFix.

The recommendations for dosing AlgaeFix are to dose a gallon of AlgaeFix for each 38,400 gallons of water to kill algae.

To dose one gallon per each 38,400 gallons is to dose the product at a dose rate of 26 ppm, but the AlgaeFix is just 4.5% active ingredient, so the recommended dose rate of the active ingredient in AlgaeFix is 26 ppm times 0.045 = 1.18 ppm.

This is 40% of the LC50 for channel catfish, but is 6 times the LC50 for bluegill, and is 30 times the LC50 for trout. So if AlgaeFix is dosed at exactly the recommended dose rate, we should expect all the bluegill to die, all the trout to die, and some of the channel catfish to die. Just so you "get it".

And this is the RECOMMENDED dose rate, and we all know too well how products are sometimes used in ponds.
So it is no wonder a lot of folks kill their pond fish with AlgaeFix.

Okay, AlgaeFix kills algae. So does either hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate.

KINGBASHI
07-29-2007, 01:59 AM
thats just insane---how could a product like this even exist--is there any kind of warning on the label??--like will kill algae, and oh yeah, kill some or most of your koi and pi$$ off the rest of them!!---this product should never even be marketed for ponds with fish what-so-ever!!----good info dick--thanx---steve

rdm757
07-29-2007, 02:11 AM
There is just so much bad info out there, even from so-called pond professionals. When we first got our pond up and running we didn't yet have a UV and ended up with pea soup. Down to the local pond place we went looking for advice and of course we came home with a bottle of AlgaeFix. Being newbies we didn't know any better and we were just lucky we didn't lose any fish. On the other hand it did almost nothing for our algae problem either. Luckily I found Koiphen and was able to get real advice (like getting a UV) and have had crystal clear water ever since with no chemicals whatsoever.

Roddy Conrad
07-29-2007, 09:24 AM
There is just so much bad info out there, even from so-called pond professionals. When we first got our pond up and running we didn't yet have a UV and ended up with pea soup. Down to the local pond place we went looking for advice and of course we came home with a bottle of AlgaeFix. Being newbies we didn't know any better and we were just lucky we didn't lose any fish. On the other hand it did almost nothing for our algae problem either. Luckily I found Koiphen and was able to get real advice (like getting a UV) and have had crystal clear water ever since with no chemicals whatsoever.

Please note I did not quote any toxicity data for koi or carp or goldfish because I couldn't find any data on those fish species for the active ingredient in AlgaeFix. So the fact that the AlgaeFix does not always kill fish may be either a function of the kind of fish in the pond or that somehow the lifetime of the AlgaeFix in the specific pond is not long enough to kill fish. And, of course, that is how high doses of potassium permanganate or hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate can be used to safely kill algae, namely in an algae rich pond, none of these oxidizers last long enough to hurt the fish in reasonable doses.

There have been plenty of reports on message boards where the AlgaeFix did appear to kill the pond fish. My point from the known fish toxicity data is that there are better choices abundant and cheaper for pond algae control than AlgaeFix.

And, like said above, the best choice for green water algae is a good UV light for sure.

For stringy algae, you need either a better filter system, or more fish to eat the algae, or drop in some oxidizer (PP, HP, SP) to "get control".

Roddy Conrad
07-29-2007, 11:58 AM
I was asked separately to repeat the comments on the use of hydrogen peroxide to kill string algae. My comments on that subject versus the comments on AlgaeFix are:

If you use the standard 3% hydrogen peroxide from Walmart (or a drug store in the aisle where "blondes shop"), then use one to 5 quarts per 1000 gallons to kill string algae.

Since I listed the LC 50 values for AlgaeFix, it is only fair to also list them for hydrogen peroxide.

For examples from a long list of published LC 50 values for fish with hydrogen peroxide:

For bluegill a 96 hour LC 50 of 26 ppm.

For rainbow trout, a 2 hour LC 50 of 207 ppm and a 96 hour LC 50 of 22 ppm.

Please note that while the fish can tolerate 100 ppm hydrogen peroxide for a few hours, there must be something in the pond such as algae to consume a high dose of hydrogen peroxide to make it safe for the fish.

It takes 11 quarts of 3% hydrogen peroxide from Walmart per 1000 USA gallons to get a 100 ppm hydrogen peroxide dose. I am suggesting trying 10 to 100 ppm hydrogen peroxide doses (1 to 11 quarts of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 1000 USA gallons) to get rid of string algae, but please notice if there is nothing in the pond to consume the hydrogen peroxide at those dose levels, the fish may die in a day or so if the dose is more than 2 quarts per 1000 USA gallons. When the "bubbling action" stops, most of the peroxide is gone. And like I detailed in Koi Nation, there are paper strips to buy if you want to measure the active hydrogen peroxide dose in the pond with time and know if it is safe or not.

Just trying to be fair when comparing chemicals for algae control.

butch
07-29-2007, 12:08 PM
Algea fix is what i used when I first started andm pond went green I was so mad I wanted to see my fish. the guy at the fish store even said "be carefull with aANY chems you put in" he wanted me to wait said the green water wouldnt actually hurt my fish as long as they had enough O2. But i was having none of that. I killed 2 fish and turned my water grey. And STILL could not see my fish. I HATE CHEMICALS!!!
sorry just venting :D:

Joey S
07-29-2007, 12:35 PM
Algea fix is what i used when I first started andm pond went green I was so mad I wanted to see my fish. the guy at the fish store even said "be carefull with aANY chems you put in" he wanted me to wait said the green water wouldnt actually hurt my fish as long as they had enough O2. But i was having none of that. I killed 2 fish and turned my water grey. And STILL could not see my fish. I HATE CHEMICALS!!!
sorry just venting :D:No need to opologize for venting!! It's how others learn to avoid making a mistake. Chemicals have their place, but should always be used with knowledge and caution.

rdm757
07-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Please note I did not quote any toxicity data for koi or carp or goldfish because I couldn't find any data on those fish species for the active ingredient in AlgaeFix. So the fact that the AlgaeFix does not always kill fish may be either a function of the kind of fish in the pond or that somehow the lifetime of the AlgaeFix in the specific pond is not long enough to kill fish.

One other thing worth mentioning is that even if it didn't outright kill any fish doesn't mean it didn't harm them in some way. From what I've learned here I would NEVER use AlgaeFix again in any pond containing fish. Plus, like I said, it didn't clear my water anyway. There is just no reason that anyone should be using this stuff, especially considering that there are safer options available like hydrogen peroxide.

Thank you Roddy for the time you've spent researching this. Hopefully more and more people will realize the dangers and stay away from AlgaeFix!

Steve E.
07-30-2007, 02:56 PM
AlgaeFix has been around for some time now. In fact I myself apparently used it about 4 years ago and had forgotten that I had. Must not have made a huge impression on me at the time.

But forward to now. During a discussion at the recent AKCA seminar the subject of AlgaeFix was talked about. It was then that I first heard mention of Roddy’s posting of the LC50 information and someone also mentioned that aeration should be increased during its use. Shortly after my return from the seminar I have had several local club members talk up the virtues of using this product during meetings. Not knowing enough at the time to add to the discussion to the contrary I started to look for more information.

So far I have the following information:
1. LC50 values for three different species of fish.
2. It is the same product, in a lower concentration, used by commercial HVAC people in the maintenance of large Swamp type coolers.
3. That it uses up O2 such that supplemental air should be added while using the product.
4. That several individuals have reported problems with their fish or dead fish after using the product.

The information so far has raised a few questions for me:

1. Can we extrapolate the LC50 information given for the 3 species of fish to Koi/Carp?

2. Is AlgaeFix the exact same product (at a lower concentration) used by HVAC people or is it the active ingredient we are talking about?

3. Is there anything in the chemical make-up of the product that would cause it to require the addition of supplemental air to the pond with its use?

4. Would it be reasonable to assume that the reported problems fall with in the results that could be expected from using a compound with the LC50s as given?

Steve